Bungie Universe
This topic has moved here: Subject: Halo Reach Did not Destroy the Canon
  • Subject: Halo Reach Did not Destroy the Canon
Subject: Halo Reach Did not Destroy the Canon


Posted by: privet caboose
Posted by: flamedude
I just never felt overwhelmed or blown away by any battle in Halo Reach. We only had 1 tank in the whole Campaign (which was inexplicably just sitting in the middle of a warzone), we didn't fight any Scarabs for some mad reason, there were no 3-way battles like in Halo1 or Halo2.

I personally think it is the weakest Halo campaign in terms of storyline and gameplay. I think I might actually prefer the Halo 2 campaign, and I never thought I'd ever say that.


I have no idea what possessed Bungie to remove Scarabs as an enemy in Reach. It was just stupid. The covenant are invading and we, a team of spartans, don't fight a single one the entire campaign? We see 10+ Scarabs throughout the game, but I guess we weren't good enough to kill one.

I mean hell, Carter didn't need to kill himself. Emile or Six could've easily taken one down. Chief kills five scarabs in the last few months of the war, Fred and the rest of Blue team kill atleast one more while on Cuba, and even a team of ODST's kill one.

And yet Bungie wasted a spartan life for something a couple ODST's could kill. =/

As soon as I heard Carter say "I've got the mass" I yelled, and I quiote;
"Don't do it you #$%%#$# idiot! I can take out that thing with plasma pistol!"

It really makes no sense. Unless they used the Halo 2 indestructible model Scarab. But it was the Halo 3, Death Star esque flawed model.

And, actually, I'd like to know why Carter thought it was a good idea to launch Six and Emile from the back of the Pelican, to have them fight their way to the Autumn, when he was able to keep the Pelican flying for most of the level.

Granted, maybe he didn't think the Pelican was going to last much longer, but if he hadn't dropped Emile and Six off, they wouldn't have been face to face with the Scarab, and Carter wouldn't have had to sacrifice himself.

I'd also like to know why Halsey didn't go with them to the Autumn. Did she just not want to live? It would seem, to me anyway, that if Halsey and Jun had been on that Pelican, Jun could have sniped down the Banshee's, Carter could have flown them right into the Autumn's hanger, and maybe even have stopped to pick up the Marines at the ship-breaking yard.

I suppose you could make the Argument that Halsey needed to get to CASTLE Base to destroy the Data there, but, as the game said, she was thought to be KIA, and therefor, ONI would have left someone else behind at CASTLE to destroy the information.

[Edited on 11.18.2010 8:07 PM PST]

  • 11.18.2010 7:56 PM PDT

Dianna Agron is the epitome of perfection.

Quinntology.

Posted by: flamedude
Did anyone want a fighter sequence? Or would you have prefered to see a Super MAC tearing up Covenant ships?

Did anyone want to be a Spartan-III involved with outside events? Or did you want to be in the thick of it with Red Team?


And there lies the problem. They wanted new and old information in the game. They did not want to alienate any fan who hasn't read the books by putting in material that wasn't directly from the games (besides Halsey and the SIII's). It would have made a lot more sense than to take a few "random" SPARTAN II's from Red Team and detail their story of defending a generator and could have kept virtually the same climax and ending. Imagine the opening cutscene of viewing space combat and then diving into atmosphere with a Pelican, only to have it shot down and be foreced to free fall to the surface of Reach.

  • 11.19.2010 1:17 PM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

Posted by: Killed by Pasta
Posted by: flamedude
Did anyone want a fighter sequence? Or would you have prefered to see a Super MAC tearing up Covenant ships?

Did anyone want to be a Spartan-III involved with outside events? Or did you want to be in the thick of it with Red Team?


And there lies the problem. They wanted new and old information in the game. They did not want to alienate any fan who hasn't read the books by putting in material that wasn't directly from the games (besides Halsey and the SIII's). It would have made a lot more sense than to take a few "random" SPARTAN II's from Red Team and detail their story of defending a generator and could have kept virtually the same climax and ending. Imagine the opening cutscene of viewing space combat and then diving into atmosphere with a Pelican, only to have it shot down and be foreced to free fall to the surface of Reach.
Halo: Reach's story is catered more to the "haven't read the books" fans than the hardcore fans.

I understand them wanting to find that balance, but Reach doesn't have it. No where near it, IMO.

[Edited on 11.19.2010 1:53 PM PST]

  • 11.19.2010 1:53 PM PDT


Posted by: xXFatal v1
Posted by: Killed by Pasta
Posted by: flamedude
Did anyone want a fighter sequence? Or would you have prefered to see a Super MAC tearing up Covenant ships?

Did anyone want to be a Spartan-III involved with outside events? Or did you want to be in the thick of it with Red Team?


And there lies the problem. They wanted new and old information in the game. They did not want to alienate any fan who hasn't read the books by putting in material that wasn't directly from the games (besides Halsey and the SIII's). It would have made a lot more sense than to take a few "random" SPARTAN II's from Red Team and detail their story of defending a generator and could have kept virtually the same climax and ending. Imagine the opening cutscene of viewing space combat and then diving into atmosphere with a Pelican, only to have it shot down and be foreced to free fall to the surface of Reach.
Halo: Reach's story is catered more to the "haven't read the books" fans than the hardcore fans.

I understand them wanting to find that balance, but Reach doesn't have it. No where near it, IMO.


The games have always been catered to the people who haven't read the books with little juicy bits from the books thrown in to provide something a little extra for those who do read the books, Reach didn't change this formula at all. And ultimately, it doesn't matter how much the story is changed, it's Bungie's story, well actually 343i and Microsoft's now, and they can change/add whatever the hell they want.

  • 11.19.2010 2:23 PM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

Nobody seems to realize that Red Team's story was very short.
You cannot make a good game gameplay and a story about any of them without screwing the canon even more than Halo: Reach ever ''had''.

Yeah, I was originally looking for playing as a Spartan-II from Team Beta, but then I realized we already knows what happens to them in a very short time and it wouldn't make up for a good exciting story.

  • 11.19.2010 2:46 PM PDT

All I ask is that you don't try to capture me.


Posted by: manwith
Nobody seems to realize that Red Team's story was very short.
You cannot make a good game gameplay and a story about any of them without screwing the canon even more than Halo: Reach ever ''had''.

Yeah, I was originally looking for playing as a Spartan-II from Team Beta, but then I realized we already knows what happens to them in a very short time and it wouldn't make up for a good exciting story.


Making Reach in the first place was probably going to break canon, and I do think that it would have been necessary in order to weave an actual game into the story. However, the way Bungie handled it was just awful.

What they should have done was say, "hey guys, First Strike is now non-canon. We're changing it (because we can) to make this new game." Then they could make Reach about the Spartan IIs, the orbital generators, and whatever Forerunner macguffin they want to fit into the plot. It would be a better, more coherent game, and the Halo universe wouldn't suffer as much.

Instead, in a half-assed attempt to preserve canon, Bungie retconned, rethought or ignored a whole bunch of story across at least 3 books to make Reach's lukewarm, uninspired plot. They pulled the bottom pieces out of the Jenga tower of Halo canon, and now that it's teetering on collapse they have the nerve to say that it "perfectly fits" and that nothing's wrong.

  • 11.19.2010 3:01 PM PDT

On hiding dead bodies:
Posted by: Psuedo
Posted by: teh Chaz
Inside another dead body. It's the last place they'll look
A corpse within a corpse.
CORPSEPTION.
Win.

Posted by: TheRedFlag
Instead, in a half-assed attempt to preserve canon, Bungie retconned, rethought or ignored a whole bunch of story across at least 3 books to make Reach's lukewarm, uninspired plot. They pulled the bottom pieces out of the Jenga tower of Halo canon, and now that it's teetering on collapse they have the nerve to say that it "perfectly fits" and that nothing's wrong.
Which to me, is the metaphorical equivalent of blowing on this unstable tower.

It's wobbled a few times near the end of September, with final story elements (like PoA, SPARTANS in cryo, Keyes)... will it topple completely?

  • 11.19.2010 3:33 PM PDT

Dianna Agron is the epitome of perfection.

Quinntology.

Posted by: manwith
Nobody seems to realize that Red Team's story was very short.
You cannot make a good game gameplay and a story about any of them without screwing the canon even more than Halo: Reach ever ''had''.

Yeah, I was originally looking for playing as a Spartan-II from Team Beta, but then I realized we already knows what happens to them in a very short time and it wouldn't make up for a good exciting story.


It wasn't a short amount of time. Red Team defended the generators for longer than expected. The problem I have is that creating a brand new Noble Team would have been the same as creating a group of SPARTANS from Red Team. It would have been largely the same story of sacrifice and protection. And you could have had the Autumn, Keyes, and Halsey without destroying the Halo Universe. In addition, you could have also included space combat and given a lot more variety in the game with the inclusion of urban battle, underground fighting, etc.

  • 11.19.2010 4:07 PM PDT

On Waypoint I'm rocketFox;
http://halo.xbox.com/forums/members/rocketfox/default.aspx

Old GTs; RebelRobot, Flamedude

Posted by: Killed by Pasta
Posted by: manwith
Nobody seems to realize that Red Team's story was very short.
You cannot make a good game gameplay and a story about any of them without screwing the canon even more than Halo: Reach ever ''had''.

Yeah, I was originally looking for playing as a Spartan-II from Team Beta, but then I realized we already knows what happens to them in a very short time and it wouldn't make up for a good exciting story.


It wasn't a short amount of time. Red Team defended the generators for longer than expected. The problem I have is that creating a brand new Noble Team would have been the same as creating a group of SPARTANS from Red Team. It would have been largely the same story of sacrifice and protection. And you could have had the Autumn, Keyes, and Halsey without destroying the Halo Universe. In addition, you could have also included space combat and given a lot more variety in the game with the inclusion of urban battle, underground fighting, etc.


I agree. The creation of a doomed bizarre squad of Spartan-IIIs was way more of a stretch than stepping into the boots of a Red Team Spartan-II. We don't know the specifics of the Red Teams last stand, I personally thought it would have been a good way to go.

Expanding on the generator defense would certainly be more forgivable than the story of Noble. For instance it could have come down to the final Spartan-II of Red Team, trying to keep the generator going so the Super MAC could gut that one last Covenant ship to ensure the PoAs escape. Ensuring PoA escape would have been a massive contribution to the victory over the Covenant, regardless of the Forerunner Cortana fragment.

  • 11.19.2010 5:26 PM PDT

In a room filled with kings and queens some days i feel like the jester!...

well Contact Harveat kind of breaks canon with the appearance of brutes in the year 2524 when Master Cheif and Blue Team board the Unyielding Hierophant in the 2552 judging by the groups reaction to the brutes they had never heard of or seen this new covy race and as for a giant super carrier just coasting in the atmosphere they would heard it breaking through the toposphere that thing wouldn't have snuck up on anyone.

And if they did have cloaking ability which by the way has never ben seen by any UNSC personnel who had actually survived a space fight with the covenant why not assemble the spire on the carrier surely it's more plausible than putting on the ground where a bunch of humans could just simply blow it up where's the logic in that?!

[Edited on 11.19.2010 6:59 PM PST]

  • 11.19.2010 6:52 PM PDT

In a room filled with kings and queens some days i feel like the jester!...

Plus it just makes more sense to formally introduce red team and or blue team we've all read the books..i think and we all know not all the spartans died on reach. I keep playing the game and it still doesn't make sense. when what's left of noble reaches Dr. Halsey and the apparent "cortana" why would she say to the inquiring spartans that what they were seeing was a "birthright from an ancient race" So off the bat you're telling us that Dr. Halsey knew who and what the Foreruners were to humanity and that Ghosts of Onyx should've also been thrown out as canon?

  • 11.19.2010 7:09 PM PDT

Dark Neptune, a young amateur astronomer whose gaming life is no different from other teenagers of his age, though he controls it more strictly then others.


Posted by: Jay The Nailer
well Contact Harveat kind of breaks canon with the appearance of brutes in the year 2524 when Master Cheif and Blue Team board the Unyielding Hierophant in the 2552 judging by the groups reaction to the brutes they had never heard of or seen this new covy race and as for a giant super carrier just coasting in the atmosphere they would heard it breaking through the toposphere that thing wouldn't have snuck up on anyone.

And if they did have cloaking ability which by the way has never ben seen by any UNSC personnel who had actually survived a space fight with the covenant why not assemble the spire on the carrier surely it's more plausible than putting on the ground where a bunch of humans could just simply blow it up where's the logic in that?!


Outdated canon. The 2001 edition of Fall of Reach stated that Master Chief or any other UNSC forces never encountered Hunters or Elites prior to the battles of Sigma Octanus IV and Reach respectively, but in games like Halo Wars and others like Halo Legends, they have encountered them before.

Same here. It's just that some of these canon were outdated. Small issue. Big issues are the serious inconsistencies that were suppose to go along with each other.

  • 11.19.2010 8:42 PM PDT

Dark Neptune, a young amateur astronomer whose gaming life is no different from other teenagers of his age, though he controls it more strictly then others.

In case you guys didn't realise, Carter's death was stupid. He had energy shields and a damn pilot seat to shield himself from the Plasma, yet Emile and Six and are nearer to the exit of the Pelican, but they are fine?

Ironically, when Six gets hit by plasma from banshees, his/her energy shields shows him/her being able to withstand the damage. Yet Carter's further protected in the cockpit of the Pelican, glass still intact, but he's bleeding?

  • 11.19.2010 8:45 PM PDT

Dianna Agron is the epitome of perfection.

Quinntology.

Posted by: flamedude
Expanding on the generator defense would certainly be more forgivable than the story of Noble. For instance it could have come down to the final Spartan-II of Red Team, trying to keep the generator going so the Super MAC could gut that one last Covenant ship to ensure the PoAs escape. Ensuring PoA escape would have been a massive contribution to the victory over the Covenant, regardless of the Forerunner Cortana fragment.


Exactly, we're thinking on the exact same page here. But alas, I get a game that dissapoints me in almost all aspects.

Oh well. I look forward to the novels. Makes me wonder if the book coming after Ghost of Onyx will clarify anything or screw everything up even more.

  • 11.19.2010 11:12 PM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

"Time was your ally human. But now it has abandoned you. The Forerunners....have returned. And this tomb... is now yours". - The Didact


Posted by: Dark Neptune
In case you guys didn't realise, Carter's death was stupid. He had energy shields and a damn pilot seat to shield himself from the Plasma, yet Emile and Six and are nearer to the exit of the Pelican, but they are fine?

Ironically, when Six gets hit by plasma from banshees, his/her energy shields shows him/her being able to withstand the damage. Yet Carter's further protected in the cockpit of the Pelican, glass still intact, but he's bleeding?


This,beatiful post

Bungie made the UNSC,Covenant and Spartans in this game look like the largest morons in the history.

Why were those spartans fighting like -blam!- in close quarters against sword wielding elites,Blue team in Halo legends succeeded in holding of those sword wieling elites in hand to hand combat

How did ONI kept the covenant invasion secret all the time if the goddamn covenant bombarded Reach during oepration uppercut and the entire viery territory is defeated.

Why are noble team spartans so stupid for not wearing their helmet in a war?

How did Halsey somehow talks with her sII during the RED flag briefing while she was stuck in SWORD base?

How did the UNSC fleet survived the covenant fleet for one month even if the SMAC were disabled in the time of tip of the spear

List goes on

Bungie completely destroyed Halo canon
And it's funny how bungie fanbioys are trying to defend that game

Oh the irony,bungie fanboys claim 343 messes up with halo canon and now Reach comes and is a larger canon breach then any halo book,game combined

Bungie i hope you guys will never touch the Halo unviverse again

List goes on

  • 11.20.2010 3:22 AM PDT


Posted by: hotshot revan II

Posted by: Dark Neptune
In case you guys didn't realise, Carter's death was stupid. He had energy shields and a damn pilot seat to shield himself from the Plasma, yet Emile and Six and are nearer to the exit of the Pelican, but they are fine?

Ironically, when Six gets hit by plasma from banshees, his/her energy shields shows him/her being able to withstand the damage. Yet Carter's further protected in the cockpit of the Pelican, glass still intact, but he's bleeding?


This,beatiful post

Bungie made the UNSC,Covenant and Spartans in this game look like the largest morons in the history.

Why were those spartans fighting like -blam!- in close quarters against sword wielding elites,Blue team in Halo legends succeeded in holding of those sword wieling elites in hand to hand combat

How did ONI kept the covenant invasion secret all the time if the goddamn covenant bombarded Reach during oepration uppercut and the entire viery territory is defeated.

Why are noble team spartans so stupid for not wearing their helmet in a war?

How did Halsey somehow talks with her sII during the RED flag briefing while she was stuck in SWORD base?

How did the UNSC fleet survived the covenant fleet for one month even if the SMAC were disabled in the time of tip of the spear

List goes on

Bungie completely destroyed Halo canon
And it's funny how bungie fanbioys are trying to defend that game

Oh the irony,bungie fanboys claim 343 messes up with halo canon and now Reach comes and is a larger canon breach then any halo book,game combined

Bungie i hope you guys will never touch the Halo unviverse again

List goes on
well the advance team attacked the viery sector throughout the game untill august 30th were the main 700 ships came and killed reach

[Edited on 11.20.2010 3:26 AM PST]

  • 11.20.2010 3:26 AM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

"Time was your ally human. But now it has abandoned you. The Forerunners....have returned. And this tomb... is now yours". - The Didact


Posted by: Alf stewert

Posted by: hotshot revan II

Posted by: Dark Neptune
In case you guys didn't realise, Carter's death was stupid. He had energy shields and a damn pilot seat to shield himself from the Plasma, yet Emile and Six and are nearer to the exit of the Pelican, but they are fine?

Ironically, when Six gets hit by plasma from banshees, his/her energy shields shows him/her being able to withstand the damage. Yet Carter's further protected in the cockpit of the Pelican, glass still intact, but he's bleeding?


This,beatiful post

Bungie made the UNSC,Covenant and Spartans in this game look like the largest morons in the history.

Why were those spartans fighting like -blam!- in close quarters against sword wielding elites,Blue team in Halo legends succeeded in holding of those sword wieling elites in hand to hand combat

How did ONI kept the covenant invasion secret all the time if the goddamn covenant bombarded Reach during oepration uppercut and the entire viery territory is defeated.

Why are noble team spartans so stupid for not wearing their helmet in a war?

How did Halsey somehow talks with her sII during the RED flag briefing while she was stuck in SWORD base?

How did the UNSC fleet survived the covenant fleet for one month even if the SMAC were disabled in the time of tip of the spear

List goes on

Bungie completely destroyed Halo canon
And it's funny how bungie fanbioys are trying to defend that game

Oh the irony,bungie fanboys claim 343 messes up with halo canon and now Reach comes and is a larger canon breach then any halo book,game combined

Bungie i hope you guys will never touch the Halo unviverse again

List goes on
well the advance team attacked the viery sector throughout the game untill august 30th were the main 700 ships came and killed reach


Accoring t that game the main fleet arrived shortly after the death of Jorge,i don't -blam!- now how a UNSC fleet would survive that for a month

  • 11.20.2010 3:32 AM PDT


Posted by: hotshot revan II

Posted by: Alf stewert

Posted by: hotshot revan II

Posted by: Dark Neptune
In case you guys didn't realise, Carter's death was stupid. He had energy shields and a damn pilot seat to shield himself from the Plasma, yet Emile and Six and are nearer to the exit of the Pelican, but they are fine?

Ironically, when Six gets hit by plasma from banshees, his/her energy shields shows him/her being able to withstand the damage. Yet Carter's further protected in the cockpit of the Pelican, glass still intact, but he's bleeding?


This,beatiful post

Bungie made the UNSC,Covenant and Spartans in this game look like the largest morons in the history.

Why were those spartans fighting like -blam!- in close quarters against sword wielding elites,Blue team in Halo legends succeeded in holding of those sword wieling elites in hand to hand combat

How did ONI kept the covenant invasion secret all the time if the goddamn covenant bombarded Reach during oepration uppercut and the entire viery territory is defeated.

Why are noble team spartans so stupid for not wearing their helmet in a war?

How did Halsey somehow talks with her sII during the RED flag briefing while she was stuck in SWORD base?

How did the UNSC fleet survived the covenant fleet for one month even if the SMAC were disabled in the time of tip of the spear

List goes on

Bungie completely destroyed Halo canon
And it's funny how bungie fanbioys are trying to defend that game

Oh the irony,bungie fanboys claim 343 messes up with halo canon and now Reach comes and is a larger canon breach then any halo book,game combined

Bungie i hope you guys will never touch the Halo unviverse again

List goes on
well the advance team attacked the viery sector throughout the game untill august 30th were the main 700 ships came and killed reach


Accoring t that game the main fleet arrived shortly after the death of Jorge,i don't -blam!- now how a UNSC fleet would survive that for a month
holland thought it was the main fleet chances are it was a small advacne party checking in on the advancee party that didnt report in a while or something like that, you notice the fleet came in the exact spot the viery territory was, imagination to work things out is a great thing makes a way of explaining things before they are offcially explained

  • 11.20.2010 4:11 AM PDT

How did ONI kept the covenant invasion secret all the time if the goddamn covenant bombarded Reach during oepration uppercut and the entire viery territory is defeated.

Of course they couldn't keep it secret once the Super Carrier decloaked, but they didn't officially say the Covenant were on Reach until after the Covenant fleet arrives.

Why were those spartans fighting like -blam!- in close quarters against sword wielding elites,Blue team in Halo legends succeeded in holding of those sword wieling elites in hand to hand combat.

Do you mean on the Winter Contingency level? Or do you mean wehen Emile dies on the Pillar of Aututmn level? The Elites on the first level ambushed them, and Noble Team kicked their asses, why else would the Zealots retreat?
And as for Emile's death, he was all by himself and the one who killed him snuck up on him. I can't think of any other instance you might be talking about.

Why are noble team spartans so stupid for not wearing their helmet in a war?

Um, they always wear their helmets, except in the cutscenes, and even then they are not in combat or near it when they take them off, every single time they're in combat situations they wear their helmets.

How did the UNSC fleet survived the covenant fleet for one month even if the SMAC were disabled in the time of tip of the spear

Dot only says the orbital defense generators have come under attack, and it sounds like it's only orbital defense in the Viery Territory, so it'd only be that specific continent where the ODPs are down, if they even are.

How did Halsey somehow talks with her sII during the RED flag briefing while she was stuck in SWORD base?

well there are two options for this one, either she wasn't stuck there, or the briefing happened earlier than the 29th, earlier briefing being the more probable.

Bungie completely destroyed Halo canon
And it's funny how bungie fanbioys are trying to defend that game

Oh the irony,bungie fanboys claim 343 messes up with halo canon and now Reach comes and is a larger canon breach then any halo book,game combined

Bungie i hope you guys will never touch the Halo unviverse again.


Ah, I was wondering when the "anyone who supports Bungie in any way is an ignorant and blind fanboy" argument would come up, and this argument holds no water whatsoever, and I don't find it insulting, I just laugh, being a "fanboy" is a compliment xD

And actually the "fanboys" are the smart ones, rather than sitting there passively with their hands over their ears screaming "Canon is ruined, canon is ruined, canon is ruined, -blam!- Bungie they ruined the story, wah, wah, wah..." like the nay-sayers and doom-and-glooms, they try to come up with reasons for how the new story fits within the old stories and canon.

I have seen very, very, very few people saying 343i messed up the cannon, and frankly they're the ones who are idiots because 343i hasn't done anything yet, I say give 'em a chance.

I say "Bring it on Bungie, I'm ready for your glorious return to the Halo franchise whenever you're ready!"

  • 11.20.2010 1:48 PM PDT
  • gamertag: An0nz
  • user homepage:

CoD is a good game, even if the Halo series are better in some aspects. Anyone who insults either is just bad in that game. Grow up.



I'm sorry Coma but I don't know if you're really like this or you really just covering your ears and going "lalalalala". I used to be like you, protecting the story no matter what, but I am a fan of the halo story, not to Bungie, especially if they are going to pull something like this and act like nothing's happened. And this new story is not worth protecting.
The story is good, but not great, and is more trouble than it's worth.

Why? Because they left far too many questions and loopholes than a final parting game should. What most thoughtful fans who disagree with the new storyline do so because the changes affects far more than they appear to. It is essentially like the butterfly effect, change one small thing, and it will lead to another change, and that will lead to another, and the cycle goes on and on.

For example, the presence, or lack there of, of the Spartan IIs is one huge topic. We all know that Spartan IIs are just as capable, if not more so, than Noble Team, and there were at least 20 Spartan IIs on Reach. They could have easily have done what Noble Team did, since in the beginning there were only a few Covenant ships, and in TFoR, 3 Spartan IIs from Red Team were able to destroy a Covenant Ship in orbit. Meaning that they were definitely capable of taking out the Covenant ships, and should have done so in the beginning.

So where were they? Just hunkering down near the ODP generators? They would at least sent a small detachment like they did in TFoR to do something about the Covenant. Spartans don't just sit and wait to die. For them, the best defense is a good offense. But this is just an example out of the many, many questions that Reach has raised. And these questions aren't just about whether or not a fact is accurate, but rather what would happen if it is accurate or not.

If the fans have to be the one clearing up everything, then you know that Bungie has not been responsible to their own creations. Fans have come up with different theories, but until Bungie admits their mistake and officially tries to fix it, they will remain theories, neither sides (pro-Reach or not) would be correct.





[Edited on 11.20.2010 10:40 PM PST]

  • 11.20.2010 10:35 PM PDT

Posted by: Beowolfe
I'm sorry Coma but I don't know if you're really like this or you really just covering your ears and going "lalalalala". I used to be like you, protecting the story no matter what, but I am a fan of the halo story, not to Bungie, especially if they are going to pull something like this and act like nothing's happened. And this new story is not worth protecting.
The story is good, but not great, and is more trouble than it's worth.


I'm not covering my ears, and I'll be the first to admit that there are some flaws that theories are hard to fix, all I have been trying to do is point out that people are over-reacting in their statements that the canon is completely destroyed. To be honest I'm more inclined to believe that most of the nay-sayers are the ones covering their ears :/ Most of them I have seen just saying "no, the canon is destroyed you're wrong", to all the arguments of the people like me trying to make sense of the new addition to the story and proposing their ideas on the new timeline.

I am a fan of Bungie yes, but I don't put them on a god-like status and pedestal, I acknowledge they are mere mortals like the rest of us, but from all I have seen they are the best game developers out there. Mainly because they actually work to improve their game after it's out, and because they do their best to fix the mistakes in their game.

Why? Because they left far too many questions and loopholes than a final parting game should. What most thoughtful fans who disagree with the new storyline do so because the changes affects far more than they appear to. It is essentially like the butterfly effect, change one small thing, and it will lead to another change, and that will lead to another, and the cycle goes on and on.

I don't see that many loopholes, what sort of stuff are you referring to there? I'd assume that the leaving of loopholes would be to let 343 have a lot more story possibilities than they would have had before.

Care to elaborate on your butterfly effect point affecting the story in a specific instance? Your point intrigues me and I want to see if you have any particular instances you're thinking of. I really don't think they changed anything that major, but I haven't gotten very far in the books yet either.

For example, the presence, or lack there of, of the Spartan IIs is one huge topic. We all know that Spartan IIs are just as capable, if not more so, than Noble Team, and there were at least 20 Spartan IIs on Reach. They could have easily have done what Noble Team did, since in the beginning there were only a few Covenant ships, and in TFoR, 3 Spartan IIs from Red Team were able to destroy a Covenant Ship in orbit. Meaning that they were definitely capable of taking out the Covenant ships, and should have done so in the beginning.

So where were they? Just hunkering down near the ODP generators? They would at least sent a small detachment like they did in TFoR to do something about the Covenant. Spartans don't just sit and wait to die. For them, the best defense is a good offense. But this is just an example out of the many, many questions that Reach has raised. And these questions aren't just about whether or not a fact is accurate, but rather what would happen if it is accurate or not.


This will probably not be a satisfying argument, but I would say we didn't really see anything in regards to SIIs is because:
1.) it isn't there story, this about Noble Team and their deaths. I guess it'd kinda be like the battle with Regret's fleet in H2, you only get to see the small bit that involved Chief, you didn't necessarily know that there was more of a battle going on and it kinda felt like you were doing most of the defense and that it was all concentrated around New Mombasa. Then we have GoO, I think, that gives the events of what the Spartans who made up Red Team were doing during this time, and ODST which goes more in death into the battle for New Mombasa.

And 2.) Bungie stated that Reach is taking part on a different area of the planet than the events of TFoR, so it kinda makes sense that we wouldn't see much the other battles going on in different locations.

You are right, they would not be hunkering down, unless ordered to, one problem with the SIIs is that almost any officer can boss them around and spend them foolishly or deploy them to a bad position; they would naturally be doing everything they could to aid in the defense of Reach, but again, the game is about Noble Team, not the SIIs.

If the fans have to be the one clearing up everything, then you know that Bungie has not been responsible to their own creations. Fans have come up with different theories, but until Bungie admits their mistake and officially tries to fix it, they will remain theories, neither sides (pro-Reach or not) would be correct.

The fans don't have to be the ones to repair the breaches, I'm pretty sure, given Bungie's track record that they will fix anything they think are errors, but until Bungie does do something, I'll take theories over just sitting around being mad at Bungie for "messing up their story".

I wouldn't say they are mistakes at all, TFoR is 9+ years old and their have already been a lot of retcons to it already. Given that Halo was relatively new-born when TFoR came out the whole over-arching story was incomplete, so Nylund would have had to take a lot of creative license with it, and obviously Bungie has continued to come up with the story for Reach and the rest of the Haloverse since then, so it makes sense to me for the dates and length of the battle to have changed.

  • 11.21.2010 10:52 AM PDT

shameless bumpity bumping we go...

and because I have time now that school is out I'll outline my thoughts on the whole "broken canon" thing. Basically consider this a new OP :P

Events of TFoR take place exactly as they were up to Sigma Octanus. We don't really know when the Iroquois gets back to Reach, so it is entirely possible for the Covenant invasion of Reach to take place when the game depicts. Anyway, sometime between when the Iroquois returns to Reach and July 24th the scouting/advance force arrives on Reach and are discovered by Noble on the 24th.

The first few levels of Reach play out until Tip of the Spear, and then the battle in the Viery Territory occurs and the Long Night of Solace is discovered and Noble is dispatched to destroy it.

On a minor note, Operation Red Flag briefing no longer makes sense on its original date, same with the field testing of the Mark V armor. I place Op RF briefing on the 14th, and even though the main Covenant fleet arrives after the Solace is destroyed, the mission proceeds as planned more urgent than ever due to the discovery of Reach.

The SIIs are not sent to the Autumn until the 29th of August, and before then are aiding in the ground battle against the Covies.

The invasion no longer takes place on the 30th and instead starts on the 14th.

The Autumn is leaving system when they go back to try and capture a Covie ship during the battle. The end of TFoR then takes place the same as in the book. After Keyes retrieves Chief and the group from the station the Circumference is docked in, it receives a message from Halsey to return to the planet, and then the end of Reach plays out.

And that is more or less my timeline.

  • 12.14.2010 1:49 PM PDT

Oh hey there

Posted by: petarded2
It's a metaphor for the 07s' lack of identity. too old to be newfa­g, yet too new to be oldfa­g, we wander b.net in search of a home, forever trying to be something we are not.

I have largely ignored this thread for a long time but since you decided to break the rules and bump it back up I will respond.
Events of TFoR take place exactly as they were up to Sigma Octanus. We don't really know when the Iroquois gets back to Reach, so it is entirely possible for the Covenant invasion of Reach to take place when the game depicts. Anyway, sometime between when the Iroquois returns to Reach and July 24th the scouting/advance force arrives on Reach and are discovered by Noble on the 24th.
This breaks canon. In every instance of Halo lore be it novels or whatever the invasion date has always been August 30th 2552, if it doesn't take place on this date it throws off the dates for all of the novels. They completely changed the entire story line by adding this advanced fleet. The Cole Protocol would have been enacted and every ship board computer would have been wiped clean so the Spartans would not have had to split up to go to the Circumference, which is supposed to take place just as they are fleeing Reach, and to fight on the ground. So the Chief would be on the ground with the rest of the SII's fighting to keep the generators for the mac guns active and would have been trapped in the ruins or killed just like the rest of the SII's. If you don't get to how ridiculous Noble Team's presence on Reach is and how Halsey should not know about them I'll discuss that later.

The SIIs are not sent to the Autumn until the 29th of August, and before then are aiding in the ground battle against the Covies.The Spartan II's are aiding in the ground battle? It makes no sense for them to be aiding in the ground battle only to be recalled to the Autumn only to have the majority of them jump back into the atmosphere becoming heavily injured in the process if they were just going to stay and continue fighting anyway.

The invasion no longer takes place on the 30th and instead starts on the 14th.Why would it start on the 14th? Even Bungie tried to keep the date of the main invasion the same making the final level take place on the the 30th. The 14th is apparently this small force used by the Covenant to scout Reach. But again the moment they were discovered the Cole Protocol would have been declared all ship board nav systems would be destroyed and there would be more than a month between then and the actual invasion where the Chief has to destroy the nav data on the circumference. Throwing wrenches into TFor's story.

The Autumn is leaving system when they go back to try and capture a Covie ship during the battle. The end of TFoR then takes place the same as in the book. After Keyes retrieves Chief and the group from the station the Circumference is docked in, it receives a message from Halsey to return to the planet, and then the end of Reach plays out.Why is the Autumn going back into the system to capture a Covenant ship? Is this on the the 24th the day of the small force or is it on the 30th the day of the invasion? If the Covenant had already found Reach and the mission they were on was more important than saving Reach they would have jumped days ago instead of hanging around waiting. It was already returning on the 30th in real canon because the invasion was taking place and they needed the Spartan II's to defend the MAC generators. If the Autumn was going to land on the planet any way why would it have them jump to the planet? And why would they leave the planet in the first place only to return to get the piece of Cortana that Halsey was using to download Forerunner information if they were already at the planet why would they leave without that vital piece of information?

Now because you have completely ignored Noble Team and how Halsey could not have known about them I give you these arguments I had in an old thread.

Argument 1:
Posted by: Spartan1065
Posted by: hal0 slay3r661

Posted by: Spartan1065
Posted by: hal0 slay3r661
the spartans II's did share quite a bit with halsey, with her being their mother figure and such, jorge clearly knows about spartan III's and at least one of their missions (pegasi) its very possible he may have confided in her about it and she used her 200 IQ for some research.

Just the fact that Jorge is working with Spartan III's at all is a canon bomb. But if we let that slide then still the idea that she knew about the S III's before leaving Reach at the very least is laughable.
how is that... she hinted through out the books that she knew something was happening, the spartans also knew chief mendez was going to train another batch of spartans AND in GoO when she first made contact with the sIII's it had only confirmed what she already assumed, its not so far fetched and with a bit of imagination its possible.

She learned everything you just mentioned after Reach was being glassed except for the small portion where the Castle Oni base was. She learned these things by accident while attending to the wounds of one of her spartan II's. While in Kelly's medical files Kalmiya pointed out that Ackerson had been looking through her Spartan II's medical files. This prompted her to look through his files. Finding all that you just mentioned. But she wasn't able to read them at the time because Castle came under attack and they were forced to retreat into the ruins.

This all occurred AFTER the majority of Reach had been glassed thus AFTER the events of Halo Reach.


Argument 2:

Posted by: Spartan1065
Halsey knows every Spartan II that is left alive intimately. She was able to tell them apart by the way they moved even while in their armor so I think that she would know that she didn't create most of Noble Team, excluding Jorge of course.

So the idea of her just not knowing that they aren't her Spartans is out.


I don't expect you to change your position as people who are much more in the know about canon than I am have been trying to convince you. Just wanted to get all this out there.

[Edited on 12.14.2010 8:41 PM PST]

  • 12.14.2010 3:36 PM PDT

Posted by: Spartan1065
This breaks canon. In every instance of Halo lore be it novels or whatever the invasion date has always been August 30th 2552, if it doesn't take place on this date it throws off the dates for all of the novels. They completely changed the entire story line by adding this advanced fleet. The Cole Protocol would have been enacted and every ship board computer would have been wiped clean so the Spartans would not have had to split up to go to the Circumference, which is supposed to take place just as they are fleeing Reach, and to fight on the ground. So the Chief would be on the ground with the rest of the SII's fighting to keep the generators for the mac guns active and would have been trapped in the ruins or killed just like the rest of the SII's. If you don't get to how ridiculous Noble Team's presence on Reach is and how Halsey should not know about them I'll discuss that later.

The only dates it throws off are those in the latter portion of TFoR, it does not affect any of the other books at all, FS is the only one you can claim it does, and even then it doesn't mess anything up.

My understanding the Cole Protocol might be way off, but I've always understood it that it was only enacted in an area the Covenant were in and on objects in that specific area that were under threat of capture.

I do not see anything about Noble being on Reach ridiculous at all. And all Halsey knows about them from her brief encounters is that they're a rival Spartan project, she knows they're not hers, it would be dumb to think she doesn't.

The Spartan II's are aiding in the ground battle? It makes no sense for them to be aiding in the ground battle only to be recalled to the Autumn only to have the majority of them jump back into the atmosphere becoming heavily injured in the process if they were just going to stay and continue fighting anyway.

Why would it start on the 14th? Even Bungie tried to keep the date of the main invasion the same making the final level take place on the the 30th. Why have you decided to make it the 14th?


It makes more sense than it would having them sit useless on the Autumn, and jumping back down was not part of their plan, like a quote in Call of Duty 4 says "No plan survives first contact with the enemy in tact". If they were planning to go back down, or course it doesn't make sense, but the unexpected happens...alot. They were planning to capture a ship, but once they heard the state of the generators, and about the NAV Data on the Circumference, they split up.

Did you not notice the fleet coming in on the 14th of August right after the Long Night of Solace is destroyed, or are you simply ignoring it? I think this is supposed to be the fleet arriving on the 30th of August, I highly doubt that there would be two fleets coming to Reach at separate times.

Why is the Autumn going back into the system to capture a Covenant ship? Is this on the the 24th the day of the small force or is it on the 30th the day of the invasion? If the Covenant had already found Reach and the mission they were on was more important than saving Reach they would have jumped days ago instead of hanging around waiting. It was already returning on the 30th in real canon because the invasion was taking place and they needed the Spartan II's to defend the MAC generators. If the Autumn was going to land on the planet any way why would it have them jump to the planet? And why would they leave the planet in the first place only to return to get the piece of Cortana that Halsey was using to download Forerunner information if they were already at the planet why would they leave without that vital piece of information?

They return on the 30th of August, like in the book, though I do recall now that it was also to help in the battle and Chief thought they could just capture a Covenant ship there.

As for them not leaving earlier, it takes a while to gather the proper supplies for such a mission, especially if there is an invasion going on. It wasn't returning in the book because they needed Spartans at the generators, Keyes wanted to go back to help in the battle, and Chief went along with it because they could easily capture a ship there.

And Keyes wasn't planning to go down to the surface of the planet, that is another thing in the list of life's unexpected curve balls thrown at them during the attack on Reach. And he wasn't planning to go get the Cortana fragment either, I would assume that Halsey was the only one who knew about it.

Argument 1:
Posted by: Spartan1065
Posted by: hal0 slay3r661

Posted by: Spartan1065
Posted by: hal0 slay3r661
the spartans II's did share quite a bit with halsey, with her being their mother figure and such, jorge clearly knows about spartan III's and at least one of their missions (pegasi) its very possible he may have confided in her about it and she used her 200 IQ for some research.
Just the fact that Jorge is working with Spartan III's at all is a canon bomb. But if we let that slide then still the idea that she knew about the S III's before leaving Reach at the very least is laughable. how is that... she hinted through out the books that she knew something was happening, the spartans also knew chief mendez was going to train another batch of spartans AND in GoO when she first made contact with the sIII's it had only confirmed what she already assumed, its not so far fetched and with a bit of imagination its possible.
She learned everything you just mentioned after Reach was being glassed except for the small portion where the Castle Oni base was. She learned these things by accident while attending to the wounds of one of her spartan II's. While in Kelly's medical files Kalmiya pointed out that Ackerson had been looking through her Spartan II's medical files. This prompted her to look through his files. Finding all that you just mentioned. But she wasn't able to read them at the time because Castle came under attack and they were forced to retreat into the ruins.

This all occurred AFTER the majority of Reach had been glassed thus AFTER the events of Halo Reach.

Argument 2:

Posted by: Spartan1065
Halsey knows every Spartan II that is left alive intimately. She was able to tell them apart by the way they moved even while in their armor so I think that she would know that she didn't create most of Noble Team, excluding Jorge of course.
So the idea of her just not knowing that they aren't her Spartans is out.


I don't expect you to change your position as people who are much more in the know about canon than I am have been trying to convince you but I just got tired of you spewing nonsense all over the forum.


In response to Argument 1:
How exactly is Jorge working in a group of IIIs wreck canon? I want to explore your reasoning here so I may form my arguments more strongly.

Halsey's Journal mentions that Halsey and Kalmiya had been finding numerous ONI documents and encrypted files that seemed to indicate another Spartan program, and her meeting with Noble confirmed her suspicions, and then she finds out the specifics about in FS while rooting through Ackerson's files.

In response to Argument 2:
I have never said she thought they were her Spartans. As I said earlier, the idea that she would think that is idiotic.

  • 12.14.2010 7:06 PM PDT

Don't worry, you're still your mom's favorite Bnet member.

Posted by: privet caboose
I have no idea what possessed Bungie to remove Scarabs as an enemy in Reach. It was just stupid. The covenant are invading and we, a team of spartans, don't fight a single one the entire campaign? We see 10+ Scarabs throughout the game, but I guess we weren't good enough to kill one.

I mean hell, Carter didn't need to kill himself. Emile or Six could've easily taken one down. Chief kills five scarabs in the last few months of the war, Fred and the rest of Blue team kill atleast one more while on Cuba, and even a team of ODST's kill one.

And yet Bungie wasted a spartan life for something a couple ODST's could kill. =/
If they made it a Super Scarab like in Halo 2, then it would have made sense for Carter to sacrifice himself. That would be much harder to take down.

  • 12.14.2010 7:14 PM PDT