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  • Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)
Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)

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Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Ackerson was army, even in the first version of the books.

Where the marines and navy are widespread, the army is more of a defense force from what I gather.
That would explain their presence at Sword Base.

  • 05.20.2011 7:37 PM PDT


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Ackerson was army, even in the first version of the books.

Where the marines and navy are widespread, the army is more of a defense force from what I gather.


That makes sense, so like the guys who would permanently be stationed planet side and man the military bases and such around the planet and possibly in orbit?

  • 05.20.2011 7:44 PM PDT


Posted by: MegaMuffin16
Posted by: OrderedComa
I'm not saying they'd come out and tell the truth (and it seems to be almost common knowledge how Reach fell), I'm merely pointing out/asking why start telling new lies that aren't maintaining or backing up old ones when the war is over and there's no more real need to.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall any media of Halo canon ever telling us that civilians knew how Reach fell (or at least know it well enough that they couldn't just say "oh no this is what really happened"). For all we know they want this to be what's in the history books, and so they'll educate children this way.

Sure, some marines may know. People may know the truth, but ONI doesn't care. ONI would just re educate (or educate) the entire new generation to believe this. Why? I don't know, but it sure as hell would fix all the canon errors in one big sweep. Perhaps it would be to give people the sense that even though humanity was brought so close to the end there was always hope. Re educating the populace is not as hard as it seems when the entire government of humanity is doing it.


I think Reach falling was pretty common knowledge, and most if not all people would have at least some idea as to how long it lasted. Especially in the military, heck probably the whole military would know the timeline of how long the battle was.

Why would they need to though? The war is over, there's no longer any need to keep the morale up for a war effort, there would just be no need to lie about the length of the battle.

And my more important question, why would member of ONI be lying to each other about the length of the timeline when they would both know how long it really was, that would just make the sender look stupid.

Would someone who has the Legendary Edition of the game mind posting the date and the exact wording of the communication between the two ONI officers that came with the Legendary Edition?

  • 05.20.2011 8:01 PM PDT

Look for the back

There shouldnt be rebels on Reach at all. I thought the whole planet was militarizes down to the Moa.

  • 05.20.2011 8:05 PM PDT

Don't worry, you're still your mom's favorite Bnet member.

Posted by: Sniper X 52
There shouldnt be rebels on Reach at all. I thought the whole planet was militarizes down to the Moa.
There were rebels on most colonies, it has been pre established that there were rebels on Reach as well.

  • 05.20.2011 8:48 PM PDT

Don't worry, you're still your mom's favorite Bnet member.

Posted by: OrderedComa
Would someone who has the Legendary Edition of the game mind posting the date and the exact wording of the communication between the two ONI officers that came with the Legendary Edition?

You are now in possession of the most complete and accurate account that anyone has been able to assemble of SPECWAR/GroupTHREE/NOBLE's actions during the final weeks before the Covenant glassed Reach.

I suspect your interest in all of this has something to do with your involvement in Operation: WHITE GLOVE. Coincidentally, Halsey made multiple inquiries about NOBLE just as everything started going all to hell. She's the one loose end that may never be wrapped up satisfactorily - no body, no closure. In any event, I secured the next best thing for you. Section 0 has had it for some time - so there's that - but I think you'll find enough intel in here for your purposes.

-W


<<TOP SECRET>>
These assets were recovered by ONI/SectionTHREE/Bfive personnel from SWORD base/Site ZERO prior to its destruction as part of Operation: WHITE GLOVE.

Public disclosure of these assets will gravely damage the security of the United Earth Government and all allied Colonies.

Security container inventory:

1. (TS) Interactive disc chronicling final operations of SPECWAR/GroupTHREE/NOBLE.

2. (TS) Dr. Catherine Elizabeth Halsey, journal, four (4) pages (two [2] leaves) excised from journal (content, date removed unknown).

3. (TS-C) One (1) DNA sequencing chart; BIOnano card (ref, S-117); single image photo of space anomaly; memo ref. Bliss "glassing"; memo ref Covenant/alien glyphs (incl. single-image photo); It goes on to list contents of the Legendary Edition, very minute

4. (CUI) Three Intersystem News kiosk tear sheets.

Classified by: (Unrecognized symbol)

Reason: OSA.II.A.3.d

Declassify on: INTERMINABLE


[Edited on 05.20.2011 9:02 PM PDT]

  • 05.20.2011 8:48 PM PDT


Posted by: Sniper X 52
There shouldnt be rebels on Reach at all. I thought the whole planet was militarizes down to the Moa.


Nope, there was a good portion of the planet which was wilderness.

  • 05.20.2011 8:58 PM PDT
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Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Ackerson was army, even in the first version of the books.

Where the marines and navy are widespread, the army is more of a defense force from what I gather.


That makes sense, so like the guys who would permanently be stationed planet side and man the military bases and such around the planet and possibly in orbit?

Yep. Theres an old interview floating around somewhere where Bungies canon guru (Robert Mclees or something) explained that the Army and Air Force are defensive branches who stay on colonies while the Navy and Marines are offensive and go where they are needed.

  • 05.20.2011 9:08 PM PDT

The books don't elucidate on that bit.

But the game tried to really hard to overstate the Insurrection's influence, which was bare minimal on Reach in the books, BECAUSE the Insurrection is based in the outer colonies.

Bungie failed to realize that Reach was a solid and loyal inner colony and that the Insurrection was mostly neutralized late into Human-Covenant war because the Covenant destroyed every Outer Colony, along with any rebel factions left out there that wasn't killed off by the UNSC.

And yet, somehow 26 years into the Human Covenant war, you still get jackasses pretending to be rebels, determined to bringing the only military force capable of defending humanity.Mind you, these are the same jerks that mindlessly considered selling away Earth's location to the Covenant, which also mind you, is 20 billion human souls these dicks didn't bother to care about.

[Edited on 05.20.2011 9:17 PM PDT]

  • 05.20.2011 9:10 PM PDT


Posted by: A Puzzled Mind
The books don't elucidate on that bit.

But the game tried to really hard to overstate the Insurrection's influence, which was bare minimal on Reach in the books, BECAUSE the Insurrection is based in the outer colonies.

Bungie failed to realize that Reach was a solid and loyal inner colony and that the Insurrection was mostly neutralized late into Human-Covenant war.

And yet, somehow 26 years into the Human Covenant war, you still get jackasses pretending to be rebels, determined to bringing the only military force capable of defending humanity.


Um, just because Reach was loyal does not, in ANY way, mean there were no rebels. They wouldn't have much of any influence, but they were there.

And, yep, the rebels continued to oppose the UNSC throughout the entire war.

  • 05.20.2011 9:18 PM PDT

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Um, just because Reach was loyal does not, in ANY way, mean there were no rebels. They wouldn't have much of any influence, but they were there.

And, yep, the rebels continued to oppose the UNSC throughout the entire war.

It wouldn't be hard to believe. Mounting any rebel attacks would require someone relatively close to the central command of the military power they are up against. Hence, rebels on Reach. Doubt they'd actively do anything though. Such a position would be too precious to throw away for something as simple as a basic raid.

  • 05.20.2011 9:32 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: A Puzzled Mind
The books don't elucidate on that bit.

But the game tried to really hard to overstate the Insurrection's influence, which was bare minimal on Reach in the books, BECAUSE the Insurrection is based in the outer colonies.

Bungie failed to realize that Reach was a solid and loyal inner colony and that the Insurrection was mostly neutralized late into Human-Covenant war because the Covenant destroyed every Outer Colony, along with any rebel factions left out there that wasn't killed off by the UNSC.

And yet, somehow 26 years into the Human Covenant war, you still get jackasses pretending to be rebels, determined to bringing the only military force capable of defending humanity.Mind you, these are the same jerks that mindlessly considered selling away Earth's location to the Covenant, which also mind you, is 20 billion human souls these dicks didn't bother to care about.

The United States has militant groups all over and it's a heavily militarized nation and every once in a while they do something. Why that would be so hard to believe that would eb the case on Reach given every military has it's fair share of traitors is beyond me.

[Edited on 05.21.2011 10:29 AM PDT]

  • 05.21.2011 10:25 AM PDT


Posted by: A Puzzled Mind
The books don't elucidate on that bit.

But the game tried to really hard to overstate the Insurrection's influence, which was bare minimal on Reach in the books, BECAUSE the Insurrection is based in the outer colonies.

Bungie failed to realize that Reach was a solid and loyal inner colony and that the Insurrection was mostly neutralized late into Human-Covenant war because the Covenant destroyed every Outer Colony, along with any rebel factions left out there that wasn't killed off by the UNSC.

And yet, somehow 26 years into the Human Covenant war, you still get jackasses pretending to be rebels, determined to bringing the only military force capable of defending humanity.Mind you, these are the same jerks that mindlessly considered selling away Earth's location to the Covenant, which also mind you, is 20 billion human souls these dicks didn't bother to care about.


There were Insurrectionists all throughout UNSC controlled space. And there have always been rebels operating around Reach, Contact Harvest makes a mention of it I believe. And I believe Reach is considered one of the outer colonies, I know it's not part of the core at least, that would be the planets and such in the Sol System. And also, people have been fleeing from and evacuating the Outer Colonies all throughout the war, members of the Insurrection would be no exception, they want to live too, and they'd set up shop on whatever planet they fled to, whether that be Earth, Reach, or anywhere else.

It doesn't matter what the loyalty of the planet is or how strong it is, the rebels will operate anywhere and everywhere, that's part of why they were so hard to eradicate.

  • 05.21.2011 11:35 AM PDT

"I may not be perfect, but always been true."

Although his superiors initially assured him they would find a better fit for him, Soren remains a paper pusher until he is sixteen. As his "temporary" position begins to feel more and more permanent, it becomes hard for Soren not to feel resentful. This makes the young SPARTAN particularly vulnerable to the ideas of a technician named Partch who begins feeding him ideas sympathetic to the Insurrection. Slowly and almost imperceptibly, Soren's views change until he finds himself on the side of the rebels.

After several months of hinting, Partch tells Soren that they are going to defect, but first they are going to obtain a "souvenir" for their cause. One night, the two break into a geological research lab, force open a locked cabinet and retrieve a small titanium case, however they are interrupted by Randall, another SPARTAN. Randall is justifiably suspicious of their explanations, and escorts them out of the lab so that he can verify that they are supposed to be there. As they leave the lab Soren attacks Randall, and as the two struggle Partch shoots Randall with a tranquilizer dart. Soren and Partch then flee the facility and commandeer a Longsword fighter which Partch has pre-prepared and hacked, complete with a dumb A.I. named Captain Teach whom Partch fast-grafted to convert him to their cause. Their plan to escape Reach fails, however, as they are pursued by other aircraft which sufficiently damage the Longsword to prevent it from breaking free of the planet's gravity. Captain Teach and the backup computer system are damaged or destroyed, forcing Soren to manually crash land the craft himself.


So, this pretty much states they were pro-Insurrection people working within Reach, case closed.

[Edited on 05.21.2011 1:17 PM PDT]

  • 05.21.2011 1:16 PM PDT


Posted by: RKOSNAKE
Although his superiors initially assured him they would find a better fit for him, Soren remains a paper pusher until he is sixteen. As his "temporary" position begins to feel more and more permanent, it becomes hard for Soren not to feel resentful. This makes the young SPARTAN particularly vulnerable to the ideas of a technician named Partch who begins feeding him ideas sympathetic to the Insurrection. Slowly and almost imperceptibly, Soren's views change until he finds himself on the side of the rebels.

After several months of hinting, Partch tells Soren that they are going to defect, but first they are going to obtain a "souvenir" for their cause. One night, the two break into a geological research lab, force open a locked cabinet and retrieve a small titanium case, however they are interrupted by Randall, another SPARTAN. Randall is justifiably suspicious of their explanations, and escorts them out of the lab so that he can verify that they are supposed to be there. As they leave the lab Soren attacks Randall, and as the two struggle Partch shoots Randall with a tranquilizer dart. Soren and Partch then flee the facility and commandeer a Longsword fighter which Partch has pre-prepared and hacked, complete with a dumb A.I. named Captain Teach whom Partch fast-grafted to convert him to their cause. Their plan to escape Reach fails, however, as they are pursued by other aircraft which sufficiently damage the Longsword to prevent it from breaking free of the planet's gravity. Captain Teach and the backup computer system are damaged or destroyed, forcing Soren to manually crash land the craft himself.


So, this pretty much states they were pro-Insurrection people working within Reach, case closed.


I'd forgotten about that one :P I'd have mentioned it too if I had remembered, lol.

  • 05.21.2011 2:06 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Error: Reach was invaded on July 24th.

Proof: All Halo media has always stated Reach fell in one day, and that day was August 30th.

Sources:Ghosts of Oynx, First Strike, Fall of Reach.


Technically, Reach didn't fall in a single day. The UNSC fleet was, ground engagements continued after the 30th. In Halo: Reach, this is still the case. Nothing has changed to state otherwise.

Error: Alpha Company was wiped out completely during Operation: PROMETHEUS in 2537. Carter, Emile, and Jun should not be alive.

Proof: Halo: Ghosts of Onyx goes into quite a bit of detail on Operation: PROMETHEUS. Spartan-III Alpha Company (comprised of 300 Spartans) were sent to K7-49 on a mission to destroy plasma reactors the Covenant were using to liquefy metallurgical components.

The operation was a success, but it is explicitly stated that it cost the lives of every Spartan-III on the asteroid because they got cut off from their Calypso-class Exfiltration crafts and completely lost their unit cohesion.

Halo Reach chooses to ignore this. Carter (A-259), Emile (A-239), and Jun (A-266) are a part of Noble Team when they should have been dead years ago; Bungie have given us no explanation on how they escaped at all.

Sources:
- Ghosts of Onyx, page 83-87.
- Halo Reach


A detail from Ghosts of Onyx has piqued my interest. 497 children are initially chosen to be Spartan-IIIs, but only 300 are chosen. I find it hard to believe ONI would allow these children to go back into public life and potentially blab about what happened to them. They also met the genetic parameters of the program. So we have 197 children left unaccounted for. Does this completely solve the problem? No. But it's still something worth noting.

This sounds like we have a few things, a "main" unit of Spartan-IIIs and a "secret" unit of Spartan-IIIs. Maybe this secret batch was used for the Headhunters and teams like Noble. Again, not saying this is the answer.


Error: ONI's actions as well as the Cole Protocol.

According to the Cole Protocol, if any Covenant Forces are detected, then all NAV bases and ships should purge their computers of information to protect Earth and the inner colonies.

Proof:If Covenant are detected on Reach on July 23rd, how is it that a month later, there are still computers with information to Earth still active? If ONI hadn't taken more than a month, than Blue team wouldn't have been deployed to the Circumference, and James wouldn't have died, and Linda wouldn't have been in a coma. Infact, they would have been on Reach with Red team.


Key information about Earth at places like SWORD Base probably were purged, but key info about relevant to the war, and Halsey's research, were probably left intact for the battle. With the Circumference, it may have arrived during the battle to scout and do recon, took damage and headed to Gamma Station for repairs, Cortana intrudes and Doppler is unable to initiate the Cole Protocol.

Error: Carter, Emile, and Jun's age.
Carter is born in 2520. He was 11 years old when Alpha Company began their training. This puts him 5 years above the previously stated age, and it makes no sense at all. Why would they have an 11 year old on the same training regime as a 4 year old? It's too large of a difference, and it's an error that can be avoiding by simply changing his birthdate. This same thing goes for Emile and Jun, who are older than 6 years old at Alpha training.

Proof: Page 69(I'm doing this by memory, I may be wrong.) of Ghosts of Oynx states that all of Alpha Company was comprised of 4, 5, and 6 year old children that he was going to have to forge into the best warriors humanity has ever seen.


On this I agree, at least about Carter. However, knowing someone like Ackerson, I doubt he would skimp out on someone Carter's age. He was the one who wanted to expand the number of children they could select knowing it could jeopardize the augmentation process and lead to more projected defects.

Not a solid answer, but one I don't dismiss.

Error: Lack of Orbital MAC's.

Proof: Reach had a number of Orbital MAC's that were used in the battle of Reach. They were present on August 30th, so they should have been present during the mission "Long Night of Solace" in Halo: Reach. Had they been present, they Jorge wouldn't have died. Where were they?

Source: Fall of Reach, First Strike, Halo: Reach


We just don't see them. Last I checked, the SMACs are in a formation, if this is the case, the Supercarrier wisely ignored them and remained out of their range. Even in the Fall of Reach, Covenant forces managed to land on the planet even when the SMACs were online. Seems like it would be easy to circumvent the SMACs.


Error: Pillar of Autumn on Reach.

Proof During the final level of Halo: Reach, the Pillar of Autumn is on the planet, and isn't in space, preparing for the Prophet mission. This COMPLETELY destroys much of Halo's canon. If the ship wasn't in space, than the Spartans of Red Team would have never jumped to the planet, meaning that the 4 spartans who died, would have still been alive. Which could have hanged the outcome of the battle. PLUS, the space op to destroy the Circumference's NAV data wouldn't have happened. So Chief, James, and Linda had no reason to NOT be part of Red team. So the chief wouldn't have been on the Autumn, so Halo: CE wouldn't have happened.

Why schedule a mission to capture a prophet, when there's a full scale invasion of Humanities second most important planet?


The way I see the Pillar of Autumn essentially being in three places at once is like so.

Operation: RED FLAG was put on hold for most of the battle, but initiated at the last minute. The Spartans, hinted to be already deployed at Reach in-game, meet and discuss the mission. Despite Reach being invaded, the UNSC believe sthey can push the Covenant back, probably with leftover confidence after doing so at Sigma Octanus. However, before the Autumn can jump the Fleet of Particular Justice arrives, I don't believe the fleet arriving after Long Night of Solace is the FOPJ, it is flooded with three Priority One hails, one from the MAC Generators, one from Halsey, and one from the AI at Gamma Station. RED FLAG is scrapped.

Red Team is deployed to Reach, Chief, James, and Linda are deployed to Gamma Station, and the Autumn goes to Aszod. Now we wonder how it lands, but all you have to do is look at the surroundings. That docking area looks like it was built to handle a Halcyon-class cruiser. The boosters could've been a last-minute addition provided by some string-pulling by Halsey.

Autumn takes off and picks up Chief. Initiate jump to Halo and done. The Autumn can land despite "not being rated for atmosphere", whatever that means, Cortana says so in Halo: Combat Evolved.

Again, this is not my final thoughts on the matter, but in my head this all brings the conflict of Reach together, despite it if you wish, but I stand by it.

  • 05.21.2011 6:16 PM PDT

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Technically, Reach didn't fall in a single day. The UNSC fleet was, ground engagements continued after the 30th. In Halo: Reach, this is still the case. Nothing has changed to state otherwise.

Losing a battle doesn't mean everyone dying. It means losing. Control of the planet was lost, practically all military presence destroyed. All that was left was small skirmishes in areas where the planet wasn't entirely glassed. That's still losing in a day.

A detail from Ghosts of Onyx has piqued my interest. 497 children are initially chosen to be Spartan-IIIs, but only 300 are chosen. I find it hard to believe ONI would allow these children to go back into public life and potentially blab about what happened to them. They also met the genetic parameters of the program. So we have 197 children left unaccounted for. Does this completely solve the problem? No. But it's still something worth noting.

This sounds like we have a few things, a "main" unit of Spartan-IIIs and a "secret" unit of Spartan-IIIs. Maybe this secret batch was used for the Headhunters and teams like Noble. Again, not saying this is the answer.

The Spartan III's knew there were only 300 slots. Tom states this during training that only 300 of them will pass and become augmented super-soldiers so even if your theory is true these leftovers were never augmented. At least not as part of Kurt's Spartan III program.

Key information about Earth at places like SWORD Base probably were purged, but key info about relevant to the war, and Halsey's research, were probably left intact for the battle. With the Circumference, it may have arrived during the battle to scout and do recon, took damage and headed to Gamma Station for repairs, Cortana intrudes and Doppler is unable to initiate the Cole Protocol.
That prowler had been erased from docking records by ONI. I doubt that it had just docked (in which case such an action would have been pointless). Secondly, it should have had quite some time to purge its information yet over the month for some odd reason no one knew it was there, even those on the darn station. Even if it had actually just docked and was doing whatever recon it should have been notified of the Covenant and purged its information immediately anyways.

We just don't see them. Last I checked, the SMACs are in a formation, if this is the case, the Supercarrier wisely ignored them and remained out of their range. Even in the Fall of Reach, Covenant forces managed to land on the planet even when the SMACs were online. Seems like it would be easy to circumvent the SMACs.
I doubt that 700 ships would have concentrated their efforts on one location enough to let the SMAC's group up. Second, Covenant ships would not "remain out of range". The Covenant at this time consider humanity inferior and made rash judgements in combat. Stupid ones even. This is why the UNSC was able to destroy more than 2/3 of their fleet. The reason the forces landed, however, was becuase the poles remained unprotected. They slipped several smaller craft in (craft that the SMAC's would be able to hit, which is why Red Team went to the surface in the first place).

The way I see the Pillar of Autumn essentially being in three places at once is like so.

Operation: RED FLAG was put on hold for most of the battle, but initiated at the last minute. The Spartans, hinted to be already deployed at Reach in-game, meet and discuss the mission. Despite Reach being invaded, the UNSC believe sthey can push the Covenant back, probably with leftover confidence after doing so at Sigma Octanus. However, before the Autumn can jump the Fleet of Particular Justice arrives, I don't believe the fleet arriving after Long Night of Solace is the FOPJ, it is flooded with three Priority One hails, one from the MAC Generators, one from Halsey, and one from the AI at Gamma Station. RED FLAG is scrapped.

Red Team is deployed to Reach, Chief, James, and Linda are deployed to Gamma Station, and the Autumn goes to Aszod. Now we wonder how it lands, but all you have to do is look at the surroundings. That docking area looks like it was built to handle a Halcyon-class cruiser. The boosters could've been a last-minute addition provided by some string-pulling by Halsey.

Autumn takes off and picks up Chief. Initiate jump to Halo and done. The Autumn can land despite "not being rated for atmosphere", whatever that means, Cortana says so in Halo: Combat Evolved.

Again, this is not my final thoughts on the matter, but in my head this all brings the conflict of Reach together, despite it if you wish, but I stand by it.

In the book, Operation RED FLAG was cancelled the moment that Reach was attacked. There is no reason to even TRY to underestimate a ship sneaking into Reach. Hell, what I really don't understand is how they got there and why they would sneak in anyway. The only reason the Covenant found Reach is because of a tracking device placed on a ship. So if the Covenant knew of the planet they would have immediately attacked in full force rather than losing the element of surprise for one single comm station.

  • 05.21.2011 7:22 PM PDT

"I may not be perfect, but always been true."

Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Technically, Reach didn't fall in a single day. The UNSC fleet was, ground engagements continued after the 30th. In Halo: Reach, this is still the case. Nothing has changed to state otherwise.

Losing a battle doesn't mean everyone dying. It means losing. Control of the planet was lost, practically all military presence destroyed. All that was left was small skirmishes in areas where the planet wasn't entirely glassed. That's still losing in a day.

A detail from Ghosts of Onyx has piqued my interest. 497 children are initially chosen to be Spartan-IIIs, but only 300 are chosen. I find it hard to believe ONI would allow these children to go back into public life and potentially blab about what happened to them. They also met the genetic parameters of the program. So we have 197 children left unaccounted for. Does this completely solve the problem? No. But it's still something worth noting.

This sounds like we have a few things, a "main" unit of Spartan-IIIs and a "secret" unit of Spartan-IIIs. Maybe this secret batch was used for the Headhunters and teams like Noble. Again, not saying this is the answer.

The Spartan III's knew there were only 300 slots. Tom states this during training that only 300 of them will pass and become augmented super-soldiers so even if your theory is true these leftovers were never augmented. At least not as part of Kurt's Spartan III program.


Spartan III's didn't knew about the existence of the Headhunter program, so the whole only 300 get the spot is wrong.

  • 05.21.2011 7:41 PM PDT

Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
The Spartan III's knew there were only 300 slots. Tom states this during training that only 300 of them will pass and become augmented super-soldiers so even if your theory is true these leftovers were never augmented. At least not as part of Kurt's Spartan III program.


Of course they'd know only that if that is all they're told. I don't think the other IIIs would ever learn if those who weren't chosen were ever augmented or not, seeing as they were deployed almost immediately after augmentation and none of them ever returned to Onyx except Tom and Lucy.

That prowler had been erased from docking records by ONI. I doubt that it had just docked (in which case such an action would have been pointless). Secondly, it should have had quite some time to purge its information yet over the month for some odd reason no one knew it was there, even those on the darn station. Even if it had actually just docked and was doing whatever recon it should have been notified of the Covenant and purged its information immediately anyways.

I see no reason why the workers or whatever on the station wouldn't assume that the Circumference hadn't had it's nav data wiped. I know I probably would have as it's the norm to erase everything. And we don't know when the Circumference got to Reach, there may very well have no longer been an imminent Covenant threat in the area when it got there and the nav data thus remained where it was.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Cole Protocol only initiated if the Covenant are able to seize the facility/vessel/etc. meaning like when going into an active war zone with Covenant forces or if they're on a direct course for your location such as the case with Fermion.

I doubt that 700 ships would have concentrated their efforts on one location enough to let the SMAC's group up. Second, Covenant ships would not "remain out of range". The Covenant at this time consider humanity inferior and made rash judgements in combat. Stupid ones even. This is why the UNSC was able to destroy more than 2/3 of their fleet. The reason the forces landed, however, was becuase the poles remained unprotected. They slipped several smaller craft in (craft that the SMAC's would be able to hit, which is why Red Team went to the surface in the first place).

Ok, first off, it's still only 314 ships in the Fleet of Particular Justice. And second, the SMACs were already in one location all together, they wouldn't be "grouping up" because they already were. The Supercarrier's purpose was to act as a mobile command center essentially, and it would not have engaged the SMACs all by itself with no back up to speak of whatsoever, it was fielding forces and acting on the defensive.

In the book, Operation RED FLAG was cancelled the moment that Reach was attacked. There is no reason to even TRY to underestimate a ship sneaking into Reach. Hell, what I really don't understand is how they got there and why they would sneak in anyway. The only reason the Covenant found Reach is because of a tracking device placed on a ship. So if the Covenant knew of the planet they would have immediately attacked in full force rather than losing the element of surprise for one single comm station.

Actually RED FLAG wasn't scrapped until Red Team and Blue Team went on their respective operations.

We don't know how they found Reach in the game, but I think it's obvious that they knew it was something much more significant than anything else they had encountered before, hence why they used stealth to sniff out the UNSC defenses and to commit acts of sabotage such as taking out Visegrad Relay to soften the UNSC up. They were also there to establish a presence and set things up for the rest of the invasion force that arrived on the 14th. And then when they were having too difficult a time the Covenant then sent in the Fleet of Particular Justice and that's when Reach received the final nail in its coffin.

  • 05.21.2011 9:42 PM PDT

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

Posted by: RKOSNAKE
Spartan III's didn't knew about the existence of the Headhunter program, so the whole only 300 get the spot is wrong.

Tell that to Tom then, cause its printed in the book as clear as day.

Posted by: OrderedComa
Of course they'd know only that if that is all they're told. I don't think the other IIIs would ever learn if those who weren't chosen were ever augmented or not, seeing as they were deployed almost immediately after augmentation and none of them ever returned to Onyx except Tom and Lucy.

They were all augmented together and from the book it seems these candidates were thinned out over time. They would know who and who didn't make the cut. Sure, some of these "failures" we'll call them could have been grabbed by a seperate sub-program for the Headhunters but from what the book states the Headhunters and Noble were not part of Kurt's 300 in either Alpha or Beta company.

Posted by: OrderedComa
I see no reason why the workers or whatever on the station wouldn't assume that the Circumference hadn't had it's nav data wiped. I know I probably would have as it's the norm to erase everything. And we don't know when the Circumference got to Reach, there may very well have no longer been an imminent Covenant threat in the area when it got there and the nav data thus remained where it was.

Knowing when it got there wasn't necessarily important until the timeline changed but as of now since no time of arrival is given the logical assumption would be that it has been there since the battle started at least. And "in the area" doesn't really mean "it can shoot me". It probably means something along the lines of in-system where they can easily come into contact.

Posted by: OrderedComa
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Cole Protocol only initiated if the Covenant are able to seize the facility/vessel/etc. meaning like when going into an active war zone with Covenant forces or if they're on a direct course for your location such as the case with Fermion.

All of the ships in the UNSC fleet should have wiped their data banks of anything relating to Earth just before any major engagement and the moment they learned that the Covenant found Reach they probably would have done the same. This just means wiping anything that can guide the Covenant to Earth, which is minimal information at best.

The actual article:
To safeguard and protect the Inner Colonies and Earth, all UNSC vessels or stations must not be captured with intact navigation databases that may lead Covenant forces to human civilian population centers.
If any Covenant forces are detected:
1. Activate selective purge of databases on all ship-based and planetary data networks.
2. Initiate triple-screen check to ensure all data has been erased and all backups neutralized.
3. Execute viral data scavengers (Download from UNSCTTP://EPWW:COLEPROTOCOL/Virtualscav/fbr.091)
4. If retreating from Covenant forces, all ships must enter Slipstream space with randomized vectors NOT directed toward Earth, the Inner Colonies, or any other human population center.
5. In case of imminent capture by Covenant forces and boarders, all UNSC ships MUST self-destruct.
Violation of this directive will be considered an act of TREASON and pursuant to UNSC Military law articles JAG 845-P and JAG 7556-L, such violations are punishable by life imprisonment or execution.

Ok, first off, it's still only 314 ships in the Fleet of Particular Justice. And second, the SMACs were already in one location all together, they wouldn't be "grouping up" because they already were. The Supercarrier's purpose was to act as a mobile command center essentially, and it would not have engaged the SMACs all by itself with no back up to speak of whatsoever, it was fielding forces and acting on the defensive.
I don't know WHY you would group them up. You can't defend a position with all your guns pointing in one direction. Not in space, anyway. That's the equivalent of having a battleship that can only shoot to its left. Second, the ship should have been taken down fairly quickly. It was ONE SHIP and I'm pretty sure over the course of several days the SMAC's could have been repositioned.

Actually RED FLAG wasn't scrapped until Red Team and Blue Team went on their respective operations.
I;m pretty sure when the Autumn was recalled from the edge of the system to defend Reach that RED FLAG was basically cancelled.

We don't know how they found Reach in the game, but I think it's obvious that they knew it was something much more significant than anything else they had encountered before, hence why they used stealth to sniff out the UNSC defenses and to commit acts of sabotage such as taking out Visegrad Relay to soften the UNSC up. They were also there to establish a presence and set things up for the rest of the invasion force that arrived on the 14th. And then when they were having too difficult a time the Covenant then sent in the Fleet of Particular Justice and that's when Reach received the final nail in its coffin.
The Covenant doesn't sabotage. The Covenant knew little about how humanity operated anyways. On top of that, they thought of them as an infestation. I don't see why the Covenant would take so many precautions against an enemy they thought of as no better than dirt. The only ones who knew any better were the Prophets and even then giving such orders would hint at them acknowledging the competence of the human race which is the last thing they wanted to do. You could even say that it was the Prophets rash behavior that allowed the UNSC to fight back as much as it did.

  • 05.22.2011 12:08 PM PDT

sorry if this has already been asked about but I didn't feel like skimming through 88 or so pages to find out. How did the Banshees,Seraphs, and Phantoms go through slipspace in LNOS? I have found this to be unexplainable and if anyone can clarify and make me feel like an idiot it would be greatly appreciated.

  • 05.22.2011 12:16 PM PDT


Posted by: immadchill
sorry if this has already been asked about but I didn't feel like skimming through 88 or so pages to find out. How did the Banshees,Seraphs, and Phantoms go through slipspace in LNOS? I have found this to be unexplainable and if anyone can clarify and make me feel like an idiot it would be greatly appreciated.


They didn't come out of slipspace. Anchor Nine mentions impulse drives.

  • 05.22.2011 12:20 PM PDT

Thanks haha I should listen more closely next time.

[Edited on 05.22.2011 12:58 PM PDT]

  • 05.22.2011 12:23 PM PDT

"Before Operation: PROMETHEUS however, Kurt and Mendez hand-picked an unknown number of candidates that stood out from the rest and removed them from the company, assigning them to other units. They were also issued with more advanced equipment such as MJOLNIR armor to make their battlefield prowess comparable to that of the SPARTAN-IIs. These individuals included Emile-A239, Carter-A259 and Jun-A266, but their overall number is unknown. These Spartans also later served in a special operations unit known as Noble Team, along with candidates originally removed from Beta Company"-Halopedia page on Alpha company

[Edited on 05.22.2011 1:03 PM PDT]

  • 05.22.2011 1:00 PM PDT

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

Posted by: immadchill
"Before Operation: PROMETHEUS however, Kurt and Mendez hand-picked an unknown number of candidates that stood out from the rest and removed them from the company, assigning them to other units. They were also issued with more advanced equipment such as MJOLNIR armor to make their battlefield prowess comparable to that of the SPARTAN-IIs. These individuals included Emile-A239, Carter-A259 and Jun-A266, but their overall number is unknown. These Spartans also later served in a special operations unit known as Noble Team, along with candidates originally removed from Beta Company"-Halopedia page on Alpha company

Halopedia is fan written so this could be a fan's interpretation of how Noble came about. Still, my question is: were they augmented separate from the other III's making the number difference irrelevant? Or were they augmented with the III's and the previous numbers now require change?

  • 05.22.2011 2:02 PM PDT