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  • Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)
Subject: Unexplainable errors in the Halo canon. (Spoilers)
  • gamertag: Moirai
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Sorry, I missed your comments before, xecnalxes117. Apologies.


Posted by: xecnalxes117
Posted by: Moirai
Posted by: anton1792
Firstly, transport the slipspace bomb to the Corvette.

....



What I would like to know is how the corvette even got to the supercarrier with its engines shot out. That always struck me as a major flaw in the whole 'let's take out the supercarrier' plan.

I hated the campaign for Reach, but anyway, Colonol Holland says, "Take out the main engines". So if those were the main engines, there must have been some other minor engines to move the ship. He also says you need to do that to slow it down.


Yes, you're quite right. :)

That said, this whole section is essentially gameplay driven with a touch of story added on. I can't but help imagine that firing a whole load of high explosives into their main engines would have been catastrophic to the corvettes entire rear propulsion systems. It wasn't exactly a surgical strike.

Posted by: xecnalxes117
Posted by: Moirai
Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Posted by: Moirai
What I would like to know is how the corvette even got to the supercarrier with its engines shot out. That always struck me as a major flaw in the whole 'let's take out the supercarrier' plan.



Um... space.

It doesn't magically stop because it's engines are damaged, they would keep going.

And for the final boost, thrusters.


Thrusters... You just made that up. Go on, admit it. :P

Besides, it would be terribly convenient if the corvette just happened to be pointing in exactly the right direction to reach the 'so far away to be out of sight' supercarrier.

And that's not even touching on the...why are all the Covies on the bridge of the Corvette all wandering around aimlessly as if they haven't a care in the world when their engines have just been shot out and they've been boarded by humans...? First thing I would have done is alert the supercarrier to the attack, not do the Covie equivalent of sitting around playing cards.

Unfortunately that part of the story, as much fun as it is to play, relies way too heavily on suspension of disbelief to uphold any sensible storyline.
Yo, I hate it when people do that. They make -blam!- up & all their stupid ass theories.


This bit will always bug me. Again, it really is gameplay driven, not story driven. For the whole plan to work it relies on either:

a) A complete failure of all Covenant communications equipment between the Corvette and the Supercarrier.
b) A complete failure of protocol and brains in both Covie ships to utilise any comms to either inform the Supercarrier of the attack or to ask the Corvette why they are refuelling ahead of any scheduled arrangement.

However, I guess this is technically off topic since it's a logic issue entirely within the game Reach and not a clash of canon between game and book. So I'll just shut up now. :P

Anyway, thanks for both your correction and your input. Appreciated.

  • 06.10.2011 12:10 AM PDT

Moirai, the Savannah was jamming all the Corvette's communications until Six + marine pilots got in and killed everybody that was still alive in the comm room.

  • 06.10.2011 12:31 AM PDT

"I may not be perfect, but always been true."


Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Let's see, Reach's original battle was drafted with the VERY first version of the story bible, back when Bungie was just making the universe.

Obviously, that means when they add more information and think more items out, they would go back and treat the battle to the same thing, as by comparison it didn't have as much planning.

So why wait 10 years to change it all in one drastic motion rather than easily smooth it out over time. Hell, this still doesn't explain the recent re-publication of the original version of the story.


If I remember correctly, there's a plate in ODST that matches the dates of the Fall of Reach (event not book) with the ones in the game.

  • 06.10.2011 12:41 AM PDT

"What do you hear?"
"Nothing but the rain."
"Then grab your gun and bring in the cat."
"Boom, boom, boom!"

Posted by: RKOSNAKE
If I remember correctly, there's a plate in ODST that matches the dates of the Fall of Reach (event not book) with the ones in the game.


You remember correctly.

  • 06.10.2011 1:09 AM PDT

Vad!

i guess the halo games only vividly represent the real story.

  • 06.10.2011 1:46 AM PDT
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You will notice that if you use google to find info on specific spartans, that some of the spartans that apparently died in the story line secretly stayed alive. Some were drafted to other teams, and others for different mission.

  • 06.10.2011 2:36 AM PDT
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Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Moirai, the Savannah was jamming all the Corvette's communications until Six + marine pilots got in and killed everybody that was still alive in the comm room.


I don't personally remember anyone in game stating that what you pass through is a 'comms room', but since I don't have the game loaded, I'll give you that. ;)

However, the notion that Covenant vessels have no intership comms on their bridges is, quite frankly, way too much of a stretch of imagination. And that's ignoring the fact that the supercarrier would have had its suspicions seriously raised by a damaged vessel with non Covenant craft on top of it approaching them out of schedule and not replying to any hails. If I'd been the Covie supercarrier commander, I'd have blown it out of the sky just to be safe.

No disrespect, but I think you're trying to make too many excuses on Bungie's behalf.

  • 06.10.2011 7:17 AM PDT

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien


Posted by: INLINE JOSH
Okay i know what your trying to say, but im not sure you get me.

I'll try explain again aha.

Lets say, Halo 2 had a book released before the game, which had extremely different events to the main game, such as, anything like meeting a forerunner, killing arbitur, or maybe the ending was even with chief dying.

Now lets say the game 'Halo 2' we have today is exactly how it is, ends with chief crashlanding to earth.

If there was no book to 'Halo 3', and the 'Halo 3' game was then released and continued with Chief crashlanding to earth.

Since there is no book, people would assume the 'Halo 2' game is the canon since the book never had any continuation and made the next game 'Halo 3' make no sense.

I'm pretty sure that players would be irritated with the inconsistency of the book and game. Once Halo 3 was out they would be annoyed with the lack of correction brought to the Halo 2 book. Fortunately, though, Bungie was clever enough to make the books happen seperate of the games therefore avoiding a large number of possible conflicts via author discretion. Reach is the only game to be created after a book in the Halo series. And it completely failed at respecting that book and several other books.

In your example Halo 2 and Halo 3 would be destroying one piece of canon (but the fact Halo 3 clarifies the canon in your example already makes it a better situation than the current one), currently we have a single game conflicting with four pieces of canon (Fall of Reach, The Flood, First Strike and Ghosts of Onyx).

  • 06.10.2011 12:45 PM PDT

I also recall that the spartan 3s didn't have MJOLNIR armor. they had SPI armor, which didn't have shields.

  • 06.10.2011 12:55 PM PDT

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien


Posted by: CollinPritch
I also recall that the spartan 3s didn't have MJOLNIR armor. they had SPI armor, which didn't have shields.

The idea is that they were given MJOLNIR as a part of Noble, but to me that defeats the entire purpose of saving money with the III's. The most expensive part of the II's was their armor and the whole point of the Spartan III's was to make cost effective super soldiers in massive quantities.

  • 06.10.2011 1:48 PM PDT


Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K

Posted by: CollinPritch
I also recall that the spartan 3s didn't have MJOLNIR armor. they had SPI armor, which didn't have shields.

The idea is that they were given MJOLNIR as a part of Noble, but to me that defeats the entire purpose of saving money with the III's. The most expensive part of the II's was their armor and the whole point of the Spartan III's was to make cost effective super soldiers in massive quantities.


But giving MJOLNIR to select few (aka, the couple squads) is different then outfitting every S3 with it.

  • 06.10.2011 1:55 PM PDT

Brains beats brawn get used to it

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Variety is the spice of life.
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Posted by: kit_103
Posted by: RKOSNAKE
If I remember correctly, there's a plate in ODST that matches the dates of the Fall of Reach (event not book) with the ones in the game.


You remember correctly.


It's surprising not a lot of people caught the date stamp this prior to Halo Reach coming out, and questioning why the time period was stretched out like that then. I certainly didn't till now.

  • 06.10.2011 2:04 PM PDT

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
The idea is that they were given MJOLNIR as a part of Noble, but to me that defeats the entire purpose of saving money with the III's. The most expensive part of the II's was their armor and the whole point of the Spartan III's was to make cost effective super soldiers in massive quantities.[/quote]

But giving MJOLNIR to select few (aka, the couple squads) is different then outfitting every S3 with it.

Why not just make more II's then? That's what I mean by defeating the purpose of III's. If they wanted more MJOLNIR soldiers then they might as well just used the newer augmentation methods to make more Spartan II's. If the original Spartan II program made them rethink their funding with just 75 Spartans and their armor, then what about a 5 man squad of III's with around 2-3 replacements (so around 8 MJOLNIR suits)? Thats a small fortune seeing as that is another 1/10 of what they spent for the III's.

Lets use all that extra money from the complex suits to train more spartans faster and then we can spend even MORE money on top of that to give a select few the armor we were trying to cut out of the equation in the first place! Sounds wonderful right?

[Edited on 06.10.2011 3:00 PM PDT]

  • 06.10.2011 2:58 PM PDT
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John117 is Galactus
Galactus is God


Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K

Posted by: CollinPritch
I also recall that the spartan 3s didn't have MJOLNIR armor. they had SPI armor, which didn't have shields.

The idea is that they were given MJOLNIR as a part of Noble, but to me that defeats the entire purpose of saving money with the III's. The most expensive part of the II's was their armor and the whole point of the Spartan III's was to make cost effective super soldiers in massive quantities.


I see what you're saying and if you treated the story line like it was real and gave it some economic standards you'de be completely right.. but maybe bungie/343 decided.. dude.. why are we giving the suits in this science fiction story economic value as if it was real life? And they decided to give them Mjolnir suits. In the original story MC wasn't even supposed to be wearing the suit he is now or before. Think about it lol

  • 06.10.2011 4:02 PM PDT
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Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
The idea is that they were given MJOLNIR as a part of Noble, but to me that defeats the entire purpose of saving money with the III's. The most expensive part of the II's was their armor and the whole point of the Spartan III's was to make cost effective super soldiers in massive quantities.[/quote]

But giving MJOLNIR to select few (aka, the couple squads) is different then outfitting every S3 with it.

Why not just make more II's then? That's what I mean by defeating the purpose of III's. If they wanted more MJOLNIR soldiers then they might as well just used the newer augmentation methods to make more Spartan II's. If the original Spartan II program made them rethink their funding with just 75 Spartans and their armor, then what about a 5 man squad of III's with around 2-3 replacements (so around 8 MJOLNIR suits)? Thats a small fortune seeing as that is another 1/10 of what they spent for the III's.

Lets use all that extra money from the complex suits to train more spartans faster and then we can spend even MORE money on top of that to give a select few the armor we were trying to cut out of the equation in the first place! Sounds wonderful right?


spartans 2 were selected by their genetic markers as well as upbringing, they were then trained from a very young age until 16-17 and then given their augments, spartan threes on the other hands were choosen for their simple hatred of the covenant, still from a young age, but they were trained only for a few years before given their augments at around 13-14, then they were sent in as basically kamekaze forces.


spartans two are just plain up better than spartan threes, but spartans threes are way way better then any odst sqoud, so yea.

also, to build a single mjolnir armour it costs as much to build a entire unsc frigate.

  • 06.10.2011 4:10 PM PDT
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what the hell are you smoking? mjolnir was devolopeds specifically for the spartans, if mc wasn't s'posed to be wearing it, than who else would? because a normal human would kill themselves trying to operate it.
Posted by: Monitor117

Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K

Posted by: CollinPritch
I also recall that the spartan 3s didn't have MJOLNIR armor. they had SPI armor, which didn't have shields.

The idea is that they were given MJOLNIR as a part of Noble, but to me that defeats the entire purpose of saving money with the III's. The most expensive part of the II's was their armor and the whole point of the Spartan III's was to make cost effective super soldiers in massive quantities.


I see what you're saying and if you treated the story line like it was real and gave it some economic standards you'de be completely right.. but maybe bungie/343 decided.. dude.. why are we giving the suits in this science fiction story economic value as if it was real life? And they decided to give them Mjolnir suits. In the original story MC wasn't even supposed to be wearing the suit he is now or before. Think about it lol

  • 06.10.2011 4:12 PM PDT

If you can read this, that means I'm not a Shaolin monk...

yet.

Why did the Covvies on the bridge just wander about when a Spartan and some marines/army rangers were clearly blasting their way in?

  • 06.10.2011 4:25 PM PDT

"I may not be perfect, but always been true."


Posted by: Atom Alchemist

Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
The idea is that they were given MJOLNIR as a part of Noble, but to me that defeats the entire purpose of saving money with the III's. The most expensive part of the II's was their armor and the whole point of the Spartan III's was to make cost effective super soldiers in massive quantities.[/quote]

But giving MJOLNIR to select few (aka, the couple squads) is different then outfitting every S3 with it.

Why not just make more II's then? That's what I mean by defeating the purpose of III's. If they wanted more MJOLNIR soldiers then they might as well just used the newer augmentation methods to make more Spartan II's. If the original Spartan II program made them rethink their funding with just 75 Spartans and their armor, then what about a 5 man squad of III's with around 2-3 replacements (so around 8 MJOLNIR suits)? Thats a small fortune seeing as that is another 1/10 of what they spent for the III's.

Lets use all that extra money from the complex suits to train more spartans faster and then we can spend even MORE money on top of that to give a select few the armor we were trying to cut out of the equation in the first place! Sounds wonderful right?


spartans 2 were selected by their genetic markers as well as upbringing, they were then trained from a very young age until 16-17 and then given their augments, spartan threes on the other hands were choosen for their simple hatred of the covenant, still from a young age, but they were trained only for a few years before given their augments at around 13-14, then they were sent in as basically kamekaze forces.


spartans two are just plain up better than spartan threes, but spartans threes are way way better then any odst sqoud, so yea.

also, to build a single mjolnir armour it costs as much to build a entire unsc frigate.


Hahahaha, sorry I just can't take you seriously.

SPARTAN II's were chosen by their genetic markers, yes, they were abducted at the age of six and replaced by flash clones who died shortly after. They were trained until the age of fourteen, then they received the augmentations which killed/cripple more than half of them, although according to Halsey, the cripples were healed by the time Reach fell.

SPARTAN III's were chosen because of their hatred against the Covenant and also genetic markers, that was the reason only 300 of them were chosen, Ackerson hoped that they would be able to augment the normal population one day though. Again, they were trained from age four through six until they were twelve, then they received their augmentations, which didn't cripple nor kill a single one of them and on top of that, they received superior training from both Mendez and Kurt-051.

Giving MJOLNIR to the members of Noble Team was just logical whatsoever, they matched the Spartan II genetic criteria and thus, were deemed more valuable. Truth is, the only reason more SPARTAN II's were made, was because of the lack of kids matching the specific criteria, the lack of funding for another seventy five to one hundred and fifty MJOLNIR armors and because there was no one to train them, since Franklin Mendez was busy on Onyx.

So, I don't see how SPARTAN II's are superior to the III's save for the experience and superior equipment.

  • 06.10.2011 7:21 PM PDT

If you can read this, that means I'm not a Shaolin monk...

yet.


Posted by: RKOSNAKE

Posted by: Atom Alchemist

Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
The idea is that they were given MJOLNIR as a part of Noble, but to me that defeats the entire purpose of saving money with the III's. The most expensive part of the II's was their armor and the whole point of the Spartan III's was to make cost effective super soldiers in massive quantities.[/quote]

But giving MJOLNIR to select few (aka, the couple squads) is different then outfitting every S3 with it.

Why not just make more II's then? That's what I mean by defeating the purpose of III's. If they wanted more MJOLNIR soldiers then they might as well just used the newer augmentation methods to make more Spartan II's. If the original Spartan II program made them rethink their funding with just 75 Spartans and their armor, then what about a 5 man squad of III's with around 2-3 replacements (so around 8 MJOLNIR suits)? Thats a small fortune seeing as that is another 1/10 of what they spent for the III's.

Lets use all that extra money from the complex suits to train more spartans faster and then we can spend even MORE money on top of that to give a select few the armor we were trying to cut out of the equation in the first place! Sounds wonderful right?


spartans 2 were selected by their genetic markers as well as upbringing, they were then trained from a very young age until 16-17 and then given their augments, spartan threes on the other hands were choosen for their simple hatred of the covenant, still from a young age, but they were trained only for a few years before given their augments at around 13-14, then they were sent in as basically kamekaze forces.


spartans two are just plain up better than spartan threes, but spartans threes are way way better then any odst sqoud, so yea.

also, to build a single mjolnir armour it costs as much to build a entire unsc frigate.


Hahahaha, sorry I just can't take you seriously.

SPARTAN II's were chosen by their genetic markers, yes, they were abducted at the age of six and replaced by flash clones who died shortly after. They were trained until the age of fourteen, then they received the augmentations which killed/cripple more than half of them, although according to Halsey, the cripples were healed by the time Reach fell.

SPARTAN III's were chosen because of their hatred against the Covenant and also genetic markers, that was the reason only 300 of them were chosen, Ackerson hoped that they would be able to augment the normal population one day though. Again, they were trained from age four through six until they were twelve, then they received their augmentations, which didn't cripple nor kill a single one of them and on top of that, they received superior training from both Mendez and Kurt-051.

Giving MJOLNIR to the members of Noble Team was just logical whatsoever, they matched the Spartan II genetic criteria and thus, were deemed more valuable. Truth is, the only reason more SPARTAN II's were made, was because of the lack of kids matching the specific criteria, the lack of funding for another seventy five to one hundred and fifty MJOLNIR armors and because there was no one to train them, since Franklin Mendez was busy on Onyx.

So, I don't see how SPARTAN II's are superior to the III's save for the experience and superior equipment.

Training. Kurt admitted to mendez that the III's were to disorganized and aggresive or something along those lines.

  • 06.10.2011 7:37 PM PDT


Posted by: privet caboose
Proof: Halo: Ghosts of Onyx goes into quite a bit of detail on Operation: PROMETHEUS. Spartan-III Alpha Company (comprised of 300 Spartans) were sent to K7-49 on a mission to destroy plasma reactors the Covenant were using to liquefy metallurgical components.

The operation was a success, but it is explicitly stated that it cost the lives of every Spartan-III on the asteroid because they got cut off from their Calypso-class Exfiltration crafts and completely lost their unit cohesion.

Halo Reach chooses to ignore this. Carter (A-259), Emile (A-239), and Jun (A-266) are a part of Noble Team when they should have been dead years ago; Bungie have given us no explanation on how they escaped at all.

Sources:
- Ghosts of Onyx, page 83-87.
- Halo Reach

Don't really care too much, but I'd hazard a guess that either: they were inducted into Noble before the operation and replaced by other S3 candidates, or their survival wasn't documented to allow for the formation of Noble team.

Error: Carter, Emile, and Jun's age.
Carter is born in 2520. He was 11 years old when Alpha Company began their training. This puts him 5 years above the previously stated age, and it makes no sense at all. Why would they have an 11 year old on the same training regime as a 4 year old? It's too large of a difference, and it's an error that can be avoiding by simply changing his birthdate. This same thing goes for Emile and Jun, who are older than 6 years old at Alpha training.

Proof: Page 69(I'm doing this by memory, I may be wrong.) of Ghosts of Oynx states that all of Alpha Company was comprised of 4, 5, and 6 year old children that he was going to have to forge into the best warriors humanity has ever seen.

Source: Ghosts of Oynx, page 69.

It was stated at some point that Carter at least, joined the S3 program at an age which was a fair bit older than other S3s or that his age was at the upper limits for recruiting.

Something like that anyway. I don't care enough to find a source for you.

  • 06.10.2011 7:37 PM PDT

Brains beats brawn get used to it

Fear the Red Comet

Variety is the spice of life.
Long live games.
Death to all fanboys.


Posted by: TheGreenAlloy
Why did the Covvies on the bridge just wander about when a Spartan and some marines/army rangers were clearly blasting their way in?


Either a severe lack of communication or Elite Shipmasters being far too confident that their bridge won't be breached in the event of boarding action. The same thing happens in Truth and Reconciliation back in Halo CE. Despite all the blasting the Chief and company are doing the entire bridge crew just continues on as if nothing happened by the time you walk in.

  • 06.10.2011 7:41 PM PDT

"I may not be perfect, but always been true."

Tabris, Bungie already explained how Carter and the rest of Noble Team escaped their sure doom in both PROMETHEUS and TORPEDO. Here it is.

Edit: My bad, thought you were questioning, but now I see it's a quote from Caboose.

[Edited on 06.10.2011 7:43 PM PDT]

  • 06.10.2011 7:42 PM PDT

Posted by: RKOSNAKE
So, I don't see how SPARTAN II's are superior to the III's save for the experience and superior equipment.

S-III augmentations weren't quite as refined as the S-II ones, afaik. Like, they'd have minor side effects or might not be as efficient?

But for the most part, they're as good as S-IIs and you're right, the only thing that really makes them standout from SIIIs is that SIIs have better equipment and are more experienced.

[Edited on 06.10.2011 7:58 PM PDT]

  • 06.10.2011 7:56 PM PDT

"I may not be perfect, but always been true."


Posted by: Tabris
Posted by: RKOSNAKE
So, I don't see how SPARTAN II's are superior to the III's save for the experience and superior equipment.

S-III augmentations weren't quite as refined as the S-II ones, afaik. Like, they'd have minor side effects or might not be as efficient?

But for the most part, they're as good as S-IIs and you're right, the only thing that really makes them standout from SIIIs is that SIIs have better equipment and are more experienced.


Their augmentations were the same, save for the method in which they were applied. SPARTAN II's had metal grafted into their bones as opposed to the III's whom had a chemical cocktail/solution injected to them to make their bones virtually unbreakable.

The only augmentation SPARTAN III's didn't have was the Thyroid implant since they didn't need it, due to their lack of real metal inside of them, the II's Carbide Ceramic Ossification augmentation made their bones unable to grow on their own, so they needed that growth hormone in order to stretch out, unlike the III's that could grow normally.

  • 06.10.2011 8:01 PM PDT