Bungie Universe
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Subject: The Destruction of a Universe: Halo Reach's Aftermath

Expressing my strong liberal views without shame. Favorite quotes below:

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."
"One starts to live when he can live outside himself."

- Albert Einstein

This thread was originally created in the Reach forum. Since pages fluctuate constantly on that forum and since mature discussion is difficult to maintain, I have decided to post this here.
These are not all the problems this game's story faces. These are just some chief examples.
For a larger discussion theme: do you follow the book canon as being the "true" canon, or do you follow the latest canon that Reach has essentially imposed. Why?
I've noted that most people on the Reach forum in particular tend to complain about the multiplayer aspect of the game far more than anything else. However, one aspect which I feel has suffered from a severe lack of attention, and also been ignored by much of the community and Bungie at large was canon.

The canon for the Halo franchise has kept me going, for a large part. Its science fiction and ingenuity is truly seen in the first three games, and more significantly in the novels written by Eric Nylund, which contained masterful continuations and expansions of this Universe I came to love.

The best books by far were the Fall of Reach, First Strike, and of course, the Ghosts of Onyx. Unfortunately, Halo Reach has muddled the canon from all of these works. It hasn't destroyed canon, but it sure did bring up inconsistencies. I didn't want to see this great Universe suffer from a tremendous lack of attention to story detail, but unfortunately, that is exactly what has happened.

The Spartans
For anyone who may have been new to the Halo franchise, and picked up Reach and just went through the campaign, it would seem as though these soldiers just wore upgraded armor that gave them energy shields and such. There would have been no indication of augmented, battle-hardened, trained, super-efficient machines that the Spartans actually are.

The biggest flaw in this respect was Jorge, the Spartan 2. Spartan 2's were not tanks! They functioned as soldiers who could get an impossible mission done, quickly, stealthily, and efficiently. They did not use huge weapons all the time as Jorge did. They used small weapons to maximize their mobility, and their hand to hand combat, with the MJOLNIR armor that increased their already super-human strength five-fold.

Unfortunately, the Spartans that Nylund depicts are infinitely superior to the ones Bungie depicts. The only Spartan Bungie has actually nailed is Master Chief. The other Spartans weren't much more different. In fact, some were stronger, smarter, faster, and even more practical! Noble Team sounds like a rag-tag group of marines who don't know what they are doing. This may be as a result of the poor generic voice actors. Noble Six, was definitely more of a Spartan 2 than a Spartan 3.

The Fall of Reach
There were also major inconsistencies on the actual event the game focused on. Although I didn't mind the editions Bungie made for their own liking, in certain cases, they completely broke perfect canonical elements. Noble Six didn't need to deliver Cortana to Captain Keyes for the story to matter, or for that matter, the Pillar of Autumn's presence at all.

Furthermore, Bungie should've have concentrated on the actions of established Spartan 2 squads rather than putting together an absolutely awful character cast of Spartan 3's who had control over a battle-hardened Spartan 2, who by the way, didn't display any Spartan 2 like traits as mentioned before.

This is not to say that the game should have followed the book's events. The story instead should have served those loyal fans that have stuck with the franchise, and read the fiction. You know, if people complained about too many references, that isn't Bungie's problem. There are books that could've been read for a much more authentic and satiating campaign experience, traits that simply didn't apply to this narrative.

Also, where were the super MAC guns? These were the most important defense of the system of Epsilon Eridani from attackers. They shot super-heated metal slugs the size of mountains at several thousand miles per second. The Covenant would have no problem glassing Reach without them. To omit these from space combat (seeing them) simply wasn't wise. Also, what happened to the massive fleet of UNSC ships sent to defend Reach, and that actually did defend Reach. We also maybe five or four actual ships in this game fighting. The sense of scale was completely off in space.

Conclusion
Halo Reach had some truly fantastic gameplay elements incorporated into its package. However, the campaign, compared to the works of Nylund, and relative to the potential this story had for such an exciting point in the fiction, fell short. It was completely uninspired from good works such as the novels. The only references that were made were from Halo CE, but that was more gameplay than anything else.

The common argument of "games trump books in canon" is largely irrelevant to the matter hand. It doesn't matter which one has priority, it matters which one is good! Everything from the gross distortion of the Spartans to actual flaws in the story make it very disappointing. It seems to me that Bungie ignored any opportunities to make their campaign stand out in the crowd of bad FPS campaigns to set a standard. Unfortunately, Bungie paid significantly less attention on their series' driving force, the canon, and just spent all their time on gratuitous matchmaking mayhem.

  • 12.16.2010 4:10 PM PDT

I'm 16 and an ecxellent gamer I enjoy friendly competion, but I have a rather distaste for cheating and dirty language.


Posted by: Sigma617
I have to agree.

Man I love this game and i'm not gonna stop playing it (it's really fun) but every time I play the campaign I feel a little betrayed by what could have been.

the events of Reach are a nice "what if" story but I would so much prefer the events of Fall of Reach.

Me too I just read Fall of Reach and it was alot better than the campaign of Reach.
I agree with OP

  • 12.16.2010 4:20 PM PDT


Posted by: Plasma Prestige
This thread was originally created in the Reach forum. Since pages fluctuate constantly on that forum and since mature discussion is difficult to maintain, I have decided to post this here.
These are not all the problems this game's story faces. These are just some chief examples.
For a larger discussion theme: do you follow the book canon as being the "true" canon, or do you follow the latest canon that Reach has essentially imposed. Why?
I've noted that most people on the Reach forum in particular tend to complain about the multiplayer aspect of the game far more than anything else. However, one aspect which I feel has suffered from a severe lack of attention, and also been ignored by much of the community and Bungie at large was canon.

The canon for the Halo franchise has kept me going, for a large part. Its science fiction and ingenuity is truly seen in the first three games, and more significantly in the novels written by Eric Nylund, which contained masterful continuations and expansions of this Universe I came to love.

The best books by far were the Fall of Reach, First Strike, and of course, the Ghosts of Onyx. Unfortunately, Halo Reach has muddled the canon from all of these works. It hasn't destroyed canon, but it sure did bring up inconsistencies. I didn't want to see this great Universe suffer from a tremendous lack of attention to story detail, but unfortunately, that is exactly what has happened.

The Spartans
For anyone who may have been new to the Halo franchise, and picked up Reach and just went through the campaign, it would seem as though these soldiers just wore upgraded armor that gave them energy shields and such. There would have been no indication of augmented, battle-hardened, trained, super-efficient machines that the Spartans actually are.

no Halo game has ever--repeat EVER--showed the Spartans in their fullest abilities.

The biggest flaw in this respect was Jorge, the Spartan 2. Spartan 2's were not tanks! They functioned as soldiers who could get an impossible mission done, quickly, stealthily, and efficiently. They did not use huge weapons all the time as Jorge did. They used small weapons to maximize their mobility, and their hand to hand combat, with the MJOLNIR armor that increased their already super-human strength five-fold.

Jorge was the designated heavy weapon specialist, just like Sam, who used primarily the heavy weapons.

Unfortunately, the Spartans that Nylund depicts are infinitely superior to the ones Bungie depicts. The only Spartan Bungie has actually nailed is Master Chief. The other Spartans weren't much more different. In fact, some were stronger, smarter, faster, and even more practical! Noble Team sounds like a rag-tag group of marines who don't know what they are doing. This may be as a result of the poor generic voice actors. Noble Six, was definitely more of a Spartan 2 than a Spartan 3.

Noble Six was designated Hyper-Lethal, of course he'll be more badass. You seem to be under the impression that--just because they are S-III's--they are automatically inferior in every way to SII's. These are still people, remember, and they all have their inherint traits and abilities.

The Fall of Reach
There were also major inconsistencies on the actual event the game focused on. Although I didn't mind the editions Bungie made for their own liking, in certain cases, they completely broke perfect canonical elements. Noble Six didn't need to deliver Cortana to Captain Keyes for the story to matter, or for that matter, the Pillar of Autumn's presence at all.

Furthermore, Bungie should've have concentrated on the actions of established Spartan 2 squads rather than putting together an absolutely awful character cast of Spartan 3's who had control over a battle-hardened Spartan 2, who by the way, didn't display any Spartan 2 like traits as mentioned before.

while I agree at the date discrepancies I repeat: No Halo game has shown what the Spartan--II's were ACTUALLY capable of. When was the last time you sprinted at 40kph as Master Chief? Didn't think so.

This is not to say that the game should have followed the book's events. The story instead should have served those loyal fans that have stuck with the franchise, and read the fiction. You know, if people complained about too many references, that isn't Bungie's problem. There are books that could've been read for a much more authentic and satiating campaign experience, traits that simply didn't apply to this narrative.

Also, where were the super MAC guns? These were the most important defense of the system of Epsilon Eridani from attackers. They shot super-heated metal slugs the size of mountains at several thousand miles per second. The Covenant would have no problem glassing Reach without them. To omit these from space combat (seeing them) simply wasn't wise. Also, what happened to the massive fleet of UNSC ships sent to defend Reach, and that actually did defend Reach. We also maybe five or four actual ships in this game fighting. The sense of scale was completely off in space.

The SMAC was used, but on extremely low power, against the Corvette in the Sword Base level.

And their were only 20 SMACs, which didn't--most likely--want to risk being destroyed by the Supercarrier if they dared move into position to fire.

The space scene was underwhelming as it was before the forces truly went to war with each other. It was only the local fleet vs a Supercarrier fleet. Even the FoR states the huge-ass fleet you seem to think existed at Reach wasn't there to begin with; they recalled all forces to Reach once the Covie's made their grand appearance, they were not always there.

Conclusion
Halo Reach had some truly fantastic gameplay elements incorporated into its package. However, the campaign, compared to the works of Nylund, and relative to the potential this story had for such an exciting point in the fiction, fell short. It was completely uninspired from good works such as the novels. The only references that were made were from Halo CE, but that was more gameplay than anything else.

The common argument of "games trump books in canon" is largely irrelevant to the matter hand. It doesn't matter which one has priority, it matters which one is good! Everything from the gross distortion of the Spartans to actual flaws in the story make it very disappointing. It seems to me that Bungie ignored any opportunities to make their campaign stand out in the crowd of bad FPS campaigns to set a standard. Unfortunately, Bungie paid significantly less attention on their series' driving force, the canon, and just spent all their time on gratuitous matchmaking mayhem.

I do agree with you here, though; its rediculous that they botched some perfect canon elements for the sake of an underwhelming story


[Edited on 12.16.2010 5:18 PM PST]

  • 12.16.2010 5:17 PM PDT

HOWEVER despite my previous post (wont let me edit for some reason) I will say this: the ENTIRE Haloverse was not destroyed. A few discrepancies (most of which easily explainable) in just ONE battle does not ruin this great and terrific story that expands 100,000+ years.

How does Reach have anything to do with the Forerunner timeline for example?

  • 12.16.2010 5:21 PM PDT

""We meet again, young one. I am the last of those who gave you breath and shape and form, millions of years ago. I am the last of those your kind rose up and ruthlessly destroyed. And our answer is at hand."

Halo: Reach contradicts other Halo games.

So I always find that argument fairly stupid and biased.

  • 01.26.2011 8:59 PM PDT

Yes! Fall of Reach had a much better storyline. As i've said many times, I was disappointed only by the storyline of Reach (thats not to say there are other things that could be improved).

  • 01.26.2011 9:07 PM PDT

"Were it so easy..." -Thel Vadame.

I love this game. I really enjoyed it and still do. It's a great way to tip the hat at the end of the show, um... Gameplay wise.

Compared to the other titles, Reach had no genuine epic Halo story. It was a 'shoot the aliens!' game. You destroyed an AA gun or activated one almost every level and randomly ran into Halsey and an AI and then died.

Now, to hardcore story fans like me and tons of others, this story was really bad except for the fact that we are able to experience the trama before the Halo events instead of just play through the campaign once and then spend days on multiplayer like most regular players.

Reach so much potential. It could have been better IMO.

[Edited on 01.26.2011 10:27 PM PST]

  • 01.26.2011 10:25 PM PDT

One problem with your argument. Eric Nylund wrote Halo Reach's story. So for example with Jorge, it isn't comparing Nylund's Spartans to Bungie's, it's comparing Nylund's to Nylund's. Besides that was Jorge's MOS.

  • 01.26.2011 11:30 PM PDT
  • gamertag: An0nz
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CoD is a good game, even if the Halo series are better in some aspects. Anyone who insults either is just bad in that game. Grow up.


Posted by: OniLink147
One problem with your argument. Eric Nylund wrote Halo Reach's story. So for example with Jorge, it isn't comparing Nylund's Spartans to Bungie's, it's comparing Nylund's to Nylund's. Besides that was Jorge's MOS.

Eric Nylund didn't write Halo: Reach's story, IIRC he only wrote Halsey's journal as a co-author. He may have been there for consultation, but the campaign is largely written by Bungie. No writer in the right mind would ruin their own work on purpose, especially not with a flawed replacement.

  • 01.26.2011 11:53 PM PDT

Posted by: Beowolfe

Posted by: OniLink147
One problem with your argument. Eric Nylund wrote Halo Reach's story. So for example with Jorge, it isn't comparing Nylund's Spartans to Bungie's, it's comparing Nylund's to Nylund's. Besides that was Jorge's MOS.

Eric Nylund didn't write Halo: Reach's story, IIRC he only wrote Halsey's journal as a co-author. He may have been there for consultation, but the campaign is largely written by Bungie. No writer in the right mind would ruin their own work on purpose, especially not with a flawed replacement.

Went back and watched the credits. Read it wrong. XP Oh well, but anyway. Other than a retcon on exactly when the Covenant showed up(The campaign was basically the opening skirmishes up until the mission "The Package" when the actual battle started) and where exactly the Pillar of Autumn was during the battle, the retcons were minor and about the same as retcons from previous games.

And also about the space battle. No one seems to understand that unlike in movies, Space Battles aren't going to be focused in one small area. They are going to be spread out around basically an entire half of the planet and farther away from the planet, not just in direct orbit. The same goes for the SMAC guns. It makes sense you didn;t see them considering you only have 20 to cover an entire planet. They are going to be spread out pretty thin.

[Edited on 01.27.2011 12:11 AM PST]

  • 01.27.2011 12:10 AM PDT

I breathe BR, not kidding homie.

one thing that didnt make sense to me was, if jorge was a spartan 2, why did he have like the same xact armor layout (despite being grenadier variant) as the rest of noble team? who are all spartan 3's, jorges armor had same design, like leg wise

  • 01.27.2011 12:13 AM PDT

I breathe BR, not kidding homie.

arent the armors supposed to be differnt or was it just art direction?

  • 01.27.2011 12:14 AM PDT
  • gamertag: An0nz
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CoD is a good game, even if the Halo series are better in some aspects. Anyone who insults either is just bad in that game. Grow up.


Posted by: OniLink147
Posted by: Beowolfe

Posted by: OniLink147
One problem with your argument. Eric Nylund wrote Halo Reach's story. So for example with Jorge, it isn't comparing Nylund's Spartans to Bungie's, it's comparing Nylund's to Nylund's. Besides that was Jorge's MOS.

Eric Nylund didn't write Halo: Reach's story, IIRC he only wrote Halsey's journal as a co-author. He may have been there for consultation, but the campaign is largely written by Bungie. No writer in the right mind would ruin their own work on purpose, especially not with a flawed replacement.

Went back and watched the credits. Read it wrong. XP Oh well, but anyway. Other than a retcon on exactly when the Covenant showed up(The campaign was basically the opening skirmishes up until the mission "The Package" when the actual battle started) and where exactly the Pillar of Autumn was during the battle, the retcons were minor and about the same as retcons from previous games.

And also about the space battle. No one seems to understand that unlike in movies, Space Battles aren't going to be focused in one small area. They are going to be spread out around basically an entire half of the planet and farther away from the planet, not just in direct orbit. The same goes for the SMAC guns. It makes sense you didn;t see them considering you only have 20 to cover an entire planet. They are going to be spread out pretty thin.


The retcon was far more significant than that...but there are already threads made for that. More importantly, if Bungie did create the game with things we expected, like the presence of the SMACs, would you have said that the campaign sucked? Probably not, because it follows what we know already of the Battle of Reach and therefore makes as much sense as, if not more, than the version Bungie decided to give us.

  • 01.27.2011 8:33 AM PDT

Jorge was reassigned at some point to work with Noble Team and changed whatever tatics he normally used to better suit his weaker III counterparts. The reason that 6 seems more like a II is because of gameplay reasons and being the Sparten III version of Master Chief.

As for the MACs, they were all concentrated in one area in space and moving them would've taken time. A single Covie ship that is constantly moving would no doubt be a hard target for the MACs to hit.

  • 01.27.2011 9:50 AM PDT

Don't worry, you're still your mom's favorite Bnet member.

I'll be honest I love Reach's campaign and I will continue to play it, but every time I do I feel like Bungie betrayed us.

  • 01.27.2011 11:34 AM PDT


Posted by: Macles0007
Halo: Reach contradicts other Halo games.

So I always find that argument fairly stupid and biased.



What are you talking about? There are no contradictions between Reach and other games, Reach only changed things for the books, and really it has almost no impact on anything except TFoR.

  • 01.27.2011 11:36 AM PDT

Posted by:ScubaToaster
Posted by: HipiO7
This man, this man right here put it so eloquently that I actually cancelled my own 2000+ word long post.
/slow clap for respect


:)
The person who said participating is important, not winning, obviously never won anything.

But Jorge was part of a bigger team, he was pretty much the heavy weapons specialist, so it's normal for him to carry a heavy weapon.

I dont see any problem with him using a heavy turret as weapon. Unless he were going on a sensitive op like Nightfall's.

  • 01.27.2011 11:38 AM PDT

Signatures are for squares.

Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: Macles0007
Halo: Reach contradicts other Halo games.

So I always find that argument fairly stupid and biased.



What are you talking about? There are no contradictions between Reach and other games, Reach only changed things for the books, and really it has almost no impact on anything except TFoR.


>Captain Keyes during first cutscene, "We made a blind jump, how did they..."
>Halo Reach basically tells us Cortana had direct coordinates to Halo.

Also, Chief is seen sleeping in the vehicle bay on the pillar for some reason. He's later seen in the Cryo bay.

  • 01.27.2011 1:11 PM PDT

Don't worry, you're still your mom's favorite Bnet member.

Posted by: privet caboose
>Captain Keyes during first cutscene, "We made a blind jump, how did they..."
>Halo Reach basically tells us Cortana had direct coordinates to Halo.
Perhaps Cortana didn't tell him so that he would think they were in accordance with the Cole Protocol.

Also, Chief is seen sleeping in the vehicle bay on the pillar for some reason. He's later seen in the Cryo bay. Linda?

[Edited on 01.27.2011 1:20 PM PST]

  • 01.27.2011 1:20 PM PDT

Another thing that bugged the crap out of me was the Pillar of Autumn on Reach's surface and flying in atmosphere. The UNSC's large ships having to be built in space and only being able to operate outside of an atmosphere was a huge plot point in the expanded canon(even in the games it's stated several times Frigates are the largest warships that can operate in atmosphere). It was one of the main reasons the UNSC navy was almost always outnumbered by the Covenant; building large warships in space was slow and difficult compared to Covenant ships that could be built planet side and launched into orbit using anti-grav. The UNSC simply lacked the technology to stay on an even footing with the Covenant.

  • 01.27.2011 1:36 PM PDT
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Posted by: Sigma617
I have to agree.

Man I love this game and i'm not gonna stop playing it (it's really fun) but every time I play the campaign I feel a little betrayed by what could have been.

the events of Reach are a nice "what if" story but I would so much prefer the events of Fall of Reach.

Same here. The vast majority who brought Reach never read the books. So why not tell them that story?

  • 01.27.2011 1:40 PM PDT

Posted by: AquaBlader
Soon to be breaking news:


US Coast Guard prepares for massive rescue mission after Iranian fleet sinks off shore. Reports say a small thunderstorm caused most of the ships to simply...fall apart.

Posted by: MegaMuffin16
Also, Chief is seen sleeping in the vehicle bay on the pillar for some reason. He's later seen in the Cryo bay. Linda?

Bungie confirmed it was the Chief.

I consider it to be a non-canon Easter Egg, like the one at the end of ODST.

Unless Buck does like to eat bugs off of monkeys.

  • 01.27.2011 2:16 PM PDT


Posted by: privet caboose
Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: Macles0007
Halo: Reach contradicts other Halo games.

So I always find that argument fairly stupid and biased.



What are you talking about? There are no contradictions between Reach and other games, Reach only changed things for the books, and really it has almost no impact on anything except TFoR.


>Captain Keyes during first cutscene, "We made a blind jump, how did they..."
>Halo Reach basically tells us Cortana had direct coordinates to Halo.

Also, Chief is seen sleeping in the vehicle bay on the pillar for some reason. He's later seen in the Cryo bay.



That first point is hardly evidence, Reach never states what it was Cortana was working on, only that it was Forerunner. And actually TFoR contradicts Halo:CE then, as TFoR clearly states she jumped to Halo using the Sigma Octanus rock. Actually, no matter what it was a blind jump, they didn't know what was at those coordinates, only that they were going there. That seems pretty blind to me.

That's a bloody EASTER EGG, and I can't stress that enough, last I checked they don't have any real meaning for the actual canon of the Haloverse. That's like saying Link, Mario, and Samus live in the same world because Link and Samus appear sleeping in one of the Mario games. It would seem you're being far too nit-picky in your view that Reach destroyed all Halo canon ever. It only directly affects the book TFoR.

  • 01.27.2011 2:24 PM PDT

im not troll'n
crazy capers
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a spartan 2 is basicly a tank compared to normal ground units

  • 01.27.2011 2:34 PM PDT

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