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  • Subject: Halo Reach Did not Destroy the Canon
Subject: Halo Reach Did not Destroy the Canon
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Simply a team called Red could be anything, either Jun being mistaken, or a team led by ONI consisting Spartan-II/IIIs.

Either way, I don't think it's any significant even if Red Team have had small operations on Reach before preparing for Operation: Red Flag.

  • 01.21.2011 6:27 AM PDT

Signatures are for squares.

There is no "Spartan III Red Team."

Spartan companies each have a specific designation.

Spartan II's: Colors

-Red
-Blue
-Green
-Black
-Gray

Spartan III Alpha: Animals

-Team Wolf Pack

Spartan III Beta: Military

-Echo
-Foxtrot
-India
-Xray
-Romeo

Spartan III Gamma: Blades/Swords

-Gladius
-Katana
-Saber



  • 01.21.2011 6:50 AM PDT

Siemper Fi,
Captain Dominus USMC
Headquarters Company Commander


Posted by: MasterSin

Posted by: MegaMuffin16
As much as I love the Halo: Reach story, I'm afraid it did destroy canon.

Very simple changes by Bungie could've easily solved many problems.


I agree, the campaign was amazing but it totally breaks canon in all levels, HUGE disappointment from Bungie.


I love the story and I love the games. A lot can be written off and the understanding of words can make what seems like breaking of canon not. However they did break it. The timeline of the whole story can be justified however the timeline of individual groups or persons at certain locations cannot. Huge disappointment too but I still like them and the story.

Also next person who says "where are the nukes" or "the weapons system XYZ was on a blah blah blah". Clearly you know nothing about real weapon systems development and deployment. Everything has a capability and limitation so don't a Trekky.

  • 01.21.2011 10:17 AM PDT
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"Time was your ally human. But now it has abandoned you. The Forerunners....have returned. And this tomb... is now yours". - The Didact


Posted by: DominusMA

Posted by: MasterSin

Posted by: MegaMuffin16
As much as I love the Halo: Reach story, I'm afraid it did destroy canon.

Very simple changes by Bungie could've easily solved many problems.


I agree, the campaign was amazing but it totally breaks canon in all levels, HUGE disappointment from Bungie.


I love the story and I love the games. A lot can be written off and the understanding of words can make what seems like breaking of canon not. However they did break it. The timeline of the whole story can be justified however the timeline of individual groups or persons at certain locations cannot. Huge disappointment too but I still like them and the story.

Also next person who says "where are the nukes" or "the weapons system XYZ was on a blah blah blah". Clearly you know nothing about real weapon systems development and deployment. Everything has a capability and limitation so don't a Trekky.


Really?

-It's a military planet
-They have +150 ships,and each UNSC ship got 3 nukes
-They had nukes during the fall of reach novel and first strike
-It's a jsut a stupid reason of bungie to put that spacebattle level

In entire Reach story doesn't makes sense ,it makes the UNSC and covies look like the largest retards.
Just how Noble team acted like ODST's in fancy armor and how a supercarrier couldn't see the savanahh attacking the corvetter,ever heard of radar and sensors?

343 got a choice to either eclare the fall of reach or the game non canon.

I know there is that games>>>>>>>books,but really tha Halo Reach story is such a big -blam!- towards the canon and doesn't makes any sense.So it took the covies +30 days to conquer Reach?I thought that one covie ship could take out 2 UNSC ships and the covies outnumbered the UNSC

The fall of reach(book version) did made sense,massive battle,epic,....

I'm happy that Bungie left Halo.

Bungie was once epic storytellers ,but they fail hard in these current days.I see 343 industries doing better
*points at evolutions,cryptum,...*

  • 01.21.2011 11:19 AM PDT
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"Time was your ally human. But now it has abandoned you. The Forerunners....have returned. And this tomb... is now yours". - The Didact

And how the -blam!- did a Halycon class cruiser even landed on Reach??That ship can't fly in the goddamn atmosphere.Unless bungie is going to claim that the autumn is built in aszod,then they even ruin the Halo Wars canon as the autumln was on arcadia.

I pray to god that 343 industries will declare that game non canon.The canon problem between the halo books and Reach can't be fixed
Solution:declare Reach non canon.

I'm fine with no noble team in the Halo canon

  • 01.21.2011 11:24 AM PDT


Posted by: privet caboose
After reading the last three pages of this thread, I've had to quell my own anger and force myself not to post for fear of getting myself banned. I honestly can't believe the stupidity some of you have claiming that canon is perfectly intact. Then, when shown proof it is not, you simply ignore the breaks and your fanboyism for Bungie shows it'self. (Alf...)


Posted by: OrderedComa

Contrary to what some are claiming TFoR is the only book affected by Reach. First Strike and Ghosts of Onyx are not affected by it in any way that negatively affects their whole story.


NO.

Hell. First Strike was effected even more than Fall of Reach. Everything in Fall of Reach dated before July 24th remains fine. But every event afterwards was been changed. First Strike follows Red Team heavily, but their entire mission on Reach was changed! Hell, even Reach(the game) has Red team fighting on the surface before August 30th!

EVERYTHING regarding Reach and the Spartan II's after July 24th was changed thanks to Halo Reach.

And, because of the errors in Halo: Reach affecting First Strike, it's also going to completely change the events from Ghosts of Oynx.

If you can't see that everything in Halo lore post July 24th(I'll even give, the 'official' invasion didn't start until August 14th, right?) Is completely ruined.


There is only one thing I see that can even affect TFoR, and that is, depending on what new information we get, how Red Team got to the generators. If the Autumn was in Aszod the entire time, then they were simply sent to the generators and those who died were killed off in the battle. That is the only thing that has any indication of being affected, the rest of the novel is not affected in any way shape or form.

  • 01.21.2011 1:21 PM PDT


Posted by: hotshot revan II
And how the -blam!- did a Halycon class cruiser even landed on Reach??That ship can't fly in the goddamn atmosphere.Unless bungie is going to claim that the autumn is built in aszod,then they even ruin the Halo Wars canon as the autumln was on arcadia.

I pray to god that 343 industries will declare that game non canon.The canon problem between the halo books and Reach can't be fixed
Solution:declare Reach non canon.

I'm fine with no noble team in the Halo canon


Me too. However, I don't think the Pillar of Autumn was actually on Arcadia. Just laying in orbit.

343 has a choice: declare wither TFoR or Reach as non-canon. The problem with declaring the book non-canon, however, is why re-print them with almost nothing changed if TFoR is no longer Canon? Halo: Reach just created problems.

  • 01.21.2011 1:22 PM PDT


Posted by: privet caboose
There is no "Spartan III Red Team."

Spartan companies each have a specific designation.

Spartan II's: Colors

-Red
-Blue
-Green
-Black
-Gray

Spartan III Alpha: Animals

-Team Wolf Pack

Spartan III Beta: Military

-Echo
-Foxtrot
-India
-Xray
-Romeo

Spartan III Gamma: Blades/Swords

-Gladius
-Katana
-Saber





If that's the case, then how do you explain one of the teams Jun mentions being Gauntlet? And the naming conventions only apply to the larger, as a whole, team, for instance after Red Team landed in FS they divided up into sub-teams, and none of them had colors.

And as for the radio transmission, they have no real bearing on the canon as a whole, sure they might give little factual insights into things, but they're really just easter eggs, especially since they're in the Multiplayer and FF maps and not in the campaign.

  • 01.21.2011 1:25 PM PDT

[bPosted By:[/b] privet caboose
...There was hundreds of ships there on the 12th. And no, it wasn't a secret. The covenant were invading CITIES and glassing the planet as early as August 18th(When New Alexandria was invaded.) There was no secrecy anymore when millions of people are being killed on the military homeworld. People in that city, and other cities had to of been addressed by the UNSC. And Spartans were deployed (Red Team included) on August 23rd. This is according to Jun who says "Gauntlet, Red, and Echo teams" To which Kate replies "what are spartans doing in defensive positions." Red's involvement(and changes to their story in first strike) are later seen via the radio's found on the multiplayer and firefight levels. One says, "You ever seen 11 spartans take on wraiths?" Beta company was said to have 11 spartans.


There were not hundreds of ships there on the 12th, we never see hundreds of ships until the cutscene after the Long Night of Solace is destroyed the Fleet of Particular Justice warps in. And up until Long Night of Solace decloaked and started launching forces and reigning death down everywhere the invasion probably was kept secret, if they were even trying to.
Has it been stated by Bungie, or someone else in the know, that it's the Red Team being referred to in that cutscene? Or is everyone just assuming?

That's such a huge insult to captain Keyes. You can never try and justify Keyes picking Spartan II's off the ground(since they were fighting as early as the 23rd) then sending them all back down to the planet in a pelican through a huge force that they would never survive through, and then land the damn ship on the planet hours later when he could've saved 22 spartan lives by just landing with them. It doesn't make ANY sense at all. The Space op never happened, because the pillar didn't leave the dock until Six delivered Cortana.

That is rather presumptuous of you to claim that the Circumference Op never occurred, as it was pointed out, there is almost twelve whole hours between when Red Team goes planetside and when the final mission of Reach takes place. There is no way for you to know, unless someone who actually has authority over canon, whether or not the Autumn was in Aszod the whole time or had put down there at some point during the space battle.

They didn't actually fire plasma torpedos at it, did they? Wasn't it ordered not to attack the Pillar with plasma rounds for fear of damaging Halo? They only sent boarding craft on it.

The cutscene at the end of Pillar of Autumn level in Halo:CE clearly shows Plasma weapons of some sort blasting the Autumn after Chief is out of there. And it has been stated that over small difference between books and games, such as something like whether the Covenant were shooting at the Autumn or not, the fact is to deffer to the game as the proper source.

  • 01.21.2011 1:57 PM PDT

Do the stories being told suddenly become crappier because of a few date mishaps? No. So what's the big deal?

  • 01.21.2011 2:04 PM PDT


Posted by: AlphaZero X
Do the stories being told suddenly become crappier because of a few date mishaps? No. So what's the big deal?


A few date mishaps? They dragged the whole time line out for a month! And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

  • 01.21.2011 2:10 PM PDT

Halsey's journal barely addresses jack squat as Chris Farley might say.. all iot shows is that jun got killed, if he's her guard, and that halsey is captured and is with the covenant but still in cryo in captivity. the other things were very hard to understand except the Elite's message to High charity.. leaves many holes such as the pillar of Autumn on Reach and chief's lack of knowledge or worry at the fact that there are S IIIs on Reach as they were all killed except tom and lucy.

Conclusion- Halsey's journal will live in a van down by the river with matt foley

  • 01.21.2011 2:35 PM PDT


Posted by: GrnDragn

Posted by: AlphaZero X
Do the stories being told suddenly become crappier because of a few date mishaps? No. So what's the big deal?


A few date mishaps? They dragged the whole time line out for a month! And that's just the tip of the iceberg.


So what? Fall of Reach was written without the foreknowledge that the Halo Universe was going to get much much bigger. It's still a good book. Would you rather them just write off the whole novel series because of some inconsistencies?
Look at Robotech. 21 books. All completely disregarded so they could destroy that entire canon by making a crappy 90 minute movie that sucked, badly. That was a bit drastic, I thought. Reach vs.FoR hiccups weren't that big of deal to me. You guys are so hung up on the "Reach fell in one day" being changed, when it's been made fairly clear throughout the rest of the novels that the Covy ain't wiping out any planet completely in 24 hours, especially if it has Forerunner toys on it.

It's not like they started saying the Spartans get their powers from Midochlorians all of the sudden.

  • 01.21.2011 2:42 PM PDT

Lets Boogie


Posted by: AlphaZero X

Posted by: GrnDragn

Posted by: AlphaZero X
Do the stories being told suddenly become crappier because of a few date mishaps? No. So what's the big deal?


A few date mishaps? They dragged the whole time line out for a month! And that's just the tip of the iceberg.


So what? Fall of Reach was written without the foreknowledge that the Halo Universe was going to get much much bigger. It's still a good book. Would you rather them just write off the whole novel series because of some inconsistencies?
Look at Robotech. 21 books. All completely disregarded so they could destroy that entire canon by making a crappy 90 minute movie that sucked, badly. That was a bit drastic, I thought. Reach vs.FoR hiccups weren't that big of deal to me. You guys are so hung up on the "Reach fell in one day" being changed, when it's been made fairly clear throughout the rest of the novels that the Covy ain't wiping out any planet completely in 24 hours, especially if it has Forerunner toys on it.

It's not like they started saying the Spartans get their powers from Midochlorians all of the sudden.


If you read TFOR you would know the covenant DID NOT glass the whole planet, most of it, however they left the places with the "forerunner toys" untouched by their weapons.

PS: Jedi don't get their powers from Midochlorians either, they get it from the Force, the midochlorians are just used to help them access the force, the midochlorians are therefore not the force itself. I don't know why many Star Wars fan went psycho when they heard about midochlorians.

  • 01.21.2011 2:50 PM PDT


Posted by: AlphaZero X

Posted by: GrnDragn

Posted by: AlphaZero X
Do the stories being told suddenly become crappier because of a few date mishaps? No. So what's the big deal?


A few date mishaps? They dragged the whole time line out for a month! And that's just the tip of the iceberg.


So what? Fall of Reach was written without the foreknowledge that the Halo Universe was going to get much much bigger. It's still a good book. Would you rather them just write off the whole novel series because of some inconsistencies?
Look at Robotech. 21 books. All completely disregarded so they could destroy that entire canon by making a crappy 90 minute movie that sucked, badly. That was a bit drastic, I thought. Reach vs.FoR hiccups weren't that big of deal to me. You guys are so hung up on the "Reach fell in one day" being changed, when it's been made fairly clear throughout the rest of the novels that the Covy ain't wiping out any planet completely in 24 hours, especially if it has Forerunner toys on it.

It's not like they started saying the Spartans get their powers from Midochlorians all of the sudden.


They changed so much more than the dates. It's not just the time, it was the fact that it disregards previously established Halo Canon, all so that they could make a mediocre campaign.

  • 01.21.2011 2:56 PM PDT


Posted by: GrnDragn

Posted by: AlphaZero X

Posted by: GrnDragn

Posted by: AlphaZero X
Do the stories being told suddenly become crappier because of a few date mishaps? No. So what's the big deal?


A few date mishaps? They dragged the whole time line out for a month! And that's just the tip of the iceberg.


So what? Fall of Reach was written without the foreknowledge that the Halo Universe was going to get much much bigger. It's still a good book. Would you rather them just write off the whole novel series because of some inconsistencies?
Look at Robotech. 21 books. All completely disregarded so they could destroy that entire canon by making a crappy 90 minute movie that sucked, badly. That was a bit drastic, I thought. Reach vs.FoR hiccups weren't that big of deal to me. You guys are so hung up on the "Reach fell in one day" being changed, when it's been made fairly clear throughout the rest of the novels that the Covy ain't wiping out any planet completely in 24 hours, especially if it has Forerunner toys on it.

It's not like they started saying the Spartans get their powers from Midochlorians all of the sudden.


They changed so much more than the dates. It's not just the time, it was the fact that it disregards previously established Halo Canon, all so that they could make a mediocre campaign.


There is nothing disregarded at all, the date of the Fleet of Justice's arrival is pushed back to the 14th, and the UNSC lasts two weeks against it. Granted, there are some things that need adjusting with this new timeline, such as the dates involved with the Red Flag Op, but nothing is disregarded, and much of the events of TFoR can, and still do, happen.

And whether the campaign felt mediocre or not is a simple matter of opinion, no two people will completely agree. I feel the campaign was a worthy sequel and throwback to Halo:CE.

  • 01.21.2011 3:22 PM PDT


Posted by: haloplayer2kill

Posted by: AlphaZero X

Posted by: GrnDragn

Posted by: AlphaZero X
Do the stories being told suddenly become crappier because of a few date mishaps? No. So what's the big deal?


A few date mishaps? They dragged the whole time line out for a month! And that's just the tip of the iceberg.


So what? Fall of Reach was written without the foreknowledge that the Halo Universe was going to get much much bigger. It's still a good book. Would you rather them just write off the whole novel series because of some inconsistencies?
Look at Robotech. 21 books. All completely disregarded so they could destroy that entire canon by making a crappy 90 minute movie that sucked, badly. That was a bit drastic, I thought. Reach vs.FoR hiccups weren't that big of deal to me. You guys are so hung up on the "Reach fell in one day" being changed, when it's been made fairly clear throughout the rest of the novels that the Covy ain't wiping out any planet completely in 24 hours, especially if it has Forerunner toys on it.

It's not like they started saying the Spartans get their powers from Midochlorians all of the sudden.


If you read TFOR you would know the covenant DID NOT glass the whole planet, most of it, however they left the places with the "forerunner toys" untouched by their weapons.

PS: Jedi don't get their powers from Midochlorians either, they get it from the Force, the midochlorians are just used to help them access the force, the midochlorians are therefore not the force itself. I don't know why many Star Wars fan went psycho when they heard about midochlorians.


I don't think Alpha was saying that Reach was destroyed, he was making a point that none of the other planets encountered in the Halo lore fell in a couple hours, planets that were no where near the significance of Reach even.

  • 01.21.2011 3:27 PM PDT


Posted by: GrnDragn

They changed so much more than the dates. It's not just the time, it was the fact that it disregards previously established Halo Canon, all so that they could make a mediocre campaign.


I don't agree, having read all the books, Cryptum through Evolutions II, in the past 2 weeks. The campaign was great. I can look at Halowiki for the battle of Reach, and the timeline works out just fine for me. I don't bother worrying about semantics such as when the BR was introduced and all that. It doesn't disregard anything, it's just fitting more stuff in.

The back of the box for "Halo Combat Evolved" says "You are the last of your kind". So does that totally over screw ALL the books because, hey, the game box said I'm the last, so non of the books are canon, because I'm supposed to be the last, right?
That's the same type of wall you'll run into if you're sitting there obsessing about Reach falling in one day. August 30th becomes the day Reach fell. And reading the books, again, makes it highly probable that no human colony fell in a matter of 24 hours. But if you want to box yourself in to things said rather early in the franchise's development and stick with them to the bitter end, be my guest. Next Halo book please.

  • 01.21.2011 4:22 PM PDT

By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.

Posted by: HLG ROGUE16
Halsey's journal barely addresses jack squat as Chris Farley might say.. all iot shows is that jun got killed


No it doesn't. Halsey's journal ends as Noble Team are outside her door by the Latchkey Artefact, last time I checked Jun is still alive then. -_-

  • 01.21.2011 4:25 PM PDT


Posted by: C SEC Agent
1. Reach's fall was extended tenfold in the game compared to the book.

2. PoA was never on Reach.

3. Where were the Orbital MAC guns?

4. By extension of #2, Cortana couldn't have been getting a piggyback ride from N6.

5. Jorge

The list goes on, up until around the number 15.


THis is what I think with your five choices:

1) They explain it to be a strike force or survelilence team. Or scout, whatever.

2)Agreed

3) Agreed

4) That wasn't Cortana. That was a part of Cortana, which intentionly had Halo's coordinates, making the jump non-random.

5) Agreed.

  • 01.21.2011 4:28 PM PDT
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CoD is a good game, even if the Halo series are better in some aspects. Anyone who insults either is just bad in that game. Grow up.


Posted by: AlphaZero X

Posted by: GrnDragn

They changed so much more than the dates. It's not just the time, it was the fact that it disregards previously established Halo Canon, all so that they could make a mediocre campaign.


I don't agree, having read all the books, Cryptum through Evolutions II, in the past 2 weeks. The campaign was great. I can look at Halowiki for the battle of Reach, and the timeline works out just fine for me. I don't bother worrying about semantics such as when the BR was introduced and all that. It doesn't disregard anything, it's just fitting more stuff in.

The back of the box for "Halo Combat Evolved" says "You are the last of your kind". So does that totally over screw ALL the books because, hey, the game box said I'm the last, so non of the books are canon, because I'm supposed to be the last, right?
That's the same type of wall you'll run into if you're sitting there obsessing about Reach falling in one day. August 30th becomes the day Reach fell. And reading the books, again, makes it highly probable that no human colony fell in a matter of 24 hours. But if you want to box yourself in to things said rather early in the franchise's development and stick with them to the bitter end, be my guest. Next Halo book please.


Well, no. If we're playing that game then it's simple. Manuals and other guides are on a lower tier than the novels in terms of canon, so it can be overwritten with no problem. The game itself never says directly that MC is the last Spartan either.

I could write paragraphs arguing your point on how the humans can survive longer than 24 hours, but I don't feel like doing that right now. I'm gonna have to repeat myself at a later time anyways so maybe I'll do that then.

  • 01.21.2011 4:32 PM PDT


Posted by: Beowolfe


Actually, after re-reading your post, I don't know what you're getting at, or what point you're trying to make, other than you don't want to make it now. So why post?


[Edited on 01.21.2011 4:57 PM PST]

  • 01.21.2011 4:52 PM PDT


Posted by: AlphaZero X

Posted by: Beowolfe


Actually, after re-reading your post, I don't know what you're getting at, or what point you're trying to make, other than you don't want to make it now. So why post?


Why argue what's been said a thousand times in this thread over and over again? I guess fanboys(not the OP, but he is on their side in the argument) do have one thing on their side: they are persistent as hell.

  • 01.21.2011 4:59 PM PDT
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CoD is a good game, even if the Halo series are better in some aspects. Anyone who insults either is just bad in that game. Grow up.

No, what I said was, and I'm copying and pasting this, "I could write paragraphs arguing your point on how the humans can survive longer than 24 hours, but I don't feel like doing that right now. I'm gonna have to repeat myself at a later time anyways so maybe I'll do that then." Go back and see if you want, I didn't edit it. Oh, and if you want to know if I'm a troll, just go look at my other posts in this thread or any others regarding Reach canon.

But my statement can be read as: I will finally make my post when OrderedComa comes back in and jumps on your wagon.I don't like making posts twice solely because the first is ignored due to other comments.

Happy?

Since you edited your post, I will edit this one as well. I find it funny that you think I didn't make a point. Okay, so what is this then? Again, copying and pasting.

"Manuals and other guides are on a lower tier than the novels in terms of canon, so it can be overwritten with no problem. The game itself never says directly that MC is the last Spartan either."

Unless you don't understand that I'm referring to your point of MC being the last Spartan, I guess I should tell you that that's what it's for. My post= point.

[Edited on 01.21.2011 5:03 PM PST]

  • 01.21.2011 5:00 PM PDT


Posted by: Beowolfe

But my statement can be read as: I will finally make my post when OrderedComa comes back in and jumps on your wagon.I don't like making posts twice solely because the first is ignored due to other comments.

Happy?


"Manuals and other guides are on a lower tier than the novels in terms of canon, so it can be overwritten with no problem. The game itself never says directly that MC is the last Spartan either."


So you made a statement that when you feel like it, you'll make a statement? Thanks for the info, I guess? And I was simply using the manual thing as an example of "don't get so hung up on stuff you saw early being changed", which was kind of the body of my post....



  • 01.21.2011 5:41 PM PDT