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  • Subject: Halo Reach Did not Destroy the Canon
Subject: Halo Reach Did not Destroy the Canon

The Razor.

For the honour of the Mirratord.

Posted by: ajw34307
Posted by: Sir Fragula
Isn't there a new version of the Fall of Reach out? I've not been able to read it yet - I only recently found an EU shop that had Evolutions in stock - but I'd imagine if that's been updated some of the new inconsistencies with the original could have been ironed out.


See, you'd think that, but...


You're in a very pessimistic mood, aren't you, Alex? :P

To be fair, Bungie have always stated that the games override the books in terms of canon. And while I still don't like intentional changes of the canon, I do prefer what happened at Reach in the game compared to the book. I mean, the military heart of the UNSC falling in a day? Come on...

I just wish that they had seized the opportunity to fix all the new inconsistencies in the Fall of Reach re-print.

  • 11.13.2010 4:51 AM PDT
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"Time was your ally human. But now it has abandoned you. The Forerunners....have returned. And this tomb... is now yours". - The Didact


Posted by: Mr Evil 37
Posted by: ajw34307
Posted by: Sir Fragula
Isn't there a new version of the Fall of Reach out? I've not been able to read it yet - I only recently found an EU shop that had Evolutions in stock - but I'd imagine if that's been updated some of the new inconsistencies with the original could have been ironed out.


See, you'd think that, but...


You're in a very pessimistic mood, aren't you, Alex? :P

To be fair, Bungie have always stated that the games override the books in terms of canon. And while I still don't like intentional changes of the canon, I do prefer what happened at Reach in the game compared to the book. I mean, the military heart of the UNSC falling in a day? Come on...

I just wish that they had seized the opportunity to fix all the new inconsistencies in the Fall of Reach re-print.


No no just no,the covenant fleet was far larger and superior,how the hell could the UNSC fleet survive that for a month?Even their ODP were "comprimised"

  • 11.13.2010 5:46 AM PDT

By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.

Revan has a point. The Covenant invaded Reach with 750 ships (says the rewritten TFOR). 60% of the UNSC fleet were en route to Reach at the time, they arrived 2 days after the entire Covenant fleet.

[Edited on 11.13.2010 6:57 AM PST]

  • 11.13.2010 6:51 AM PDT
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"Time was your ally human. But now it has abandoned you. The Forerunners....have returned. And this tomb... is now yours". - The Didact

I remember people bull-blam!-ing that Bungie never breaks canon and that 343 indsutries does it.

*looks at Halo Reach*

Sorry you guys are wrong

I'll happily wait for the FR and post halo 3 trilogys that will calm down my rage that is caused by Bungies middlefinger to the Halo EU

  • 11.13.2010 6:56 AM PDT

Signatures are for squares.

I always laugh when people say "It was dumb to have the military hub fall in one day."

The humans almost always needed to outnumber the Covenant fleet "3 to 1" to be able to win the battle. Yet, on Reach, it was opposite. The Covenant had 750 ships while the UNSC only had about 300 and it's orbital macs. It was a slaughter.

Imagine being THAT outnumbered. It was the largest Covenant fleet anyone had seen until Delta Halo.

They didn't stand a chance.

  • 11.13.2010 8:36 AM PDT

Here's a thought. The books are not cannon.

Crazy thought, yeah?

  • 11.13.2010 8:59 AM PDT
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Posted by: Penguino Rojo
Here's a thought. The books are not cannon.

Crazy thought, yeah?


... 'cept for the bit where they are until the games go out and say otherwise.

  • 11.13.2010 9:14 AM PDT


Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: C SEC Agent
1. Reach's fall was extended tenfold in the game compared to the book.

2. PoA was never on Reach.

3. Where were the Orbital MAC guns?

4. By extension of #2, Cortana couldn't have been getting a piggyback ride from N6.

5. Jorge

The list goes on, up until around the number 15.


I think it's the first sword base level, but Kat does mention the SMACs, I think one of them is what was supposed to have taken out the Corvette attacking Sword.

In response to #4 it was actually only a fragment of Cortana, the real Cortana was still on the Autumn, the Journal explains the "two" Cortanas thing.

#1 I don't see any problem with it being extended, and the way I see it, the Covies in the levels up 'til the Long Night of Solace is destroyed are a reconnaissance force or something, and then the main fleet arrives in system, and between the arival of the Fleet of Particular Justice in the game and Reach's fall on the 30th of August is a rather small period of time, like 1 week I believe it was.
And the book is rather vague on what is going on on Reach the whole time, the book is mostly concerned with Keyes and the Spartans and their back stories.

#2 that's the only thing that might actually be a problem, and I don't really have an answer for it other than to wait and see what Bungie or 343 does to explain it.

#5 Why is Jorge a problem? I don't see anything wrong there.

Kat mention the SMACs in one level, great, where did they go? Why was it up to a group of Sabre's and a single Frigate to go on a suicide mission to destroy the Super-carrier, when there would have been somewhere around 20 SMACs, a fully intact fleet (with at least one cruiser, if I remember right) sitting over Reach. Where are they? What the hell are they doing?

Yes, the journal explains it was a fragment of Cortana, great, that does not at all address the issue of the fact that the PoA could NOT have been ground-side on Reach, as in that case, there would have been no need to launch Red Team from orbit, thus not causing the deaths of several SPARTANs, not causing Red Team to become stranded on Reach, not causing the death of even MORE SPARTANs, and there would have been no way to send Blue Team to the Circumference if they weren't in orbit. At least, there would have been no point, as sending them via Pelican from the surface of Reach would have taken long time. And if Blue Team never went to the Circumference, then Johnson, Jenkins and Bisenti never got on the PoA, and all died at Reach.

So, the Covenant "reconnaissance" force consists of the largest ship in the Covenant fleet, at least one Cruiser, and enough ground forces to openly engage the full military presence on Reach? And then, on top of this, the UNSC decides in the midst of all this, Not to send in the SPARTAN II's? That raises hundreds of more questions as to what the -blam!- the UNSC was thinking.

As for Jorge, given that he is a SPARTAN-II, not a SPARTAN-III, there is the problem of why he was put on Noble Team. We can assume "ONI did it", but again, why?
And if ONI did take Jorge from active service with the S-II's, the only way they could have done that would be to fake his death, similar to Kurt's. Then, we get another problem; Dr. Halsey's reaction to him on Sword Base. She acts as if she simply had not seen him in a long time, not as if he was listed as MIA, and she certainly has no questions about who the other SPARTANs are. Jorge's presence is a miniscule problem when compared to the other glaring flaws in Halo: Reach's campaign.

If one more person comes into a thread like this and says "books r not canon" I might literally start screaming.

[Edited on 11.13.2010 10:12 AM PST]

  • 11.13.2010 9:59 AM PDT


Posted by: privet caboose
Posted by: sharku57
All the events up to August 30 were caused by a pre-invasion fleet that got ahead of the main fleet.


According to Reach, the official invasion started on August...14th wasn't it?

Regardless, the UNSC didn't expect the Covenant at Reach, AT ALL, on August 30th. It was a complete surprise. Yet, in the game the Covenant had been on Reach for more than a month!


They didn't expect them on the 14th either, Bungie simply moved the invasion back about 15 days, and Reach still falls on the 30th, the Covenant fleet just no longer arrives on that day.

  • 11.13.2010 10:29 AM PDT
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Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: privet caboose
Posted by: sharku57
All the events up to August 30 were caused by a pre-invasion fleet that got ahead of the main fleet.


According to Reach, the official invasion started on August...14th wasn't it?

Regardless, the UNSC didn't expect the Covenant at Reach, AT ALL, on August 30th. It was a complete surprise. Yet, in the game the Covenant had been on Reach for more than a month!


They didn't expect them on the 14th either, Bungie simply moved the invasion back about 15 days, and Reach still falls on the 30th, the Covenant fleet just no longer arrives on that day.


This. Most of the book still happens, it's just on differnt dates and in a slightly different order.

  • 11.13.2010 10:38 AM PDT

Signatures are for squares.

Posted by: FleetAdmiralBob

This. Most of the book still happens, it's just on differnt dates and in a slightly different order.


If the Covenant was on Reach, as early as July 24th, then what were the Spartan II's doing just sitting around the whole time? Why were they running TESTS on a suit of armor that they knew worked(Mark V) when the Covenant were attacking the planet? Furthermore, why waste so many supplies(ODSTs, spartan, missiles) on such a useless test when those supplies should've been used to fight the Covenant?

Explain how Red Team got on Reach to defend the MAC's? They didn't take a pelican to the planet, jump out, and suffer four causalities and many injuries. That entire scene was retconned. What happened with the space op where Johnson was saved? That entire scene was retconned.

What were the Spartan II's even doing on the planet since the Orbital macs appear to be gone as early as August 15th(Whatever date Long Night of Solace is.)

It ruins every single event after Sigma Octanus IV.

  • 11.13.2010 10:47 AM PDT


Posted by: ajw34307
Posted by: OrderedComa
Have you ever seen the Halo Story Bible? I don't think so, that document(s) is held by Bungie alone, actually I think it has been passed to 343 now, my point is, that you don't know what it contains, so there is no feasable way you can know for certain that Bungie making the game they want goes against there outlines or not.

The books are cannon, but the games are top of the cannon food chain, what ever the game says is fact. And while the various writers of the Halo books do get a portion of the Halo Bible when they writer their book, they only get the little pieces that pertain to their subject, so what they write could in fact not work with what Bungie has planned for later installments.


I don't have to have read the Halo Story Bible to know that Reach breaks canon, you need only compare it to the novels.

The writers don't get "a portion" of the Halo Bible, they get the whole thing. Nylund and Buckell aren't going to write novels that are canonical when they know bollock all about the bigger picture. Where one idea develops, another forms.

And besides, there are only minor problems the game made that are quite easily fixable, and I heard that most of them are indeed fixed in Halsey's Journal.

You heard wrong. Halsey's Journal only fixes a few, and "fix" is the wrong word to use. Covering up the amount of S-IIs by simply stating she lied is not a fix, it's a sloppy cover up. Maybe you should read the Journal before spreading around that it fixes the inconsistencies.


Why would Bungie give the writers the whole Halo Bible? It's their most closely guarded secret, they're not going to just casually hand out the whole thing. That just doesn't make sense. The writers only get small portions that contain just enough information for them to write their book, and that's all.

And no, I am not just pulling this out of thin air, it was in an article Wired did about Bungie and Halo around when Halo 3 came out.

I don't see anything sloppy about that at all, ONI is very uptight about the information on the Spartan IIs that becomes public knowledge, makes perfect sense to me.
I only know what I've heard about the journal, and all the sources I've heard it from I consider reliable, and they've said it fixes the inconsistancies.

  • 11.13.2010 10:56 AM PDT
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Posted by: privet caboose
Posted by: FleetAdmiralBob

This. Most of the book still happens, it's just on differnt dates and in a slightly different order.


If the Covenant was on Reach, as early as July 24th, then what were the Spartan II's doing just sitting around the whole time? Why were they running TESTS on a suit of armor that they knew worked(Mark V) when the Covenant were attacking the planet? Furthermore, why waste so many supplies(ODSTs, spartan, missiles) on such a useless test when those supplies should've been used to fight the Covenant?

Explain how Red Team got on Reach to defend the MAC's? They didn't take a pelican to the planet, jump out, and suffer four causalities and many injuries. That entire scene was retconned. What happened with the space op where Johnson was saved? That entire scene was retconned.

What were the Spartan II's even doing on the planet since the Orbital macs appear to be gone as early as August 15th(Whatever date Long Night of Solace is.)

It ruins every single event after Sigma Octanus IV.


It only ruins everything after Sigma if you assume that the Autumn and the S-IIs remain in canon statis, doing as they did in FoR until the Covie invasion takes them by surprise on August 30th. Obviously, the timeline must evolve due to these Retcons. The new Fall of Reach should have dealt with this, but something went wrong in the communications or editing process.

The Spartan IIs were most likely in the fight by the time Tip of the Spear happens. I believe that Campaign and Multiplayer maps have radio broadcasts that all but confirm this. Retcon armor testing and other prebattle events to conform to this as is approrpriate

The Pelican scene may or may not have happened, but it certainly didn't happen on August 30th.

The Chief can still save Johnson in time to get picked up by the Autumn on its way out of the system. Halsey gets to Castle Base, Keyes gets to Halo, and all is right with the world. Or at least until First Strike gets updated, causing the fourms to burst aflame once more.

Fall of Reach has been having canonity problems for years, now. For a book that was rushed together in... how many weeks? This was to be expected. Yeah, it had a good run. I only wish Tor'd gone through the trouble of doing proper retcons to the updated version, so that we could have avoided some of this. Still, for all the errors FoR had even before H:R, you'd pretty much need to write a new book.

  • 11.13.2010 11:00 AM PDT

I don't care. I really don't.

Everybody says there are inconsistences, but I disagree.

First: Reach's Invasion Timeleline
Everybody is angry that Reach was invaded on July 24th, but what if it wasn't? What if the super-carrier and it's corvettes were just like Earth; they had no idea where they were and no idea that humanity was there.
So, why didn't they get decimated like the fleet that landed on Earth? Earth had the fleet on their location, whereas the fleet was in Sigma Octanus during that time on Reach.
So why didn't the planet respond? ONI, being the little arrogant, know-it all group they are might've known that it was a small scouting party, and, because of how important Reach is and how many vessels come and go, decided to keep it secret and not enact the Cole Protocol, seeing as someone would (and did) deal with it.
After the point of the Supercarrier, everything on Reach in TFoR was described from someone's view who was going on the Autumn mission or was Dr. Hlasey (she's so secretive, that's obvious knoweledge end). The Spartan's mission was too important to cut off, especially when other Spartans were fighting anyway, so nobody in the Spartan mission would be briefed that the planet was under siege because it wasn't their problem to deal with.

Second: Lack of SMACs
People say there was a lack of SMACs, but the location of Sword Base's artifact(seemingly the one they were after) was far up north, and why would there be SMACs around there? Another, so what if every time an SMAC found it, it vanished?
It was cloaked in the first place, so maybe it was cloaked the whole time, only coming out to allow ships to find it for refueling runs, obviously not enough time for an SMAC to rotate and fire, because then it would be gone again.

Third: The Autumn on Reach.
Everybody gets angry at this, but I don't know how. The PoA level in Reach takes place after the last chapter of TFoR. If you don't remember (or don't know) that the section was told from Cortana's point of view, but I'm gueesing that she encountered a time lapse because, for obvious reasons; she'd have to be powered down to be reunited with her other self. Two smart AIs fused while running at full capacity?
She was definately powered down. So she was powered down, then they returned to the surface to collect her other half, so she didn';t remmeber anything about the surface, as her other half was also obviously powered down, that's why in the PoA level you didn't hear Cortana in your ear.
So seeing as she didn't remember it, there was no need for her character to recount it in TFoR.
Another supporting fact is in the scene in Halo 2 when it shows the Autumn leaving Reach, it was near the planet and the Covenant were glassing it, but in the book they were further out in the system and the Covenant hadn't yet started glassing, so this is the Autumn after the PoA rather than during the final chapter of TFoR.

Those are my theories on the three big mind-tangling "errors".
All the others are pointless, for example "Noble Team shouldn't exist". They were taken out of training, and never went through PROMETHEUS or their respective Companies Operation.

  • 11.13.2010 11:04 AM PDT


Posted by: privet caboose
Posted by: FleetAdmiralBob

This. Most of the book still happens, it's just on differnt dates and in a slightly different order.


If the Covenant was on Reach, as early as July 24th, then what were the Spartan II's doing just sitting around the whole time? Why were they running TESTS on a suit of armor that they knew worked(Mark V) when the Covenant were attacking the planet? Furthermore, why waste so many supplies(ODSTs, spartan, missiles) on such a useless test when those supplies should've been used to fight the Covenant?

Explain how Red Team got on Reach to defend the MAC's? They didn't take a pelican to the planet, jump out, and suffer four causalities and many injuries. That entire scene was retconned. What happened with the space op where Johnson was saved? That entire scene was retconned.

What were the Spartan II's even doing on the planet since the Orbital macs appear to be gone as early as August 15th(Whatever date Long Night of Solace is.)

It ruins every single event after Sigma Octanus IV.


I just read the book, there are large time gaps between several of the chapters, so the Spartans could have easily been fighting, and the game is from Noble Team's perspective, we don't need to know information that would detract from there story (such as if the SIIs were taking part in the fighting).

And as to the testing, the testing of the shielded Mjolner armor (aka Mark V) took place on the 29th, I believe, and there were no missiles used at all, the air ship Ackerson used was equipped with the same armament as the Scorpions, and that would not be very expensive.

And as to Red Team getting down to Reach, and Blue Team carrying out their op, that's easily explained. The Autumn goes down to Reach after the Spartans have parted ways and Chief and the others are picked up from their op. After Chief and co. are picked up, Halsey calls the Autumn back to Reach to pick up the fragment of Cortana, and then the ending of the game plays out. So really the only major change is to the ending of FToR which is of little to no importance in comparison to the rest of the book.

  • 11.13.2010 11:31 AM PDT
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Posted by: privet caboose
Posted by: FleetAdmiralBob

This. Most of the book still happens, it's just on differnt dates and in a slightly different order.

Explain how Red Team got on Reach to defend the MAC's? They didn't take a pelican to the planet, jump out, and suffer four causalities and many injuries. That entire scene was retconned. What happened with the space op where Johnson was saved? That entire scene was retconned.

It ruins every single event after Sigma Octanus IV.


I must have missed that one.

  • 11.13.2010 11:56 AM PDT

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If you're reading this, you need to stop stalking me. If you can't stop stalking me, you might as well go here.

As for the Supercarrier going undetected, I just tell myself that the Corvette got by because it was actually a Stealth Corvette, which deployed the initial Zealot scouts, then constructed the stealth pylons, which allowed the Supercarrier to make an ultra-precise slipspace jump into Reach's atmosphere.

  • 11.13.2010 12:24 PM PDT

I don't get how the PoA was landed anyway, it like, has... no wings.. or thrusters, or anti gravity fields.. i mean it should just.. fall, right?

  • 11.13.2010 12:57 PM PDT


Posted by: Jessicat xD
I don't get how the PoA was landed anyway, it like, has... no wings.. or thrusters, or anti gravity fields.. i mean it should just.. fall, right?


I don't know? How do the other human ships stay floating in atmo, I have no idea, other than it was on the planet and it had vtol thrusters attached to the sides of the ship to help it lift off the ground.

  • 11.13.2010 4:23 PM PDT
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“To say more would spoil be it’s overall its a game that needs to be played.” - Aristotle

Reach's campaign was the best of all of the Halo games.

Reach's campaign's story was the worst of all Halo games.

That the legendary commentary includes some jackass saying that it was completely canon and tied in perfectly made me lose virtually all faith I have left in Bungie's writing division.

  • 11.13.2010 4:33 PM PDT


Posted by: Lord Snakie
Reach's campaign was the best of all of the Halo games.

Reach's campaign's story was the worst of all Halo games.

That the legendary commentary includes some jackass saying that it was completely canon and tied in perfectly made me lose virtually all faith I have left in Bungie's writing division.


I haven't seen the Legendary Commentary, so I wouldn't know what they said, but it does still fit perfectly, there is nothing ruined at all, and anyway, it's Bungie's story, and they're allowed to change it as much as they want.

Only small details were changed, and what was changed doesn't affect the greater story at all. Being an amateur writer I know how the evolution of a story works, small things change all the time.

[Edited on 11.13.2010 5:36 PM PST]

  • 11.13.2010 5:33 PM PDT

Signatures are for squares.

Posted by: OrderedComa
And as to Red Team getting down to Reach, and Blue Team carrying out their op, that's easily explained. The Autumn goes down to Reach after the Spartans have parted ways and Chief and the others are picked up from their op. After Chief and co. are picked up, Halsey calls the Autumn back to Reach to pick up the fragment of Cortana, and then the ending of the game plays out. So really the only major change is to the ending of FToR which is of little to no importance in comparison to the rest of the book.


Why would you shove 25 spartan II's into a single pelican and send it through heavy combat and expect a couple of longswords to protect it, when you were going to just land on the damn planet a few minutes later?

It doesn't even make sense.

  • 11.13.2010 6:01 PM PDT

Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien.
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tenn' Ambar-metta!

What bothers me from Reach is that the fact the Covenant Super carrier after being exposed it wasn't attacked by the SUPER MACs and they had to sacrifice the UNSC-Savanna and Jorge and they have to make a made-up nuke bomb. Why to have to make a "made-up bomb" when they are in REach?! a military planet fortress! did they run out of bombs or what?!

No to mention that in "The fall of Reach" Reach couldn't use the Nova Bombs because the lack of time to prepare to war because they were invaded and defeated in one day. In Halo: Reach they had a month and they never used the Nova bombs.

In "The Fall of Reach" The Spartans II had to leave the Pillar of Autumn because Reach was attacked by surprised! In Halo: Reach, Reach knew already they were under attack for one month, why the Spartans-II had to leave the Pillar of Autumn in such desperation and hard landing and sacrificing 4 Spartans in a free fall to save the generators? They new how big was the Covenant invation, why didn't they just kept the whole Spartans-II to protect Reach?

Ofcourse they broke canon!

[Edited on 11.13.2010 6:53 PM PST]

  • 11.13.2010 6:47 PM PDT

Don't worry, you're still your mom's favorite Bnet member.

As much as I love the Halo: Reach story, I'm afraid it did destroy canon.

Very simple changes by Bungie could've easily solved many problems.

  • 11.13.2010 6:53 PM PDT

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Posted by: MegaMuffin16
As much as I love the Halo: Reach story, I'm afraid it did destroy canon.

Very simple changes by Bungie could've easily solved many problems.


I agree, the campaign was amazing but it totally breaks canon in all levels, HUGE disappointment from Bungie.

  • 11.13.2010 7:00 PM PDT