Bungie Universe
This topic has moved here: Subject: Why did Bungie not follow the cannon
  • Subject: Why did Bungie not follow the cannon
Subject: Why did Bungie not follow the cannon
  • gamertag: Bobvob
  • user homepage:


Posted by: A Puzzled Mind
Enlighten you?

That would be a waste of my time, trying to argue with someone as slow as you are.

Instead, you should read the 30 page thread on why Halo broke canon, but you're too much of a Bungie fanboy who clearly can't admit the fact that the Halo:Reach totally f-ed the previous timeline.


It broke canon, then forged the timeline anew.

Y'know, like Lelouch Lamperouge and the geopolitical world.

  • 11.21.2010 6:15 PM PDT

What a waste....

Some things were broken, some were not.

As for the age of Carter, he's 11. 7 years older (coincidence?) than the youngest three, also past Halsey's supposed 'indoctrination' age.

PoA: Should not have been surprised when 300 ships showed up at Reach, considering it was overlooking a huge battle going on. Also, in the Flood, Keyes is worried about the Autumn not being designed for atmospheric flight, and being only constructed and operated in space.

Dates: The expeditionary force would have been less destructive if they had changed the new edition of Reach so everyone is evacuated the second the Covies show up. It just would have made sense.

2. The battle shouldn't have lasted as long as it did. With 750 ships hanging around, you'd think 150 ships would be scrap in about five seconds.

  • 11.21.2010 6:33 PM PDT


Posted by: FleetAdmiralBob

Posted by: A Puzzled Mind
Enlighten you?

That would be a waste of my time, trying to argue with someone as slow as you are.

Instead, you should read the 30 page thread on why Halo broke canon, but you're too much of a Bungie fanboy who clearly can't admit the fact that the Halo:Reach totally f-ed the previous timeline.


It broke canon, then forged the timeline anew.

Y'know, like Lelouch Lamperouge and the geopolitical world.


...cough, terrible analogy.

But you know what, the new timeline is sooOOOO canon that the newest edition of The Fall of Reach has dozens of pages that never happened.

But of course, games > novels, just like good old Star Wars. We just love and love retcons and plotholes.

[Edited on 11.21.2010 6:42 PM PST]

  • 11.21.2010 6:33 PM PDT
  • gamertag: Bobvob
  • user homepage:


Posted by: A Puzzled Mind

Posted by: FleetAdmiralBob

Posted by: A Puzzled Mind
Enlighten you?

That would be a waste of my time, trying to argue with someone as slow as you are.

Instead, you should read the 30 page thread on why Halo broke canon, but you're too much of a Bungie fanboy who clearly can't admit the fact that the Halo:Reach totally f-ed the previous timeline.


It broke canon, then forged the timeline anew.

Y'know, like Lelouch Lamperouge and the geopolitical world.


...cough, terrible analogy.

But you know what, the new timeline sooOOOO canon that the newest edition of The Fall of Reach has dozens of pages that never happened.

But of course, games > novels, just like good old Star Wars. We just love and love retcons and plotholes.


I thought we'd all agreed that the new FoR was lacking before we'd even gotten the first Reach spoiler? There was obviously a breakdown in communication at some point.

Look at it this way: if you make Reach canon, then you can still squeeze all the important parts of FoR's Battle of Reach into the gaps.

If you give FoR priority, then nothing in Reach can possibly happen. An entire segment of the unvierse gets expunged. All that nice "pass the sword" symbolism? The coolest new S-II since Kurt? Halsey's ending monologue and the recolonization of Reach. Yeah, noncanon!

More is preserved by giving Halo: Reach priority. More content makes for a richer universe.

  • 11.21.2010 6:42 PM PDT


Posted by: FleetAdmiralBob

Posted by: A Puzzled Mind

Posted by: FleetAdmiralBob

Posted by: A Puzzled Mind
Enlighten you?

That would be a waste of my time, trying to argue with someone as slow as you are.

Instead, you should read the 30 page thread on why Halo broke canon, but you're too much of a Bungie fanboy who clearly can't admit the fact that the Halo:Reach totally f-ed the previous timeline.


It broke canon, then forged the timeline anew.

Y'know, like Lelouch Lamperouge and the geopolitical world.


...cough, terrible analogy.

But you know what, the new timeline sooOOOO canon that the newest edition of The Fall of Reach has dozens of pages that never happened.

But of course, games > novels, just like good old Star Wars. We just love and love retcons and plotholes.


I thought we'd all agreed that the new FoR was lacking before we'd even gotten the first Reach spoiler? There was obviously a breakdown in communication at some point.

Look at it this way: if you make Reach canon, then you can still squeeze all the important parts of FoR's Battle of Reach into the gaps.

If you give FoR priority, then nothing in Reach can possibly happen. An entire segment of the unvierse gets expunged. All that nice "pass the sword" symbolism? The coolest new S-II since Kurt? Halsey's ending monologue and the recolonization of Reach. Yeah, noncanon!

More is preserved by giving Halo: Reach priority. More content makes for a richer universe.



It's not my decision to decide what's canon. It's 343's job to do that, but what they decide may or may not kill the Halo franchise.

If they stick to the game's timeline...I'll just weep at the fact the games plot and character is so inconsistent, incompetent and underwhelming.

Then, I might just boycott Halo altogether unless that Forerunner novel is actually good.

  • 11.21.2010 6:47 PM PDT
  • gamertag: Bobvob
  • user homepage:

There are times to go abandon ship on a franchise. Reach... that's your dropping off point? It has problems, of course, but so did the last 3 games.

Oh, the Halo fanbase is so coddled and sheltered from the storm that is franchise continuity problems. You just don't know how good you have it. Any further conversation in this vein will cause me to enter shonen villain mode. The DOOMsayers won't like me when I'm a shonen villain.

[Edited on 11.21.2010 7:04 PM PST]

  • 11.21.2010 7:03 PM PDT


Posted by: A Puzzled Mind
Enlighten you?

That would be a waste of my time, trying to argue with someone as slow as you are.

Instead, you should read the 30 page thread on why Halo broke canon, but you're too much of a Bungie fanboy who clearly can't admit the fact that the Halo:Reach totally f-ed the previous timeline.
really unless you enlighten me on what it breaks. i wont know know how to counter it, after reareading halseys journal again i missed things i didnt see the first time such as, the army believeing they had the covenant in the viery sector contained, well they were untill the massive fleet of 700 ships killed reach,
but i will ask again enlighten me to whats broken? if you dont your well your just being pathetic.

  • 11.21.2010 7:21 PM PDT

Uh yeah, last 3 games didn't contradict an entire novel, especially the one that started it all.

GO ahead,be a shonen villain. It's a damn forum.

  • 11.21.2010 9:07 PM PDT

The only issue that still bugs me is the PoA being on planet Reach thing...if there was just some little note in something about the timing..I would really like some clarification as to when the PoA landed or whatever Bungie's explanation is.

  • 11.21.2010 10:58 PM PDT


Posted by: Darknight34
The only issue that still bugs me is the PoA being on planet Reach thing...if there was just some little note in something about the timing..I would really like some clarification as to when the PoA landed or whatever Bungie's explanation is.


It landed after picking up Chief and the survivors of the Circumference mission, which was about 0616 on the 30th, and then it came down to Reach's surface to pick up the Cortana fragment, and then 6 delivered it some time after 16:52, which would be 4:16 in the afternoon. So the Autumn on Reach is after picking up the Chief.

  • 11.22.2010 12:07 PM PDT

On Waypoint I'm rocketFox;
http://halo.xbox.com/forums/members/rocketfox/default.aspx

Old GTs; RebelRobot, Flamedude

The PoA part still bothers me, it just doesn't make sense. Why would a Halcyon Cruiser land, to get fitted with tugs, where it cant defend itself to pick up Cortana? Just send down a bunch of Pelicans and Longswords and let the PoA support the pickup as an actual warship, and not just a useless lump in the drydock. Why land the ship?

Sense, this makes none.

[Edited on 11.22.2010 1:30 PM PST]

  • 11.22.2010 1:30 PM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

Posted by: flamedude
The PoA part still bothers me, it just doesn't make sense. Why would a Halcyon Cruiser land, to get fitted with tugs, where it cant defend itself to pick up Cortana? Just send down a bunch of Pelicans and Longswords and let the PoA support the pickup as an actual warship, and not just a useless lump in the drydock. Why land the ship?

Sense, this makes none.


Imagine if the one that carried a fragment of Cortana to the PoA got shot down during transport. No, you won't take that risk, you will land the whole ship, because that's how important it is.

  • 11.22.2010 1:43 PM PDT
  • gamertag: Bobvob
  • user homepage:


Posted by: A Puzzled Mind
Uh yeah, last 3 games didn't contradict an entire novel, especially the one that started it all.

GO ahead,be a shonen villain. It's a damn forum.


The first two games didn't mention the books at all. Once.

The third mentioned a few quotes from the first half of FoR, which is still as canon as anything else.

A moot point, as none of those ever took place in the middle of a book, save for CE, but The Flood is broad strokes by its very nature.

  • 11.22.2010 1:56 PM PDT

On Waypoint I'm rocketFox;
http://halo.xbox.com/forums/members/rocketfox/default.aspx

Old GTs; RebelRobot, Flamedude

Posted by: manwith
Posted by: flamedude
The PoA part still bothers me, it just doesn't make sense. Why would a Halcyon Cruiser land, to get fitted with tugs, where it cant defend itself to pick up Cortana? Just send down a bunch of Pelicans and Longswords and let the PoA support the pickup as an actual warship, and not just a useless lump in the drydock. Why land the ship?

Sense, this makes none.


Imagine if the one that carried a fragment of Cortana to the PoA got shot down during transport. No, you won't take that risk, you will land the whole ship, because that's how important it is.


I understand that its dramatic but it still makes no sense. The main Cortana was on PoA, landing the ship placed her in danger. If the PoA was still in orbit it could at least fight or even flee, rather than just being that sitting duck at the shipping yard.

The chances of Noble making it would be much better if the PoA was giving support as a functioning warship, knocking down dropships, bombarding Covenant forces, sending backup etc.

  • 11.22.2010 2:30 PM PDT

It's not your fault

My argument in as few words as possible.

Bungie's series. Books are extended universe. What does this mean? Games are canon. Books are elaborate fan fiction.

  • 11.22.2010 2:52 PM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

Posted by: flamedude
Posted by: manwith
Posted by: flamedude
The PoA part still bothers me, it just doesn't make sense. Why would a Halcyon Cruiser land, to get fitted with tugs, where it cant defend itself to pick up Cortana? Just send down a bunch of Pelicans and Longswords and let the PoA support the pickup as an actual warship, and not just a useless lump in the drydock. Why land the ship?

Sense, this makes none.


Imagine if the one that carried a fragment of Cortana to the PoA got shot down during transport. No, you won't take that risk, you will land the whole ship, because that's how important it is.


I understand that its dramatic but it still makes no sense. The main Cortana was on PoA, landing the ship placed her in danger. If the PoA was still in orbit it could at least fight or even flee, rather than just being that sitting duck at the shipping yard.

The chances of Noble making it would be much better if the PoA was giving support as a functioning warship, knocking down dropships, bombarding Covenant forces, sending backup etc.



Yes, I agree with you on that, but let's not forget that if Noble Team had made it to the PoA, the games and the novels would have to be rewritten or stuff like that. So I guess Bungie was kind of forced to make them die the way they did, so people wouldn't complain about the story being ruined with Spartan-IIIs being aboard the PoA.

Sometimes I feel like it would have been better if Reach was never made, although I personally liked it very much, but it was kind of dull to know already that no matter what you're going to do on the planet until last level, it wouldn't matter at one bit.

  • 11.22.2010 2:55 PM PDT
  • gamertag: Bobvob
  • user homepage:


Posted by: SenorChupacabra
My argument in as few words as possible.

Bungie's series. Books are extended universe. What does this mean? Games are canon. Books are elaborate fan fiction.


Fan fiction that has a bearing on the games is called simply "fiction" - thank you very much.

Again, use Bungie's official canonity rules.

  • 11.22.2010 3:08 PM PDT

Signatures are for squares.

Posted by: SenorChupacabra
My argument in as few words as possible.

Bungie's series. Books are extended universe. What does this mean? Games are canon. Books are elaborate fan fiction.


You must be a Bungie employee! This seems to be how they think now, even though they constantly praise themselves on how well their canon fits together.

  • 11.22.2010 3:29 PM PDT

On Waypoint I'm rocketFox;
http://halo.xbox.com/forums/members/rocketfox/default.aspx

Old GTs; RebelRobot, Flamedude

Posted by: manwith
Sometimes I feel like it would have been better if Reach was never made, although I personally liked it very much, but it was kind of dull to know already that no matter what you're going to do on the planet until last level, it wouldn't matter at one bit.

I feel the same way, I liked the game a lot too but I find that the storyline does not hold well under scrutiny. There are too many "Huh?" moments. I can't help but feel that there could have been a much better storyline for a game set during the Battle of Reach that was at least as exciting but more importantly made sense (in terms of canon and logic) and just felt right.

  • 11.22.2010 3:29 PM PDT


Posted by: FleetAdmiralBob

Posted by: A Puzzled Mind
Uh yeah, last 3 games didn't contradict an entire novel, especially the one that started it all.

GO ahead,be a shonen villain. It's a damn forum.


The first two games didn't mention the books at all. Once.

The third mentioned a few quotes from the first half of FoR, which is still as canon as anything else.

A moot point, as none of those ever took place in the middle of a book, save for CE, but The Flood is broad strokes by its very nature.
they kind of do, such as halo 2 to understand the start you need to read first strike, with chief in orbit round earth, and johnson surviving, and in halo 3 the marines in the second cutscene say "OMG it's a spartan" not chief but a spartan meaining there were others the marines new about.

[Edited on 11.22.2010 4:03 PM PST]

  • 11.22.2010 4:03 PM PDT

Undead Froggy

Posted by: JDYeash937 MkII
Posted by: Venator82
Another thing, what was that about the Spartan IIs in cryo? I am actually in the dark about that one.
The easter egg at the end, where if you panned the camera to the right as the Pelican entered PoA's hangar bay, you would see a SPARTAN-II in MkV MJOLNIR in a cryotube.

Only one was there mind, but this means that they should ALL be in cryo.

To FleetAdmiralBob?
If there is a SPARTAN in cryo, then that is irrefutable evidence (whether an Easter Egg or not) that they SPARTANS were not deployed on missions between PoA leaving the surface of Reach and Alpha Halo.
Saying otherwise makes the Easter Egg so ludicrously pointless that I can't even think about how to talk about it.
they put the chief in a cryo tube for an easter egg for the fans of halo ce cuz u start the game in that cryo tube....duh-er lol and for me bungie is canon not some random author riding bungies success

  • 11.27.2010 5:09 PM PDT

Undead Froggy


Posted by: privet caboose
Posted by: SenorChupacabra
My argument in as few words as possible.

Bungie's series. Books are extended universe. What does this mean? Games are canon. Books are elaborate fan fiction.


You must be a Bungie employee! This seems to be how they think now, even though they constantly praise themselves on how well their canon fits together.
its bungies canon they can do as they please

  • 11.27.2010 5:12 PM PDT


Posted by: Spartan999
Posted by: JScientia13
I do not see any contradictions and I also do not see anyone pointing one out. If you are going to say they broke the story give examples.

Really? Did you read Fall of Reach? The Pillar of Autumn never touched down on Reach. The only Spartan-IIIs to survive from Beta Company were Tom and Lucy, while none survived from Alpha. I know the timeline of the Battle is way off, though I don't know the exact dates right now. There was no advanced incursion force, no hidden ground-side armies. The Covies just showed up all at once with 300+ ships. I could go on and on.

Yes, some things were introduced in Halsey's journal that try to explain some of this, but introducing loopholes doesn't change the fact that there was a problem in the first place.
reach is better with everything it established, more secret spartan 3's ready to fight, the advance party goes to show whoever was covering up the viery battle really wanted to see this through, to which we dont no as of now

  • 11.27.2010 5:24 PM PDT


Posted by: TheFrog
Posted by: JDYeash937 MkII
Posted by: Venator82
Another thing, what was that about the Spartan IIs in cryo? I am actually in the dark about that one.
The easter egg at the end, where if you panned the camera to the right as the Pelican entered PoA's hangar bay, you would see a SPARTAN-II in MkV MJOLNIR in a cryotube.

Only one was there mind, but this means that they should ALL be in cryo.

To FleetAdmiralBob?
If there is a SPARTAN in cryo, then that is irrefutable evidence (whether an Easter Egg or not) that they SPARTANS were not deployed on missions between PoA leaving the surface of Reach and Alpha Halo.
Saying otherwise makes the Easter Egg so ludicrously pointless that I can't even think about how to talk about it.
they put the chief in a cryo tube for an easter egg for the fans of halo ce cuz u start the game in that cryo tube....duh-er lol and for me bungie is canon not some random author riding bungies success

And one of those "random authors" was Joseph Staten. A Bungie employee. Every Halo book was written in co-operation with Bungie, with the input and final approval of Bungie.

Books = Canon.

You don't know anything about Halo's canon, stop acting like you do.

[Edited on 11.27.2010 10:48 PM PST]

  • 11.27.2010 10:46 PM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

I heard someone say once (paraphrasing here) "Multiflag on Blood Gulch with your friends is what makes Halo, Halo." I GUARANTEE that more people agree with that sentiment than "Getting a 50 in MLG is what makes Halo, Halo." - Oboewan42
Meta | NHL | Kotor


Posted by: Core matrix
To me I can think of a number of ways a story could have been written to fit in with the books and so on.

Also Bungie at Comicon were patting themselves on the back for their ability to keep a solid cannon, which at this point they had created the game and knew it would destory reach and following books.

It's mental.


Following the books would create too many questions for those that only purchase the games.

Ultimately, canon is destroyed either way: Universe canon, which touches a smaller select group of individuals or game canon, which touches the masses that played the Halo games.

  • 11.27.2010 11:39 PM PDT