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Subject: What was UNSC Grafton and UNSC Saratoga doing?

Question~ During the Battle of Viery, Reach, The Frigate UNSC Grafton and UNSC Saratoga launch an attack along side longswrds and ground forces. However, only UNSC Grafton is attacking, and only using 2 of its 5 underside turrets and none of its Archer missiles. ??? And what was the Captain of the Saratoga doing at the time ????

Was both Captains drunk? Were there ammunition problems? Or perhaps the 50mm turrets aren't 50mm caliber weapons, instead being something much bigger than a Scorpion's main gun, considering the size of the turrets barrels.

In any other words, if I was one of the Captains, I would of did a thermal scan of the area, which would of discovered the Super Carrier above me, which then I would of surprised it with nukes to its underside, or had Orbital Command use SMAC's on it.

Discuss~


[Edited on 11.26.2010 8:22 PM PST]

  • 11.26.2010 8:22 PM PDT

ACTA NON VERBA

I'm sure you "would of did" that...You're right, what "was" they thinking

  • 11.26.2010 8:38 PM PDT

1. 50mm=\=.50cal, .50 cal=1/2inch, 50mm~2inches. The guns were 50mm.
2.There were jammers like the one on nightfall, they were completely dark as far as radar/thermal scans go.
3.They were light frigates so they probably only had 2 underside guns.
4.Archer missiles would be serious overkill.

  • 11.26.2010 8:54 PM PDT
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The Supercarrier didn't show up on thermal scans. And as for the nukes, as soon as you fired them, the supercarrier would have blasted the Grafton to bits anyway. Not to mention that the shield could easily take a nuke or two. Heck, it was so big that even SMACs were probably not powerful enough to take it out.

  • 11.26.2010 10:02 PM PDT

<3 Auntie Dot


Posted by: The Seraphim
Question~ During the Battle of Viery, Reach, The Frigate UNSC Grafton and UNSC Saratoga launch an attack along side longswrds and ground forces. However, only UNSC Grafton is attacking, and only using 2 of its 5 underside turrets and none of its Archer missiles. ??? And what was the Captain of the Saratoga doing at the time ????

Was both Captains drunk? Were there ammunition problems? Or perhaps the 50mm turrets aren't 50mm caliber weapons, instead being something much bigger than a Scorpion's main gun, considering the size of the turrets barrels.

In any other words, if I was one of the Captains, I would of did a thermal scan of the area, which would of discovered the Super Carrier above me, which then I would of surprised it with nukes to its underside, or had Orbital Command use SMAC's on it.

Discuss~


The Battle of Viery was mainly a ground operation, both the Grafton and the Saratoga where merely providing covering fire for the UNSC forces fighhing in the ground.

The night before the battle, Noble Recon Bravo found two or three Corvettes (cant remember atm), had the two frigates made a Direct Frontal Assault, they could have probably be obliterated by the Corvettes.

Also, its common knowledge that the UNSC tends not to use Nuclear Weaponry on their own colonies, they certainly wouldn´t fire Nukes on Reach, had they done so while in the battle they would´ve killed all Human combatants on ground, incluiding a group of Spartans.

In the end the Grafton fired a MAC round at the Spire, attracting the attention of the hidden Supercarrier, which in turn destroyed the Grafton. Had the Saratoga attacked the Supercarrier, the frigate would have certainly be destroyed in one hit.

  • 11.26.2010 10:10 PM PDT


Posted by: the n00b pwner
1. 50mm=\=.50cal, .50 cal=1/2inch, 50mm~2inches. The guns were 50mm.
2.There were jammers like the one on nightfall, they were completely dark as far as radar/thermal scans go.
3.They were light frigates so they probably only had 2 underside guns.
4.Archer missiles would be serious overkill.


The Grafton (The closer frigate that fires on the phantom after you blow up the first AA gun) was a heavy frigate. If I remember right, there were only two turrets on the front underside of each side of the frigates. A missile strike would have harmed as many friendlies as it would get kills though.

  • 11.26.2010 10:57 PM PDT

The 501st United. Look in my groups.

Dude...Archer Missiles...serious overkill...

  • 11.26.2010 11:22 PM PDT

On hiding dead bodies:
Posted by: Psuedo
Posted by: teh Chaz
Inside another dead body. It's the last place they'll look
A corpse within a corpse.
CORPSEPTION.
Win.

Posted by: the n00b pwner
1. 50mm=\=.50cal, .50 cal=1/2inch, 50mm~2inches. The guns were 50mm.
2.There were jammers like the one on nightfall, they were completely dark as far as radar/thermal scans go.
3.They were light frigates so they probably only had 2 underside guns.
4.Archer missiles would be serious overkill.
A MAC gun is probably 'serious overkill', its impact energy is roughly equivalent to that released by a 71 kiloton nuclear warhead. Archers would have been perfect weapons. Also, a Frigate only has 8 of the 50mm AA guns, in 4 dual-barrelled mountings.

Also, it's not possible to make thermal emissions completely 'dark'. Well, in a planet's atmosphere with the planet to cover its emissions, it might be possible.
However, in space, ship's engines can be seen from across solar systems. The docking thrusters on the Space Shuttle can be apparently seen from a distance equivalent to that between Earth and the Sun.Posted by: Sigma617
Disclaimer: Do NOT try and make any sense of Reach's campaign.
it's a charlie foxtrot of canon fail.
It's also a fail of common sense. Time and time again, sending in a squad of randomly-easily-killed SPARTANS is consistently preferred to just airstriking something.

[Edited on 11.27.2010 2:24 AM PST]

  • 11.27.2010 2:23 AM PDT

Am I supposed to write something funny here?


Posted by: JDYeash937 MkII
Time and time again, sending in a squad of randomly-easily-killed SPARTANS is consistently preferred to just airstriking something.

So, first you would airstrike VERY important comms relay.
Then you would airstrike AA gun and comms station you need operational. (While under fire from Covenant corvette)
Then you airstrike important ONI base you're supposed to defend.
Again that, you send your ships in without intel.
Then you try to airstrike anti-air guns and indestructible energy shield.
After that you destroy launch facility you need to destroy VERY big covie ship.
Then you airstrike civilians and SAM site you need to rescue them. (While under fire from three Covenant corvettes)
Well you could airstrike those buildings, but comms are being jammed and there's friendlies all over the place.
Then you airstrike the ONI base that is being evacuated.
Next you airstrike VERY important intel and your best scientist. (Which are underground)
Then you airstrike your only means of getting that intel anywhere.

Very smart.

  • 11.27.2010 8:22 AM PDT

LLLOOLOLOLOLLLLOOOLOLOOL!!!!!111!111ONE
-mastar ceef

Posted by: Gamer Whale

Posted by: JDYeash937 MkII
Time and time again, sending in a squad of randomly-easily-killed SPARTANS is consistently preferred to just airstriking something.

So, first you would airstrike VERY important comms relay.
Then you would airstrike AA gun and comms station you need operational. (While under fire from Covenant corvette)
Then you airstrike important ONI base you're supposed to defend.
Again that, you send your ships in without intel.
Then you try to airstrike anti-air guns and indestructible energy shield.
After that you destroy launch facility you need to destroy VERY big covie ship.
Then you airstrike civilians and SAM site you need to rescue them. (While under fire from three Covenant corvettes)
Well you could airstrike those buildings, but comms are being jammed and there's friendlies all over the place.
Then you airstrike the ONI base that is being evacuated.
Next you airstrike VERY important intel and your best scientist. (Which are underground)
Then you airstrike your only means of getting that intel anywhere.

Very smart.

Oh, wow! Owned!

  • 11.27.2010 9:13 AM PDT

On hiding dead bodies:
Posted by: Psuedo
Posted by: teh Chaz
Inside another dead body. It's the last place they'll look
A corpse within a corpse.
CORPSEPTION.
Win.

Posted by: Gamer Whale

Posted by: JDYeash937 MkII
Time and time again, sending in a squad of randomly-easily-killed SPARTANS is consistently preferred to just airstriking something.

So, first you would airstrike VERY important comms relay.
Then you would airstrike AA gun and comms station you need operational. (While under fire from Covenant corvette)
Then you airstrike important ONI base you're supposed to defend.
Again that, you send your ships in without intel.
Then you try to airstrike anti-air guns and indestructible energy shield.
After that you destroy launch facility you need to destroy VERY big covie ship.
Then you airstrike civilians and SAM site you need to rescue them. (While under fire from three Covenant corvettes)
Well you could airstrike those buildings, but comms are being jammed and there's friendlies all over the place.
Then you airstrike the ONI base that is being evacuated.
Next you airstrike VERY important intel and your best scientist. (Which are underground)
Then you airstrike your only means of getting that intel anywhere.

Very smart.
When I say 'airstrike', the image in your mind is clearly 'Operation: Rolling Thunder', or the bombing of Dresden. I'm not on about levelling the areas with bombs, I'm on about simple close air support.

-At the start of ONI SWORD base, you fly over the courtyard in a pair of Falcons, both of which are armed with cannons that are likely equipped with 20mm HEDP ammunition. Yet the pilots decide not to use these, and instead just drop off two SPARTANS. Who, for some bizarre reason, are killed incredibly easily.
-At the end of the level, a pair of 64m long starfighter single ships designed to harass enemy Capital ships with 120mm guns, 'heavy' missiles and a 110mm gatling gun have to have a single Phantom and a half-dozen Banshees shot down before they can chase away a Covenant Corvette, despite the fact that the Corvette would have been so much more dangerous, armed with its own AA system.
-In Tip Of The Spear, I have no idea why the Longsword bombers couldn't simply fly in behind the first AA gun, they would have been screaming low over a cliff that the gun could not have fired over.
-In Pillar of Autumn, neither Keyes' Pelican nor its escort Pelican stand by with their 70mm fully-automatic chin guns to stem an infantry assault, and also have to wait for said infantry assault to have been quelled before coming in, despite being clad in heavy armour and armed with said heavy chin gun.
-PoA also refuses to activate its AA system of 40 guns, each with a calibre of 50mm, to destroy the incoming Banshees and Phantoms, which would have allowed 6 to focus on the Covenant CCS Battlecruiser - if PoA had activated this crucial system (as without it, it was basically defenceless), then both Emile and 6 would have lived, at least much longer than they did.

Halo Reach is full of stupid things like that. It's Bungie trying to extend the campaign by making you do everything yourself, rather than be realistic. Same reason the AI is so pathetically inept.

[Edited on 11.27.2010 9:16 AM PST]

  • 11.27.2010 9:14 AM PDT

Am I supposed to write something funny here?


Posted by: JDYeash937 MkII
-At the start of ONI SWORD base, you fly over the courtyard in a pair of Falcons, both of which are armed with cannons that are likely equipped with 20mm HEDP ammunition. Yet the pilots decide not to use these, and instead just drop off two SPARTANS. Who, for some bizarre reason, are killed incredibly easily.
Yeah, falcons should have used cannons while flying by. But, they had to take rest of the NOBLE somewhere, so they couldn't stay. Also there could have been grunt with fuel rod gun.

-At the end of the level, a pair of 64m long starfighter single ships designed to harass enemy Capital ships with 120mm guns, 'heavy' missiles and a 110mm gatling gun have to have a single Phantom and a half-dozen Banshees shot down before they can chase away a Covenant Corvette, despite the fact that the Corvette would have been so much more dangerous, armed with its own AA system.
Yeah, that's weird. (But I make your post go away by noting that longswords aren't 64 meters long)

-In Tip Of The Spear, I have no idea why the Longsword bombers couldn't simply fly in behind the first AA gun, they would have been screaming low over a cliff that the gun could not have fired over.
Not sure what you mean, (sori, mai enklish is veri päd) But the AA gun was firing "high-velocity plasma shells", So they probably could have shot down longsword that was flying away from them, if you mean that.

-In Pillar of Autumn, neither Keyes' Pelican nor its escort Pelican stand by with their 70mm fully-automatic chin guns to stem an infantry assault, and also have to wait for said infantry assault to have been quelled before coming in, despite being clad in heavy armour and armed with said heavy chin gun.
Well they aren't indestructible (Remember what happened to the escort Pelican) and there could have been grunt with fuel rod gun. Also, they were carrying PoA's captain. (Who shouldn't have been there in the first place, I'll give you that)

-PoA also refuses to activate its AA system of 40 guns, each with a calibre of 50mm, to destroy the incoming Banshees and Phantoms, which would have allowed 6 to focus on the Covenant CCS Battlecruiser - if PoA had activated this crucial system (as without it, it was basically defenceless), then both Emile and 6 would have lived, at least much longer than they did.
Well, you can see PoA firing at the ground forces in the distance, and Emile was shooting stuff down. And later, you don't want to accidentally shhot down your captain and they guy who's trying to save you. (Some of the Phantoms are in between PoA and the Mass driver, so it's 50% gameplay and 50 % common sense)

Halo Reach is full of stupid things like that. It's Bungie trying to extend the campaign by making you do everything yourself, rather than be realistic. Same reason the AI is so pathetically inept.

  • 11.27.2010 10:14 AM PDT

Posted by: JDYeash937 MkII
Posted by: the n00b pwner
1. 50mm=\=.50cal, .50 cal=1/2inch, 50mm~2inches. The guns were 50mm.
2.There were jammers like the one on nightfall, they were completely dark as far as radar/thermal scans go.
3.They were light frigates so they probably only had 2 underside guns.
4.Archer missiles would be serious overkill.
A MAC gun is probably 'serious overkill', its impact energy is roughly equivalent to that released by a 71 kiloton nuclear warhead. Archers would have been perfect weapons. Also, a Frigate only has 8 of the 50mm AA guns, in 4 dual-barrelled mountings.

Also, it's not possible to make thermal emissions completely 'dark'. Well, in a planet's atmosphere with the planet to cover its emissions, it might be possible.
However, in space, ship's engines can be seen from across solar systems. The docking thrusters on the Space Shuttle can be apparently seen from a distance equivalent to that between Earth and the Sun.Posted by: Sigma617
Disclaimer: Do NOT try and make any sense of Reach's campaign.
it's a charlie foxtrot of canon fail.
It's also a fail of common sense. Time and time again, sending in a squad of randomly-easily-killed SPARTANS is consistently preferred to just airstriking something.


1. Of course the MAC was serious overkill, they wanted to "get their attention". Still, judging from the impact, the MAC was probably on a 'low power setting' or something along those lines.
2. Archer missiles would have been fine against the spire, but not infantry and vehicles.
3. If 21st century humanity can make something near invisible to radio waves, I think the covenant can do the same with infrared.

  • 11.27.2010 10:18 AM PDT

On hiding dead bodies:
Posted by: Psuedo
Posted by: teh Chaz
Inside another dead body. It's the last place they'll look
A corpse within a corpse.
CORPSEPTION.
Win.

Posted by: Gamer Whale
Posted by: JDYeash937 MkII
-At the start of ONI SWORD base, you fly over the courtyard in a pair of Falcons, both of which are armed with cannons that are likely equipped with 20mm HEDP ammunition. Yet the pilots decide not to use these, and instead just drop off two SPARTANS. Who, for some bizarre reason, are killed incredibly easily.

Yeah, falcons should have used cannons while flying by. But, they had to take rest of the NOBLE somewhere, so they couldn't stay. Also there could have been grunt with fuel rod gun.
Really? All it should have taken was 2 or 3 bursts each, then drop them off. 6 bursts of 20mm high explosives should have been more than enough to turn ALL the Covies in the courtyard into nothing more than purple-spattered mulch.
-At the end of the level, a pair of 64m long starfighter single ships designed to harass enemy Capital ships with 120mm guns, 'heavy' missiles and a 110mm gatling gun have to have a single Phantom and a half-dozen Banshees shot down before they can chase away a Covenant Corvette, despite the fact that the Corvette would have been so much more dangerous, armed with its own AA system.
Yeah, that's weird. (But I make your post go away by noting that longswords aren't 64 meters long)
lolno
They ARE 64m long.
-In Tip Of The Spear, I have no idea why the Longsword bombers couldn't simply fly in behind the first AA gun, they would have been screaming low over a cliff that the gun could not have fired over.
Not sure what you mean, (sori, mai enklish is veri päd) But the AA gun was firing "high-velocity plasma shells", So they probably could have shot down longsword that was flying away from them, if you mean that.
They fired very inaccurate 3-round bursts with a long and visible charge time between. A Longsword could have made evasive manoeuvres, even if flying straight down a 'Tyrant's' barrel. What I'm suggesting is they fly over the hills behind the gun - it won't see them coming, nor would it be able to hit them if it did see them.
-In Pillar of Autumn, neither Keyes' Pelican nor its escort Pelican stand by with their 70mm fully-automatic chin guns to stem an infantry assault, and also have to wait for said infantry assault to have been quelled before coming in, despite being clad in heavy armour and armed with said heavy chin gun.
Well they aren't indestructible (Remember what happened to the escort Pelican) and there could have been grunt with fuel rod gun. Also, they were carrying PoA's captain. (Who shouldn't have been there in the first place, I'll give you that)
Modern air support platforms (the Apache gunship, for one) is capable of standing off at around 2km in the air, and can still provide relatively accurate fire support with a 30mm gun. The Pelican is equipped with a 70mm gun, and could easily have stood off at 2km or much further, fully out of range of Covenant infantry fire.
-PoA also refuses to activate its AA system of 40 guns, each with a calibre of 50mm, to destroy the incoming Banshees and Phantoms, which would have allowed 6 to focus on the Covenant CCS Battlecruiser - if PoA had activated this crucial system (as without it, it was basically defenceless), then both Emile and 6 would have lived, at least much longer than they did.
Well, you can see PoA firing at the ground forces in the distance, and Emile was shooting stuff down. And later, you don't want to accidentally shhot down your captain and they guy who's trying to save you. (Some of the Phantoms are in between PoA and the Mass driver, so it's 50% gameplay and 50 % common sense)
At what point does PoA ever fire? Besides, the AA suite was being run by Cortana. She can quite easily identify between a Pelican and a Banshee or Phantom.Posted by: the n00b pwner
3. If 21st century humanity can make something near invisible to radio waves, I think the covenant can do the same with infrared.
You can make something as radar invisible as you like, thermal emissions cannot be hidden, unless you aren't moving and have your life support fully shut down.

[Edited on 11.27.2010 2:15 PM PST]

  • 11.27.2010 2:13 PM PDT

Posted by: JDYeash937 MkII
Posted by: the n00b pwner
3. If 21st century humanity can make something near invisible to radio waves, I think the covenant can do the same with infrared.
You can make something as radar invisible as you like, thermal emissions cannot be hidden, unless you aren't moving and have your life support fully shut down.


Actually it is already being done with metamaterials.

  • 11.27.2010 4:01 PM PDT

Rise from Ruin...

I love Bungie, the books, the games, and i think Reach is an awesome tittle, and fun ass game. But.....

Bungie did do a terrible job in respect to the use of UNSC resources and such, as well as the effectiveness of the SPARTANS. They also make some odd plot devieces that kinda urk me. Example...

Why did the Covie ship have to go on a refueling run with the super carrier? Its not running on "fuel" its not an -blam!- f16 fighter. Its running on something covie, and thus most likely borrowed, watered down forunner tech. It would have been running on a fuel cell or something even more efficent. Either way, i doubt it would have went on a refueling run at all.

  • 11.27.2010 4:30 PM PDT
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Ima Dinasaur!

The Grafton wouldn't have known about the Super-carrier until after the Spire was destroyed. The Spire was cloaking the Super-carrier. The Grafton didn't use it's 50 mm cannons or Archer missiles. It used a MAC round to obliterate the Spire. Get your facts straight.

  • 11.27.2010 4:46 PM PDT

Posted by: Davey Phoenix
I love Bungie, the books, the games, and i think Reach is an awesome tittle, and fun ass game. But.....

Bungie did do a terrible job in respect to the use of UNSC resources and such, as well as the effectiveness of the SPARTANS. They also make some odd plot devieces that kinda urk me. Example...

Why did the Covie ship have to go on a refueling run with the super carrier? Its not running on "fuel" its not an -blam!- f16 fighter. Its running on something covie, and thus most likely borrowed, watered down forunner tech. It would have been running on a fuel cell or something even more efficent. Either way, i doubt it would have went on a refueling run at all.


Covenant ships run on tritium gas, likely used for fusion. A corvette can only hold so much before needing to refuel.

  • 11.27.2010 5:39 PM PDT
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We are determined that before the sun sets on this terrible struggle our flag will be recognized throughout the world as a symbol of freedom on the one hand and of overwhelming force on the other.


Posted by: the n00b pwner
Posted by: Davey Phoenix
I love Bungie, the books, the games, and i think Reach is an awesome tittle, and fun ass game. But.....

Bungie did do a terrible job in respect to the use of UNSC resources and such, as well as the effectiveness of the SPARTANS. They also make some odd plot devieces that kinda urk me. Example...

Why did the Covie ship have to go on a refueling run with the super carrier? Its not running on "fuel" its not an -blam!- f16 fighter. Its running on something covie, and thus most likely borrowed, watered down forunner tech. It would have been running on a fuel cell or something even more efficent. Either way, i doubt it would have went on a refueling run at all.


Covenant ships run on tritium gas, likely used for fusion. A corvette can only hold so much before needing to refuel.


No, not all pf them, most run off of Repulsor Engines, which are fueled by negative matter.

  • 11.27.2010 5:51 PM PDT
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I just play for fun. MLG can kiss my ass.

I agree with you, but don't you think they would have noticed the GIANT PURPLE GLOW in the sky?

  • 11.27.2010 6:05 PM PDT
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I just play for fun. MLG can kiss my ass.

Dude, it made SOME sense. Spartans are the ULTIMATE soldiers. And most of them died because of A. sacrificing their lives for others, B. overwhelming Covenant firepower, or C. equipment failure. So don't go dissing the Spartans.

  • 11.27.2010 6:10 PM PDT

Rise from Ruin...

i wasnt dissing the spartans, i was saying they were not made out to be nearly as kick ass as they really are.

  • 11.27.2010 7:03 PM PDT

http://www.bungie.net/Forums/posts.aspx?postID=39477223


Posted by: JDYeash937 MkII

Several good points


Hm... Indeed...
The whole concept of how Covy are undetected on a planet like Reach is... Absurd, as well as how UNSC would be on high alert to defend Reach after that making it so the Reach fleet would be max sized, more SMACs etc... None of the canon wise surprise invasion.

Emile sucked as the operator, he missed so many damn times and would fire at nothing. -blam!-, let N6 handle that job and Halo CE would have 3 player co-op campaign that would make sense.

  • 11.27.2010 7:32 PM PDT

I find it strange that the Covenant did a rather poor effort to destroy the Sabre launch facility. Instead of just obliterating it with a minor glass beam or even a barrage of plasma artillery, they decided to drop some Elites down in some pods - and failed hard. Heck, even one of the Seraph fighters could've just kamikazed into one of the Sabres as none of the launch facilites where enclosed - the ceiling was not nonexistent.

I also find it peculiar that the Supercarrier didn't send some forces to the Ardent Prayer (the Corvette you hijack) when it was pretty clear it was being utterly overwhelmed by the UNSC infiltrators. If one of my satellite vessels was being infiltrated by a bunch of human super soldiers and marines, I would, as a shipmaster, atleast send some specialists over there to confirm if it was being indeed hijacked. Especially if I witnessed a Pelican boarding it without being attacked, a long time after the main battle ended, and the Savannah was destroyed.

I mean, didn't the crew have ANY form of communication with their flagship? The damn bridge was overriden and not a single Elite or Grunt was able to even ask for more reinforcements. Maybe the enemies that appear in the hangar before the levels ends actually were reinforcements from the Supercarrier. The last Elite to fall, couldn't he even roar into his mic or something to warn the carrier? I would've blasted my Corvette into particles if it even moved a metre closer to my Supercarrier after being hijacked, killing the Spartans inside it.
Have I missed something? Because I find this a case of hilariously grotesquely amateurish war strategy. You'd think the Shipmaster of one of the largest ships in the Covenant's naval would've have a little more common sense. If they managed to use their brains and do something about the boarding operation, they might have survived Operation Uppercut, and as a ludicrously gigantic ship I think it's survival of that operation would've make the outcome of The Fall of Reach completely different. Sure, it did fall anyways, but with the help from the Supercarrier there'd be like no human nor Spartan alive after the main invasion, like those at CASTLE Base, and with the loss of Noble 6 in the space battle, saving countless of Covenant forces. Including a very important team of Zealots and a Field Marshall, aswell as an unknown number of Generals and Chieftains.

  • 11.27.2010 8:24 PM PDT

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