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  • Subject: Halo Reach Did not Destroy the Canon
Subject: Halo Reach Did not Destroy the Canon
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But the nav mission wouldn't of happened, because the UNSC wouldn't of let the circumference sit out with nav data for a month!

You're forgetting that that the Covenant invasion was a secret. Despite the presence of massive warships and armies of aliens, nobody was aware that Reach as under attack for an entire month. If they enacted the cole protocol and wiped the databses, people might put that together with the giant warships and armies of aliens and discover that they were under attack, something that ONI didn't want to happen because [redacted]

  • 11.14.2010 1:06 PM PDT

I see all and Know all.

no one expected the covenant to find reach.
the carrier could have been cloaked to slip past orbital defenses

  • 11.14.2010 1:08 PM PDT


Posted by: Admonitor

Posted by: opogjijijp
But it was a secret. ONI managed to cover up the presence of giant warships and massive invading armies for entire month, and not a single person noticed.

Really.


Now I'm not doubting ONIs abilities here seeing as they are the organization that explains away almost every inconsistency with the ever so apt "ONI did it." But even I doubt there abilities to cover up the "small reconnaissance force," that showed up on Reach.

I'm sorry I don't care how good you are a covering -blam!- up, but this is an insurmountable obstacle. Think of it as ONIs Everest but instead it is impossible. No matter how hard you try someone is going to notice. Whether it be from the Super Carrier XL falling from the heavens or New Alexandria turning into a boiling lake of molten glass, or all the civilian evacuation transports from an entire continent suddenly getting up and leaving or any of the other stuff that happened for the almost 30 day time period before the "Official" Covenant fleet showed up.

Hell the only way this makes sense is if the UNSC is the most inept military organization in the history of the universe. Even then there is no way the UNSC is surprised when the "Official" fleet shows. There is also no way the Circumference is left in that station for a month with that data needing to be wiped.

As far as I'm concerned Halo is like a jigsaw puzzle. You know what sure some pieces don't really fit, and there are several missing, but it still forms a pretty consistent picture. Then here comes Reach, it is a completely different puzzle (speaking canonically and gameplay wise) but Bungie tries to jam it in anyways, and they succeed. Except in the process they break a whole bunch of stuff to make room for this new puzzle. And as a result a whole bunch of the previous picture is destroyed or warped to the point where it makes no sense. And here we suddenly have a picture show up right in the middle, that makes no sense in the context of the previous picture.

And the picture they decided to put in isn't any good anyways, so what was the point of all this, to see how patient your EU fans are, or to push their loyalty to the brink of giving up on Halo and in some cases abandoning ship. Or was it just to see how much retconning you can get away with without having to explain yourself.

Anyone else starting to get a Star Wars vibe from this. I personally cannot wait until they adopt a B canon model/sarcasm


The evacuation of New Alexandria started after the Fleet arrived. And once the main Covie fleet arrived, why would they continue to cover it up? Before the Long Night of Solace was destroyed it was only said ship and whatever smaller ones it had been carrying, something the UNSC forces could easily mop up, which they were doing quite a good job of, why would they need to publicize that a few Covenant ships had come to Reach?
Publicizing it would only lead to a mass panic.

We honestly have no idea how long the Circumference was at Reach. It is implausible to have it sitting there for months without Cole Protocol being enacted on it, but we simply do not know how long it had been there. And besides, all the data on it, as in data reffering to the ship, was erased, so it technically did not exist.

I'm starting to wonder if maybe all the people saying "Reach destroyed the canon" are only saying so because they want it to be broken, or if they just don't feel like trying to come up with possible theories to patch the "holes", of which there are many good ones.

  • 11.14.2010 1:45 PM PDT


Posted by: privet caboose

But the nav mission wouldn't of happened, because the UNSC wouldn't of let the circumference sit out with nav data for a month!


The Circumference technically didn't exist, and we don't know how long it had been there, it could have been 2 days, 2 weeks, or God knows how long. Also though, the Covenant forces were mostly concentrated in the middle of nowhere, and the Cole Protocol, from everything I've read and heard so far, only deals with Covenant in the immediate area and ships/stations that are in danger of being capture.

  • 11.14.2010 1:58 PM PDT


Posted by: OrderedComa
The evacuation of New Alexandria started after the Fleet arrived. And once the main Covie fleet arrived, why would they continue to cover it up? Before the Long Night of Solace was destroyed it was only said ship and whatever smaller ones it had been carrying, something the UNSC forces could easily mop up, which they were doing quite a good job of, why would they need to publicize that a few Covenant ships had come to Reach?
Publicizing it would only lead to a mass panic.


New Alexandria takes place on August 23, 2552, TFoR however, states that the official Covenant fleet was detected by a remote outpost on August 30, 2552. That's a whole seven days before the fleet is supposed to arrive. Unless of-course you are referring to "The Whole damn Covenant Fleet." In which case you would be correct, but that still doesn't explain why one recon force consisting of a super carrier and several corvettes was followed by not one fleet of ships but two.

We honestly have no idea how long the Circumference was at Reach. It is implausible to have it sitting there for months without Cole Protocol being enacted on it, but we simply do not know how long it had been there. And besides, all the data on it, as in data reffering to the ship, was erased, so it technically did not exist.

Exactly so it is safe to say that Blue team's mission was scrubbed as either the ship was no longer there or someone else manually initiated Cole Protocol. Either way how does Johnson and his crew get aboard the PoA, since the circumference mission was scrubbed, what reason do they have to go to the station.

I'm starting to wonder if maybe all the people saying "Reach destroyed the canon" are only saying so because they want it to be broken, or if they just don't feel like trying to come up with possible theories to patch the "holes", of which there are many good ones.

Or because it actually is broken. There are things going on that shouldn't be, events happening before they should be happening, ships on planets they we're never on, people not undergoing missions that they should be on, and so on and so forth.

It is not our job to patch up Halos canon, hell Halos canon shouldn't even need to be patched up. Before Reach Bungie and 343 had done a fairly good job at maintaining consistency. And then here comes Reach and ruins all that. And now we are asking why was this necessary and which parts of TFoR are still valid and all we get from Bungie is silence and arrogance (legendary commentary.)

As for those explanations they are just theories, we still have no idea what is valid anymore, and there is no official to tell what is and is not canon so we're just left to bicker amongst ourselves. And I have yet to see a good explanation for why one book was basically turned into fan-fiction, if you see one let me know and I will judge it for myself.

  • 11.14.2010 2:47 PM PDT
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Posted by: Admonitor
Before Reach Bungie and 343 had done a fairly good job at maintaining consistency.


Ahawhahaahahahahah. Heheheheh. Lord, that quip alone almost made me go into Shonen Villain mode.

The Forerunner's exact relationship to humanity and the effects of rampancy are two major plot points that vary pretty drastically based on who happens to be writing at the time.

Hell, FoR had plenty of parts that didn't mesh with CE, let alone the rest of the Expanded Universe. That busted MAC gun that magically started working in the opening cutscenes, furinstance. Reach actually fixes that much! Nearly every entry into the universe has ignored the fact that Spartands didn't get shielding until pretty late in the game.

FoR was written in a rush. These things are bound to happen, and smaller retcons have been wearing on it for the past ten years. I'd gladly take the valuable bits from the last half of the book and sprinkle them around the Reach timeline in a way that makes sense.

  • 11.14.2010 2:55 PM PDT


Posted by: Admonitor

Posted by: OrderedComa
The evacuation of New Alexandria started after the Fleet arrived. And once the main Covie fleet arrived, why would they continue to cover it up? Before the Long Night of Solace was destroyed it was only said ship and whatever smaller ones it had been carrying, something the UNSC forces could easily mop up, which they were doing quite a good job of, why would they need to publicize that a few Covenant ships had come to Reach?
Publicizing it would only lead to a mass panic.


New Alexandria takes place on August 23, 2552, TFoR however, states that the official Covenant fleet was detected by a remote outpost on August 30, 2552. That's a whole seven days before the fleet is supposed to arrive. Unless of-course you are referring to "The Whole damn Covenant Fleet." In which case you would be correct, but that still doesn't explain why one recon force consisting of a super carrier and several corvettes was followed by not one fleet of ships but two.

We honestly have no idea how long the Circumference was at Reach. It is implausible to have it sitting there for months without Cole Protocol being enacted on it, but we simply do not know how long it had been there. And besides, all the data on it, as in data reffering to the ship, was erased, so it technically did not exist.

Exactly so it is safe to say that Blue team's mission was scrubbed as either the ship was no longer there or someone else manually initiated Cole Protocol. Either way how does Johnson and his crew get aboard the PoA, since the circumference mission was scrubbed, what reason do they have to go to the station.

I'm starting to wonder if maybe all the people saying "Reach destroyed the canon" are only saying so because they want it to be broken, or if they just don't feel like trying to come up with possible theories to patch the "holes", of which there are many good ones.

Or because it actually is broken. There are things going on that shouldn't be, events happening before they should be happening, ships on planets they we're never on, people not undergoing missions that they should be on, and so on and so forth.

It is not our job to patch up Halos canon, hell Halos canon shouldn't even need to be patched up. Before Reach Bungie and 343 had done a fairly good job at maintaining consistency. And then here comes Reach and ruins all that. And now we are asking why was this necessary and which parts of TFoR are still valid and all we get from Bungie is silence and arrogance (legendary commentary.)

As for those explanations they are just theories, we still have no idea what is valid anymore, and there is no official to tell what is and is not canon so we're just left to bicker amongst ourselves. And I have yet to see a good explanation for why one book was basically turned into fan-fiction, if you see one let me know and I will judge it for myself.


I don't know whether you've read all my posts or not, but in one of my earlier ones I said that Fermion detecting the Covenant fleet was pushed back as was the arrival of said fleet to right after the Long Night of Solace is destroyed. I don't think there were two fleets, I think there was only the one in TFoR, only the date of it's arrival was pushed back, while the date of Reach's fall is left in tact.

I also said that I thought the Autumn was taking part in the space battle, and everything played out like the ending of the book, except that rather than immediately jumping out of system after picking Chief and the marines they were called down planet side to pick up the Cortana fragment, and then buggered out of there once the package was received, and then CE starts.

Well I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree here, 'cause I don't see anything significant that was ruined by Reach. At least it's the bickering is civil for the most part and there is usually intelligent discussion between the disagreeing parties, it could be a lot worse.
Can I ask where you disagree with the theories I've proposed and what you think is weak or not good about them?

  • 11.14.2010 3:14 PM PDT


Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: EchoGamer

Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: C SEC Agent
1. Reach's fall was extended tenfold in the game compared to the book.

2. PoA was never on Reach.

3. Where were the Orbital MAC guns?

4. By extension of #2, Cortana couldn't have been getting a piggyback ride from N6.

5. Jorge

The list goes on, up until around the number 15.


I think it's the first sword base level, but Kat does mention the SMACs, I think one of them is what was supposed to have taken out the Corvette attacking Sword.

In response to #4 it was actually only a fragment of Cortana, the real Cortana was still on the Autumn, the Journal explains the "two" Cortanas thing.

#1 I don't see any problem with it being extended, and the way I see it, the Covies in the levels up 'til the Long Night of Solace is destroyed are a reconnaissance force or something, and then the main fleet arrives in system, and between the arival of the Fleet of Particular Justice in the game and Reach's fall on the 30th of August is a rather small period of time, like 1 week I believe it was.
And the book is rather vague on what is going on on Reach the whole time, the book is mostly concerned with Keyes and the Spartans and their back stories.

#2 that's the only thing that might actually be a problem, and I don't really have an answer for it other than to wait and see what Bungie or 343 does to explain it.

#5 Why is Jorge a problem? I don't see anything wrong there.

Kat mention the SMACs in one level, great, where did they go? Why was it up to a group of Sabre's and a single Frigate to go on a suicide mission to destroy the Super-carrier, when there would have been somewhere around 20 SMACs, a fully intact fleet (with at least one cruiser, if I remember right) sitting over Reach. Where are they? What the hell are they doing?

Yes, the journal explains it was a fragment of Cortana, great, that does not at all address the issue of the fact that the PoA could NOT have been ground-side on Reach, as in that case, there would have been no need to launch Red Team from orbit, thus not causing the deaths of several SPARTANs, not causing Red Team to become stranded on Reach, not causing the death of even MORE SPARTANs, and there would have been no way to send Blue Team to the Circumference if they weren't in orbit. At least, there would have been no point, as sending them via Pelican from the surface of Reach would have taken long time. And if Blue Team never went to the Circumference, then Johnson, Jenkins and Bisenti never got on the PoA, and all died at Reach.

So, the Covenant "reconnaissance" force consists of the largest ship in the Covenant fleet, at least one Cruiser, and enough ground forces to openly engage the full military presence on Reach? And then, on top of this, the UNSC decides in the midst of all this, Not to send in the SPARTAN II's? That raises hundreds of more questions as to what the -blam!- the UNSC was thinking.

As for Jorge, given that he is a SPARTAN-II, not a SPARTAN-III, there is the problem of why he was put on Noble Team. We can assume "ONI did it", but again, why?
And if ONI did take Jorge from active service with the S-II's, the only way they could have done that would be to fake his death, similar to Kurt's. Then, we get another problem; Dr. Halsey's reaction to him on Sword Base. She acts as if she simply had not seen him in a long time, not as if he was listed as MIA, and she certainly has no questions about who the other SPARTANs are. Jorge's presence is a miniscule problem when compared to the other glaring flaws in Halo: Reach's campaign.

If one more person comes into a thread like this and says "books r not canon" I might literally start screaming.


The Autumn was called back to Reach by Halsey after the ship had recovered Chief from the Circumference. In other words, the Autumn went down to the surface of Reach 15+ minutes after deploying the Spartans.

Maybe reconnaissance is not the right word, but they were definitely sent ahead of the main fleet to gain a foothold, some recon work most likely would be involved in this, but that was not their sole purpose, and then they made a blunder when they took out Visegard and the UNSC was consequently made aware of their presence on Reach.
And as I've said multiple times before, there are large time gaps in the book where we don't know what has been going on, so the SIIs could have easily been taking part in the defense before they were tasked with going after the Prophets.

ONI are the ones responsible for giving all Spartans their missions, they wouldn't need to have Jorge declared MIA, they would just have him put on Noble Team, and someone will probably say something about "why didn't Halsey know about it then" ONI likes keeping her in the dark, she only has limited access to ONI information, and even then it's only as much as they choose to give her.
The only reason they practically kidnapped Kurt and had him declared MIA is because the SIIIs are a closely guarded secret, and the amount of involvement he would have with them, they pretty much had to have his death faked.

Okay, the Autumn was called back to Reach "15+ minutes after deploying Red Team" well, then why didn't Keyes pick up Red Team? And why wasn't Keyes fighting the Covenant? When Red and Blue Teams were deployed, the UNSC was still putting up a fight, and most of the SMACs were still online. Unless we are completely throwing away TFoR, in which case all my arguments are invalid.

There are gaps in the book, we don't follow the S-IIs around everywhere they go. But, here's the problem; why would the S-II's be surprised that the Covenant Fleet was attacking Reach, if they had been attacking them for the past month? And why would ONI send the S-II's on a mission while the Covenant were knocking on their door?

ONI is responsible for sending the SPARTANs on their missions, but they would need to give an explanation for Jorge disappearing one day. Do you honestly think that John would not have asked questions if Jorge was removed from his unit?
Granted, Jorge might have been one of the SPARTANs previously disfigured by the augmentations, who had managed to make a recovery. Fine, whatever, but my point is not that Jorge can't be on Noble Team, it's that he's there with no explanation given, and Dr. Halsey just goes with it.



[Edited on 11.14.2010 3:17 PM PST]

  • 11.14.2010 3:16 PM PDT


Posted by: EchoGamer

Okay, the Autumn was called back to Reach "15+ minutes after deploying Red Team" well, then why didn't Keyes pick up Red Team? And why wasn't Keyes fighting the Covenant? When Red and Blue Teams were deployed, the UNSC was still putting up a fight, and most of the SMACs were still online. Unless we are completely throwing away TFoR, in which case all my arguments are invalid.

There are gaps in the book, we don't follow the S-IIs around everywhere they go. But, here's the problem; why would the S-II's be surprised that the Covenant Fleet was attacking Reach, if they had been attacking them for the past month? And why would ONI send the S-II's on a mission while the Covenant were knocking on their door?

ONI is responsible for sending the SPARTANs on their missions, but they would need to give an explanation for Jorge disappearing one day. Do you honestly think that John would not have asked questions if Jorge was removed from his unit?
Granted, Jorge might have been one of the SPARTANs previously disfigured by the augmentations, who had managed to make a recovery. Fine, whatever, but my point is not that Jorge can't be on Noble Team, it's that he's there with no explanation given, and Dr. Halsey just goes with it.



What do you mean by "Why wasn't Keyes fighting the Covenant"?
I was under the impression that the fighting would be too thick to extract them, and I think they would probably refuse anyway, knowing Spartans and their sense of duty. And I'm not sure why you are bringing up the state of the SMACs whether the UNSC was still putting up a fight or not.

Well obviously with the adding/minor changes their reactions would of course change. And desperate times call for desperate measures, ONI obviously thought that such a mission could end the war.

I don't see why they'd need to give a reason for assigning him to Noble, no one except ONI needs to know where each Spartan is or what they're doing. Halsey's Journal goes a little more in depth into that cut-scene than the game actually shows, and I thought it pretty evident that she was suspicious of Noble when she first saw them, they certainly didn't receive a warm welcome. It probably is more likely that Jorge was a washout that they were able to heal though.

  • 11.14.2010 6:11 PM PDT

Posted by: privet caboose
Reach did break canon.

Infact, it breaks canon within the first 5 minutes of the game. Reach fell on August 30th. That's the day the Covenant found Reach, and decimated the UNSC Fleet. All in one day.

The game says that the UNSC lost in over a months time. And without the UNSC even putting up a real fight. It was as if Reach was some random farmer colony.


It fell on the 30th, but the Covenant didn't arrive on the 30th. They arrived a week or so earlier, and began to strategically infiltrate the planet. This is where Noble comes in. The planet fell on the 30th, but the battle had already started prior. The main part of the fleet didn't arrive until the events of the book.

And the PoA returned to the planet for repairs (ship breaking yards) before they escaped to Installation 04.

  • 11.14.2010 7:40 PM PDT

Signatures are for squares.

Posted by: Wesley S Shark
Posted by: privet caboose
Reach did break canon.

Infact, it breaks canon within the first 5 minutes of the game. Reach fell on August 30th. That's the day the Covenant found Reach, and decimated the UNSC Fleet. All in one day.

The game says that the UNSC lost in over a months time. And without the UNSC even putting up a real fight. It was as if Reach was some random farmer colony.


It fell on the 30th, but the Covenant didn't arrive on the 30th. They arrived a week or so earlier, and began to strategically infiltrate the planet. This is where Noble comes in. The planet fell on the 30th, but the battle had already started prior. The main part of the fleet didn't arrive until the events of the book.

And the PoA returned to the planet for repairs (ship breaking yards) before they escaped to Installation 04.


1. In the book, the entire battle was ONLY on the 30th. The Covenant had no "scout" ships. They showed up with 750 ships and decimated the UNSC.

2. The POA didn't land for repairs. It was in an orbital dock for it's repairs.

  • 11.14.2010 7:47 PM PDT
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Posted by: privet caboose
Posted by: Wesley S Shark
Posted by: privet caboose
Reach did break canon.

Infact, it breaks canon within the first 5 minutes of the game. Reach fell on August 30th. That's the day the Covenant found Reach, and decimated the UNSC Fleet. All in one day.

The game says that the UNSC lost in over a months time. And without the UNSC even putting up a real fight. It was as if Reach was some random farmer colony.


It fell on the 30th, but the Covenant didn't arrive on the 30th. They arrived a week or so earlier, and began to strategically infiltrate the planet. This is where Noble comes in. The planet fell on the 30th, but the battle had already started prior. The main part of the fleet didn't arrive until the events of the book.

And the PoA returned to the planet for repairs (ship breaking yards) before they escaped to Installation 04.


1. In the book, the entire battle was ONLY on the 30th. The Covenant had no "scout" ships. They showed up with 750 ships and decimated the UNSC.

2. The POA didn't land for repairs. It was in an orbital dock for it's repairs.


... not anymore, they didn't.

  • 11.14.2010 7:50 PM PDT

KILL OR BE KILLED!

cant anyone just play the game anymore ?

  • 11.14.2010 7:58 PM PDT
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Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: privet caboose
Posted by: OrderedComa
And as to Red Team getting down to Reach, and Blue Team carrying out their op, that's easily explained. The Autumn goes down to Reach after the Spartans have parted ways and Chief and the others are picked up from their op. After Chief and co. are picked up, Halsey calls the Autumn back to Reach to pick up the fragment of Cortana, and then the ending of the game plays out. So really the only major change is to the ending of FToR which is of little to no importance in comparison to the rest of the book.


Why would you shove 25 spartan II's into a single pelican and send it through heavy combat and expect a couple of longswords to protect it, when you were going to just land on the damn planet a few minutes later?

It doesn't even make sense.


I never said Keyes was planning to go down to Reach, and it was no where near "a few minutes later". I said that I think Halsey called the Autumn down to Reach after Chief and the others wiping the Circumference had been picked up. My theory is that as they were preparing to jump, they get a transmission from Halsey to come back and pick up the package.

What you're proposing, of course does not make sense, but I was not suggesting that at all.


August 30th

0616 Hours: The SPARTAN-IIs are dispatched from the Pillar of Autumn. John-117, Linda-058, and James form Blue Team and go aboard the Dock to destroy the Circumference, while the remainder form Red Team and head to the surface of Reach to defend the power generators for the MAC guns. James goes MIA when a Needler hits his thruster pack and propels him into space during combat. Blue Team continue through the station, rescuing Staff Sergeant Johnson; Private O'Brien, Private Bisenti, and Pvt. Wallace A. Jenkins from Kig-yar and Sangheili.

1652 hours: The remainder of Noble Team head to the Aszod ship breaking yards to deliver a fragment of Cortana, which holds important navigation data, to the Pillar of Autumn. SPARTAN-B312 successfully delivers the package to the Autumn and allows the vessel to escape by destroying an incoming Covenant battlecruiser. The Pillar of Autumn, pursued by a dozen Covenant vessels, retreats from the system, heading for Installation 04.

..More like ten and half hours later.

  • 11.14.2010 11:12 PM PDT

I've read The Fall of Reach twice, and I've played the Reach game three times through, and it all makes perfect sense to me.

Haters gonna hate? As always.

  • 11.14.2010 11:50 PM PDT


Posted by: halokiller34
cant anyone just play the game anymore ?


Welcome to the Universe section, where all things canon are to be discussed. When stuff doesn't line up and no official explanations are given this sort of thing is bound to happen.

Posted by: OrderedComa
I don't know whether you've read all my posts or not, but in one of my earlier ones I said that Fermion detecting the Covenant fleet was pushed back as was the arrival of said fleet to right after the Long Night of Solace is destroyed. I don't think there were two fleets, I think there was only the one in TFoR, only the date of it's arrival was pushed back, while the date of Reach's fall is left in tact.


But the thing is that is just speculation neither of us can say what happened at the monitoring outpost or even when it happened if at all (atleast not anymore.) As for the timeline, it is still thrown out of wack. So just push all the dates forward by a month... well that doesn't really work. Because everything after the PoA jumps to Halo is left intact, but everything before that has to be pushed forward, and that still doesn't fix everything. Reach still lasts about 720 times longer that the book states it does, it goes from about three hours to a month.

And what about Sigma Octanus, that battle was wrapped up on July 18, do you honestly expect me to believe that in six days the Iroquois reached Reach with the spy probe and the Covenant managed to assemble an elite strike force consisting of the largest Covenant ship we have ever seen. All this despite the fact that we know Human slipspace takes much more time that their Covenant/Forerunner counterpart. I just don't see all that happening in six days.

I also said that I thought the Autumn was taking part in the space battle, and everything played out like the ending of the book, except that rather than immediately jumping out of system after picking Chief and the marines they were called down planet side to pick up the Cortana fragment, and then buggered out of there once the package was received, and then CE starts.

But why is there even the need to pick up the Chief, there is no point to that mission anymore the Cole protocol had been would have been enacted for over a month. There is no reason to launch a dropship to grab some marines, all that does is prolong your time in a system that at this point is controlled by the enemy. Furthermore your telling me that it makes sense that the PoA hung around in said system for thirteen hours after they had jumped to slipspace. What were they doing that entire time, just twiddling their thumbs.

Hell by the time they extracted the Chief and company from their little excursion in space they were already pushing it. The book plainly states the bleakness of the situation they were in "They weren't running out of time, they had ran out of time." And yet they decided to hang around for thirteen more hours, why?

Well I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree here, 'cause I don't see anything significant that was ruined by Reach. At least it's the bickering is civil for the most part and there is usually intelligent discussion between the disagreeing parties, it could be a lot worse.
Can I ask where you disagree with the theories I've proposed and what you think is weak or not good about them?


Indeed it looks like we have reached an impasse. Yes this could be going a lot worse. As for what I don't like about your theories, simple fact is I don't like retcons. Don't get me wrong, I understand that as a IP expands inconsistencies are going to start becoming the rule rather than the exception, but I still don't like it. That's not to say I don't accept them, small things I can accept, hell even big things I can accept, if given a proper explanation. I also will begrudgingly accept retcons if the new canon is superior to the old. IMO it was not Reach's, campaign failed to impress me on way too many levels. Now I can't say for sure but I'm positive that I would be more accpeting of the changes if Bungie had put a proper story instead of the third rate, b-list, generic action movie plot that the Bungie writers dreamed up.

Thing is I like consistency and Bob called me on that, perhaps I was being delusional or hyperboling too much to describe the consistency of the previous canon. But I never had to disregard a good portion of an entire book for the game to fit in properly. It's nothing personal Coma, I'm sure you can come up with numerous explanations for Reach, and I'm sure most of them would be fine. But I'm looking for something from Bungie/343, something beyond "It fits perfectly, high five for paying attention to the expanded universe." /paraphrase Although that is probably just wishful thinking on my part.

  • 11.15.2010 4:44 AM PDT
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"Time was your ally human. But now it has abandoned you. The Forerunners....have returned. And this tomb... is now yours". - The Didact

Lol at the people trying to defend Bungie ,can't they really see the HUGE destruction of canon.

Look here

The Pillar Of Autumn was already waiting for Noble Team on hte 29th of August.

"...Perhaps more. You are to take her to the UNSC ship-breaking yards in Aszod. There, you will find a Halycon-class cruiser waiting to get her off planet."

Auntie Dot: "The ship-breaking yard in Azsod. The only off-planet extraction point left on this continent. Small scale air attacks have decimated many convoys en route. An armada of Covenant cruisers have hastened to side as well. UNSC cruiser, Pillar of Autumn is awaiting for your arrival."

Oops looks liek the Autumn was already on Reach on the 29th.How did they dropped Red and Blue team?

Halsey was stuck in SWORD base during operation uppercut till the day Noble saves her and yet she somehow talks to her sII's during her briefing on Operation Red Flag?

Face it Bungie destroyed the canon and they know it but don't care for it.

  • 11.15.2010 8:02 AM PDT

On Waypoint I'm rocketFox;
http://halo.xbox.com/forums/members/rocketfox/default.aspx

Old GTs; RebelRobot, Flamedude

I'm still not convinced of the caliber of the storyline of Halo Reach. Bearing in mind that so much happened during the Fall of Reach the game barely delved into any of these events, but instead created a whole new set of strange or questionable events.

The whole Supercarrier hiding in the atmosphere of the UNSCs military hub just doesnt sit well with me. And the whole general lack of military reaction during the game.

  • 11.15.2010 12:45 PM PDT

Posted by: Admonitor
But the thing is that is just speculation neither of us can say what happened at the monitoring outpost or even when it happened if at all (atleast not anymore.) As for the timeline, it is still thrown out of wack. So just push all the dates forward by a month... well that doesn't really work. Because everything after the PoA jumps to Halo is left intact, but everything before that has to be pushed forward, and that still doesn't fix everything. Reach still lasts about 720 times longer that the book states it does, it goes from about three hours to a month.

And what about Sigma Octanus, that battle was wrapped up on July 18, do you honestly expect me to believe that in six days the Iroquois reached Reach with the spy probe and the Covenant managed to assemble an elite strike force consisting of the largest Covenant ship we have ever seen. All this despite the fact that we know Human slipspace takes much more time that their Covenant/Forerunner counterpart. I just don't see all that happening in six days.


This is just me, but I'd take well thought out speculation from the fan community over raging about how the cannon was destroyed any day. The timeline is a little muddled, but I don't care too much about the exact time something happens more than I do the sequence of events, which can still for the most part coincide with the game.

I don't know the distance between Sigma Octanus and the random jump point after the battle, and said jump point to Reach, so it could have taken 6 days. And it's entirely possible the Covenant discovered Reach earlier or in two separate ways right around the same time. Like the Super Carrier finds it somehow a couple days before the Iroquois returns to Reach with the tracking device attached to it.


But why is there even the need to pick up the Chief, there is no point to that mission anymore the Cole protocol had been would have been enacted for over a month. There is no reason to launch a dropship to grab some marines, all that does is prolong your time in a system that at this point is controlled by the enemy. Furthermore your telling me that it makes sense that the PoA hung around in said system for thirteen hours after they had jumped to slipspace. What were they doing that entire time, just twiddling their thumbs.

Hell by the time they extracted the Chief and company from their little excursion in space they were already pushing it. The book plainly states the bleakness of the situation they were in "They weren't running out of time, they had ran out of time." And yet they decided to hang around for thirteen more hours, why?


Like I said before, we don't know when the Circumference got there, so we don't know how long it was sitting in the station, and it's possible ONI had something they didn't want to delete in the files on the ship, so they basically erased the ship the from existence and left the mess for someone else to clean up(aka Blue Team).

I believe Dot says the Autumn is making repairs, so they're not twiddling their thumbs the entire time they're waiting for Noble Team, and they're probably also helping to hold the Ship Breaking Yard, because Dot also says it's one of the last, secure places to leave the planet from.

I guess they changed the urgency of their needing to leave, and I'd consider the urgency in the book creative license, because Nylund obviously didn't know about Noble Team and the way they fit into the last hours of Reach.


Indeed it looks like we have reached an impasse. Yes this could be going a lot worse. As for what I don't like about your theories, simple fact is I don't like retcons. Don't get me wrong, I understand that as a IP expands inconsistencies are going to start becoming the rule rather than the exception, but I still don't like it. That's not to say I don't accept them, small things I can accept, hell even big things I can accept, if given a proper explanation. I also will begrudgingly accept retcons if the new canon is superior to the old. IMO it was not Reach's, campaign failed to impress me on way too many levels. Now I can't say for sure but I'm positive that I would be more accpeting of the changes if Bungie had put a proper story instead of the third rate, b-list, generic action movie plot that the Bungie writers dreamed up.

Thing is I like consistency and Bob called me on that, perhaps I was being delusional or hyperboling too much to describe the consistency of the previous canon. But I never had to disregard a good portion of an entire book for the game to fit in properly. It's nothing personal Coma, I'm sure you can come up with numerous explanations for Reach, and I'm sure most of them would be fine. But I'm looking for something from Bungie/343, something beyond "It fits perfectly, high five for paying attention to the expanded universe." /paraphrase Although that is probably just wishful thinking on my part.


I totally know what you mean, if I had read 9-10 years ago when it came out, I'm sure I'd probably be making more of a fuss about the changes too. I feel much the same way about the Prequel Trilogy for Star Wars as you do about Halo: Reach, so I totally get where you're coming from, but yeah, thank God for civil debate, haha.

  • 11.15.2010 2:02 PM PDT

Signatures are for squares.

Posted by: hotshot revan II
Lol at the people trying to defend Bungie ,can't they really see the HUGE destruction of canon.

Look here

The Pillar Of Autumn was already waiting for Noble Team on hte 29th of August.

"...Perhaps more. You are to take her to the UNSC ship-breaking yards in Aszod. There, you will find a Halycon-class cruiser waiting to get her off planet."

Auntie Dot: "The ship-breaking yard in Azsod. The only off-planet extraction point left on this continent. Small scale air attacks have decimated many convoys en route. An armada of Covenant cruisers have hastened to side as well. UNSC cruiser, Pillar of Autumn is awaiting for your arrival."

Oops looks liek the Autumn was already on Reach on the 29th.How did they dropped Red and Blue team?

Halsey was stuck in SWORD base during operation uppercut till the day Noble saves her and yet she somehow talks to her sII's during her briefing on Operation Red Flag?

Face it Bungie destroyed the canon and they know it but don't care for it.


Really good catch.

Now the whole, "They dropped off the Spartan II's then landed," thing is now false.

  • 11.15.2010 2:06 PM PDT


Posted by: privet caboose
Reach did break canon.

Infact, it breaks canon within the first 5 minutes of the game. Reach fell on August 30th. That's the day the Covenant found Reach, and decimated the UNSC Fleet. All in one day.

The game says that the UNSC lost in over a months time. And without the UNSC even putting up a real fight. It was as if Reach was some random farmer colony.
thats stupid reach falling in month is alot better than 2 hours it goes to show how in death times we cover everything up, Humanity covers everything up if they think they can deal with it without evacuating or helping others, in other words if you were their an oni opprative would you evacuate everyone or if you had a chance to kill a small fleet and you had the resources would you send them to kill the covenant?

[Edited on 11.15.2010 2:31 PM PST]

  • 11.15.2010 2:30 PM PDT

Signatures are for squares.

Posted by: Alf stewert

Posted by: privet caboose
Reach did break canon.

Infact, it breaks canon within the first 5 minutes of the game. Reach fell on August 30th. That's the day the Covenant found Reach, and decimated the UNSC Fleet. All in one day.

The game says that the UNSC lost in over a months time. And without the UNSC even putting up a real fight. It was as if Reach was some random farmer colony.
thats stupid reach falling in month is alot better than 2 hours it goes to show how in death times we cover everything up, Humanity covers everything up if they think they can deal with it without evacuating or helping others, in other words if you were their an oni opprative would you evacuate everyone or if you had a chance to kill a small fleet and you had the resources would you send them to kill the covenant?


/Facedesk.

OF COURSE IT WAS ONE DAY. IT WAS 750+ COVENANT SHIPS VERSUS 300 UNSC SHIPS.

It has nothing to do with "Covering it up." Reach was the military's strongest stronghold. If the Covenant was on it, ONI wouldn't stick around, they'd fall back. When a planet is found by the Covenant, the UNSC almost never won it back.

  • 11.15.2010 2:50 PM PDT


Posted by: privet caboose
Posted by: hotshot revan II
Lol at the people trying to defend Bungie ,can't they really see the HUGE destruction of canon.

Look here

The Pillar Of Autumn was already waiting for Noble Team on hte 29th of August.

"...Perhaps more. You are to take her to the UNSC ship-breaking yards in Aszod. There, you will find a Halycon-class cruiser waiting to get her off planet."

Auntie Dot: "The ship-breaking yard in Azsod. The only off-planet extraction point left on this continent. Small scale air attacks have decimated many convoys en route. An armada of Covenant cruisers have hastened to side as well. UNSC cruiser, Pillar of Autumn is awaiting for your arrival."

Oops looks liek the Autumn was already on Reach on the 29th.How did they dropped Red and Blue team?

Halsey was stuck in SWORD base during operation uppercut till the day Noble saves her and yet she somehow talks to her sII's during her briefing on Operation Red Flag?

Face it Bungie destroyed the canon and they know it but don't care for it.


Really good catch.

Now the whole, "They dropped off the Spartan II's then landed," thing is now false.


This is addressed to both of you, Revan and Caboose.

The start of that level is evening/nightfall of the 29th, 26:16 Hours to be exact (I believe Reach has a 26 hour day?), the part where Dot is talking it's bright out, like early morning, I'd say 0700-0830 give or take, so you would have transitioned to the 30th mid level, and the extraction of Blue Team+Marines is about 0616-0630, and since we don't know the exact time on the 30th that Emile, Carter, and 6 set out for Azod, I'd say the Autumn had plenty of time to get down there after picking Blue Team and the Marines up.

  • 11.15.2010 2:54 PM PDT


Posted by: privet caboose
Posted by: Alf stewert

Posted by: privet caboose
Reach did break canon.

Infact, it breaks canon within the first 5 minutes of the game. Reach fell on August 30th. That's the day the Covenant found Reach, and decimated the UNSC Fleet. All in one day.

The game says that the UNSC lost in over a months time. And without the UNSC even putting up a real fight. It was as if Reach was some random farmer colony.
thats stupid reach falling in month is alot better than 2 hours it goes to show how in death times we cover everything up, Humanity covers everything up if they think they can deal with it without evacuating or helping others, in other words if you were their an oni opprative would you evacuate everyone or if you had a chance to kill a small fleet and you had the resources would you send them to kill the covenant?


/Facedesk.

OF COURSE IT WAS ONE DAY. IT WAS 750+ COVENANT SHIPS VERSUS 300 UNSC SHIPS.

It has nothing to do with "Covering it up." Reach was the military's strongest stronghold. If the Covenant was on it, ONI wouldn't stick around, they'd fall back. When a planet is found by the Covenant, the UNSC almost never won it back.
/AUSSIE MEGAPUNCH TO BALLS, the longer way of the battle means that humanity had a great fighting chance, or uh lets see if you use your own bloody imagination you can piece it together. of course oni would run but their orders woudnt so if they ordered a fraction of marines and artillery to one continent to fight off a advance party knowing they had the firepower to quell them they would and not wanting the planet to get all crazy they would sabotage certain areas to keep it quiet so it woudnt escalade to millions of people trying to barge off reach, rioting, mass chaos ETC, common this is basic human instincts.

[Edited on 11.15.2010 3:01 PM PST]

  • 11.15.2010 2:57 PM PDT
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Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: privet caboose
Posted by: hotshot revan II
Lol at the people trying to defend Bungie ,can't they really see the HUGE destruction of canon.

Look here

The Pillar Of Autumn was already waiting for Noble Team on hte 29th of August.

"...Perhaps more. You are to take her to the UNSC ship-breaking yards in Aszod. There, you will find a Halycon-class cruiser waiting to get her off planet."

Auntie Dot: "The ship-breaking yard in Azsod. The only off-planet extraction point left on this continent. Small scale air attacks have decimated many convoys en route. An armada of Covenant cruisers have hastened to side as well. UNSC cruiser, Pillar of Autumn is awaiting for your arrival."

Oops looks liek the Autumn was already on Reach on the 29th.How did they dropped Red and Blue team?

Halsey was stuck in SWORD base during operation uppercut till the day Noble saves her and yet she somehow talks to her sII's during her briefing on Operation Red Flag?

Face it Bungie destroyed the canon and they know it but don't care for it.


Really good catch.

Now the whole, "They dropped off the Spartan II's then landed," thing is now false.


This is addressed to both of you, Revan and Caboose.

The start of that level is evening/nightfall of the 29th, 26:16 Hours to be exact (I believe Reach has a 26 hour day?), the part where Dot is talking it's bright out, like early morning, I'd say 0700-0830 give or take, so you would have transitioned to the 30th mid level, and the extraction of Blue Team+Marines is about 0616-0630, and since we don't know the exact time on the 30th that Emile, Carter, and 6 set out for Azod, I'd say the Autumn had plenty of time to get down there after picking Blue Team and the Marines up.


Just checked, that level begins almost like 00:00 of August 30th, because Reach has 27 hours a day and there's a midnight in the beginning of The Package level.

Also, I'm sure The Package level ending where Jun and rest of the Noble Team departs in different pelicans takes place in the morning, and in the the same as when the PoA flees the planet on August 30 as there's already sun rising, and there's certainly no day gap in that scene.

  • 11.15.2010 3:15 PM PDT