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This topic has moved here: Subject: Halo Reach Did not Destroy the Canon
  • Subject: Halo Reach Did not Destroy the Canon
Subject: Halo Reach Did not Destroy the Canon


Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: GrnDragn

Posted by: OrderedComa
Why thank you, I regard fanboy as a compliment, so feel free to "insult" me all you want, getting mad at something said over the internet by someone I don't know at all is just plain silly, and I will not rise to the bait :P good luck trying to rile me, it won't work.

It's not a theory, it is a fact stated by Bungie in one of the weekly updates, I am not going to waste my time digging through the archives however as I have much better things I'd rather be doing. But in case you want to look for yourself it was right around the time when the Beta came out, I can't remember if it was during or after.

Another thing Bungie has stated in regards to canon is that new material outranks old material in order of canon level. So obviously the game is how things have played out now, so the UNSC did last a month against the Covenant, there was a form of advance force sent ahead, and the Pillar of Autumn.


I was directing the "fanboy" comment at the one who called me "whiney" and "stupid". But go ahead.

So you are trying proved our point. Bungie not only broke Canon, but they are also saying that the old Canon no longer exists. Which means Bungie took the lazy way out, and pulled a George Lucas.


Ah, I thought it a little odd that you were calling me fanboy, as our disagreement has mostly been a fairly civil debate. I apologize for jumping to conclusions.

The whole "new supersedes old" rule has been around since Bungie was first asked about the canon ages ago, and as far as I know that's always been their policy.


Hm, I still would like to see proof of this. Because Bungie's standing has been that the Books and games are both Canon, and they all coincide with eachother. Or at least they attempt to try.

  • 01.20.2011 6:54 PM PDT

I may be entirely wrong, I only assume this is so because I've seen people who've been around Halo way longer than I have say so on the forums in regards to questions about the canon of things.

What they usually say is that the books and games are equal, graphic novels and videos are second, and advertising and promotional things are third. New information takes priority to older material, and in small basically insignificant differences between games and books the games take priority. Like if the book said 8 feet tall, and the game said he 7'5", for example.

[Edited on 01.20.2011 7:04 PM PST]

  • 01.20.2011 7:03 PM PDT


Posted by: OrderedComa
I may be entirely wrong, I only assume this is so because I've seen people who've been around Halo way longer than I have say so on the forums in regards to questions about the canon of things.

What they usually say is that the books and games are equal, graphic novels and videos are second, and advertising and promotional things are third. New information takes priority to older material, and in small basically insignificant differences between games and books the games take priority. Like if the book said 8 feet tall, and the game said he 7'5", for example.


The thing is though, we aren't talking about "small things". Reach was a pretty big Canon changer.

  • 01.20.2011 7:10 PM PDT


Posted by: GrnDragn

Posted by: OrderedComa
I may be entirely wrong, I only assume this is so because I've seen people who've been around Halo way longer than I have say so on the forums in regards to questions about the canon of things.

What they usually say is that the books and games are equal, graphic novels and videos are second, and advertising and promotional things are third. New information takes priority to older material, and in small basically insignificant differences between games and books the games take priority. Like if the book said 8 feet tall, and the game said he 7'5", for example.


The thing is though, we aren't talking about "small things". Reach was a pretty big Canon changer.


I know, I was just listing everything regarding what I've seen in regards to the levels of canon, I know the new sequence of events in Reach, as well as the other new things, are not "small things".

  • 01.20.2011 7:14 PM PDT


Posted by: GrnDragn

Posted by: Alf stewert

Posted by: GrnDragn

Posted by: Alf stewert
the events are never mentioned in the book at all so the POA wasnt mentioned so it cant b e the fall of reach isnt mentioned with a scout party so it cannot be so your saying "the book didnt mention it so it cannot be?" and I am not a bungie fanboy at all


The book did mention that the Pillar was not rated for in atmosphere, it never went to the surface, and the battle lasted for a day.

And you sure are acting like a Bungie Fanboy. "Bungie did nothing wrong", covers ears, "I can't hear you! Lalalalala!" "Bungie is always right." "You guys just whine!" "Lalalala!"
your the one with fingers in your ears it's been said a many of time how it fits you just want to be all big saying "I KNOW ALL ABOUT HALO CANON FOLLOW ME MY DESCIPLES!!" You yap on and on and your false, Your words are beneath you


Lol, the staple of a true Fanboy: Don't address the points, just flame and defend Bungie. You ran out of arguments and this is all you have left.
Your words are beneath you :) your a blind hungry Fanboy who doesnt want another view on a story.

[Edited on 01.20.2011 7:56 PM PST]

  • 01.20.2011 7:44 PM PDT

Working his way up.

You cannot make a fortress out of an entire planet. It's simply not practical. While I agree that Reach should have been portrayed a bit more militaristic, I do not think that the game did harm to the mental image of Reach I have in my head.

  • 01.20.2011 8:22 PM PDT

Posted by: ONIAgent150
You cannot make a fortress out of an entire planet. It's simply not practical. While I agree that Reach should have been portrayed a bit more militaristic, I do not think that the game did harm to the mental image of Reach I have in my head.
Reach was a fortress as much as it could have been. It was only a military installation, the UNSC's off-Earth headquarters. Outside the UNSC bases and other presence, there was wilderness. no civlians besides a few scientists and specialists, including Halsey.

The Covenant only went for the UNSC areas in the novel because that was all that was there, and it was directly over a Forerunner artifact.


Also, at this time, I'm unsure if alf is a fanboi or just a very persistent troll.

  • 01.20.2011 9:59 PM PDT
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It did not Destroy the Canon? I what way I must ask?

The thing that bothered me the most was seen PoA on ther ground.

Even if they managed to throw a Hadouken (a colloquial saying where I come from) into making the timing of PoA's landing fit, it's still does not makes sense because the book (FoR) clearly states that ships of that size have to be build and assambled in orbit because they could not sustain their own weight in a planets gravity. The preasure due to the massive weight would crush the ship to the ground.

Yes... there are many things that I did not like about the game, but I was realy looking to have a space battle in order to defend PoA and cover its scape to slipspace. But noooo... Bunjie decided that would be too predictable.

Hey Bunjie, you want an unpredictable idea for Master Chief's backstory? How about he was an undesired kid of Dr. Halsey and young Preston Cole. But since Halsey was so focus in her work she decided to have an abortion. But little (soon to be) Jhon fought for his live (out of the woumb) and due to his genetic superiority and againts all odds struggle his way out of the waist basket and survived! Later to be adopted by a family of farmers in Eridanus II.

You see Bunjie? It is posible to be unpredictable without crapping on the canon!

  • 01.20.2011 11:01 PM PDT

Signatures are for squares.

After reading the last three pages of this thread, I've had to quell my own anger and force myself not to post for fear of getting myself banned. I honestly can't believe the stupidity some of you have claiming that canon is perfectly intact. Then, when shown proof it is not, you simply ignore the breaks and your fanboyism for Bungie shows it'self. (Alf...)


Posted by: OrderedComa

Contrary to what some are claiming TFoR is the only book affected by Reach. First Strike and Ghosts of Onyx are not affected by it in any way that negatively affects their whole story.


NO.

Hell. First Strike was effected even more than Fall of Reach. Everything in Fall of Reach dated before July 24th remains fine. But every event afterwards was been changed. First Strike follows Red Team heavily, but their entire mission on Reach was changed! Hell, even Reach(the game) has Red team fighting on the surface before August 30th!

EVERYTHING regarding Reach and the Spartan II's after July 24th was changed thanks to Halo Reach.

And, because of the errors in Halo: Reach affecting First Strike, it's also going to completely change the events from Ghosts of Oynx.

If you can't see that everything in Halo lore post July 24th(I'll even give, the 'official' invasion didn't start until August 14th, right?) Is completely ruined.

  • 01.21.2011 1:25 AM PDT
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Posted by: N00b Xtrmnatr

Posted by: manwith
All the events from the novels still happened. Nothing was changed, just expanded.

It never made sense that the Covenant would blindly run into the SMACs protected by hundreds of ships without some sort of strategy.

I haven't read the new TFoR, but I'm pretty sure there was a significant amount of stuff changed in the book, if I remember some earlier posts correctly.

Oh, and that WAS the strategy. The book said that the covenant were willing to sacrifice ships so that the SMACs would be taken out while distracted. The planetary invasion assisted in the defeat of the SMACs.

EDIT: Well, the old book said that. If the new book is different from the old book regarding this matter, ignore this post.


I haven't noticed anything that was actually changed what was told in the books. Expanding sure, but something what was told in the books happening was not disregarded. At least not to my knowledge.

The planet still fell on August 30, like it was supposed to, so I don't understand the cry from some people.

Even if the PoA maybe hadn't been ''rated for atmosphere flight'' that doesn't mean it ain't possible.

  • 01.21.2011 2:03 AM PDT

Signatures are for squares.

Posted by: manwith

I haven't noticed anything that was actually changed what was told in the books. Expanding sure, but something what was told in the books happening was not disregarded. At least not to my knowledge.


Oh, maybe the Covenant showing up on the planet FULL FORCE, and the entire UNSC being recalled to Reach to fight them off, where in the book the UNSC didn't have any idea the Covenant were coming and caught them completely off guard on the 30th. And it was at that point they tried to call the fleet back to Reach.

The planet still fell on August 30, like it was supposed to, so I don't understand the cry from some people.

Because the entire battle was changed from being one day, to over a month. The fate of the Spartan II's we followed in FoR, FS, and GoO now all have different fates and the events that occurred are now completely changed. Hell, even the way Chief is supposed to end up at Halo is completely different now. He no longer went on that space op with Linda and James because for some reason he was still on the ground.

Even if the PoA maybe hadn't been ''rated for atmosphere flight'' that doesn't mean it ain't possible.

...That's exactly what it means. Did you not see it crash on Halo?

[Edited on 01.21.2011 2:23 AM PST]

  • 01.21.2011 2:22 AM PDT
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Oh, maybe the Covenant showing up on the planet FULL FORCE, and the entire UNSC being recalled to Reach to fight them off, where in the book the UNSC didn't have any idea the Covenant were coming and caught them completely off guard on the 30th. And it was at that point they tried to call the fleet back to Reach.

Full force can mean anything. It could be 12 ships, 314 or 750 sized fleet invading Reach. On August 12 around 60% of UNSC fleet was enroute to Reach and we can assume the Pillar of Autumn was not one of them. As for the UNSC not knowing about it, that's subjective. Who didn't know? Noble Team, ONI or Master Chief? The first two at least knew what was going on on Reach. Also, the Covenant invasion of Reach was supposed to be secret by ONI prior to August 30, or so I hear.

Because the entire battle was changed from being one day, to over a month. The fate of the Spartan II's we followed in FoR, FS, and GoO now all have different fates and the events that occurred are now completely changed. Hell, even the way Chief is supposed to end up at Halo is completely different now. He no longer went on that space op with Linda and James because for some reason he was still on the ground.

Excuse me...? Blue Team's space op happened around 6:15 while the last mission of Halo: Reach takes place 16:57. There was like 10 hours for the Pillar of Autumn to land from space to Aszod ship-breaking yards after dropping Red Team to Reach's surface and picking up John and Linda from Circumference mission. First Strike happened exactly as it was supposed to.


...That's exactly what it means. Did you not see it crash on Halo?


I'd expect it to crash land on Halo after taking multiple direct plasma torpedo hits.




[Edited on 01.21.2011 4:23 AM PST]

  • 01.21.2011 3:43 AM PDT


Posted by: chickenlittle
Posted by: ONIAgent150
You cannot make a fortress out of an entire planet. It's simply not practical. While I agree that Reach should have been portrayed a bit more militaristic, I do not think that the game did harm to the mental image of Reach I have in my head.
Reach was a fortress as much as it could have been. It was only a military installation, the UNSC's off-Earth headquarters. Outside the UNSC bases and other presence, there was wilderness. no civlians besides a few scientists and specialists, including Halsey.

The Covenant only went for the UNSC areas in the novel because that was all that was there, and it was directly over a Forerunner artifact.


Also, at this time, I'm unsure if alf is a fanboi or just a very persistent troll.
so i disagree with you and others about your opinion and give reason for my own and I am labelled a troll

  • 01.21.2011 4:15 AM PDT


Posted by: privet caboose
After reading the last three pages of this thread, I've had to quell my own anger and force myself not to post for fear of getting myself banned. I honestly can't believe the stupidity some of you have claiming that canon is perfectly intact. Then, when shown proof it is not, you simply ignore the breaks and your fanboyism for Bungie shows it'self. (Alf...)


Posted by: OrderedComa

Contrary to what some are claiming TFoR is the only book affected by Reach. First Strike and Ghosts of Onyx are not affected by it in any way that negatively affects their whole story.


NO.

Hell. First Strike was effected even more than Fall of Reach. Everything in Fall of Reach dated before July 24th remains fine. But every event afterwards was been changed. First Strike follows Red Team heavily, but their entire mission on Reach was changed! Hell, even Reach(the game) has Red team fighting on the surface before August 30th!

EVERYTHING regarding Reach and the Spartan II's after July 24th was changed thanks to Halo Reach.

And, because of the errors in Halo: Reach affecting First Strike, it's also going to completely change the events from Ghosts of Oynx.

If you can't see that everything in Halo lore post July 24th(I'll even give, the 'official' invasion didn't start until August 14th, right?) Is completely ruined.
I am sorry but your trying to hard you have a great knowledge of Halos story but do not bring up halseys journal which is canon why?

and red team well you fail I am sorry but we are not told the dates they fight on and since it's firefight and online play that has the radio transmissions one can assume that they take place on August the 30th, call me abungie fanboy a troll but I am not you cant prove I am either so stop with the false acusations.

  • 01.21.2011 4:23 AM PDT
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How does Reach have Errors? Since Bungies canon policy is New overwrites old and the game is the newest story doesnt that make the Fall of Reach's description of the battle not canon anymore?

  • 01.21.2011 5:08 AM PDT

Actually, it was The Fall of Reach that destroyed canon. Games take precedence over books, regardless of when it was released. Ergo, Halo: Reach is canon, and the book breaks from it.

  • 01.21.2011 5:09 AM PDT

Signatures are for squares.


[/quote]
Full force can mean anything. It could be 12 ships, 314 or 750 sized fleet invading Reach. On August 12 around 60% of UNSC fleet was enroute to Reach and we can assume the Pillar of Autumn was not one of them. As for the UNSC not knowing about it, that's subjective. Who didn't know? Noble Team, ONI or Master Chief? The first two at least knew what was going on on Reach. Also, the Covenant invasion of Reach was supposed to be secret by ONI prior to August 30, or so I hear.


...There was hundreds of ships there on the 12th. And no, it wasn't a secret. The covenant were invading CITIES and glassing the planet as early as August 18th(When New Alexandria was invaded.) There was no secrecy anymore when millions of people are being killed on the military homeworld. People in that city, and other cities had to of been addressed by the UNSC. And Spartans were deployed (Red Team included) on August 23rd. This is according to Jun who says "Gauntlet, Red, and Echo teams" To which Kate replies "what are spartans doing in defensive positions." Red's involvement(and changes to their story in first strike) are later seen via the radio's found on the multiplayer and firefight levels. One says, "You ever seen 11 spartans take on wraiths?" Beta company was said to have 11 spartans.


Excuse me...? Blue Team's space op happened around 6:15 while the last mission of Halo: Reach takes place 16:57. There was like 10 hours for the Pillar of Autumn to land from space to Aszod ship-breaking yards after dropping Red Team to Reach's surface and picking up John and Linda from Circumference mission. First Strike happened exactly as it was supposed to.

That's such a huge insult to captain Keyes. You can never try and justify Keyes picking Spartan II's off the ground(since they were fighting as early as the 23rd) then sending them all back down to the planet in a pelican through a huge force that they would never survive through, and then land the damn ship on the planet hours later when he could've saved 22 spartan lives by just landing with them. It doesn't make ANY sense at all. The Space op never happened, because the pillar didn't leave the dock until Six delivered Cortana.



I'd expect it to crash land on Halo after taking multiple direct plasma torpedo hits.


They didn't actually fire plasma torpedos at it, did they? Wasn't it ordered not to attack the Pillar with plasma rounds for fear of damaging Halo? They only sent boarding craft on it.

  • 01.21.2011 5:22 AM PDT


Posted by: Alf stewert

Posted by: GrnDragn

Posted by: Alf stewert

Posted by: GrnDragn

Posted by: Alf stewert
the events are never mentioned in the book at all so the POA wasnt mentioned so it cant b e the fall of reach isnt mentioned with a scout party so it cannot be so your saying "the book didnt mention it so it cannot be?" and I am not a bungie fanboy at all


The book did mention that the Pillar was not rated for in atmosphere, it never went to the surface, and the battle lasted for a day.

And you sure are acting like a Bungie Fanboy. "Bungie did nothing wrong", covers ears, "I can't hear you! Lalalalala!" "Bungie is always right." "You guys just whine!" "Lalalala!"
your the one with fingers in your ears it's been said a many of time how it fits you just want to be all big saying "I KNOW ALL ABOUT HALO CANON FOLLOW ME MY DESCIPLES!!" You yap on and on and your false, Your words are beneath you


Lol, the staple of a true Fanboy: Don't address the points, just flame and defend Bungie. You ran out of arguments and this is all you have left.
Your words are beneath you :) your a blind hungry Fanboy who doesnt want another view on a story.


And so your trolling continues...

  • 01.21.2011 5:36 AM PDT


Posted by: Muechelmoerder
Actually, it was The Fall of Reach that destroyed canon. Games take precedence over books, regardless of when it was released. Ergo, Halo: Reach is canon, and the book breaks from it.


No, that's a crappy cop-out. Bungie broke Canon with Reach. TFoR was established Canon first. Then Bungie decided to change the whole thing because they wanted to appeal to the masses (That's all Halo: Reach is).

  • 01.21.2011 5:40 AM PDT
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cop out thats been bungies policy from DAY 1!

  • 01.21.2011 5:46 AM PDT
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Well, one of the female marines/pilot during Exodus says the CITY has been under siege for the last 5 days and we saw max. 5 corvettes in the air. That honestly wouldn't have happened with hundreds of ships in orbit since so many civilians were evacuated from the city.

Red Team's involved via radio is believed to be taken place on August 30. I don't think Jun or Kat ever have mentioned Red Team as I have played a lot of Reach and never encountered that.

We can see the Autumn taking massive hit here

  • 01.21.2011 5:48 AM PDT


Posted by: DrMod
cop out thats been bungies policy from DAY 1!


Where's your proof of that? As far as I know, Bungie said that the books and games go together. But if what you said is true, then they took the lazy way out and retconned to appeal to the masses.

  • 01.21.2011 5:52 AM PDT

Signatures are for squares.

Posted by: manwith

Red Team's involved via radio is believed to be taken place on August 30. I don't think Jun or Kat ever have mentioned Red Team as I have played a lot of Reach and never encountered that.


Then you never payed attention.

40 seconds in. Listen to Jun. "Sir, that true about Gauntlet, Red, and Echo teams being assigned to civilian evac ops?

  • 01.21.2011 6:01 AM PDT


Posted by: privet caboose
Posted by: manwith

Red Team's involved via radio is believed to be taken place on August 30. I don't think Jun or Kat ever have mentioned Red Team as I have played a lot of Reach and never encountered that.


Then you never payed attention.

40 seconds in. Listen to Jun. "Sir, that true about Gauntlet, Red, and Echo teams being assigned to civilian evac ops?


Good catch. BTW, did the new version of TFoR change anything?

  • 01.21.2011 6:12 AM PDT


Posted by: privet caboose
Posted by: manwith

Red Team's involved via radio is believed to be taken place on August 30. I don't think Jun or Kat ever have mentioned Red Team as I have played a lot of Reach and never encountered that.


Then you never payed attention.

40 seconds in. Listen to Jun. "Sir, that true about Gauntlet, Red, and Echo teams being assigned to civilian evac ops?
thats most likely a spartan 3 spartan red team or such but we wont no untill it is made clear we just have to sit and wait perhaps the halo reach comic being done from the POA perspective and covenant perspective

[Edited on 01.21.2011 6:21 AM PST]

  • 01.21.2011 6:20 AM PDT