Bungie Universe
This topic has moved here: Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)
  • Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)
Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

Member of Bungie.net for nearly three years, still continuing!

Enjoy what you have and live on.

My gamertag is Elder Bias


Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: raganok99

Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: Spartan1065
Posted by: GingerBenj
books suck, reading is lame.

games rock, games are...game?

bungie created halo and its story, eric nylund didnt.

id say about 60% of the reach gamers have heard of the books but not necessarily read them. ultimately they dont care.

99.9% of the xbox live community is unable to read because they are to young.

therefor bungie have the right to make a kick ass game that screws a few of the books ideas.

problem solved :)
My God what is happening to the Universe.


I'm going to assume by the lack of edit in the OP no one has come up with any more compelling reasons to believe that there are not glaring errors in Reach's canon since the last time I participated in the discussion in this thread. Reasons of course that weren't thought of and shot down within the first couple months of this debate starting.

Would I be correct in assuming that? I don't feel like flicking through 90+ pages of mostly the same incorrect arguments that say Reach did not break canon.


People have brought up many valid points against or explaining most if not all of Caboose's so called errors.

And Reach did not break canon, and you shouldn't claim it did because none of us has seen the complete picture (aka the Halo Story Bible). Other than what Bungie or 343i tells us about canon we know nothing of what is true or not, and Bungie has said that Reach and TFoR match, now 343i may change things, but I very highly doubt that is going to happen, so like it or not Reach is canon and does not break canon.


Sorry to burst your bubbles, but it did break the canon :) It conflicts the Fall of Reach, First Strike and Ghosts of Onyx.

As I have been reading arguments bought up by those few people like you have been defending Halo: Reach so fiercely, is basic same argument as before in early pages of this topic to now.

And, I understand that some valid points has been proved but it has little effect to none to the errors in the canon of Reach. I am sorry but there is many, probably majority of people at bungie.net seem to disagree with you and those guys. (general assumption)


A conflict does not equal a canon breach, it merely means we haven't seen the connection yet, or the older information has been retconned. Such an example of the latter would be the Elites, Brutes, and Hunters, TFoR and First Strike say they weren't encountered until 2552, yet that is not the case because the older information does not make sense and needed to be changed.

And actually no, Reach really only conflicts with TFoR, Halsey's Journal and the marketing materials released with Reach patch up the issues with First Strike and Ghosts of Onyx.


Sorry, but you're wrong.

Halsey's Journal and marketing material has fixed VERY little the errors of Halo Reach. And marketing material is rated as third, according to canon "rules". Game being first and novels being second in canon "rules". Market material does not override the canon.

There's some content in the game is canon-breaking such as wrong timeline, PoA being on ground which it is impossible due to massive weight and consider about laws of physics applied to it too. And Halycon-class cruisers or Marathon-Class cruisers or larger ships ARE NOT rated for atmosphere. You may argue that PoA went on Halo but it was not case. They were forced to land down since they suffered massive damage from fighting against battle-group of CCS battle-cruisers.

Spartan-IIIs were fine with me for now.

And it does "conflict" the novels of The Fall of Reach, First Strike and little bit of Ghost of Onyx.

Some things in Reach can be simply retconned, but others can't be retconned so simply, it would require to re-write novels.

[Edited on 06.02.2011 1:17 PM PDT]

  • 06.02.2011 1:14 PM PDT

I always thought the PoA used some special prototype landing gear. And I don't see why Captain Keyes didn't just go down on a pelican and then go back to the PoA. Also, why are there dead S-III's everywhere in lone wolf? That makes no sense to me.

  • 06.02.2011 1:34 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Posted by: Spartan1065
I have played Halo Reach. I have read the novels. I think that it has broken several things about the already established canon. I spent a while looking through the thread, I have seen your so called good arguments and I do not really buy any of them.

OrderedComa
I remember a long time ago a month or two after Reach was released you made a thread to counter this one about how Reach didn't break canon. We had a debate for a few pages and I distinctly remember shooting down all of your excuses. Just sayin.


Most of the "shooting down" of theories I've seen has been ignoring/not actually looking at them.

Just sayin.

To be honest though, I have not really seen a good explanation for the SMAC problem.

  • 06.02.2011 1:53 PM PDT

If you can read this, that means I'm not a Shaolin monk...

yet.


Posted by: Wazooty
Although this sort of effects other things, the only really major change in TFOR is that the battle needs to last 2 weeks instead of 1 day. Noble team was busy fighting off the scouting party while the spartan-IIs were preparing to go on their war ending mission (perhaps operation red flag was conducted as a direct result of the covenant discovering reach). But just as the scout ship is destroyed by noble team, and just as the POA is preparing to go on its mission, the fleet of particular justice arrives to lay waste to the planet and recover the artifact that the scout team discovered.

On August 15th, Blue team conducts the mission aboard gamma station, while Red team heads down to reaches surface.

After completing the gamma station mission, blue team heads down to the planets surface to continue the fight. Having the battle spread out over 2 weeks means of course that we can't have all the spartan-IIs die at the same times they do in TFOR, but rather their deaths are more spread out over the 2 week period.

Dr Halsey and Cortana are intently researching the artifact that the covenant are looking for. Upon discovering what the artifact is, Halsey has Keyes land the POA to pick up the remaining spartans along with the package in order to go on a new mission.

Master chief is ultimately the only member of blue team to make it to the POA alive. Communication is completely cut and red team is believed to be completely wiped out.




In my own personal version master chief and linda would both be alive, defending the POAs dock, awaiting noble team and red team to rendezvous. They attempt to hold out in the hopes that red team will make it (again, communication is cut), but they are getting overwhelmed and a covenant cruiser is coming to destroy the ship. Linda gets "killed" here instead of aboard gamma station. They are forced to leave lest they get overwhelmed. Noble six decides that he will stay behind and take the gun, letting chief live to fight another day.

We didn't see a snigle Elite from the Fleet of particular Justice.

  • 06.02.2011 2:26 PM PDT

If you can read this, that means I'm not a Shaolin monk...

yet.


Posted by: immadchill
I always thought the PoA used some special prototype landing gear. And I don't see why Captain Keyes didn't just go down on a pelican and then go back to the PoA. Also, why are there dead S-III's everywhere in lone wolf? That makes no sense to me.

I've said this before, but no one seems to acknowledge it:

After a few months of friendly chit-chat with Jason Jones I asked him if the dead spartans were where Bungie employees died during playtesting and the Spartans had their armor. His answer was "No comment". To me, that's confirmation considering he's not a secluded douche. You may interpret it differently, though.

Besides, it can't be S-II's or S-III's.

III's with MJOLNIR?
II's with customization?

  • 06.02.2011 2:30 PM PDT

If you can read this, that means I'm not a Shaolin monk...

yet.


Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Posted by: Spartan1065
I have played Halo Reach. I have read the novels. I think that it has broken several things about the already established canon. I spent a while looking through the thread, I have seen your so called good arguments and I do not really buy any of them.

OrderedComa
I remember a long time ago a month or two after Reach was released you made a thread to counter this one about how Reach didn't break canon. We had a debate for a few pages and I distinctly remember shooting down all of your excuses. Just sayin.


Most of the "shooting down" of theories I've seen has been ignoring/not actually looking at them.

Just sayin.

To be honest though, I have not really seen a good explanation for the SMAC problem.

That's because we'd have to throw a few buckets of logic out of the window in order for an explanation on that.

  • 06.02.2011 2:31 PM PDT

"What do you hear?"
"Nothing but the rain."
"Then grab your gun and bring in the cat."
"Boom, boom, boom!"

Posted by: tsassi2
This whole thing just doesn't work because of these. The Fall of Reach very clearly states that there was only half an hour from Blue Team deplying to Gamma Station to Pillar of Autumn jumping into slipspace. There is no way Pillar of Autumn could drop Blue Team to Gamma Station, land on Reach, retrieve Cortanas fragment, take off from Reach and then travel to the edge of Epsilon Eridani just in thirty minutes.


One thing I can agree with. That thought in logic never works. There's about...a ten hour gap between the Gamma Station run and the final level of Reach. By that time, the station would be in ruins and we wouldn't have the trilogy, nor would Linda be alive for FS and GoO.

Way I played with it was this. Events in the book still happen as normal. As the PoA is getting ready to jump out of system, Halsey sends Keyes a message telling him to pick up the fragment. Then the final level plays out.

That's how I see it at least. I'm still tweaking with the time-line a bit.

Posted by: tsassi2
It also sounds illogical that the Spartans are uninformed about a Covenant invasion for over a month. And fifteen days even after Covenant attacking at full force. Halsey was basically sipping coffee inside Castle Base, totally uninformed while Reach is under full invasion.


I bet they were pretty active when the first fleet jumped in on the 14th. We know Red was assisting with civilian evac during the 23rd.

  • 06.02.2011 3:04 PM PDT

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

Posted by: kit_103
I bet they were pretty active when the first fleet jumped in on the 14th. We know Red was assisting with civilian evac during the 23rd.

So how in god's name do they get to the PoA if they're on the surface already? Why would they need to hot-drop them?

  • 06.02.2011 3:07 PM PDT

Funny thing, the new Definitive Edition didn't change to fit the game. It's the same, but they finally fixed the typos and some inconsistencies with the Covenant troops never being known about until 2552 (Hunters and Elites).


  • 06.02.2011 3:08 PM PDT

If you can read this, that means I'm not a Shaolin monk...

yet.


Posted by: GrnDragn
Funny thing, the new Definitive Edition didn't change to fit the game. It's the same, but they finally fixed the typos and some inconsistencies with the Covenant troops never being known about until 2552 (Hunters and Elites).



That's because they're (hopefully) going to declare this "Halo": Reach non-canon.

  • 06.02.2011 3:21 PM PDT

"What do you hear?"
"Nothing but the rain."
"Then grab your gun and bring in the cat."
"Boom, boom, boom!"

Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
Posted by: kit_103
I bet they were pretty active when the first fleet jumped in on the 14th. We know Red was assisting with civilian evac during the 23rd.

So how in god's name do they get to the PoA if they're on the surface already? Why would they need to hot-drop them?


Logical explanation that works for everybody? I have no frakking clue lol.

Though the way I see it is that the UNSC had the Covenant threat under control to an extent, pretty much keeping them quarantined in the Eposz continent. Once the UNSC felt comfortable enough that they could retake the region, the SPARTANs were briefed on RED FLAG and let go so they could pursue the mission. Then the hot-drop happens on the 30th like normal.

We know that drop still happens though.

Posted by: GrnDragn
Funny thing, the new Definitive Edition didn't change to fit the game. It's the same, but they finally fixed the typos and some inconsistencies with the Covenant troops never being known about until 2552 (Hunters and Elites).


Yeah. I think a member from 343 actually confirmed that over on the Waypoint forums a few weeks back. Fixes the typos and adds the "Definitive Edition" so it could fit in with the rest of the books. No major changes were planned.

  • 06.02.2011 3:22 PM PDT


Posted by: TheGreenAlloy

Posted by: GrnDragn
Funny thing, the new Definitive Edition didn't change to fit the game. It's the same, but they finally fixed the typos and some inconsistencies with the Covenant troops never being known about until 2552 (Hunters and Elites).



That's because they're (hopefully) going to declare this "Halo": Reach non-canon.


We can only hope. Technically speaking, Bungie lost the rights to Halo back in 2007 I believe it was? So, Reach being Canon is up to 343i/Microsoft.

  • 06.02.2011 3:23 PM PDT

If you can read this, that means I'm not a Shaolin monk...

yet.


Posted by: GrnDragn

Posted by: TheGreenAlloy

Posted by: GrnDragn
Funny thing, the new Definitive Edition didn't change to fit the game. It's the same, but they finally fixed the typos and some inconsistencies with the Covenant troops never being known about until 2552 (Hunters and Elites).



That's because they're (hopefully) going to declare this "Halo": Reach non-canon.


We can only hope. Technically speaking, Bungie lost the rights to Halo back in 2007 I believe it was? So, Reach being Canon is up to 343i/Microsoft.

As is every other piece of the Halo cake.

[Edited on 06.03.2011 3:03 AM PDT]

  • 06.02.2011 3:40 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

The way I see Red Team is like this. They were evacuating civilians on then get recalled to the RED FLAG briefing. AT this time, the Covenant presence on Reach probably wasn't as severe as it was going to get on the 30th, the SMACs were still operational and I believe the book says that as long as the SMACs were running Reach would be safe.

RED FLAG is initiated, Red Team boards the Autumn, but before they can leave, the generators are about to be overrun because The Fleet of Particular Justice just arrived and sent a fresh wave of troops. Hot drop occurs and there you go. That's just me though.

  • 06.02.2011 3:50 PM PDT

If you can read this, that means I'm not a Shaolin monk...

yet.


Posted by: DecepticonCobra
The way I see Red Team is like this. They were evacuating civilians on then get recalled to the RED FLAG briefing. AT this time, the Covenant presence on Reach probably wasn't as severe as it was going to get on the 30th, the SMACs were still operational and I believe the book says that as long as the SMACs were running Reach would be safe.

RED FLAG is initiated, Red Team boards the Autumn, but before they can leave, the generators are about to be overrun because The Fleet of Particular Justice just arrived and sent a fresh wave of troops. Hot drop occurs and there you go. That's just me though.

Fresh wave of troops? Not a single Elite from FoPJ was encountered by Noble Six.

  • 06.02.2011 4:47 PM PDT


Posted by: TheGreenAlloy

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
The way I see Red Team is like this. They were evacuating civilians on then get recalled to the RED FLAG briefing. AT this time, the Covenant presence on Reach probably wasn't as severe as it was going to get on the 30th, the SMACs were still operational and I believe the book says that as long as the SMACs were running Reach would be safe.

RED FLAG is initiated, Red Team boards the Autumn, but before they can leave, the generators are about to be overrun because The Fleet of Particular Justice just arrived and sent a fresh wave of troops. Hot drop occurs and there you go. That's just me though.

Fresh wave of troops? Not a single Elite from FoPJ was encountered by Noble Six.


Why do you say that? For all we know the elites in the PoA mission could be from the Fleet of Particular Justice.

  • 06.02.2011 4:49 PM PDT

If you can read this, that means I'm not a Shaolin monk...

yet.


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: TheGreenAlloy

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
The way I see Red Team is like this. They were evacuating civilians on then get recalled to the RED FLAG briefing. AT this time, the Covenant presence on Reach probably wasn't as severe as it was going to get on the 30th, the SMACs were still operational and I believe the book says that as long as the SMACs were running Reach would be safe.

RED FLAG is initiated, Red Team boards the Autumn, but before they can leave, the generators are about to be overrun because The Fleet of Particular Justice just arrived and sent a fresh wave of troops. Hot drop occurs and there you go. That's just me though.

Fresh wave of troops? Not a single Elite from FoPJ was encountered by Noble Six.


Why do you say that? For all we know the elites in the PoA mission could be from the Fleet of Particular Justice.

Explain their armor and weaponry, then.

  • 06.02.2011 5:30 PM PDT

Graphical updates. Things thought up after Halo CE came to be.

  • 06.02.2011 5:33 PM PDT

If you can read this, that means I'm not a Shaolin monk...

yet.


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Graphical updates. Things thought up after Halo CE came to be.

It's more likely that different fleets have different combat harnesses. Explain the new colours for the ranks. Graphical updates, that too?

  • 06.03.2011 2:45 AM PDT

Brains beats brawn get used to it

Fear the Red Comet

Variety is the spice of life.
Long live games.
Death to all fanboys.


Posted by: TheGreenAlloy

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Graphical updates. Things thought up after Halo CE came to be.

It's more likely that different fleets have different combat harnesses. Explain the new colours for the ranks. Graphical updates, that too?


Graphical updates still work perfectly fine as a reason.

The only two ranks that had a color swap were Generals and Zealots. Now titles for the highest ranking elites are expanded upon and are no longer all just gold for generals, field marshals, and zealots. A needed change considering that there was nothing to differentiate these ranks (not to mention ship master) as all were previously mentioned to don gold armor. Even then, the color swap is hardly off considering the role of gold General elites being ranking commanders that wield powerful weaponry against the player (particularly the sword) still stays the same.

Minors are still blue.
Majors are still red.
Ultras are still white.
Generals are now clearly gold.
Zealots are now clearly maroon.
Field Marshalls are now clearly maroon with different armor configuration.

There is nothing that currently exists in canon to suggest that different fleets have different armor for their troops.

  • 06.03.2011 2:57 AM PDT

If you can read this, that means I'm not a Shaolin monk...

yet.


Posted by: StealthSlasher2

Posted by: TheGreenAlloy

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Graphical updates. Things thought up after Halo CE came to be.

It's more likely that different fleets have different combat harnesses. Explain the new colours for the ranks. Graphical updates, that too?


Graphical updates still work perfectly fine as a reason.

The only two ranks that had a color swap were Generals and Zealots. Now titles for the highest ranking elites are expanded upon and are no longer all just gold for generals, field marshals, and zealots. A needed change considering that there was nothing to differentiate these ranks (not to mention ship master) as all were previously mentioned to don gold armor. Even then, the color swap is hardly off considering the role of gold General elites being ranking commanders that wield powerful weaponry against the player (particularly the sword) still stays the same.

Minors are still blue.
Majors are still red.
Ultras are still white.
Generals are now clearly gold.
Zealots are now clearly maroon.
Field Marshalls are now clearly maroon with different armor configuration.

There is nothing that currently exists in canon to suggest that different fleets have different armor for their troops.

Alright then, antoher contradiction.

  • 06.03.2011 3:05 AM PDT


Posted by: TheGreenAlloy

Posted by: StealthSlasher2

Posted by: TheGreenAlloy

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Graphical updates. Things thought up after Halo CE came to be.

It's more likely that different fleets have different combat harnesses. Explain the new colours for the ranks. Graphical updates, that too?


Graphical updates still work perfectly fine as a reason.

The only two ranks that had a color swap were Generals and Zealots. Now titles for the highest ranking elites are expanded upon and are no longer all just gold for generals, field marshals, and zealots. A needed change considering that there was nothing to differentiate these ranks (not to mention ship master) as all were previously mentioned to don gold armor. Even then, the color swap is hardly off considering the role of gold General elites being ranking commanders that wield powerful weaponry against the player (particularly the sword) still stays the same.

Minors are still blue.
Majors are still red.
Ultras are still white.
Generals are now clearly gold.
Zealots are now clearly maroon.
Field Marshalls are now clearly maroon with different armor configuration.

There is nothing that currently exists in canon to suggest that different fleets have different armor for their troops.

Alright then, antoher contradiction.


no...thats a graphical update

  • 06.03.2011 4:52 PM PDT


Posted by: TheGreenAlloy

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
The way I see Red Team is like this. They were evacuating civilians on then get recalled to the RED FLAG briefing. AT this time, the Covenant presence on Reach probably wasn't as severe as it was going to get on the 30th, the SMACs were still operational and I believe the book says that as long as the SMACs were running Reach would be safe.

RED FLAG is initiated, Red Team boards the Autumn, but before they can leave, the generators are about to be overrun because The Fleet of Particular Justice just arrived and sent a fresh wave of troops. Hot drop occurs and there you go. That's just me though.

Fresh wave of troops? Not a single Elite from FoPJ was encountered by Noble Six.


Um what does Noble Six have to do with what Cobra just said? I believe Cobra was talking strictly about Red Team and the defense of the ODP generators. And I don't think you can say with certainly whether Six fought any forces from the Fleet of Particular Justice or not.

  • 06.03.2011 4:56 PM PDT

I don't think Alloy likes Reach. But when you think about it, Reach isn't that bad.

  • 06.03.2011 6:15 PM PDT

If you can read this, that means I'm not a Shaolin monk...

yet.


Posted by: immadchill

Posted by: TheGreenAlloy

Posted by: StealthSlasher2

Posted by: TheGreenAlloy

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Graphical updates. Things thought up after Halo CE came to be.

It's more likely that different fleets have different combat harnesses. Explain the new colours for the ranks. Graphical updates, that too?


Graphical updates still work perfectly fine as a reason.

The only two ranks that had a color swap were Generals and Zealots. Now titles for the highest ranking elites are expanded upon and are no longer all just gold for generals, field marshals, and zealots. A needed change considering that there was nothing to differentiate these ranks (not to mention ship master) as all were previously mentioned to don gold armor. Even then, the color swap is hardly off considering the role of gold General elites being ranking commanders that wield powerful weaponry against the player (particularly the sword) still stays the same.

Minors are still blue.
Majors are still red.
Ultras are still white.
Generals are now clearly gold.
Zealots are now clearly maroon.
Field Marshalls are now clearly maroon with different armor configuration.

There is nothing that currently exists in canon to suggest that different fleets have different armor for their troops.

Alright then, antoher contradiction.


no...thats a graphical update

The armour, too?

  • 06.03.2011 6:26 PM PDT