Bungie Universe
This topic has moved here: Subject: Halo Reach Did not Destroy the Canon
  • Subject: Halo Reach Did not Destroy the Canon
Subject: Halo Reach Did not Destroy the Canon


Posted by: haloplayer2kill
Bungie lied when they said canon was not changed with halo reach (said somewhere in an interview i think).


Yeah, I remember that interview. Someone asked how well Halo: Reach's campaign fit in with the Halo Canon, and one of the employees said, "perfectly".

Yeah... right.

  • 01.20.2011 4:44 PM PDT


Posted by: Beowolfe

Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: C0MIC RELIEF

Posted by: GrnDragn
I don't know why we are debating this. Bungie did screw up the Canon. There are no "buts" about it. You Bungie fanboys will do anything to defend Bungie. This is blind zealotry!

And to all the people who debunk "The Fall of Reach" Novel, just be quiet. TFoR came out even before Combat Evolved! It is the first source of Halo Canon. Are there inconsistencies? Yes, but these can be fixed. Halo: Reach... I don't know.

The Fall of Reach was not released until after Halo: Combat Evolved.

What are you talking about?


Hello there, welcome to the battlefront, my friend, here's a flame retardant suit.

To GrnDragn:
I would assume that the Halo story was not very well developed when TFoR came out and that Nylund had to take many creative liberties with the duration of events and the dates of events as well as sequence, and that they have since been retconned in Bungie's own sources (aka Halo Story Bible) as they've shaped their universe.

And we are now seeing what Bungie says happened, and rather than just "saying to heck with the fanbase let's do whatever the -blam!- we want" they take the already existing story and move events and dates around or extend some to fit their story. And a lot of TFoR has been rendered inconsistent with other media in the Haloverse.

Contrary to what some are claiming TFoR is the only book affected by Reach. First Strike and Ghosts of Onyx are not affected by it in any way that negatively affects their whole story.

After all this time, I don't know if that's ignorance or pure stubbornness that makes you say that. As I've said a long time ago and still hold to this day, what's important is the fact that Bungie changed certain facts that would have a domino effect on media written about and surrounding the entire events of the fall of Reach, though I will admit TFoR is the only novel to be heavily impacted. Btw, Nylund HAD the Halo Bible when he was writing it, and supposedly only had to make minor adjustments to fit the story with the game.

Sure, Bungie can do whatever they want with "their" story, but it doesn't mean that it will make it better. Nylund was a better writer for the series than they are.

And I should make clear; the canon is not shattered, only stretched and bent. The quality of the story, however, went down the drains with Halo Reach. Maybe the upcoming Halo media will revive it, but Reach was just disappointing.


Well I know I am not ignorant, though you can feel free to think what you want :P So I would have to say I am stubborn, which I actually am, and determined to not just sit around and start finding fault with every single little detail of the game because it changed the timeline around. How would it affect anything other than TFoR? As far as I've found in my readings of the Halo universe TFoR would be the only media affected by the changes in timeline, as everything else happens after the 30th or on that specific day.

I would definitely not say he is a better writer of the story than Bungie, especially since I've never read any sort of writing by them. And writing for video games and books are completely different, you can't really compare them. And besides, I would take anything stated by Bungie in any media relating to them over any information stated by an author in one of the books, seeing as Bungie would know their own story better than someone else.

I agree, it has been stretched, and hence evolved into something else, whether the new is better or not is a matter of opinion. I personally think the new is much better than what was, and I certainly don't think that Reach has brought the quality of Halo down at all. Maybe it seems a little bit forced and suffers slightly in that regard as Bungie has said they're tired of making only Halo.

  • 01.20.2011 4:57 PM PDT


Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: Beowolfe

Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: C0MIC RELIEF

Posted by: GrnDragn
I don't know why we are debating this. Bungie did screw up the Canon. There are no "buts" about it. You Bungie fanboys will do anything to defend Bungie. This is blind zealotry!

And to all the people who debunk "The Fall of Reach" Novel, just be quiet. TFoR came out even before Combat Evolved! It is the first source of Halo Canon. Are there inconsistencies? Yes, but these can be fixed. Halo: Reach... I don't know.

The Fall of Reach was not released until after Halo: Combat Evolved.

What are you talking about?


Hello there, welcome to the battlefront, my friend, here's a flame retardant suit.

To GrnDragn:
I would assume that the Halo story was not very well developed when TFoR came out and that Nylund had to take many creative liberties with the duration of events and the dates of events as well as sequence, and that they have since been retconned in Bungie's own sources (aka Halo Story Bible) as they've shaped their universe.

And we are now seeing what Bungie says happened, and rather than just "saying to heck with the fanbase let's do whatever the -blam!- we want" they take the already existing story and move events and dates around or extend some to fit their story. And a lot of TFoR has been rendered inconsistent with other media in the Haloverse.

Contrary to what some are claiming TFoR is the only book affected by Reach. First Strike and Ghosts of Onyx are not affected by it in any way that negatively affects their whole story.

After all this time, I don't know if that's ignorance or pure stubbornness that makes you say that. As I've said a long time ago and still hold to this day, what's important is the fact that Bungie changed certain facts that would have a domino effect on media written about and surrounding the entire events of the fall of Reach, though I will admit TFoR is the only novel to be heavily impacted. Btw, Nylund HAD the Halo Bible when he was writing it, and supposedly only had to make minor adjustments to fit the story with the game.

Sure, Bungie can do whatever they want with "their" story, but it doesn't mean that it will make it better. Nylund was a better writer for the series than they are.

And I should make clear; the canon is not shattered, only stretched and bent. The quality of the story, however, went down the drains with Halo Reach. Maybe the upcoming Halo media will revive it, but Reach was just disappointing.


Well I know I am not ignorant, though you can feel free to think what you want :P So I would have to say I am stubborn, which I actually am, and determined to not just sit around and start finding fault with every single little detail of the game because it changed the timeline around. How would it affect anything other than TFoR? As far as I've found in my readings of the Halo universe TFoR would be the only media affected by the changes in timeline, as everything else happens after the 30th or on that specific day.

I would definitely not say he is a better writer of the story than Bungie, especially since I've never read any sort of writing by them. And writing for video games and books are completely different, you can't really compare them. And besides, I would take anything stated by Bungie in any media relating to them over any information stated by an author in one of the books, seeing as Bungie would know their own story better than someone else.

I agree, it has been stretched, and hence evolved into something else, whether the new is better or not is a matter of opinion. I personally think the new is much better than what was, and I certainly don't think that Reach has brought the quality of Halo down at all. Maybe it seems a little bit forced and suffers slightly in that regard as Bungie has said they're tired of making only Halo.


Just because they were tired of Halo, doesn't mean that they had to destroy/bend the Canon to the extreme. And I think you will find that many don't like how Canon was changed, and if Bungie had such great writers, they sure as hell didn't show it. And whether you think it does or it doesn't, it does send ripple effects to the other books. It's not just Fall of Reach that will be affected.

Eric Nylund was hired by Bungie to make the Fall of Reach in the first place. So I think he deserves some credibility.

Reach felt like a random, backwater farming colony with a few frigates and a random Spartan III team shoved in there for the hell of it. I think Eric Nylund did a much better job at creating a story than Bungie did with creating Reach.

  • 01.20.2011 5:05 PM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

All the events from the novels still happened. Nothing was changed, just expanded.

It never made sense that the Covenant would blindly run into the SMACs protected by hundreds of ships without some sort of strategy.

  • 01.20.2011 5:16 PM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:


Posted by: privet caboose
Reach did break canon.

Infact, it breaks canon within the first 5 minutes of the game. Reach fell on August 30th. That's the day the Covenant found Reach, and decimated the UNSC Fleet. All in one day.

The game says that the UNSC lost in over a months time. And without the UNSC even putting up a real fight. It was as if Reach was some random farmer colony.

you've copy/pasted this for a while now, but it's as true as it gets man.

  • 01.20.2011 5:19 PM PDT


Posted by: Mr Owen L
Halo Reach destroyed the canon in the Fall of Reach and First Strike there is no way to argue around it, REach fell in one day by a surprise covenant attack, The POA was in about to enter slipsapce or had just entered and was traveling away from reach after being refitted in an orbital shipyard before it was recalled to action and destroyed a few covenant ships before deploy almost all the spartan II's to defend the SMAC generators and John, Linda and james went to destroy the NAV core of another ship. After John returned to The POA, reach was beging to fall and Keyes initiated the Cole Protocol and cortana set co-ordinates for something that she had discovered from research the signal and rocks found on SO IV, she had no idea what it was at all. Reach fell within a few days and the remainin spartans headed to castle base and met up with halsey.
many think it's alot better this time round with reach falling in over month it means humanity fought well and contained it onto one continent you think hell well win but all hope is lost when 700 other ships show up, and about cortana well who said the infomation under sword base was the location of Halo? could of been a piece of to something else? it could of been data cortana had locked away untill she understood the forerunners?

POA on reach geez there was enough time for the POA to get onto reach(towed) and pick up the fragment. also perhaps we should wait for more canon info such as the comics showing the perspective of teh POA and Covenant?

[Edited on 01.20.2011 5:22 PM PST]

  • 01.20.2011 5:21 PM PDT


Posted by: manwith
All the events from the novels still happened. Nothing was changed, just expanded.

It never made sense that the Covenant would blindly run into the SMACs protected by hundreds of ships without some sort of strategy.


That's a lie. Halo: Reach completely retconned TFoR.

  • 01.20.2011 5:24 PM PDT


Posted by: Alf stewert

Posted by: Mr Owen L
Halo Reach destroyed the canon in the Fall of Reach and First Strike there is no way to argue around it, REach fell in one day by a surprise covenant attack, The POA was in about to enter slipsapce or had just entered and was traveling away from reach after being refitted in an orbital shipyard before it was recalled to action and destroyed a few covenant ships before deploy almost all the spartan II's to defend the SMAC generators and John, Linda and james went to destroy the NAV core of another ship. After John returned to The POA, reach was beging to fall and Keyes initiated the Cole Protocol and cortana set co-ordinates for something that she had discovered from research the signal and rocks found on SO IV, she had no idea what it was at all. Reach fell within a few days and the remainin spartans headed to castle base and met up with halsey.
many think it's alot better this time round with reach falling in over month it means humanity fought well and contained it onto one continent you think hell well win but all hope is lost when 700 other ships show up, and about cortana well who said the infomation under sword base was the location of Halo? could of been a piece of to something else? it could of been data cortana had locked away untill she understood the forerunners?

POA on reach geez there was enough time for the POA to get onto reach(towed) and pick up the fragment. also perhaps we should wait for more canon info such as the comics showing the perspective of teh POA and Covenant?


Just because Reach fell in a day, doesn't mean Humanity "didn't fight hard". They were outnumbered 3(?) to 1, and they still put up a brilliant fight against the Fleet of Particular Justice. In fact, I think a majority of the Fleet of Particular Justice was lost.

Having Reach fall in a day is pretty believable, rather than holding out for a month against a vastly superior force.

And I'm sure the towing the POA would have been costly in terms of time. Hell, it might not have even worked. Stop trying to defend Bungie because they are simply Bungie!

[Edited on 01.20.2011 5:30 PM PST]

  • 01.20.2011 5:29 PM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

Posted by: GrnDragn

Posted by: manwith
All the events from the novels still happened. Nothing was changed, just expanded.

It never made sense that the Covenant would blindly run into the SMACs protected by hundreds of ships without some sort of strategy.


That's a lie. Halo: Reach completely retconned TFoR.


TFoR is not told from Reach's perspective, so that's irrelevant.

  • 01.20.2011 5:31 PM PDT


Posted by: manwith
Posted by: GrnDragn

Posted by: manwith
All the events from the novels still happened. Nothing was changed, just expanded.

It never made sense that the Covenant would blindly run into the SMACs protected by hundreds of ships without some sort of strategy.


That's a lie. Halo: Reach completely retconned TFoR.


TFoR is not told from Reach's perspective, so that's irrelevant.


LOL, wut?

You've just lost all credibility, good sir.

[Edited on 01.20.2011 5:33 PM PST]

  • 01.20.2011 5:33 PM PDT


Posted by: GrnDragn

Posted by: Alf stewert

Posted by: haloplayer2kill


Posted by: GrnDragn
I don't know why we are debating this. Bungie did screw up the Canon. There are no "buts" about it. You Bungie fanboys will do anything to defend Bungie. This is blind zealotry!

And to all the people who debunk "The Fall of Reach" Novel, just be quiet. TFoR came out even before Combat Evolved! It is the first source of Halo Canon. Are there inconsistencies? Yes, but these can be fixed. Halo: Reach... I don't know.[/quote]
The Fall of Reach was not released until after Halo: Combat Evolved.

What are you talking about?[/quote]

Hello there, welcome to the battlefront, my friend, here's a flame retardant suit.

To GrnDragn:
I would assume that the Halo story was not very well developed when TFoR came out and that Nylund had to take many creative liberties with the duration of events and the dates of events as well as sequence, and that they have since been retconned in Bungie's own sources (aka Halo Story Bible) as they've shaped their universe.

And we are now seeing what Bungie says happened, and rather than just "saying to heck with the fanbase let's do whatever the -blam!- we want" they take the already existing story and move events and dates around or extend some to fit their story. And a lot of TFoR has been rendered inconsistent with other media in the Haloverse.

Contrary to what some are claiming TFoR is the only book affected by Reach. First Strike and Ghosts of Onyx are not affected by it in any way that negatively affects their whole story.


How can you say TFOR was the ONLY book affected?

When Master Chief returned to Reach in First Strike, he met the surviving spartan 2's of that battle. The battle was heavily mentioned in that book.

The survival of those spartans, and where they were, all happened because of many events in TFOR, that now seem to be non-canon. Some of these spartan 2's also show up in GoO.

Its the butterfly effect.

It's like bungie went back in time in the haloverse and changed events, you can't just expect those events to change and not anything else. Those changed events will affect a new changed future.

In this new future Hasley may never even go to Onyx, for there were many events that built up to that moment, ones built on each other. Certain events she participated in the book TFOR, seem to have become non-canon. Originally those events affect her events in First Strike and GoO (originally Hasley knew nothing about the spartan 3's during the fall of reach). Also in the new timeline a spartan 3 has survived, named jun. So think how this will affect the new future with Hasley's early knowledge of the Spartan 3 project as well as another spartan.

By having the battle of reach for more then 1 day is a HUGE problem, including the PoA being on Reach.

Think of Halo canon has a building under construction. Level's are built on previous levels, each affecting each other. Bungie has removed some of the original levels to that building.



bunge only redid repolished and Connected levels to fit it's been said a many times how it all fits and now people are just being to nitpicky


It still doesn't fit the original Canon! Honestly, are you so blinded by Bungie that you can't see that?

In the first 5 minutes of the game, the Canon was bent to all-hell. As the game progressed, it became worse and worse!
It does fit Why? cause it is a DIFFERENT perspective of a Story such as pulp ficiton had different perspective with different view holes, we see a different story a different light on a situation and we go crazy cause we dont think it fits, if you Guys would stop being A holes towards nitpicking everything you would see reach is a side story a behind the scenes of the start of the downfall of reach.

again you guys whine and winge about it BUT!! it's been explained you saying it hasnt is wrong the journal clears it up, But "no impossible" *Sign* Ill say it and continue to say it Reach is a side story to the book Oh and saying it needs to clear up when it has is stupid so stop saying it needs to be cleared up IT HAS!!

[Edited on 01.20.2011 5:43 PM PST]

  • 01.20.2011 5:39 PM PDT


Posted by: GrnDragn
I don't know why we are debating this. Bungie did screw up the Canon. There are no "buts" about it. You Bungie fanboys will do anything to defend Bungie. This is blind zealotry!

And to all the people who debunk "The Fall of Reach" Novel, just be quiet. TFoR came out even before Combat Evolved! It is the first source of Halo Canon. Are there inconsistencies? Yes, but these can be fixed. Halo: Reach... I don't know.[/quote]

Posted By: C0mic Relief
The Fall of Reach was not released until after Halo: Combat Evolved.

What are you talking about?[/quote]

Posted By: OrderedComa
Hello there, welcome to the battlefront, my friend, here's a flame retardant suit.

To GrnDragn:
I would assume that the Halo story was not very well developed when TFoR came out and that Nylund had to take many creative liberties with the duration of events and the dates of events as well as sequence, and that they have since been retconned in Bungie's own sources (aka Halo Story Bible) as they've shaped their universe.

And we are now seeing what Bungie says happened, and rather than just "saying to heck with the fanbase let's do whatever the -blam!- we want" they take the already existing story and move events and dates around or extend some to fit their story. And a lot of TFoR has been rendered inconsistent with other media in the Haloverse.

Contrary to what some are claiming TFoR is the only book affected by Reach. First Strike and Ghosts of Onyx are not affected by it in any way that negatively affects their whole story.



After all this time, I don't know if that's ignorance or pure stubbornness that makes you say that. As I've said a long time ago and still hold to this day, what's important is the fact that Bungie changed certain facts that would have a domino effect on media written about and surrounding the entire events of the fall of Reach, though I will admit TFoR is the only novel to be heavily impacted. Btw, Nylund HAD the Halo Bible when he was writing it, and supposedly only had to make minor adjustments to fit the story with the game.

Sure, Bungie can do whatever they want with "their" story, but it doesn't mean that it will make it better. Nylund was a better writer for the series than they are.

And I should make clear; the canon is not shattered, only stretched and bent. The quality of the story, however, went down the drains with Halo Reach. Maybe the upcoming Halo media will revive it, but Reach was just disappointing.


Well I know I am not ignorant, though you can feel free to think what you want :P So I would have to say I am stubborn, which I actually am, and determined to not just sit around and start finding fault with every single little detail of the game because it changed the timeline around. How would it affect anything other than TFoR? As far as I've found in my readings of the Halo universe TFoR would be the only media affected by the changes in timeline, as everything else happens after the 30th or on that specific day.

I would definitely not say he is a better writer of the story than Bungie, especially since I've never read any sort of writing by them. And writing for video games and books are completely different, you can't really compare them. And besides, I would take anything stated by Bungie in any media relating to them over any information stated by an author in one of the books, seeing as Bungie would know their own story better than someone else.

I agree, it has been stretched, and hence evolved into something else, whether the new is better or not is a matter of opinion. I personally think the new is much better than what was, and I certainly don't think that Reach has brought the quality of Halo down at all. Maybe it seems a little bit forced and suffers slightly in that regard as Bungie has said they're tired of making only Halo.


Just because they were tired of Halo, doesn't mean that they had to destroy/bend the Canon to the extreme. And I think you will find that many don't like how Canon was changed, and if Bungie had such great writers, they sure as hell didn't show it. And whether you think it does or it doesn't, it does send ripple effects to the other books. It's not just Fall of Reach that will be affected.

Eric Nylund was hired by Bungie to make the Fall of Reach in the first place. So I think he deserves some credibility.

Reach felt like a random, backwater farming colony with a few frigates and a random Spartan III team shoved in there for the hell of it. I think Eric Nylund did a much better job at creating a story than Bungie did with creating Reach.


I never said anything about them being tired of Halo being the reason they messed with the way events were before. What I said was the only way it suffered in quality was because it was rushed and they weren't putting their heart into like with the last games because they were tired of working on Halo.

I just said video games and books are complete different styles, you simply can't compare them in any affective way without sounding dumb. If you are so convinced that the other books, and not just TFoR, are direly affected by Halo: Reach, then please explain your line of reasoning.

And Nylund was not explicitly hired by Bungie, what I've seen has indicated that Nylund came to Microsoft asking to write a book for Halo.

That's what the book is for, Bungie did not need to show the full extent of Reach's might because of the book. And they clearly stated in interviews before the game even came out that none of the game would be taking place in areas near the settings of the book.

  • 01.20.2011 5:45 PM PDT
  • gamertag: An0nz
  • user homepage:

CoD is a good game, even if the Halo series are better in some aspects. Anyone who insults either is just bad in that game. Grow up.


Posted by: GrnDragn

Posted by: Alf stewert

Posted by: Mr Owen L
Halo Reach destroyed the canon in the Fall of Reach and First Strike there is no way to argue around it, REach fell in one day by a surprise covenant attack, The POA was in about to enter slipsapce or had just entered and was traveling away from reach after being refitted in an orbital shipyard before it was recalled to action and destroyed a few covenant ships before deploy almost all the spartan II's to defend the SMAC generators and John, Linda and james went to destroy the NAV core of another ship. After John returned to The POA, reach was beging to fall and Keyes initiated the Cole Protocol and cortana set co-ordinates for something that she had discovered from research the signal and rocks found on SO IV, she had no idea what it was at all. Reach fell within a few days and the remainin spartans headed to castle base and met up with halsey.
many think it's alot better this time round with reach falling in over month it means humanity fought well and contained it onto one continent you think hell well win but all hope is lost when 700 other ships show up, and about cortana well who said the infomation under sword base was the location of Halo? could of been a piece of to something else? it could of been data cortana had locked away untill she understood the forerunners?

POA on reach geez there was enough time for the POA to get onto reach(towed) and pick up the fragment. also perhaps we should wait for more canon info such as the comics showing the perspective of teh POA and Covenant?


Just because Reach fell in a day, doesn't mean Humanity "didn't fight hard". They were outnumbered 3(?) to 1, and they still put up a brilliant fight against the Fleet of Particular Justice. In fact, I think a majority of the Fleet of Particular Justice was lost.

Having Reach fall in a day is pretty believable, rather than holding out for a month against a vastly superior force.

And I'm sure the towing the POA would have been costly in terms of time. Hell, it might not have even worked. Stop trying to defend Bungie because they are simply Bungie!


I agree with you on the length of the battle. Reach falling in one day makes complete sense with the original covenant fleet (300 or so ships) in TFoR, and with the 750 or so ships in Halo: Reach, it makes it even more certain that Reach SHOULD HAVE fallen in one day.

To those arguing that the humans should have lasted longer...think about this. Humanity has almost always required a 3:1 odd when fighting in space against the Covenant. This means that, generally speaking, 1 covenant ship=3 UNSC ships.

In the original telling of TFoR, there were 300 Covenant ships attacking the planet, the UNSC only had 100-150. The covenant fleet basically had the equivalent of 900 UNSC ships, because each of the Covenant ships count for 3 UNSC ones. How do you expect that 150 to beat the 900?

In the Halo Reach version of TFoR, there were 750 ships by the end, which means they had the equivalent of 2250 UNSC ships at their disposal. How the hell can you convince yourself that the UNSC can last more than a day?

Yes, I'm fully aware that there are other variables, but none that would be enough to make things drastically different. I'm also aware that the fulll 750 covenant ships did not arrive until the last day, however, going by those numbers, all the Covenant needed would have been 30-50 ships to MATCH the UNSC's, and they definitely had way more than that in both versions.

Once the space battle is over, then Reach would be lost.

  • 01.20.2011 5:50 PM PDT


Posted by: Alf stewert

Posted by: GrnDragn

Posted by: Alf stewert

Posted by: haloplayer2kill


Posted by: GrnDragn
I don't know why we are debating this. Bungie did screw up the Canon. There are no "buts" about it. You Bungie fanboys will do anything to defend Bungie. This is blind zealotry!

And to all the people who debunk "The Fall of Reach" Novel, just be quiet. TFoR came out even before Combat Evolved! It is the first source of Halo Canon. Are there inconsistencies? Yes, but these can be fixed. Halo: Reach... I don't know.[/quote]
The Fall of Reach was not released until after Halo: Combat Evolved.

What are you talking about?[/quote]

Hello there, welcome to the battlefront, my friend, here's a flame retardant suit.

To GrnDragn:
I would assume that the Halo story was not very well developed when TFoR came out and that Nylund had to take many creative liberties with the duration of events and the dates of events as well as sequence, and that they have since been retconned in Bungie's own sources (aka Halo Story Bible) as they've shaped their universe.

And we are now seeing what Bungie says happened, and rather than just "saying to heck with the fanbase let's do whatever the -blam!- we want" they take the already existing story and move events and dates around or extend some to fit their story. And a lot of TFoR has been rendered inconsistent with other media in the Haloverse.

Contrary to what some are claiming TFoR is the only book affected by Reach. First Strike and Ghosts of Onyx are not affected by it in any way that negatively affects their whole story.


How can you say TFOR was the ONLY book affected?

When Master Chief returned to Reach in First Strike, he met the surviving spartan 2's of that battle. The battle was heavily mentioned in that book.

The survival of those spartans, and where they were, all happened because of many events in TFOR, that now seem to be non-canon. Some of these spartan 2's also show up in GoO.

Its the butterfly effect.

It's like bungie went back in time in the haloverse and changed events, you can't just expect those events to change and not anything else. Those changed events will affect a new changed future.

In this new future Hasley may never even go to Onyx, for there were many events that built up to that moment, ones built on each other. Certain events she participated in the book TFOR, seem to have become non-canon. Originally those events affect her events in First Strike and GoO (originally Hasley knew nothing about the spartan 3's during the fall of reach). Also in the new timeline a spartan 3 has survived, named jun. So think how this will affect the new future with Hasley's early knowledge of the Spartan 3 project as well as another spartan.

By having the battle of reach for more then 1 day is a HUGE problem, including the PoA being on Reach.

Think of Halo canon has a building under construction. Level's are built on previous levels, each affecting each other. Bungie has removed some of the original levels to that building.



bunge only redid repolished and Connected levels to fit it's been said a many times how it all fits and now people are just being to nitpicky


It still doesn't fit the original Canon! Honestly, are you so blinded by Bungie that you can't see that?

In the first 5 minutes of the game, the Canon was bent to all-hell. As the game progressed, it became worse and worse!
It does fit Why? cause it is a DIFFERENT perspective of a Story such as pulp ficiton had different perspective with different view holes, we see a different story a different light on a situation and we go crazy cause we dont think it fits, if you Guys would stop being A holes towards nitpicking everything you would see reach is a side story a behind the scenes of the start of the downfall of reach.

again you guys whine and winge about it BUT!! it's been explained you saying it hasnt is wrong the journal clears it up, But "no impossible" *Sign* Ill say it and continue to say it Reach is a side story to the book Oh and saying it needs to clear up when it has is stupid so stop saying it needs to be cleared up IT HAS!!


I can see you're a Fanboy, so this will never end. But will say it doesn't fit. The Covenant Fleet arrived on August 30. There was no advanced scout party that fought them for a month. The Covenant came in, wrecked the UNSC, but they too sustained heavy casualties, and won. All in one day.

To be a "side story" to the book, it has to work with the established canon of the book. It doesn't. The book says the Battle of Reach lated for a day, the game says one month. The Game says that the POA landed on Reach, the book says that not only was it not on the ground, it couldn't go in atmosphere!

Your "side story" theory has been debunked.

  • 01.20.2011 5:53 PM PDT
  •  | 
  • Senior Mythic Member

Ive read through this this thread seeing paragraph after paragraph about how Halo:Reach either Ruined Halo FOREVER!!!! or how it somehow fits. At this point i just dont care anymore. as long as the events of both can be put together in a slightly flexible timeline in my opinion the exact dates and time dont matter.

  • 01.20.2011 5:59 PM PDT




Posted by: Alf stewert

Posted by: GrnDragn

Posted by: Alf stewert

Posted by: haloplayer2kill


Posted by: GrnDragn
I don't know why we are debating this. Bungie did screw up the Canon. There are no "buts" about it. You Bungie fanboys will do anything to defend Bungie. This is blind zealotry!

And to all the people who debunk "The Fall of Reach" Novel, just be quiet. TFoR came out even before Combat Evolved! It is the first source of Halo Canon. Are there inconsistencies? Yes, but these can be fixed. Halo: Reach... I don't know.[/quote]
The Fall of Reach was not released until after Halo: Combat Evolved.

What are you talking about?[/quote]

Hello there, welcome to the battlefront, my friend, here's a flame retardant suit.

To GrnDragn:
I would assume that the Halo story was not very well developed when TFoR came out and that Nylund had to take many creative liberties with the duration of events and the dates of events as well as sequence, and that they have since been retconned in Bungie's own sources (aka Halo Story Bible) as they've shaped their universe.

And we are now seeing what Bungie says happened, and rather than just "saying to heck with the fanbase let's do whatever the -blam!- we want" they take the already existing story and move events and dates around or extend some to fit their story. And a lot of TFoR has been rendered inconsistent with other media in the Haloverse.

Contrary to what some are claiming TFoR is the only book affected by Reach. First Strike and Ghosts of Onyx are not affected by it in any way that negatively affects their whole story.[/quote]

How can you say TFOR was the ONLY book affected?

When Master Chief returned to Reach in First Strike, he met the surviving spartan 2's of that battle. The battle was heavily mentioned in that book.

The survival of those spartans, and where they were, all happened because of many events in TFOR, that now seem to be non-canon. Some of these spartan 2's also show up in GoO.

Its the butterfly effect.

It's like bungie went back in time in the haloverse and changed events, you can't just expect those events to change and not anything else. Those changed events will affect a new changed future.

In this new future Hasley may never even go to Onyx, for there were many events that built up to that moment, ones built on each other. Certain events she participated in the book TFOR, seem to have become non-canon. Originally those events affect her events in First Strike and GoO (originally Hasley knew nothing about the spartan 3's during the fall of reach). Also in the new timeline a spartan 3 has survived, named jun. So think how this will affect the new future with Hasley's early knowledge of the Spartan 3 project as well as another spartan.

By having the battle of reach for more then 1 day is a HUGE problem, including the PoA being on Reach.

Think of Halo canon has a building under construction. Level's are built on previous levels, each affecting each other. Bungie has removed some of the original levels to that building.



bunge only redid repolished and Connected levels to fit it's been said a many times how it all fits and now people are just being to nitpicky


It still doesn't fit the original Canon! Honestly, are you so blinded by Bungie that you can't see that?

In the first 5 minutes of the game, the Canon was bent to all-hell. As the game progressed, it became worse and worse!
It does fit Why? cause it is a DIFFERENT perspective of a Story such as pulp ficiton had different perspective with different view holes, we see a different story a different light on a situation and we go crazy cause we dont think it fits, if you Guys would stop being A holes towards nitpicking everything you would see reach is a side story a behind the scenes of the start of the downfall of reach.

again you guys whine and winge about it BUT!! it's been explained you saying it hasnt is wrong the journal clears it up, But "no impossible" *Sign* Ill say it and continue to say it Reach is a side story to the book Oh and saying it needs to clear up when it has is stupid so stop saying it needs to be cleared up IT HAS!!


I can see you're a Fanboy, so this will never end. But will say it doesn't fit. The Covenant Fleet arrived on August 30. There was no advanced scout party that fought them for a month. The Covenant came in, wrecked the UNSC, but they too sustained heavy casualties, and won. All in one day.

To be a "side story" to the book, it has to work with the established canon of the book. It doesn't. The book says the Battle of Reach lated for a day, the game says one month. The Game says that the POA landed on Reach, the book says that not only was it not on the ground, it couldn't go in atmosphere!

Your "side story" theory has been debunked.
the events are never mentioned in the book at all so the POA wasnt mentioned so it cant b e the fall of reach isnt mentioned with a scout party so it cannot be so your saying "the book didnt mention it so it cannot be?" and I am not a bungie fanboy at all

  • 01.20.2011 6:05 PM PDT


Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: GrnDragn
I don't know why we are debating this. Bungie did screw up the Canon. There are no "buts" about it. You Bungie fanboys will do anything to defend Bungie. This is blind zealotry!

And to all the people who debunk "The Fall of Reach" Novel, just be quiet. TFoR came out even before Combat Evolved! It is the first source of Halo Canon. Are there inconsistencies? Yes, but these can be fixed. Halo: Reach... I don't know.[/quote]

Posted By: C0mic Relief
The Fall of Reach was not released until after Halo: Combat Evolved.

What are you talking about?[/quote]

Posted By: OrderedComa
Hello there, welcome to the battlefront, my friend, here's a flame retardant suit.

To GrnDragn:
I would assume that the Halo story was not very well developed when TFoR came out and that Nylund had to take many creative liberties with the duration of events and the dates of events as well as sequence, and that they have since been retconned in Bungie's own sources (aka Halo Story Bible) as they've shaped their universe.

And we are now seeing what Bungie says happened, and rather than just "saying to heck with the fanbase let's do whatever the -blam!- we want" they take the already existing story and move events and dates around or extend some to fit their story. And a lot of TFoR has been rendered inconsistent with other media in the Haloverse.

Contrary to what some are claiming TFoR is the only book affected by Reach. First Strike and Ghosts of Onyx are not affected by it in any way that negatively affects their whole story.



After all this time, I don't know if that's ignorance or pure stubbornness that makes you say that. As I've said a long time ago and still hold to this day, what's important is the fact that Bungie changed certain facts that would have a domino effect on media written about and surrounding the entire events of the fall of Reach, though I will admit TFoR is the only novel to be heavily impacted. Btw, Nylund HAD the Halo Bible when he was writing it, and supposedly only had to make minor adjustments to fit the story with the game.

Sure, Bungie can do whatever they want with "their" story, but it doesn't mean that it will make it better. Nylund was a better writer for the series than they are.

And I should make clear; the canon is not shattered, only stretched and bent. The quality of the story, however, went down the drains with Halo Reach. Maybe the upcoming Halo media will revive it, but Reach was just disappointing.


Well I know I am not ignorant, though you can feel free to think what you want :P So I would have to say I am stubborn, which I actually am, and determined to not just sit around and start finding fault with every single little detail of the game because it changed the timeline around. How would it affect anything other than TFoR? As far as I've found in my readings of the Halo universe TFoR would be the only media affected by the changes in timeline, as everything else happens after the 30th or on that specific day.

I would definitely not say he is a better writer of the story than Bungie, especially since I've never read any sort of writing by them. And writing for video games and books are completely different, you can't really compare them. And besides, I would take anything stated by Bungie in any media relating to them over any information stated by an author in one of the books, seeing as Bungie would know their own story better than someone else.

I agree, it has been stretched, and hence evolved into something else, whether the new is better or not is a matter of opinion. I personally think the new is much better than what was, and I certainly don't think that Reach has brought the quality of Halo down at all. Maybe it seems a little bit forced and suffers slightly in that regard as Bungie has said they're tired of making only Halo.


Just because they were tired of Halo, doesn't mean that they had to destroy/bend the Canon to the extreme. And I think you will find that many don't like how Canon was changed, and if Bungie had such great writers, they sure as hell didn't show it. And whether you think it does or it doesn't, it does send ripple effects to the other books. It's not just Fall of Reach that will be affected.

Eric Nylund was hired by Bungie to make the Fall of Reach in the first place. So I think he deserves some credibility.

Reach felt like a random, backwater farming colony with a few frigates and a random Spartan III team shoved in there for the hell of it. I think Eric Nylund did a much better job at creating a story than Bungie did with creating Reach.


I never said anything about them being tired of Halo being the reason they messed with the way events were before. What I said was the only way it suffered in quality was because it was rushed and they weren't putting their heart into like with the last games because they were tired of working on Halo.

I just said video games and books are complete different styles, you simply can't compare them in any affective way without sounding dumb. If you are so convinced that the other books, and not just TFoR, are direly affected by Halo: Reach, then please explain your line of reasoning.

And Nylund was not explicitly hired by Bungie, what I've seen has indicated that Nylund came to Microsoft asking to write a book for Halo.

That's what the book is for, Bungie did not need to show the full extent of Reach's might because of the book. And they clearly stated in interviews before the game even came out that none of the game would be taking place in areas near the settings of the book.


Bungie has also stated multiple times that both the Books and the Games have the same level of Canon and coincide with eachother. The game does not coincide with the book. However, it seems that you will stretch the truth so long as it means the defense of your precious Hslo: Reach.

The book stated that the battle lasted a day. There were no Covenant on Reach before that. A lot of the UNSC fleet was away from Reach in the game and the SMACS seemed to be a one-time thing. In the book, Reach was heavily fortified.

And about the game affecting other books, there have been many logical posts stating how Reach can/will effect First Strike and Ghost of Onyx. You seemed to have ignored these.

I won't keep typing up these posts. Because I don't really like doing it on my iPod.

  • 01.20.2011 6:12 PM PDT

Posted by: JHOX
Here's my advice to you son, its a life lesson you shan't forget.

Some people are like Slinkies. They aren't good for anything in particular, but it still makes you smile when you push them down the stairs


Posted by: manwith
All the events from the novels still happened. Nothing was changed, just expanded.

It never made sense that the Covenant would blindly run into the SMACs protected by hundreds of ships without some sort of strategy.

I haven't read the new TFoR, but I'm pretty sure there was a significant amount of stuff changed in the book, if I remember some earlier posts correctly.

Oh, and that WAS the strategy. The book said that the covenant were willing to sacrifice ships so that the SMACs would be taken out while distracted. The planetary invasion assisted in the defeat of the SMACs.

EDIT: Well, the old book said that. If the new book is different from the old book regarding this matter, ignore this post.

[Edited on 01.20.2011 6:40 PM PST]

  • 01.20.2011 6:19 PM PDT


Posted by: Alf stewert
the events are never mentioned in the book at all so the POA wasnt mentioned so it cant b e the fall of reach isnt mentioned with a scout party so it cannot be so your saying "the book didnt mention it so it cannot be?" and I am not a bungie fanboy at all


The book did mention that the Pillar was not rated for in atmosphere, it never went to the surface, and the battle lasted for a day.

And you sure are acting like a Bungie Fanboy. "Bungie did nothing wrong", covers ears, "I can't hear you! Lalalalala!" "Bungie is always right." "You guys just whine!" "Lalalala!"

[Edited on 01.20.2011 6:28 PM PST]

  • 01.20.2011 6:24 PM PDT

Why thank you, I regard fanboy as a compliment, so feel free to "insult" me all you want, getting mad at something said over the internet by someone I don't know at all is just plain silly, and I will not rise to the bait :P good luck trying to rile me, it won't work.

It's not a theory, it is a fact stated by Bungie in one of the weekly updates, I am not going to waste my time digging through the archives however as I have much better things I'd rather be doing. But in case you want to look for yourself it was right around the time when the Beta came out, I can't remember if it was during or after.

Another thing Bungie has stated in regards to canon is that new material outranks old material in order of canon level. So obviously the game is how things have played out now, so the UNSC did last a month against the Covenant, there was a form of advance force sent ahead, and the Pillar of Autumn.

  • 01.20.2011 6:32 PM PDT


Posted by: GrnDragn

Posted by: Alf stewert
the events are never mentioned in the book at all so the POA wasnt mentioned so it cant b e the fall of reach isnt mentioned with a scout party so it cannot be so your saying "the book didnt mention it so it cannot be?" and I am not a bungie fanboy at all


The book did mention that the Pillar was not rated for in atmosphere, it never went to the surface, and the battle lasted for a day.

And you sure are acting like a Bungie Fanboy. "Bungie did nothing wrong", covers ears, "I can't hear you! Lalalalala!" "Bungie is always right." "You guys just whine!" "Lalalala!"
your the one with fingers in your ears it's been said a many of time how it fits you just want to be all big saying "I KNOW ALL ABOUT HALO CANON FOLLOW ME MY DESCIPLES!!" You yap on and on and your false, Your words are beneath you

  • 01.20.2011 6:37 PM PDT


Posted By:GrnDragn

Bungie has also stated multiple times that both the Books and the Games have the same level of Canon and coincide with eachother. The game does not coincide with the book. However, it seems that you will stretch the truth so long as it means the defense of your precious Hslo: Reach.

The book stated that the battle lasted a day. There were no Covenant on Reach before that. A lot of the UNSC fleet was away from Reach in the game and the SMACS seemed to be a one-time thing. In the book, Reach was heavily fortified.

And about the game affecting other books, there have been many logical posts stating how Reach can/will effect First Strike and Ghost of Onyx. You seemed to have ignored these.

I won't keep typing up these posts. Because I don't really like doing it on my iPod.


I have not seen any such posts yet, and the ones that I have seen, while logical and well thought out, pertain only to the SIII matter and completely ignore the new information given to us in Halsey's Journal.

  • 01.20.2011 6:38 PM PDT


Posted by: OrderedComa
Why thank you, I regard fanboy as a compliment, so feel free to "insult" me all you want, getting mad at something said over the internet by someone I don't know at all is just plain silly, and I will not rise to the bait :P good luck trying to rile me, it won't work.

It's not a theory, it is a fact stated by Bungie in one of the weekly updates, I am not going to waste my time digging through the archives however as I have much better things I'd rather be doing. But in case you want to look for yourself it was right around the time when the Beta came out, I can't remember if it was during or after.

Another thing Bungie has stated in regards to canon is that new material outranks old material in order of canon level. So obviously the game is how things have played out now, so the UNSC did last a month against the Covenant, there was a form of advance force sent ahead, and the Pillar of Autumn.


I was directing the "fanboy" comment at the one who called me "whiney" and "stupid". But go ahead.

So you are trying to prove our point. Bungie not only broke Canon, but they are also saying that the old Canon no longer exists. Which means Bungie took the lazy way out, and pulled a George Lucas.

I want proof that Bungie said that TFoR was no longer Canon.

[Edited on 01.20.2011 6:49 PM PST]

  • 01.20.2011 6:39 PM PDT


Posted by: Alf stewert

Posted by: GrnDragn

Posted by: Alf stewert
the events are never mentioned in the book at all so the POA wasnt mentioned so it cant b e the fall of reach isnt mentioned with a scout party so it cannot be so your saying "the book didnt mention it so it cannot be?" and I am not a bungie fanboy at all


The book did mention that the Pillar was not rated for in atmosphere, it never went to the surface, and the battle lasted for a day.

And you sure are acting like a Bungie Fanboy. "Bungie did nothing wrong", covers ears, "I can't hear you! Lalalalala!" "Bungie is always right." "You guys just whine!" "Lalalala!"
your the one with fingers in your ears it's been said a many of time how it fits you just want to be all big saying "I KNOW ALL ABOUT HALO CANON FOLLOW ME MY DESCIPLES!!" You yap on and on and your false, Your words are beneath you


Lol, the staple of a true Fanboy: Don't address the points, just flame and defend Bungie. You ran out of arguments and this is all you have left.

[Edited on 01.20.2011 6:47 PM PST]

  • 01.20.2011 6:44 PM PDT


Posted by: GrnDragn

Posted by: OrderedComa
Why thank you, I regard fanboy as a compliment, so feel free to "insult" me all you want, getting mad at something said over the internet by someone I don't know at all is just plain silly, and I will not rise to the bait :P good luck trying to rile me, it won't work.

It's not a theory, it is a fact stated by Bungie in one of the weekly updates, I am not going to waste my time digging through the archives however as I have much better things I'd rather be doing. But in case you want to look for yourself it was right around the time when the Beta came out, I can't remember if it was during or after.

Another thing Bungie has stated in regards to canon is that new material outranks old material in order of canon level. So obviously the game is how things have played out now, so the UNSC did last a month against the Covenant, there was a form of advance force sent ahead, and the Pillar of Autumn.


I was directing the "fanboy" comment at the one who called me "whiney" and "stupid". But go ahead.

So you are trying proved our point. Bungie not only broke Canon, but they are also saying that the old Canon no longer exists. Which means Bungie took the lazy way out, and pulled a George Lucas.


Ah, I thought it a little odd that you were calling me fanboy, as our disagreement has mostly been a fairly civil debate. I apologize for jumping to conclusions.

The whole "new supersedes old" rule has been around since Bungie was first asked about the canon ages ago, and as far as I know that's always been their policy.

  • 01.20.2011 6:50 PM PDT