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This topic has moved here: Poll [44 votes]: Would you like a blocking feature in melee battles?
  • Poll [44 votes]: Would you like a blocking feature in melee battles?
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Subject: Melee Blocking
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Poll: Would you like a blocking feature in melee battles?  [closed]
Yes:  50%
(22 Votes)
No:  36%
(16 Votes)
Don't Care:  14%
(6 Votes)
Total Votes: 44

Imagine a game where when you press the melee button, you unleash a string of violent melee attacks. (i.e. combos in Halo 2)
Now imagine that game where when you click and hold the right thumbstick, you use your gun to block the oncoming attack (therefore giving you the "parry" advantage).
The second you release the hold, you resume normal play. (so, click a few times and you do the combo, but hold the click at any time and you block)
Of course, the blocking would require good timing. The better the timing the better the "parry advantage" would be...

I'm not talking about turning Halo into a hands to hands combat game. I only believe that adding another layer to the melee dimension would bring a lot to the game...

Your thoughts?


Here is the thread that spawned this Poll http://www.bungie.net/Forums/posts.aspx?postID=48064

[Edited on 5/4/2004 5:09:53 AM]

  • 05.04.2004 5:08 AM PDT
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No, and i think leaving it out is justifiable based on the fact that a punch or flurry of punches would pretty much destroy the weapon you were blocking with. Halo : CE was about shooting, running, jumping, hiding, stalking, and shooting some more. Melee combos isn't gonna change that, I'm still gonna run up on you shoot with a shotgun, and try to melee combo to finish you off to avoid the reload animation disadvantage. And if Bungie added blocking into the mix, people would get rediculous with thier fights, and it would just give me more time to line up a long shot with a sniper rifle or rocket launcher to take both of them out. So in order to avoid people turning into jackasses and not staying focused on the core objective of the game "Killing fast, and Scoring points" I saw leave it out and never look back.

  • 05.04.2004 5:33 AM PDT

bah

Yes, but only when using the plasma sword. A parry and counter attack would be nice since the reload button and melee button would be open when using the sword.

  • 05.04.2004 5:37 AM PDT
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my thoughts on the plasma sword as a usable weapon in multiplayer are the same as for melee blocking. What's the point of adding something that removes a player from what he's supposed to be doing?

  • 05.04.2004 5:44 AM PDT

bah

Posted by: Creep
What's the point of adding something that removes a player from what he's supposed to be doing?
Killing people mercilessly with every weapon available? How does the plasma sword not fulfill that role?

  • 05.04.2004 5:47 AM PDT
Subject: Creep
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You raise a good point...

I guess I look at it in a way that being a fast hitter, I picture the many times the battle strays between half a clip, a hit or two, another half clip, a body drops. How many times in levels like Longest or Wizard has it resulted in a large combination of hit helping provide the final kill?
Would blocking not help then?

Of course, you're point of opening one'self to snipers and rockets is obvious but that applies to the game blocking or no blocking. Remember, this action is one that happens just as fast the a melee attack (if not faster now that combos are involved). It only results in you putting your gun in the way of a hit to avoid half your shield dropping.
As to the guns breaking. Forget the idea of a block for a second. Considering the amount of thumping one can do with the gun without it breaking, I think they could have the blocking and it wouldn't seem all that implausible.
Is it that easy to break your nemesis's shotgun with a machine gun you're holding and fighting with?

Of course, you can agree to disagree, I only think this would not bring anything negative as one can just choose to avoid that type of game play (some people thump a lot (me) some were born snipers...)

Catch my drift?

  • 05.04.2004 5:58 AM PDT
Subject: Melee Blocking
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I dont know... maybe i'm ignorant. But it would seem to me, that you don't bring a sword to a gun fight unless you have a death wish. Every gun has something that a sword doesnt, the ability to shoot over a distance. Now it just seems to me that the plasma sword would only be usefull if you were going around a blind corner. And even in that situation i'd prefer a shot gun, just for the simple fact that if i dont kill with the shotgun blast i can just go straight into a melee attack.

On top of that, you're at a disadvantage in practically every other situation, mid/long range you'd most likely lose to even a shot gun. And close up if someone has a plasma weapon equipped, all they'd need to do is shot to stun you and back peddal to a safer distance. As far as balance goes, plasma sword seems like the only thing it would be usefull for as a giant glowing flag that says "heyy snipers! in case you dont get enough zoom on your scope I just want you to know i'm out in the open and i want you to shoot me!"

  • 05.04.2004 6:05 AM PDT
Subject: Melee Blocking / Swords
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I'm not the first to argue positively for Swords...

I love the Elites who carry a sword. They not only provide that "I am untouchable" feeling for the Covies but there is nothing like finishing one off with a melee attack and watching all the little fellas run away shouting for their puny lives!
What a feeling!

Add to these great sensations the sensational ending of the sensational E3's (2003) video and you get the final sensation that those swords are...

...Obscene!!
(notice the use of repetition to emphasize; my English teacher would be so proud)

But, to go as far as giving Master Chief one... First, it would be hard to use, secondly, it would complicate the standard of game play (a lot more than say... blocking for example)
Also, as Creep pointed out very well, one would not really stand a chance apart from actively camouflaged, with an over shield and in a small level...

Too complicated in my eyes...

  • 05.04.2004 6:24 AM PDT
Subject: Miyamoto
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I see you're point and i'm certainly open for discussion. Maybe it's the word "blocking" that you keep using, a timed parry is simpley the only way i could ever see it being practical. As you know obviously many different people have drastically different styles of play. Me for example When i'm faced at a disadvantage in a firefight, my shields are down both people's clips ran out and it turns into a melee frenzy i have a tendancy to look at the ground and start tossing frag grenades, because if i'm going out i'm gonna try like hell to bring the other guy down with me. And meleeing too much becomes a crap shoot, where as a genade's splash damage seems to cover enough area to take us both out. Or very rarely just the other guy.

But if i could simpley run at the other guy parry his melee attack, and guarantee myself at least one melee hit, that could be an effective and quick way to end the fight right then and there. However timing comes into play. Melee attacks come quick and it's debateable if reacting to one is even plausable on a consistant basis. It would seem to be more of something that you would have to (what the name of that word that starts with an "A" and means you'd have to be able to see it coming without knowing for sure that it's comming?)
well you'd have to do that. And that's more of a mind game. Then you gotta break it down to where it goes in the control scheme. Which there doesn't seem to be a place for.

Dont get me wrong the idea has it's merits in my mind. But i just dont see how you could do it without conflicting with other controls, and making it easy to use.

  • 05.04.2004 6:28 AM PDT
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Ok, you're right, the idea is a timed parry...

Try and bear with me as I justify this down to the basics.

I know that a lot of players revert to different techniques to suite their style. I myself have always been a violent bugger (both in real life and in games). It seems therefore obvious (to me at least) that I would be a big melee attack man. To illustrate, in the situation you described, I would try to finish you off with my melee attacks and that's the bottom line. Over the years I've become pretty good at accurate jumping followed by accurate hitting (more damage and usually on the head!). I'dd take the opportunity that you're looking down throwing grenades and hope to have finished you in time to get out of the blast radius...

Well, in theory at least ;-)

The Parry idea (think of it as blocking in my terms) albeit requiring speed and accuracy would means that in situations where two melee men are fighting, the hit rate would largely depend on the skill in blocking. It would simply make rocking my enemies's brain harder and therefore more enjoyable (too easy = no fun).

But let me explain how I would see it work...

What ever button you choose to hit, it seems obvious that repeatedly hitting the button will achieve a melee attack combo in Halo 2. The more you hit the button, the more you hit until the combo stops. What I propose is that when you press the button, if you hold it for a bit, Master Chief issues a hit that quickly turns in a parry move before resuming normal position (i.e. shooting position). The hard bit to achieve in terms of designing is the time awarded to the difference between pressing and holding a button (if this is not clear say so and I'll try and clear it up).
The end result would be something about as hard to achieve as a counter in Dead or Alive. It's one of those situation where by once used to the timings and style of play, it becomes relatively easy and one get's it 8/10 times...

In my eyes, it would be great to be able to jump into a group of Elites (without swords as no gun could block a Plasma Sword imo) and with the help of the trusty shotgun, dodge the bullets, parry the hits (and use the advantage to melee hit the back of the fools) as you unload whilst jumping around...
Basically resulting in 5 dead Elites and a shield reloading over a full bar of health (due to the successfull blocking of the incoming hits).

Does that make it clearer in your mind?

  • 05.04.2004 6:56 AM PDT
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I thought about the whole 5 elite senario, and what you're suggesting would be practically implausable even if bungie added a parry command. Not saying that the idea for a parry command isn't a decent idea. But to think that with that addition all of the sudden you'll be able to kung fu 5 armed elites to death on any difficulty setting besides the newly added "super ultra mega easy elites are now blocks of wood" setting is pretty insane, despite how high the meleeing skill level of the player is. I'm just not sure you're idea is very clear in your own mind. Not to be offensive, you just may have not thought it out as well as you could have.

Most guns and the tactics that go with each, have definitive strength's and weaknesses. For example the sniper rifle : good at medium-long to long range, but I'd chose the AR over this at short range. Fast Rate of fire, but only a 4 round clip. Being sneaky and taking long shots with it is good, running the front lines of a base assault is bad.

Amazingly melee is much like the sniper rifle as far as tactics goes, If you can be sneaky with it, it's the quickest way to safely kill someone and move on unharmed. It's range is terrible, and i'd rather be chasing someone down the hall with a needler if given the choise. But running into a group of guys with just a sniper rifle or without ammo = lame.

  • 05.04.2004 8:55 AM PDT
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It would be cool if two people meleed at the same time and then got locked together in a sort of grapple and continue to pound the melee button until one of you dropped your gun.

  • 05.04.2004 9:23 AM PDT
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Now your getting into Jedi Knight stuff. There is no reason for a melee block as one already exist, its called taking a step back (or to the side). You should try it some time. Now I personally find that the melee attack works well as the finishing move in close combat. I normally charge enemies with the assault rifle and the hit them in the face after expending nearly a whole clip. This works well until some pulls out a shotgun or shots me in the head with a pistol.

There are going to be some weapons in Halo 2 that I won't want to charge.
1. Duel Machine guns (that'll change how close combat is done)
2. Rocket Launcher (people will take there own life instead of being meleed)
3. Flame thrower (better then a fist any day)
4. Plasma sword (who ever has this weapon in plain view will be shot so fast it won't be funny)

  • 05.04.2004 10:10 AM PDT
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I think it would be interesting if you could melee frag grenades away from you.... But it would be very difficult obviously... More like a lucky manover...

  • 05.04.2004 10:26 AM PDT
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I agree that if i saw a guy in mp with the sword he'd be dropped as fast as my finger could pull the trigger lol

  • 05.04.2004 10:33 AM PDT

Posted by: Creep
Melee attacks come quick and it's debateable if reacting to one is even plausable on a consistant basis. It would seem to be more of something that you would have to (what the name of that word that starts with an "A" and means you'd have to be able to see it coming without knowing for sure that it's comming?)



anticipate

but anyway, i think blocking melee attacks would be pointless. sure, you could block the first one, but then the other guy would do a combo and hit you with the second. even if that didn't happen, the way you are stating it makes it sound like whoever swings first will get blocked and hit, so no one will ever want to swing first, so everyone will wait for the other person to swing first, so no one will ever swing, so melee attacks will never be used, which would make blocking even more useless. it seems to be best just to have it where both people are hitting each other and getting beat up until one person dies. since different wepons will have different melee strengths and speeds, this will work.

  • 05.04.2004 11:13 AM PDT

bah

Posted by: meshnaster
even if that didn't happen, the way you are stating it makes it sound like whoever swings first will get blocked and hit, so no one will ever want to swing first, so everyone will wait for the other person to swing first, so no one will ever swing,
You haven't played any fighting games, have you? But why should you have, this is a FPS, not a fighting game. I only want to see options on the sword, nothing else.

P.S. In fighting games like DoA3, someone always strikes first, always. Sometimes, it will take a few seconds, looking for an opening, but there is always a first strike. (Unless it's a grab, but there will be no grabbing in Halo 2.)

  • 05.04.2004 11:41 AM PDT
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I think the best way to implement is just press melee RIGHT after your oponnent does. You simply shove the melee to the side (interrupting the combo) and get a slight positional advantage on your opponent but have to take time to bring your weapon back up to shoot - time lag (or you can melee as well - which would be open for parry from your opponent)

I think it could work and be interesting and innovative, but it'll take a TON of balance testing.

  • 05.04.2004 11:55 AM PDT
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I agree that trying to melee in a game loaded with guns would be suicide for the most part. It would be interesting to see how the plasma sword will play out. I imagine it will do REALLY well in confined MP maps.

But on the subject of different melees...

Rather than having melee combos and such, I'd like to see maybe different "one blow" melee animations that kill from behind. Maybe having the MC grab someone's chin and head and wrench and snap their neck, maybe even a knife plunged through the armor (after you grab them around their neck, either come up through the back or around through the chest). These would have the same function as the kill from behind melee shot but would just be different animations (eye-candy).

  • 05.04.2004 12:02 PM PDT
Subject: Miyamoto and his desperate Parry
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Ok, you people raise some very interesting points...

First of, Creep, when you say (and I quote) "I'm just not sure you're idea is very clear in your own mind. Not to be offensive, you just may have not thought it out as well as you could have.

Believe me offense is taken and I have thought it through. Of course, like all implementations, one would need to be on the design board to take it to the fullest degree. This is just an idea, it is also one that I've enjoyed thinking about.

Now the reality of this, is that a blocking feature in Halo would of course require a substantial amount of testing to achieve perfection and enjoyment on our part. Things like the actual method required to block, the timings, and of course how the parry advantage would come about are not easily done properly. Someone (Jndu) mentioned a "slight positional advantage on your opponent ". This sounds exactly like what I had in mind...
The intricate details of such I would leave to the people in charge, namely the wise designers of Bungie...

Funnily enough, I thought that this idea would please the hell out of your average player. A day and 32 votes later, 47% don't like the idea, 41% do and 12% don't care (to which I'm inclined to say that they might as well say yes and help me out a bit ;). I guess that like Creep (and others) pointed out, many people play many different ways. Someone like Sylas has the same kind of technique as I. In the scenario described by him, I could see a great use in blocking. Having emptied your AR, you would be hopping your way to thump me and upon hitting the melee button, a parry advantage would leave you in a sticky situation (empty gun, bad position). It's situation like these that to me show the real use of a thing like blocking.
The situation I described at the end of my last post was one explicitly exaggerated (get it Creep?). I'm sure that all of you here have found yourselves in a situation on Legendary where for the hell of it, you jump in the middle of the action and somehow manage to get out untouched, covered in blue blood and not quite sure how it all happened. I was trying to describe a similar situation with my beloved added feature.
Dying it down a bit as it seems that few can let their imagination run like I can, imagine walking through those repetitive doors to find your lone elite walking around. For all those times where the elite happens to be facing you, in close combat, being able to block/parry and shut him up for good with a thump would mean one could have another opportunity to staying on the sly.

To finish off, I think the bottom line is that in a game providing such an exact and beautiful reflection of the reality of war and fighting, made me glad to see that Bungie thought of adding a physical close combat option. To me, the obvious step up was a combo like situation on top of many other added feature (vehicle jacking, dual wielding etc etc). This achieved, it was time to think ahead (I'm like that). How could one bring this to the next level? As I love the physical side of Halo, I stared thinking of real life situations where by someone like Master Chief finds himself in a war like the ones we've seen/imagined. Elites, leaping around trying to thump the hell out of Master Chief raised to obvious thought, namely: What if I could block?...

To see them implement so much for Halo 2 opened up ideas, wishes, even dreams, I guess that's the real final punch line...

  • 05.05.2004 2:30 AM PDT
Subject: Melee Blocking / Swords
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both creep and miyamoto musashi have good arguements. I agree with creep on the not having a plasma sword. I think it would end up being one of those weapons you only get to use once in a while and end up forgetting about. Especially in MP where there are rockets and snipes everywhere. so its pretty much useless. But i also agree with miyamoto on the blocking. that would add a cool aspect to game play wether it be multiplayer or campain it would add just one more aspect to an already amazing game. and i don't think that has ever been used in a first person shooter before either which is also neat. but i could relaly care less if it made it to the game or not. i was competely satisfied with the melee attacks in halo. and i can't wait to try some combos and such.

[Edited on 5/5/2004 2:50:01 AM]

  • 05.05.2004 2:48 AM PDT
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Cheers, Kalmah.

Although you have confused me a bit. Could you explain what you mean when you say:

"but i could relaly care less if it made it to the game or not. i was competely satisfied with the melee attacks in halo. and i can't wait to try some combos and such. "

Cheers


[Edited on 5/5/2004 3:11:09 AM]

  • 05.05.2004 3:09 AM PDT
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I stand by my initial comments, and upon further reflection, think that blocking/parrying is a natural evolution of the combat formula and a very good idea.

I understand people' s apprehension to the idea, as they don't want Halo's gameplay broken. I can understand that. But, I don't see how this would really upset the balance.

1. the gunplay really isn't changed by it

2. sure, some fistfights could go on for awhile, but that's part of the strategy - knowing when to disengage - plus, fists only could be an interesting idea

3. melee combos are going to be more dangerous in mulitplayer than we think (ever played against someone that's a double melee abuser?), and having a block/parry just adds another combat option to counter that.

4. Finally, MS kicks major tail in the book (hand to hand), so parrying attacks doesn't seem out of his abilities

  • 05.05.2004 4:11 AM PDT
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Out of interest how would you go about setting something like this up?...

  • 05.05.2004 6:22 AM PDT
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If you're asking how to set up a double melee attack it's simple. Melee, grenade, melee. Which if the ability to cancel the animations into each other is still in Halo2 would raise an intresting flaw in the system. The point of parrying or deflecting a melee hit it seems would be to avoid damage and gain both a positional advantage and an advantage on initiative, giving the person just enough time to parry you're subsequent melee strike. Now if the ability saved you from taking damage but gave you no other specific advantage there would be no point to chose to parry rather than to just strike for damage when in range. And if you were given a slight advantage (say enough time to throw out a melee attack) you'd also have enough time to stick a plasma grenade on the face of your oponent, you may or may not be able to get away, but as we all know stickin a plasma grenade on someone can be as lethal as a melee to the back against someone with an overshield. It's also gonna give you enough advantage to take an undodgeable shot with a shotgun at point blank range.

Now it seems to me that the point of adding a parry is to expand the melee side of the combat system. If your melee attack get's parried, i'd only fair to expect that you should be able to reparry the opponent following melee attack. However since there's more ways to kill your opponent than with just a blunt stick with your weapon, you also would also be at a disavantage to attacks that you can not parry. And if there's no advantage to parrying someone's attack then why do it? Only other way i can see of adding something similar in, is a counter/parry ability that when a successful counter is executed you get a free melee counter weather it be automatic or manual. And in that case You're just limiting people's options in multiplayer.

Point being, I think meleeing is gonna be fine just the way it is.

  • 05.05.2004 7:54 AM PDT

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