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  • Subject: Tweaking the Elites for the Halo remake?
Subject: Tweaking the Elites for the Halo remake?

Maybe 343i will remake Halo: CE and maybe they won't. If they do, my question is what, if anything, could they do to make the Elites any cooler?

Don't get me wrong, IMHO, the Elites from the original Halo were the gold standard of how to design a satisfying bad guy. (Followed, perhaps, by the hilarious CE Grunts. "Run AWAAAAY!")

The fearsome Elites of Halo: CE sounded incredibly ALIEN. They managed to convey a full range of emotions without resorting to a single word in English. (Shame on Halo 2's designers for deciding that a tremendously -blam!- British accent was just the upgrade the Elites needed.) Elites confidently growled ("WORT wort wort!"), roared in fury (when their shields were knocked out), screamed horribly ("Aieeeeee!" when tagged with a stickynade) and let out pathetic little sighs when assassinated. And don't forget the hilarious contempt they showed by chuckling at the Chief's death ("Huh huh huh!"). Man, it motivated you to put the SOB down the next time! And nothing was sweeter revenge than emptying a full clip into the bastard, then racing in with your shields down and delivering a nice fat melee WHOOMP to the big boy's mandibles as he let out his last breath. Play Halo: CE again - there were so many great audio cues to let you know when you had dropped an Elite's shield or put him down from a distance.

The Elites didn't just sound great, they also couldn't have looked or moved any better. The animations for their movement was a thing of beauty: moving in fluid loping strides, stopping on a dime and then sidestepping while ripping off p-rifle shots at you, running for cover when their shields were down, throwing themselves sideways to avoid grenades or needler fire, leaping 20 yards in the air to kill the Chief with an energy sword, or bashing the Chief over the head with a Plasma Rifle when he dared get too close. Their death animations were wonderful - especially when headshot: head lolling to side, knees buckling, thumping face first onto the ground.

I wouldn't change a thing about how the Elites sound or move. I would suggest subtle changes to their combat behavior to make things fresher and more challenging:

1. Make the Red Elites foolishly aggressive

Did you ever notice that Halo: CE's Elites are surprisingly reluctant to fire their p-rifles on full auto? It's a rather ginger Dink-dink-dink on the trigger. In comparison, Halo 2's Elites squeezed the trigger and rarely let go. The problem was that on higher difficulties in Halo 2, the Elites' murderous rate of fire essentially forced the player to resort to the boring NOOB combo or tagging them with a stickynade. But having to fight the same way every time was no fun. So let me suggest a compromise.

Make the Red Elites - already pretty cool guys - a bit meaner. Let them fire full auto at the Chief's armored butt for a second or two, even continuing to fire after he dives behind cover. It would definitely make them a lot tougher to survive. (In fact, 343i might have to lessen the damage their p-rifle dishes out slightly, say 25%, to avoid returning to Halo 2's level of frustrating difficulty.) But here's the catch: the Red bastards are so bloodthirsty, they regularly overheat their p-rifles! (Cue a new sound effect, "OW OW OW!" as the heat exhaust burns their hands.) This of course opens up a small window of time for you to slip in and bash them over the head. It's a subtle change that will alter the gameplay strategy for Red Elites a little more from the inexperienced Blue Elites.

2. Make the Blue Elites exploit the final remaining Grunt

We've tweaked the Red Elites to be more agressive, why not shift the Blue Elites' personality a little? The Halo novels often describe the Grunts as "Cannon fodder" for the higher races of the Covenant. The haughty Elites look down on them with great condescension and consider Grunts' lives essentially worthless. What I have in mind only affects gameplay when a Blue Elite's posse of Grunts is reduced to one little bugger. It shouldn't happen every time, but only once every three encounters or so.

The Elite, seeing his back-up forces decimated and fearing for his own life, will let out a series of angry barks ("Rahrahrah!") to the last Grunt and forcefully gesture at you. (He's ordering the Grunt to charge your position.) Sometimes the Grunts will sadly comply, and squeal something ridiculous with all the bravery he can muster ("Here I come! EeeEEeeEeee!") as he trots towards you. Other times, the Grunt will hesitate and utter something like, "But I don't want to die!!!! Plea-he-he-heease!!" The enraged Blue Elite will then grab him and hurl his little butt in your general direction. While he flies through the air squeeling, arms flailing (not unlike when you've stuck him with a stickynade) and shooting his p-pistol at you, the Blue Elite roars and charges your position. (Maybe the Grunt will be so mad, when he gets up, he'll throw a grenade at the Elite and then take off running, little arms over his head.)

Alternately, just before tossing the pathetic Grunt at you, the Blue Elite could stick two plasma 'nades on the little bugger's back, hoping that you'll both go BOOM. This would really capture the Elites' arrogant cruelty. Of course, we'd get an especially heart-wrenching cry ("Why meeeeeee!?") from the doomed Grunt.

These are a just couple ideas. I didn't want to make deep changes to the Blue and Red Elites. I just wanted to retain their basic flavor but "kick things up a notch". Anybody else think of a way to make the Elites even sweeter?

  • 12.20.2010 11:55 AM PDT

Major C.B.

These ideas seem a bit over the top to me. You said subtle, but these are actually quite large strategic changes. I think the only thing I'd want 343 to change about the Elites is their bearing. In CE, when you were sneaking up on them, they look somewhat humanoid; walking upright, etc. In Reach, they are humpbacks, but not the semi-retarded humpbacks from Halo 3; amped up, huge, fearsome hunchbacks. I would like these Elites in CE. Not their AI, just their models. The reason for leaving the CE AI is obvious.

For one, the Reach AI has many boring flaws. The chief concern for me is the melee. When you're chased by a Zealot, you are SCREWED. They run faster than you, and if you manage to find a perch they can't climb, they'll throw a grenade at you. To add to that, you spend an entire clip popping their shields. Also, they instant the Zealot gets in a certain vicinity of you, you're dead. They have this rapid melee that's not only unblockable, but undodgeable. They are also aggressive beyond reason. They'll charge out of cover right toward you, and you can't keep a stream of suppressive fire up to keep them in cover; they keep charging.

By comparison, the CE Zealots were just as tough, without being cheap. Their shields also wouldn't pop with a single clip. However, the counter to this was suppressive fire. You fire a shot at them, and they'll hide. Use this time to dispatch any enemies around you, recharge your shields, reload, whatever. Second, you can literally out-melee a Zealot. If you jump backward at just the right time, you'll dodge their slash, while also getting your own in. Also, rather than just throwing a grenade at you when you're up high, they jump after you.

So the CE Zealots are just as legitimately difficult as the Reach Zealots, but a LOT less cheap in that not every encounter means making that Zealot your battlefield priority or dying very quickly. Also, none of this ornate maroon-colored armor, either. I want my good old-fashioned gold-armored Zealots.

Similar with all the other Elites; I find the Reach Elites generally stupider than the CE Elites, but they look more diverse and fierce. So the CE AI, but the Reach models. That'll do.

  • 12.20.2010 12:16 PM PDT

I don't mind what they do, Reach elites are more bad ass but I don't really mind what they do. I think there is a limit before it becomes something like Halo: CE 1.5 instead of a remake.

  • 12.20.2010 2:33 PM PDT


Posted by: dude527
I think the only thing I'd want 343 to change about the Elites is their bearing. In CE, when you were sneaking up on them, they look somewhat humanoid; walking upright, etc. In Reach, they are humpbacks, but not the semi-retarded humpbacks from Halo 3; amped up, huge, fearsome hunchbacks. I would like these Elites in CE. Not their AI, just their models.

Gah, Reach's elites' models are almost my least favorite in the series. The only ones I like less are Halo 3's.

The walking animations are horribly floaty looking, the armor is way too huge and bubbly to be allow the elites to show themselves and be scary, and the feet look HILARIOUS. Even in the thick of combat, those not-hooves with huge round blobs of bright armor are distracting.

I dunno, maybe I'm just bitter because I have a hard time associating with Reach elites thanks to them not looking very similar to the elites I've been shooting for almost a decade.




OT:

Nah. The red elites are already incredibly aggressive. PR mashing is something that zealots already do, and it allows them to be unique and scary in their own way.

As for the suggestion with the blues, AI-to-AI orders are something that always needs to be very carefully considered, because more often than not it winds up looking contrived and scripted. True AI-to-AI order-giving is almost always BS'd in FPS's through simple "stay close to allies" behavior and similar things, and Halo is no exception.
The other issue is that it would make blues feel less similar to reds, and one of the things I've always loved about those two types is that they're very similar but their slight strength and aggression differences change how you have to approach them; it allows both worldbuilding cohesion and dynamic combat. There could perhaps be AI tweaks that would adjust their behaviors to be slightly more different, but introducing entire gameplay mechanics seems extreme.

[Edited on 12.20.2010 3:25 PM PST]

  • 12.20.2010 3:14 PM PDT
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1. So basically, you're suggesting we combine Majors with Zealots? The plasma rifle wielding Zealots only had two problems: they didn't move like Elite Majors and charged at you.

Increase the preferred combat range to increase the distance from which they can shoot you from and make him move like Elite Majors and we have a Elite suitable for close to medium range combat.

Here's how I think it should be:

Elite minors replaced with Elite major AI and traits and red armor recolored blue armor. That way, minors will fire in bursts and will present a challenge for once.

Elite majors combined with Elite Zealot AI (with the suggestions I suggested earlier being implemented) and perhaps given the Zealot's shield or a Spec Ops Elite's shield (so they can withstand a plasma grenade stick).

Elite Zealots that wield plasma rifles should have their preferred combat and shooting distance increased so they don't charge at you foolishly but shoot you from medium range.

Elite Zealots that wield Energy Swords should be granted shields that cannot be stuck by grenades and the needles from the needler should bounce off of their shields and splatters will only lower their shield rather than kill them. They should always charge at you (rather than charging at you when berserking).

Finally, I would like to see Ultra Elites (or the Elite Zealots wielding the plasma rifles recolored).

2. Or he could point at you (like they do when they see you) and the Grunt charges at you and then the Elite throws a grenade when the Grunt reaches a certain distance and sticks the Grunt and then charges in after the Grunt to finish you off.

[Edited on 12.20.2010 5:10 PM PST]

  • 12.20.2010 5:07 PM PDT
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Wall...o'...text.

  • 12.20.2010 6:46 PM PDT

Save Lives. Go Vegan.

Dylan_Mulenburg@hotmail.com

If any charge, it should be the minors (blue), because they're the ones with the least experience and most likely to make impulsive, un-tactical decisions.

  • 12.21.2010 12:13 AM PDT

Major C.B.

Posted by: Tupolev
Posted by: dude527
I think the only thing I'd want 343 to change about the Elites is their bearing. In CE, when you were sneaking up on them, they look somewhat humanoid; walking upright, etc. In Reach, they are humpbacks, but not the semi-retarded humpbacks from Halo 3; amped up, huge, fearsome hunchbacks. I would like these Elites in CE. Not their AI, just their models.

Gah, Reach's elites' models are almost my least favorite in the series. The only ones I like less are Halo 3's.

The walking animations are horribly floaty looking, the armor is way too huge and bubbly to be allow the elites to show themselves and be scary, and the feet look HILARIOUS. Even in the thick of combat, those not-hooves with huge round blobs of bright armor are distracting.

I dunno, maybe I'm just bitter because I have a hard time associating with Reach elites thanks to them not looking very similar to the elites I've been shooting for almost a decade.


Considering how similar Halo 1 and 2's Elites looked (or maybe it's just been a while since I've played 2), and how the only other game in the series is Halo 3, it's not really surprising how Reach's are your second least favorite, considering you only have 3-4 selections to choose from.

The only thing I really dislike about Reach's Elites is how same-y they seem. In CE, you would fight a Minor and Major, and you KNOW the difference, and could easily state how Majors are more dangerous. In Reach, an Elite is an Elite, basically. It seems to me that they all have the same AI, little nuances, just slightly different armor. But I never got that "I'm fighting a Major! OH CRAP!" feeling as I did in CE. I only got the "Well, I'm fighting an Elite... And he's got a Concussion Rifle... Annoying..." In other words, as you put it (and I love how you put it), I didn't really approach the different types of Elites differently. It was always about either the noob combo, or DMR until I can pop the head. But at least we can all agree that Halo 3 had crap for Elite models. I personally think Reach's are some of the coolest in the series (they for once just feel huge AND alien), but we'll agree to disagree there.

Posted by: Sliding Ghost
1. So basically, you're suggesting we combine Majors with Zealots? The plasma rifle wielding Zealots only had two problems: they didn't move like Elite Majors and charged at you.

Increase the preferred combat range to increase the distance from which they can shoot you from and make him move like Elite Majors and we have a Elite suitable for close to medium range combat.

Here's how I think it should be:

Elite minors replaced with Elite major AI and traits and red armor recolored blue armor. That way, minors will fire in bursts and will present a challenge for once.

Elite majors combined with Elite Zealot AI (with the suggestions I suggested earlier being implemented) and perhaps given the Zealot's shield or a Spec Ops Elite's shield (so they can withstand a plasma grenade stick).

Elite Zealots that wield plasma rifles should have their preferred combat and shooting distance increased so they don't charge at you foolishly but shoot you from medium range.

Elite Zealots that wield Energy Swords should be granted shields that cannot be stuck by grenades and the needles from the needler should bounce off of their shields and splatters will only lower their shield rather than kill them. They should always charge at you (rather than charging at you when berserking).


I think I disagree in buffing the Elites in this way. I'm all for making the Minors better off, making the Majors more like Zealots, and making the Zealots smart, but I don't want things I consider "cheap" like having them able to withstand a Plasma Grenade, or not being punctured by Needles. These have always come across as cheap buffs to me, that these enemies are invincible to some of your weapons; a feature more suited to an RPG, in my opinion. For an FPS (especially CE), my motto is always "smarter, not stronger". Reach has plenty of the alterations you made, and they all feel cheap to me.

Posted by: ShadowVegan
If any charge, it should be the minors (blue), because they're the ones with the least experience and most likely to make impulsive, un-tactical decisions.


If we're going to be in line with Halo lore, no well-trained Elite should be bound to make reckless, impulsive decisions. The culture the Elites are raised in in Sanghelios is very much survival-based, and the only time any Elite will make a stupid decision is when it's honor or survival. No Elite will deliberately charge you behind cover because they think it's going to work. No Elite would have THAT little experience, as they've all essentially been forced to survive since birth.

  • 12.21.2010 2:51 PM PDT

The only colored elites ive noticed all of halo reach are the fricken zeolots and white ones what happened to gold red and blue ones and they need to take those long elite strides they took and not be so hunched over so i agree wit most of you.

  • 12.21.2010 3:24 PM PDT

The Elites are pretty good IMHO. Maybe some random orders for Jackals and Grunts, but that's about it.

I was really disappointed in the Elites in Reach. They all act the same unless they have a sword, in which case, it's "oh -blam!-". The only tangible difference I noticed was the shield strength between Minor and Major, and how there are literally no Minors in Firefight.

AND THEY CHANGED THE COLOURS!!! 4 games, and they somehow felt it necessary to -blam!- with the existing ranks.

[Edited on 12.21.2010 11:05 PM PST]

  • 12.21.2010 11:04 PM PDT

I like your thinking. Although, I do remember some elites in CE muttering "Bow to me!" Under their breath, on some occasions on AotCR.
I would like to see some brand of Elite agressive enough to storm your strongpoints and not be afraid to put his life on the line. That choke point(rock formation in the ravine) before you get to the gravity lift on T&R is a perfect example. Unless an elite is gravely wounded they will not enter that position to root MC out.
Also, all elites are nothing more than MC's personal sticky grendade caddy. Kill one and they drop one to three stickies for your enjoyment. It's not until Spec Ops boys arrive that they throw them. I'd like to see other colors try this, maybe not as accurately as those Spec Ops guys, but it would change things up a bit.

  • 12.22.2010 10:39 AM PDT
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Posted by: dude527

I think I disagree in buffing the Elites in this way. I'm all for making the Minors better off, making the Majors more like Zealots, and making the Zealots smart, but I don't want things I consider "cheap" like having them able to withstand a Plasma Grenade, or not being punctured by Needles. These have always come across as cheap buffs to me, that these enemies are invincible to some of your weapons; a feature more suited to an RPG, in my opinion. For an FPS (especially CE), my motto is always "smarter, not stronger". Reach has plenty of the alterations you made, and they all feel cheap to me.

Well, Zealots in Halo CE were too easy to kill with a plasma grenade stick and the Needler and such.

But you're right, I was going the way of Reach, not Halo.

So how about they make Zealots dive from grenades and needler needles more frequently and efficiently? That would allow them to be killed by such weapons but they wouldn't be easily killed by such weapons.

Or perhaps deployable equipment (deployable cover) should be introduced to Halo CE. But they should deploy it only when their shields are about to go down or when they're close to death.

[Edited on 12.22.2010 3:21 PM PST]

  • 12.22.2010 3:17 PM PDT

Major C.B.

Posted by: Sliding Ghost
Posted by: dude527

I think I disagree in buffing the Elites in this way. I'm all for making the Minors better off, making the Majors more like Zealots, and making the Zealots smart, but I don't want things I consider "cheap" like having them able to withstand a Plasma Grenade, or not being punctured by Needles. These have always come across as cheap buffs to me, that these enemies are invincible to some of your weapons; a feature more suited to an RPG, in my opinion. For an FPS (especially CE), my motto is always "smarter, not stronger". Reach has plenty of the alterations you made, and they all feel cheap to me.

Well, Zealots in Halo CE were too easy to kill with a plasma grenade stick and the Needler and such.

But you're right, I was going the way of Reach, not Halo.

So how about they make Zealots dive from grenades and needler needles more frequently and efficiently? That would allow them to be killed by such weapons but they wouldn't be easily killed by such weapons.

Or perhaps deployable equipment (deployable cover) should be introduced to Halo CE. But they should deploy it only when their shields are about to go down or when they're close to death.


Deployable cover is used in Mass Effect, and it's not fun. It's a good strategic feature, but if we're being honest, how many people want to whittle an enemy away to near-death, only to see them drop cover and recharge to near-full? It's frustrating.

Making them dive more frequently would be good, provided they could fire off a few counter shots while they dive. I only don't want to see the game reduced to making enemies invulnerable to anything. In my opinion, if you stick an enemy, you should be rewarded for that stick. It feels good to see the grenade connect, hear the enemy squeal, and get the kill. It's frustrating the see the grenade connect, and then bounce off or not have it kill them. So yes, the way of making it more difficult to actually achieve mentioned stick would be infinitely more ideal (and rewarding).

  • 12.22.2010 3:28 PM PDT

Bring back gold zealot's, 'nuff said.

  • 12.23.2010 1:38 AM PDT

On a related note, ******'s mom has really nice boobs, and it doesn't take much booze or encouragement to get her to let the puppies out of the pen...if you know what I mean...

I like these ideas

  • 01.01.2011 10:38 AM PDT
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My real Gtag is: (The Sacramentum) or (DoctorG26)
Generation 26: The first time you see this, add it to your sig, but add 1 to the number. Call it a social experiment.

Something about the reach elites just makes me feel... I don't know.... unafraid? The only times I ever have any sense of urgency in combat in Reach is on Legendary, or when I see alot of Ultras coming at me(Like a drop pod). When I see a zealot in Reach, I litterally am not scared at all. Their AI and weapon choice is so bland and horrible.
If they have an explosive weapon you just keep your distance and they can't kill you, if they have a turret you just use their slow movement speed to your advantage and throw grenades and shoot rockets/fuel rods while taking pot shots from cover. If they have a sword you just concentrate fire on them and they will go down pretty quick. An Ultra with dual plasma rifles is mch more scary.
I hope that 343i takes out alot of these crappy filler weapons(Cunc rifle, Plasma repeater) and just streamline the arsonal. Make each elite class only have a select few weapons.
Zealots:Sword, dual PRs(or buff the PR into an actual rifle and give them one)
Ultra:Carbine/NR, PR(or 2), sword, nades
Spec ops:Carbine/NR, PR, sword, nades
Stealth:Sword, PR
Major:PR, needler, rarely a carbine/NR, nades
Minor: needler, PR
Heavy weapons specialist(Green from H:3):Fuel Rod, Plasma launcher(using homing feature), turret.

This, combined with upgraded AI thaat focused on tactics like flanking and surpression would greatly improve the game.

I don't like the OP's ideas of making the grunt suicide(especially the elite throwing him)

  • 01.01.2011 10:35 PM PDT

Jesus loves you! But I think you're a -blam!-

You just can't beat Halo CE. It was too good a game. I also miss the Red Elites from Halo CE. They were always slightly tougher than the blues, and a few of them had a different, wing-like helmet. Don't get me started on how tough those Black armored elites were O_O

  • 02.03.2011 1:55 PM PDT

OHH YEA? WELL I'M ACTUALLY CHUCK NORRIS!

Don't change anything, except the colors of the PR, and other weapons.

  • 02.04.2011 12:06 AM PDT


Posted by: Grizzwizz
I don't mind what they do, Reach elites are more bad ass but I don't really mind what they do. I think there is a limit before it becomes something like Halo: CE 1.5 instead of a remake.


Exactly. Remakes should be the original smothered with HD goodness and sprinkled with familiarity. Essentially, the remake should feel more comprehensive and polished while at the same time tickling your nostalgia bone without flat-out copy and pasting.

  • 02.04.2011 11:39 AM PDT


Posted by: Sooo worty
These are a just couple ideas. I didn't want to make deep changes to the Blue and Red Elites. I just wanted to retain their basic flavor but "kick things up a notch". Anybody else think of a way to make the Elites even sweeter?


I like it. So long as we don't start moving elites to the light-speed karate chop bull-blam!- that they were in Reach I'm all for this, or any similar suggestions.

  • 02.04.2011 3:23 PM PDT