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Subject: What did the Sangheili do after the dissolving of the Covenant end?

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: Sigma617
Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: spurkis
This debate seem to not going anywhere for me, it's pretty clear I should read one of the books before diving into such discussions - BUT, from what I've seen from the Halo games, I think the Elites are pretty outstanding in most aspects, if you look away from the brutality of some of them!

Like me, I used to be a fan of Elites, but then I read the novels, and I changed my mind.

;)


true... true...

although, which novel in particular changed your mind?

Not any particular novel, it was a gradual thing. Flying references in all of them. Probably Ghosts of Onyx, Cole Protocol and the Bloodlines comic did the most though. It all added up to one big stinking conclusion that I could not explain away.

People often mistake my Coup for a Sangheili fan. Rtas =/= the general Sangheili mindset, or at least I think.

  • 11.28.2010 1:24 PM PDT

Sangheili were obviously intelligent, they were at tier 2 technology, even before the covenant, compared to humanity's tier 3 technology. They war ethics were obviously based off of the samurai's bushido.

  • 11.28.2010 1:44 PM PDT

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  • 11.28.2010 2:01 PM PDT

After all these comments about Elites I'm starting to really hate them, but I don't, even though they were douche bags, they did feel super duper guilty for what they had done after the war.

In "The Return" the Elite was horrified when he saw the room full of dead civilians. But that's it really, other than that they didn't do anything to help the humans.

If they really wanted a "purpose" they could've helped the humans rebuild. That's a purpose, right?

  • 11.28.2010 2:08 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: Sigma617
Sorry for assuming.
anyway I think Cole Protocol made me hate elites.
you've heard my explanation of this before I think:

"Sangheili are ALIENS not space samurai that kill themselves after stubbing a toe"

so i think all that honor crap effed up the elite archetype.
before Cole Protocol they never claimed to be honorable.

Yeah I remember that. :P

Yeah, the Cole Protocol put contradictions between their apparent culture, beliefs and then their actions in the war.

Posted by: the n00b pwner
they were at tier 2 technology, even before the covenant, compared to humanity's tier 3 technology.

The Bestiarium says that they were Space-Faring Tier 3 before discovering the San-Shyuum and reverse engineering Forerunner artefacts. It has taken them between then and 3000 years to get to Tier 2 with the aid of said Forerunner artefacts. Described in First Strike, they do not even have an equivalent to Maxwell's field Equations for electromagnetism...

  • 11.28.2010 2:09 PM PDT

I'm not sure what you're looking for.

"Reckless words pierce like a sword, but the tongue of the wise brings healing" -- Proverbs 12:18


Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: spurkis
Okay noble maybe ain't the quite correct word. They are fricking beasts.

Try monsters.

Posted by: spurkis
But they have great respect for war ethics when it all comes to all, they are very honorable

They are very hypocritical, and lack integrity to their own "war ethics". They curse anyone who flees from battle, yet Sangheili do it to fall back and regroup. Okay, fair enough, a good idea afterall. So when their opponents do the same, why are they suddenly considered cowardly? Have not the Sangheili just done that? Pot calling the kettle black.

They curse the use of devices that can conceal you, such as active camouflage, in saying that only cowards use them. In Headhunters, a Sangheili complains that the only reason the S-III won was due to the cloaking devices that they had used. Unless I was imagining it, Sangheili did not hesitate to use them in order to win, and they used them all the time.

The belief of active camouflage being cowardly roots in their belief of facing your opponent in "honourable" combat. So why is it that they squat in their hollowed out pieces of metal and bombard a planet from orbit? Whenever they are defeated on the ground, they retreat (but wait a minute, I thought that they did not believe in retreat!) and glass the planet in a temper-tantrum. Spartan Red team gave them hell at the orbital generators on Reach. The Sangheili outnumbered them ridiculously, and they still had to resort to bringing in CCS-Cruisers to glass the Spartans. Not honourable combat there is it, a Cruiser Vs a S-II?

"Honourable combat". Says the race that use ridiculously powerful weapons compared to what their enemies have. Who use shields and agility boosting armour that is comparable to Mjolnir systems. The Sangheili are wholly reliant upon technology to win. (Stolen technology btw!)

They do not believe in slaughtering civilians (It does not merit as legitimate combat), so what the hell was the Human-Covenant war all about? And I am not talking about the Glassings, I am speaking of the act of them going into peoples homes and slaughtering the families within, like described in the Return. To paraphrase the Return "after 2 days of Human slaughter in their homes..."

They have no war ethnics, and no integrity, which means they have no honour. Honour is not the act of being a strong warrior. Anyone can kill a person, which is what it seems most people here think. By that logic, Jack the Ripper would be an honourable individual! You must (generally) display Integrity, fairness, nobility, trustworthiness and courage(although not always for courage).

Posted by: spurkis
they are intelligent, strong, basically superior to us in every way.

Bestiarum disagrees with all of this except the stregnth aspect. Leaving even that aside, here is a race that everyone claims to be perceptive, and yet they could not see that Humans were in fact Forerunner artefacts themselves when the Luminaries showed them as such every time a colony was discovered.

Posted by: spurkis
and of course aiding the humans, both by cleaning up the flood infestation in Voi and their assistance in capturing The Citadel on The Ark.

That was not out of kindness, enlightened judgement or atonement, merely an egoistic measure. 60% of their military and Fleets had been wiped out by a NOVA bomb at Joyous Exaltation. That forced them to find new allies in order to save their own skins. Had they not lost their fleets and armies, then they would have most likely wiped out Humanity as well, or would have certainly tried to do so. I would imagine them probably not hesitating to exhaust Humanity before taking any chances themselves in a war, seeing as what they do to other races in the Covenant.

Posted by: spurkis
The Arbiter (Thel Vadam) was definitely noble. He tried to convince a swarm of Drones to stop fighting for the Prophets, instead of killing them right away. He also paid his respects in the memorial at the end of Halo 3.

Would Thel have bothered to convince Rtas not to waste the Earth had most of his peoples military not been wiped out? It makes his motives dubious.

The Sangheili just seem like a bunch pseudo-intellectual, pseudo-honourable murderers. Just because they call themselves honourable does not mean that they are. It begs the question.


+1

  • 11.28.2010 2:18 PM PDT

I'm not sure what you're looking for.

"Reckless words pierce like a sword, but the tongue of the wise brings healing" -- Proverbs 12:18


Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: Sigma617
Sorry for assuming.
anyway I think Cole Protocol made me hate elites.
you've heard my explanation of this before I think:

"Sangheili are ALIENS not space samurai that kill themselves after stubbing a toe"

so i think all that honor crap effed up the elite archetype.
before Cole Protocol they never claimed to be honorable.

Yeah I remember that. :P

Yeah, the Cole Protocol put contradictions between their apparent culture, beliefs and then their actions in the war.

Posted by: the n00b pwner
they were at tier 2 technology, even before the covenant, compared to humanity's tier 3 technology.

The Bestiarium says that they were Space-Faring Tier 3 before discovering the San-Shyuum and reverse engineering Forerunner artefacts. It has taken them between then and 3000 years to get to Tier 2 with the aid of said Forerunner artefacts. Described in First Strike, they do not even have an equivalent to Maxwell's field Equations for electromagnetism...


They mostly reverse engineer Forerunner stuff, while humanity Makes the stuff themselves.

  • 11.28.2010 2:19 PM PDT

Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: the n00b pwner
they were at tier 2 technology, even before the covenant, compared to humanity's tier 3 technology.

The Bestiarium says that they were Space-Faring Tier 3 before discovering the San-Shyuum and reverse engineering Forerunner artefacts. It has taken them between then and 3000 years to get to Tier 2 with the aid of said Forerunner artefacts. Described in First Strike, they do not even have an equivalent to Maxwell's field Equations for electromagnetism...

While perhaps not as innovative as humanity, they still achieved space faring technology 3000 years earlier, and unlike the brutes they did not bomb themselves down to tier 4.

  • 11.28.2010 2:23 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: the n00b pwner
Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: the n00b pwner
they were at tier 2 technology, even before the covenant, compared to humanity's tier 3 technology.

The Bestiarium says that they were Space-Faring Tier 3 before discovering the San-Shyuum and reverse engineering Forerunner artefacts. It has taken them between then and 3000 years to get to Tier 2 with the aid of said Forerunner artefacts. Described in First Strike, they do not even have an equivalent to Maxwell's field Equations for electromagnetism...

While perhaps not as innovative as humanity, they still achieved space faring technology 3000 years earlier, and unlike the brutes they did not bomb themselves down to tier 4.

On your marks...

Get set...

GO!

That is not really how the evolutionary setting would work, or least it cannot be assumed. That only shows that they began their evolution first, that they are an older race. That is all I am afraid. If they had both began evolution at the same time, then the above could be applied.

Bestiarum, under the Human Category
H0mo Sapiens are largely unchanged in physiology in the last [100'000 years] but they have managed a remarkably quick evolution from Hunter-gatherer to Space-Farer, unaided by external influence.

Halo: Origins shows it as well. Bronze age to Space-Farer for Sangheili took 100'000 years. Humanity did it in like 6000.

  • 11.28.2010 2:43 PM PDT

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