Bungie Universe
This topic has moved here: Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)
  • Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)
Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
But did it come out before the game campaign was finished being written?

Either way, Fall of Reach used the very, very first version of the Halo Bible. So much stuff has been added to it since then.

And these things matter how?

  • 06.09.2011 11:22 AM PDT


Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
But did it come out before the game campaign was finished being written?

Either way, Fall of Reach used the very, very first version of the Halo Bible. So much stuff has been added to it since then.

And these things matter how?


Let's see, Reach's original battle was drafted with the VERY first version of the story bible, back when Bungie was just making the universe.

Obviously, that means when they add more information and think more items out, they would go back and treat the battle to the same thing, as by comparison it didn't have as much planning.

  • 06.09.2011 11:25 AM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
But did it come out before the game campaign was finished being written?

Either way, Fall of Reach used the very, very first version of the Halo Bible. So much stuff has been added to it since then.

And these things matter how?

Let's see, Reach's original battle was drafted with the VERY first version of the story bible, back when Bungie was just making the universe.

Obviously, that means when they add more information and think more items out, they would go back and treat the battle to the same thing, as by comparison it didn't have as much planning.

What is wrong with TFoR?

Obviously we have to criticise the actual story rather than use the circumstances of when it was written.

  • 06.09.2011 11:32 AM PDT
  • gamertag: Moirai
  • user homepage:

Posted by: anton1792
Firstly, transport the slipspace bomb to the Corvette.

....



What I would like to know is how the corvette even got to the supercarrier with its engines shot out. That always struck me as a major flaw in the whole 'let's take out the supercarrier' plan.

  • 06.09.2011 11:53 AM PDT


Posted by: anton1792
What is wrong with TFoR?

Obviously we have to criticise the actual story rather than use the circumstances of when it was written.


Okay.

A: Enemy dropships were deployed, and launched to the poles. Large numbers of them were destroyed in route.
B: Those same dropships some manage to deploy large enough forces to overrun UNSC command and the generator complexes, within a few hours. That means they somehow regrouped and figured out what they had, and teleported to those sites instantly to fit in the 2-3 hour timeframe.
C: UNSC Air force (all those skyhawks?) sat in bases doing nothing to stop the dropships, or be a pain in the ass.
D: UNSC typically won ground battles, yet in fortified, well defended (Or at least they should have been), they get utterly destroyed insanely quick, especially considering how many dropships were lost and the Covenant would not have any true heavy armor support (Scarabs?)
E: UNSC AA batteries don't exist across the planet it seems.
F: Not sure if it's true, but I heard a number (from a book defender no less) that it'd take a Spirit 7 hours to fly from the pole to the equator. If that is true, then how did they overrun high com and the generators within 2-3?

That's what I have right now for the battle at least. Looking back it seems the UNSC was tactically retarded, bar the Covenant losing a massive chunk of their dropship forces and magically regrouping instantly and deploying despite speed limitations...

Posted by: Moirai
Posted by: anton1792
Firstly, transport the slipspace bomb to the Corvette.

....



What I would like to know is how the corvette even got to the supercarrier with its engines shot out. That always struck me as a major flaw in the whole 'let's take out the supercarrier' plan.



Um... space.

It doesn't magically stop because it's engines are damaged, they would keep going.

And for the final boost, thrusters.

[Edited on 06.09.2011 12:15 PM PDT]

  • 06.09.2011 12:13 PM PDT

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Let's see, Reach's original battle was drafted with the VERY first version of the story bible, back when Bungie was just making the universe.

Obviously, that means when they add more information and think more items out, they would go back and treat the battle to the same thing, as by comparison it didn't have as much planning.

So why wait 10 years to change it all in one drastic motion rather than easily smooth it out over time. Hell, this still doesn't explain the recent re-publication of the original version of the story.

  • 06.09.2011 12:14 PM PDT


Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Let's see, Reach's original battle was drafted with the VERY first version of the story bible, back when Bungie was just making the universe.

Obviously, that means when they add more information and think more items out, they would go back and treat the battle to the same thing, as by comparison it didn't have as much planning.

So why wait 10 years to change it all in one drastic motion rather than easily smooth it out over time. Hell, this still doesn't explain the recent re-publication of the original version of the story.


How would they change bits of the battle over time?

Also, if memory is right, the Space battle is mainly unchanged for the 30th, which is what the book covered.

I remember hearing they changed Halsey's line to reference the covenant were present prior to the 30th, and only arrived in full force that day.

  • 06.09.2011 12:17 PM PDT

Our big green style, cannot be defeated!
-Sgt. A.J. Johnson - Halo 2 - Metropolis

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
Posted by: Atom Alchemist
and i've read every book, and halo comic barring cryptum, but i know that the game canon comes first at all times.

True, but that doesn't forgive the games for disregarding established canon, even if it was book canon.


But if the book was written in a month...
Writing a book within a month is actually a long time. Bungie already came up with the synopsis, so they just needed someone to completely write the book. Anyone who read the original first 3 books, before Halo 2 came out, agrees that the books override the game canon. Those who don't are obviously blind fanboys.

  • 06.09.2011 12:32 PM PDT
  • gamertag: Moirai
  • user homepage:

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Posted by: Moirai
What I would like to know is how the corvette even got to the supercarrier with its engines shot out. That always struck me as a major flaw in the whole 'let's take out the supercarrier' plan.



Um... space.

It doesn't magically stop because it's engines are damaged, they would keep going.

And for the final boost, thrusters.


Thrusters... You just made that up. Go on, admit it. :P

Besides, it would be terribly convenient if the corvette just happened to be pointing in exactly the right direction to reach the 'so far away to be out of sight' supercarrier.

And that's not even touching on the...why are all the Covies on the bridge of the Corvette all wandering around aimlessly as if they haven't a care in the world when their engines have just been shot out and they've been boarded by humans...? First thing I would have done is alert the supercarrier to the attack, not do the Covie equivalent of sitting around playing cards.

Unfortunately that part of the story, as much fun as it is to play, relies way too heavily on suspension of disbelief to uphold any sensible storyline.

  • 06.09.2011 12:34 PM PDT

Our big green style, cannot be defeated!
-Sgt. A.J. Johnson - Halo 2 - Metropolis

Posted by: Moirai
Posted by: anton1792
Firstly, transport the slipspace bomb to the Corvette.

....



What I would like to know is how the corvette even got to the supercarrier with its engines shot out. That always struck me as a major flaw in the whole 'let's take out the supercarrier' plan.

I hated the campaign for Reach, but anyway, Colonol Holland says, "Take out the main engines". So if those were the main engines, there must have been some other minor engines to move the ship. He also says you need to do that to slow it down.

  • 06.09.2011 12:36 PM PDT

Our big green style, cannot be defeated!
-Sgt. A.J. Johnson - Halo 2 - Metropolis

Posted by: Moirai
Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Posted by: Moirai
What I would like to know is how the corvette even got to the supercarrier with its engines shot out. That always struck me as a major flaw in the whole 'let's take out the supercarrier' plan.



Um... space.

It doesn't magically stop because it's engines are damaged, they would keep going.

And for the final boost, thrusters.


Thrusters... You just made that up. Go on, admit it. :P

Besides, it would be terribly convenient if the corvette just happened to be pointing in exactly the right direction to reach the 'so far away to be out of sight' supercarrier.

And that's not even touching on the...why are all the Covies on the bridge of the Corvette all wandering around aimlessly as if they haven't a care in the world when their engines have just been shot out and they've been boarded by humans...? First thing I would have done is alert the supercarrier to the attack, not do the Covie equivalent of sitting around playing cards.

Unfortunately that part of the story, as much fun as it is to play, relies way too heavily on suspension of disbelief to uphold any sensible storyline.
Yo, I hate it when people do that. They make -blam!- up & all their stupid ass theories.

  • 06.09.2011 12:37 PM PDT


Posted by: xecnalxes117
Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
Posted by: Atom Alchemist
and i've read every book, and halo comic barring cryptum, but i know that the game canon comes first at all times.

True, but that doesn't forgive the games for disregarding established canon, even if it was book canon.


But if the book was written in a month...
Writing a book within a month is actually a long time. Bungie already came up with the synopsis, so they just needed someone to completely write the book. Anyone who read the original first 3 books, before Halo 2 came out, agrees that the books override the game canon. Those who don't are obviously blind fanboys.


Nah, you see, I follow the rules of canon set by Bungie, WHEN Fall of reach and CE came out.

To ignore it means you are just a picky ass who goes "I don't like this, it must be non-canon!"


Posted by: Moirai
Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Posted by: Moirai
What I would like to know is how the corvette even got to the supercarrier with its engines shot out. That always struck me as a major flaw in the whole 'let's take out the supercarrier' plan.



Um... space.

It doesn't magically stop because it's engines are damaged, they would keep going.

And for the final boost, thrusters.


Thrusters... You just made that up. Go on, admit it. :P

Besides, it would be terribly convenient if the corvette just happened to be pointing in exactly the right direction to reach the 'so far away to be out of sight' supercarrier.


Actually, thrusters are a common thing on any sci-fi spaceship. Without thrusters, they cannot maneuver.

Also, when you are in the space area around the Corvette, you can see the super-carrier in the distance. As it was flying toward it in the first place to refuel, I don't see why that's so odd...

  • 06.09.2011 12:38 PM PDT
  • gamertag: Moirai
  • user homepage:

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Posted by: Moirai
Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Posted by: Moirai
What I would like to know is how the corvette even got to the supercarrier with its engines shot out. That always struck me as a major flaw in the whole 'let's take out the supercarrier' plan.



Um... space.

It doesn't magically stop because it's engines are damaged, they would keep going.

And for the final boost, thrusters.


Thrusters... You just made that up. Go on, admit it. :P

Besides, it would be terribly convenient if the corvette just happened to be pointing in exactly the right direction to reach the 'so far away to be out of sight' supercarrier.


Actually, thrusters are a common thing on any sci-fi spaceship. Without thrusters, they cannot maneuver.

Also, when you are in the space area around the Corvette, you can see the super-carrier in the distance. As it was flying toward it in the first place to refuel, I don't see why that's so odd...


:) I was just being lighthearted on the 'thrusters' point, since to leave it to the player to imagine some other form of propulsion exists is just lazy story telling. Especially since just a couple of extra lines of dialogue would have covered any issues related to the 'engines damaged, how do we get there' point.

However, no, the corvette wasn't already on a refuelling approach. You, the player, put it on one once you had boarded and reached the bridge.

My problem is that it seems inconceivable that you can have a fairly major dust up with a Covie corvette and that the supercarrier is neither alerted by the corvette or detects anything of this space battle itself.

I admit that I hadn't noticed the supercarrier in the distance before, so thanks for pointing that out. However that makes it even worse since they would have to be seriously incompetent not to notice the corvette being attacked or the destruction of the UNSC frigate given they were in line of sight of what was going on.

  • 06.09.2011 1:16 PM PDT

My two thoughts on it are this.

A: Far enough the Supercarrier (if they looked out) couldn't see either ship.
B: After the frigate was destroyed (If they detected it) they went "All clear."

Really, the refueling run would be using thrusters to maneuver the ship into place :P.

  • 06.09.2011 1:19 PM PDT
  • gamertag: Moirai
  • user homepage:

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
My two thoughts on it are this.

A: Far enough the Supercarrier (if they looked out) couldn't see either ship.
B: After the frigate was destroyed (If they detected it) they went "All clear."

Really, the refueling run would be using thrusters to maneuver the ship into place :P.


*chuckles*

Okay. Without boring everyone to death on this point, I'll leave it with...I would have to agree with Carter. Kat's plan was 'insane', not 'inspired', and relied on a ridiculous amount of blind luck to work.

  • 06.09.2011 1:42 PM PDT


Posted by: Moirai
Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
My two thoughts on it are this.

A: Far enough the Supercarrier (if they looked out) couldn't see either ship.
B: After the frigate was destroyed (If they detected it) they went "All clear."

Really, the refueling run would be using thrusters to maneuver the ship into place :P.


*chuckles*

Okay. Without boring everyone to death on this point, I'll leave it with...I would have to agree with Carter. Kat's plan was 'insane', not 'inspired', and relied on a ridiculous amount of blind luck to work.


True true, was less costly then a frontly attack by the fleet either way. :D.

  • 06.09.2011 1:44 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Posted by: anton1792
What is wrong with TFoR?

Obviously we have to criticise the actual story rather than use the circumstances of when it was written.


Okay.

A: Enemy dropships were deployed, and launched to the poles. Large numbers of them were destroyed in route.
B: Those same dropships some manage to deploy large enough forces to overrun UNSC command and the generator complexes, within a few hours. That means they somehow regrouped and figured out what they had, and teleported to those sites instantly to fit in the 2-3 hour timeframe.
C: UNSC Air force (all those skyhawks?) sat in bases doing nothing to stop the dropships, or be a pain in the ass.
D: UNSC typically won ground battles, yet in fortified, well defended (Or at least they should have been), they get utterly destroyed insanely quick, especially considering how many dropships were lost and the Covenant would not have any true heavy armor support (Scarabs?)
E: UNSC AA batteries don't exist across the planet it seems.
F: Not sure if it's true, but I heard a number (from a book defender no less) that it'd take a Spirit 7 hours to fly from the pole to the equator. If that is true, then how did they overrun high com and the generators within 2-3?

That's what I have right now for the battle at least. Looking back it seems the UNSC was tactically retarded, bar the Covenant losing a massive chunk of their dropship forces and magically regrouping instantly and deploying despite speed limitations...

I'll give you the first part, I am not sure how the remaining dropships got that many forces to their destinations in that time frame. The middle and end bits can be explained though I think. They are not really contingent on any ground forces.

The UNSC was quite retarded in that battle I would have to agree. Admiral Whitcomb, a navy commander and not a General, ordered an air assault that killed almost all of the Charlie Company marines, as well as the initial waves of Covenant. That left the generator complex almost without any defenders. Then the Spartans show up. The 6 wounded ones were sent to defend a fall back zone near the generator complex. 6 went elsewhere to attack a Covenant camp and find Whitcomb. The rest (5 I think?) went to defend the generators.

In space, 7 SMACs were slagged in the space battle opening up a hole in the defences. Through this, Covenant vessels slipped in. A Covenant Cruiser glassed the hell out of the generator complex and its remaining defenders. It wasn't a ground battle at that point... Even with the SMACs firing to the last one, I think Reach would still have fallen. Ships began getting through as more of them were slagged. When that cruiser wrecked the generator complex the remaining guns fell silent.

Although for the first bit, there was a cruiser setting up a beachhead for attacking the generators. Dropships were not exactly required afterwards.

  • 06.09.2011 1:54 PM PDT

Brains beats brawn get used to it

Fear the Red Comet

Variety is the spice of life.
Long live games.
Death to all fanboys.


Posted by: anton1792
In space, 7 SMACs were slagged in the space battle opening up a hole in the defences. Through this, Covenant vessels slipped in. A Covenant Cruiser glassed the hell out of the generator complex and its remaining defenders. It wasn't a ground battle at that point... Even with the SMACs firing to the last one, I think Reach would still have fallen. Ships began getting through as more of them were slagged. When that cruiser wrecked the generator complex the remaining guns fell silent.



I'd say that even with all the SMACs operational Reach would've still fallen. There were simply not enough supporting ships to attack the Covenant vessels and defend Reach even after all damage inflicted to the Covie fleet by static defenses. If they wanted, they could have probably bum rushed the guns and the UNSC fleet and reached (no pun intended) the surface of the planet with little hassle much like Regret's two carriers would do at Earth. Though on a much, much larger scale. Reach was the Alamo all over again.

  • 06.09.2011 2:04 PM PDT

It doesn't really matter if Bungie followed what the books say or not because Bungie made the game! What they say, not the books, is canon. If there is some sort of conflict, it is the books problem, even though they all came out before Halo: Reach. Bungie made the game therefore what they say happens supersedes what the books say happen. It would have been nice if they complimented each other, but they didn't, so, even though the books came out BEFORE Halo: Reach, I would say they are wrong, as it is ultimately Bungie's decision as to what is canon and what isn't.

  • 06.09.2011 3:07 PM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

Member of Bungie.net for nearly three years, still continuing!

Enjoy what you have and live on.

My gamertag is Elder Bias


Posted by: xecnalxes117
Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
Posted by: Atom Alchemist
and i've read every book, and halo comic barring cryptum, but i know that the game canon comes first at all times.

True, but that doesn't forgive the games for disregarding established canon, even if it was book canon.


But if the book was written in a month...
Writing a book within a month is actually a long time. Bungie already came up with the synopsis, so they just needed someone to completely write the book. Anyone who read the original first 3 books, before Halo 2 came out, agrees that the books override the game canon. Those who don't are obviously blind fanboys.


This!

As the rules of canon may be present but still, book canon should be top priority as game canon. If it is bad canon, then good canon can override it. Good example of bad canon is Halo Reach. It should be trumped by tFOR.

  • 06.09.2011 6:09 PM PDT

I decided to do another playthrough of Reach today and found yet another error. In WC when your on that dark room and the Zealot runs in everybody complains about the dark despite their genetically augmented eyes.

  • 06.09.2011 9:58 PM PDT

The Forerunner, the Great Journey, and Heaven Theory

[Announcement Trailer] Halo: Forerunner

Posted by: Agustus
I lol'd at the absurd miscommunication that occurs whenever dibbs post something. Perhaps his brain is so highly evolved that he can no longer clearly communicate with lesser life forms, even among his own species.

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

A: Enemy dropships were deployed, and launched to the poles. Large numbers of them were destroyed in route.
B: Those same dropships some manage to deploy large enough forces to overrun UNSC command and the generator complexes, within a few hours. That means they somehow regrouped and figured out what they had, and teleported to those sites instantly to fit in the 2-3 hour timeframe.
C: UNSC Air force (all those skyhawks?) sat in bases doing nothing to stop the dropships, or be a pain in the ass.
D: UNSC typically won ground battles, yet in fortified, well defended (Or at least they should have been), they get utterly destroyed insanely quick, especially considering how many dropships were lost and the Covenant would not have any true heavy armor support (Scarabs?)
E: UNSC AA batteries don't exist across the planet it seems.
F: Not sure if it's true, but I heard a number (from a book defender no less) that it'd take a Spirit 7 hours to fly from the pole to the equator. If that is true, then how did they overrun high com and the generators within 2-3?
[/quote]

What I would like to know is how the corvette even got to the supercarrier with its engines shot out. That always struck me as a major flaw in the whole 'let's take out the supercarrier' plan.
I see you mentioning the above points a lot, but I don't know if you have all of the information. The space battle for Reach went something like this...

Around 700 Covenant ships show up facing off against ~300 human ships, 3 refit and repair stations, and 20 MACS. First salvo is by the Covenant, they wipe out the R&R station which were used as shields, no UNSC ships are lost. Second salvo is UNSC which destroy a third of the Covenant forces. Third salvo the Covenant obliterate most the UNSC ships and 1/4 of the MAC guns (you also have the Supercrusier picking of human ships in one shot). They then move on to taking out the other MACS by jumping between them and the planet (which can be taken offline by being destroyed in much the same way they can be taken offline by blowing up the ground side generators) while simultaneously launching thousands of dropships which head towards the poles. The rest of the ships begin finishing off the rest of the UNSC fleet. It's been a while since I read the book, but I'm pretty sure the MACs were just assaulted and destroyed directly in space. From there you have Covenant ships free to bombard the planet and the UNSC losing in a matter of hours seems more feasible.

  • 06.09.2011 10:15 PM PDT

"I may not be perfect, but always been true."


Posted by: immadchill
I decided to do another playthrough of Reach today and found yet another error. In WC when your on that dark room and the Zealot runs in everybody complains about the dark despite their genetically augmented eyes.


Wait, what? I don't remember hearing anybody complain about the dark.

And same could be said for pretty much all the Halo games then, what use do a Spartan has for a flash light if he/she can watch in the dark?

  • 06.09.2011 10:20 PM PDT

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
How would they change bits of the battle over time?

Seeing as they have re-published the books several times now they could have done so easily with each iteration.

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Also, if memory is right, the Space battle is mainly unchanged for the 30th, which is what the book covered.

Yeah, but that isn't the issue here. The issue is that what happens in the game makes no sense in relation to what happens in the book. Even if events remain unchanged the events don't match up! Did you mysteriously forget the other 90 pages of this thread or what?

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
I remember hearing they changed Halsey's line to reference the covenant were present prior to the 30th, and only arrived in full force that day.

I don't think they changed that part to that extent, although I have not purchased it. If I recall the only real corrections in the book were date/time fixes.


Posted by: INLINE JOSH
Okay i wont deny the fact Fall of Reach was before Halo Reach, but my point is, in 'general' since Combat Evolved, so any story following (or prequel in this case) in a new game is considered the appropriate canon.

We aren't denying that. What we are saying is that Reach is making things difficult. It disregards established canonical elements and expects us to turn our heads and ignore the glaring problems merely because "game > book". That's an EXCUSE, not a reason.

Posted by: INLINE JOSH
An example would be if they made a book of halo 2, which was completely different to the halo 2 game and lets say the ending had chief arrive at the ark in that book, this would then make halo 3 not make sense since Master chief only just arrived at earth on the dreadnought at that point, people would just class the halo 2 game as the canon.

Bit confusing but think about it and im sure you'll understand.

Your example is flawed. Even if the book for Halo 2 contained more story line within it than the game did (for example, The Flood which does EXACTLY THAT) as long as the story within it is consistent with established book and game canon there is nothing wrong.

Now if the dates were changed, the length of Halo 2 altered and made to happen in 24 hours or something ridiculous (would be comparable to the current extension of the Reach battle from 1 day to two months) then yeah there would be a problem. But merely containing existing story under a title that portion of the story wasn't originally branded with doesn't make it a canon error.

  • 06.09.2011 10:47 PM PDT