Bungie Universe
This topic has moved here: Subject: Why did Bungie not follow the cannon
  • Subject: Why did Bungie not follow the cannon
Subject: Why did Bungie not follow the cannon

Never on a monday!

To me I can think of a number of ways a story could have been written to fit in with the books and so on.

Also Bungie at Comicon were patting themselves on the back for their ability to keep a solid cannon, which at this point they had created the game and knew it would destory reach and following books.

It's mental.

  • 11.16.2010 4:31 AM PDT

Bungie Pentathlon - who actually cares ?

It appears their "cannon" did indeed blow apart the storyline.

Great play on words OP...or was it......

(*tweaks fake moustache whilst pondering)

  • 11.16.2010 4:55 AM PDT

Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien.
Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar.
tenn' Ambar-metta!

I agree that Bungie can modify the canon if they want, but it is not fair that they introduce us an established canon and then modify it confusing us all and destroying what we already enjoyed.

It is very disappointing of Bungie to do something like this...

  • 11.16.2010 8:22 AM PDT

╔══╦══╦═══╦╗╔╗╔╦══╦══╦╗╔╗
║╔═╩╗╔╣═══║║║╚╝║╔╗║╔╗║╚╝║
║║╔╗║║║╔╗╔╣║╚╗╔╣╠╣╣║║╠╗╔╝
║╚╝╠╝╚╣║║║║╚═╣║║╚╝║╚╝║║║
╚══╩══╩╝╚╝╚══╩╝╚══╩══╝╚╝

At this point, I say decide for yourself what is canon and what is not, because the are plenty of contradictions all throughout the universe to argue just about anything you want.

I prefer the story of the original six books, so that is canon to me. It's not like anyone official is telling us exactly what canon is.

Bungie changed the story because they wanted to. They have never been shy about the fact that whatever they put into the games will always override everything else, and that they don't really care to stick strictly to what has already been established.

  • 11.16.2010 8:42 AM PDT

Posted by: Core matrix
Bungie at Comicon were patting themselves on the back for their ability to keep a solid cannon, which at this point they had created the game and knew it would destory reach and following books.

It's mental.
Not to mention the Legendary commentary, where someone asks "do these dates go along with the book" and someone else answers "yeah we did work to make sure they fit nicely".

  • 11.16.2010 8:53 AM PDT

I'm an Anarchist. I don't need a government to be a good person, but I'm glad it's here because some of you clearly do.

Because money is more important.

  • 11.16.2010 8:57 AM PDT

Math rules the world.

I do not see any contradictions and I also do not see anyone pointing one out. If you are going to say they broke the story give examples.

  • 11.16.2010 9:21 AM PDT

______SIP________

Did any one order the legdendary editon? The Mini book that came with it was some what helpfull in easing in the changes they made. But over all still confusing for me atleast.

  • 11.16.2010 9:21 AM PDT

Math rules the world.


Posted by: Im1DrunknMonkey
Did any one order the legdendary editon? The Mini book that came with it was some what helpfull in easing in the changes they made. But over all still confusing for me atleast.


I did and everything seems to fit together. Bungie filled in gaps in the story, they did not rewrite it.

  • 11.16.2010 9:23 AM PDT

╔══╦══╦═══╦╗╔╗╔╦══╦══╦╗╔╗
║╔═╩╗╔╣═══║║║╚╝║╔╗║╔╗║╚╝║
║║╔╗║║║╔╗╔╣║╚╗╔╣╠╣╣║║╠╗╔╝
║╚╝╠╝╚╣║║║║╚═╣║║╚╝║╚╝║║║
╚══╩══╩╝╚╝╚══╩╝╚══╩══╝╚╝

Posted by: JScientia13
I do not see any contradictions and I also do not see anyone pointing one out. If you are going to say they broke the story give examples.

Really? Did you read Fall of Reach? The Pillar of Autumn never touched down on Reach. The only Spartan-IIIs to survive from Beta Company were Tom and Lucy, while none survived from Alpha. I know the timeline of the Battle is way off, though I don't know the exact dates right now. There was no advanced incursion force, no hidden ground-side armies. The Covies just showed up all at once with 300+ ships. I could go on and on.

Yes, some things were introduced in Halsey's journal that try to explain some of this, but introducing loopholes doesn't change the fact that there was a problem in the first place.

[Edited on 11.16.2010 9:28 AM PST]

  • 11.16.2010 9:27 AM PDT

Per Audacia Ad Astra!


Posted by: Acres 057
Because money is more important.


Yeah unfortunately

  • 11.16.2010 9:54 AM PDT

On hiding dead bodies:
Posted by: Psuedo
Posted by: teh Chaz
Inside another dead body. It's the last place they'll look
A corpse within a corpse.
CORPSEPTION.
Win.

Posted by: JScientia13
I do not see any contradictions and I also do not see anyone pointing one out. If you are going to say they broke the story give examples.
-The existence of the Noble Team SPARTANS.
-The age of the Noble Team SPARTANS.
-Jorge being a member of Noble Team.
-Moving the dates of the battle back 5 weeks.
-Moving the date of the main Covenant fleet's arrival back 2 weeks.
-Implying that less than 300 UNSC ships could fight 750 Covenant ships for two solid weeks in orbit, and that the Covenant wouldn't already bother glassing.
-PoA touching down on Reach totally destroys First Strike's tale of Red Team's operation, and also means that Blue Team's cannot be undergone. Even from the start, that's 5 KIA and 1 WIA scratched off the bat, before Alpha(?) Red gets glassed at the Generators.
-This also means that Johnson and Jenkins remain on Orbital Dock Gamma and are never retrieved by the SPARTANS and/or PoA, and therefore a major character from the entire series, and key (ie: epically major) plot points of The Flood and First Strike are also removed.

There are others, but these are all that come to mind currently.

[Edited on 11.16.2010 10:05 AM PST]

  • 11.16.2010 10:03 AM PDT

Noble Team needs a solid and very important objective to keep players chugging through the game and to make their ultimate sacrifice worthwhile.

What would you suggest that they would have done instead?

  • 11.16.2010 10:20 AM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

Posted by: JDYeash937 MkII
Posted by: JScientia13
I do not see any contradictions and I also do not see anyone pointing one out. If you are going to say they broke the story give examples.
-The existence of the Noble Team SPARTANS.
-The age of the Noble Team SPARTANS.
-Jorge being a member of Noble Team.
-Moving the dates of the battle back 5 weeks.
-Moving the date of the main Covenant fleet's arrival back 2 weeks.
-Implying that less than 300 UNSC ships could fight 750 Covenant ships for two solid weeks in orbit, and that the Covenant wouldn't already bother glassing.
-PoA touching down on Reach totally destroys First Strike's tale of Red Team's operation, and also means that Blue Team's cannot be undergone. Even from the start, that's 5 KIA and 1 WIA scratched off the bat, before Alpha(?) Red gets glassed at the Generators.
-This also means that Johnson and Jenkins remain on Orbital Dock Gamma and are never retrieved by the SPARTANS and/or PoA, and therefore a major character from the entire series, and key (ie: epically major) plot points of The Flood and First Strike are also removed.

There are others, but these are all that come to mind currently.


None of those you listed made any sense in a way that it did actually break canon without a possible explanation for them.

  • 11.16.2010 10:20 AM PDT

On hiding dead bodies:
Posted by: Psuedo
Posted by: teh Chaz
Inside another dead body. It's the last place they'll look
A corpse within a corpse.
CORPSEPTION.
Win.

Posted by: manwith
Posted by: JDYeash937 MkII
Posted by: JScientia13
I do not see any contradictions and I also do not see anyone pointing one out. If you are going to say they broke the story give examples.
-The existence of the Noble Team SPARTANS.
-The age of the Noble Team SPARTANS.
-Jorge being a member of Noble Team.
-Moving the dates of the battle back 5 weeks.
-Moving the date of the main Covenant fleet's arrival back 2 weeks.
-Implying that less than 300 UNSC ships could fight 750 Covenant ships for two solid weeks in orbit, and that the Covenant wouldn't already bother glassing.
-PoA touching down on Reach totally destroys First Strike's tale of Red Team's operation, and also means that Blue Team's cannot be undergone. Even from the start, that's 5 KIA and 1 WIA scratched off the bat, before Alpha(?) Red gets glassed at the Generators.
-This also means that Johnson and Jenkins remain on Orbital Dock Gamma and are never retrieved by the SPARTANS and/or PoA, and therefore a major character from the entire series, and key (ie: epically major) plot points of The Flood and First Strike are also removed.

There are others, but these are all that come to mind currently.


None of those you listed made any sense in a way that it did actually break canon without a possible explanation for them.
But all of them break a previously given source of canon. Namely, TFOR, Ghosts of Onyx, First Strike and the Flood.

All of the points I have mentioned either contradict or outright shred a source given in one of those books.

  • 11.16.2010 10:23 AM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

Posted by: JDYeash937 MkII
Posted by: manwith
Posted by: JDYeash937 MkII
Posted by: JScientia13
I do not see any contradictions and I also do not see anyone pointing one out. If you are going to say they broke the story give examples.
-The existence of the Noble Team SPARTANS.
-The age of the Noble Team SPARTANS.
-Jorge being a member of Noble Team.
-Moving the dates of the battle back 5 weeks.
-Moving the date of the main Covenant fleet's arrival back 2 weeks.
-Implying that less than 300 UNSC ships could fight 750 Covenant ships for two solid weeks in orbit, and that the Covenant wouldn't already bother glassing.
-PoA touching down on Reach totally destroys First Strike's tale of Red Team's operation, and also means that Blue Team's cannot be undergone. Even from the start, that's 5 KIA and 1 WIA scratched off the bat, before Alpha(?) Red gets glassed at the Generators.
-This also means that Johnson and Jenkins remain on Orbital Dock Gamma and are never retrieved by the SPARTANS and/or PoA, and therefore a major character from the entire series, and key (ie: epically major) plot points of The Flood and First Strike are also removed.

There are others, but these are all that come to mind currently.


None of those you listed made any sense in a way that it did actually break canon without a possible explanation for them.
But all of them break a previously given source of canon. Namely, TFOR, Ghosts of Onyx, First Strike and the Flood.

All of the points I have mentioned either contradict or outright shred a source given in one of those books.


What do you mean ''broke''? The game only expands the Battle of Reach, and as far as I'm concerned every event/moment that happened in the novels, happened in the game as well.

Just because it didn't play out like the novels presented it, doesn't mean it at any way broke canon.

  • 11.16.2010 10:38 AM PDT

On hiding dead bodies:
Posted by: Psuedo
Posted by: teh Chaz
Inside another dead body. It's the last place they'll look
A corpse within a corpse.
CORPSEPTION.
Win.

Posted by: manwith
What do you mean ''broke''? The game only expands the Battle of Reach, and as far as I'm concerned every event/moment that happened in the novels, happened in the game as well.

Just because it didn't play out like the novels presented it, doesn't mean it at any way broke canon.
The PoA was stationed on Reach's surface on the 29th August, at 16:52 (somewhere in either 'Reach Did Not Break Canon' thread, or the 'Unexplainable Canon Errors thread). This means that it did not participate in the space battle, nor could it have deployed Red or Blue teams by Pelican in orbit over Reach on the 'morning' of the 30th. This means that the 4 KIA SPARTANS from Red Team's drop never die, and they never take wounded.
It also means that James and Linda do not die, and 117 never meets up with Johnson and Jenkins. This means that two major plot points of the Flood, and no fewer than 3 major plot points of First Strike, are totally changed, as well as a major character of the entire original trilogy is totally forgotten. Considering each book only had 5-10 real plot points, this is a major cluster-blam.

And that's just discussing the PoA.

[Edited on 11.16.2010 10:45 AM PST]

  • 11.16.2010 10:44 AM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

Posted by: JDYeash937 MkII
Posted by: manwith
What do you mean ''broke''? The game only expands the Battle of Reach, and as far as I'm concerned every event/moment that happened in the novels, happened in the game as well.

Just because it didn't play out like the novels presented it, doesn't mean it at any way broke canon.
The PoA was stationed on Reach's surface on the 29th August, at 16:52 (somewhere in either 'Reach Did Not Break Canon' thread, or the 'Unexplainable Canon Errors thread). This means that it did not participate in the space battle, nor could it have deployed Red or Blue teams by Pelican in orbit over Reach on the 'morning' of the 30th. This means that the 4 KIA SPARTANS from Red Team's drop never die, and they never take wounded.
It also means that James and Linda do not die, and 117 never meets up with Johnson and Jenkins. This means that two major plot points of the Flood, and no fewer than 3 major plot points of First Strike, are totally changed, as well as a major character of the entire original trilogy is totally forgotten. Considering each book only had 5-10 real plot points, this is a major cluster-blam.

And that's just discussing the PoA.


The space battle was going on around 5-7 am of August 30th. I'm sure by then the PoA could have been in space.

Red Team was dispatched from the PoA around 6 am and heading towards Reach's surface while taking casualties, and the last level of Halo: Reach takes place on 5pm, which like 10 hours or more later. Lot's of time there.

  • 11.16.2010 10:52 AM PDT

╔══╦══╦═══╦╗╔╗╔╦══╦══╦╗╔╗
║╔═╩╗╔╣═══║║║╚╝║╔╗║╔╗║╚╝║
║║╔╗║║║╔╗╔╣║╚╗╔╣╠╣╣║║╠╗╔╝
║╚╝╠╝╚╣║║║║╚═╣║║╚╝║╚╝║║║
╚══╩══╩╝╚╝╚══╩╝╚══╩══╝╚╝

Posted by: manwith
What do you mean ''broke''? The game only expands the Battle of Reach, and as far as I'm concerned every event/moment that happened in the novels, happened in the game as well.
Nope. I didn't see Red Team in the game. Sure they are mentioned on a few radios, but that's like saying that one character talking about the Flood means that the Flood is in the game. I also didn't see John, James, and Linda on the Circumference.

Going back and saying, "Oh yeah, by the way, all of this other stuff happened, and some of it a little differently than we led you to believe. We just never told you about it," in relation to an already previously covered event is breaking canon in my book.

Posted by: manwith
Just because it didn't play out like the novels presented it, doesn't mean it at any way broke canon.
Um...yeah it does. I tell one story, then tell the story differently, I've changed it. That is breaking canon.

[Edited on 11.16.2010 10:55 AM PST]

  • 11.16.2010 10:53 AM PDT

On hiding dead bodies:
Posted by: Psuedo
Posted by: teh Chaz
Inside another dead body. It's the last place they'll look
A corpse within a corpse.
CORPSEPTION.
Win.

Posted by: manwith
Posted by: JDYeash937 MkII
Posted by: manwith
What do you mean ''broke''? The game only expands the Battle of Reach, and as far as I'm concerned every event/moment that happened in the novels, happened in the game as well.

Just because it didn't play out like the novels presented it, doesn't mean it at any way broke canon.
The PoA was stationed on Reach's surface on the 29th August, at 16:52 (somewhere in either 'Reach Did Not Break Canon' thread, or the 'Unexplainable Canon Errors thread). This means that it did not participate in the space battle, nor could it have deployed Red or Blue teams by Pelican in orbit over Reach on the 'morning' of the 30th. This means that the 4 KIA SPARTANS from Red Team's drop never die, and they never take wounded.
It also means that James and Linda do not die, and 117 never meets up with Johnson and Jenkins. This means that two major plot points of the Flood, and no fewer than 3 major plot points of First Strike, are totally changed, as well as a major character of the entire original trilogy is totally forgotten. Considering each book only had 5-10 real plot points, this is a major cluster-blam.

And that's just discussing the PoA.


The space battle was going on around 5-7 am of August 30th. I'm sure by then the PoA could have been in space.

Red Team was dispatched from the PoA around 6 am and heading towards Reach's surface while taking casualties, and the last level of Halo: Reach takes place on 5pm, which like 10 hours or more later. Lot's of time there.

You are forgetting that SPARTANS are in cryo aboard PoA for no obvious or explicable reason. They are going to fight, why have them in cryo, whilst on the ground, where they can be of no use whatsoever to the war effort? PoA clearly jumped as soon as Cortana's fragment was aboard, which implies that they never even fought in orbit.

  • 11.16.2010 11:03 AM PDT

Johnson and Jenkins could very well have already been on the PoA. It makes more sense than a newcomer suddenly becoming a squad leader.

  • 11.16.2010 11:15 AM PDT

╔══╦══╦═══╦╗╔╗╔╦══╦══╦╗╔╗
║╔═╩╗╔╣═══║║║╚╝║╔╗║╔╗║╚╝║
║║╔╗║║║╔╗╔╣║╚╗╔╣╠╣╣║║╠╗╔╝
║╚╝╠╝╚╣║║║║╚═╣║║╚╝║╚╝║║║
╚══╩══╩╝╚╝╚══╩╝╚══╩══╝╚╝

Posted by: JDYeash937 MkII
You are forgetting that SPARTANS are in cryo aboard PoA for no obvious or explicable reason. They are going to fight, why have them in cryo, whilst on the ground, where they can be of no use whatsoever to the war effort? PoA clearly jumped as soon as Cortana's fragment was aboard, which implies that they never even fought in orbit.
Yes. Unless I am mistaken, PoA was actually already on it's way to Covenant space when the Battle started. They hightailed it back, deployed Red and Blue teams, then escaped as soon as John was back on board. The Spartans would not have gone into cryo until they were well into their journey.

  • 11.16.2010 11:15 AM PDT

I don't care. I really don't.


Posted by: JDYeash937 MkII
-The existence of the Noble Team SPARTANS.
-The age of the Noble Team SPARTANS.
-Jorge being a member of Noble Team.
-Moving the dates of the battle back 5 weeks.
-Moving the date of the main Covenant fleet's arrival back 2 weeks.
-Implying that less than 300 UNSC ships could fight 750 Covenant ships for two solid weeks in orbit, and that the Covenant wouldn't already bother glassing.
-PoA touching down on Reach totally destroys First Strike's tale of Red Team's operation, and also means that Blue Team's cannot be undergone. Even from the start, that's 5 KIA and 1 WIA scratched off the bat, before Alpha(?) Red gets glassed at the Generators.
-This also means that Johnson and Jenkins remain on Orbital Dock Gamma and are never retrieved by the SPARTANS and/or PoA, and therefore a major character from the entire series, and key (ie: epically major) plot points of The Flood and First Strike are also removed.

There are others, but these are all that come to mind currently.


Why do people say it's broken? Because most people didn't bother to do research and one guy made a quite convincing thread because he wanted it to be broken? Come on.

-They were pulled out right after training.
-SIIIs were new and the success rates were better, so having them older makes more sense than the SIIs.
-Jorge could've been considered MIA. In fact, it's possible he was one of the few Spartans whom are hinted to have been "resurected" in Halsey's Journal, or the others could know he's alive, just not what he's part of. Also, when Halsey says all Spartans are present, she didn't have to mean they were in the room, so Jorge could be part of that grouping.
-ONI, knowing the importance of Reach, could have been keeping secret. It also could've been a force like Earth's first; didn't know where they were or that humans would be there, just that the Forerunners had structures on the surface.
-It probably wasn't the whole fleet, just a smaller advance fleet to locate the relics and retrieve them so the Covenant the major fleet could start glassing as soon as they arrived.
-Again, it wasn't the whole fleet, which didn't arrive until August 30th. If you're going on Urban's quote "It's the whole damn Covennant Fleet!" he hasn't seen the whole fleet, so was just assuming as Covenant ships hadn't been seen above 3 or so rather than the ten-fifteen or so. Also, they don't glass just in case they get the relics, only starting when they've retrieved them.
-The PoA touched down after deploying Red Team and collecting Blue Team. It was nearly midnight at the beggining of the Package, and early/mid morning by the time the level ended and Dot said it was waiting, and the PoA started to accelerate outsystem (presumambly before Halsey called it back) at about 0615 hours.

The canon isn't broken if you look at it properly. Believe me, I wanted it to be broken until I looked, at which point I was dissapointed and, even more so, relieved that it wasn't just intact, but expanded.

  • 11.16.2010 11:42 AM PDT

╔══╦══╦═══╦╗╔╗╔╦══╦══╦╗╔╗
║╔═╩╗╔╣═══║║║╚╝║╔╗║╔╗║╚╝║
║║╔╗║║║╔╗╔╣║╚╗╔╣╠╣╣║║╠╗╔╝
║╚╝╠╝╚╣║║║║╚═╣║║╚╝║╚╝║║║
╚══╩══╩╝╚╝╚══╩╝╚══╩══╝╚╝

Posted by: Venator82
All of the fixes you came up with are facts that were introduced specifically for Halo: Reach.

Which means that they had to come up with that stuff to try to make their story work.

That may not be "broken" in the minds of some. Of course, by extension of that logic nothing could ever be broken.

But it is undeniable that things were changed.

  • 11.16.2010 11:51 AM PDT
  • gamertag: Bobvob
  • user homepage:

Pacing, mostly.

In order to get a proper book end whilst following the canon, Noble Team would have to deliver the Package to the PoA by level three early on August 30th. The next six levels would be spent just dying with no plot to speak of.


Also, FoR canon was not meant to be a game. Reach was constructed as a device for the sole purpose of dying horribly to usher our Protagonist on to a certain video game in what was, at the time, a limited, one-shot game universe.

  • 11.16.2010 11:53 AM PDT