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  • Subject: I just can't justify eating meat anymore
Subject: I just can't justify eating meat anymore
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Posted by: Batchnator95
its the way the world works, its the food chain and we're up there, does a lion sympathise about eating a zebra.


Ahemm, have you watched "The Lion King"?

  • 12.24.2010 7:48 PM PDT
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Posted by: XII CIUTCH IIX
You guys put too much stress on subjectivity, but maybe some things are just wrong and right, and whether you pretend it's subjective or not, the guy who thought the holocaust was right was wrong.

His opinion is wrong. Opinions can be wrong.


We put stress on subjectivity because views on right/wrong are subjective.

What if, say 50 years from now, it's released that the Jews, Gypsies, "special" people etc... that were killed by the N4zis, were planning on assassinating every person in Europe and the N4zis found out? If my hypothetical is true, then the Holocaust wuold be right.

OT: Meat is yum.

  • 12.24.2010 7:49 PM PDT

.


Posted by: Batchnator95
its the way the world works, its the food chain and we're up there, does a lion sympathise about eating a zebra.


How can one answer this question? Does any human actually ever recall being a lion? Has any human actually ever been a lion?

We do have the ability to sympathize in such a situation, though, and we also have every right to do so and believe it is the right thing in doing so.

[Edited on 12.24.2010 7:50 PM PST]

  • 12.24.2010 7:50 PM PDT

I do not fear death, in view of the fact that I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it. ~ Mark Twain

Posted by: CB Visco
Posted by: XII CIUTCH IIX
You guys put too much stress on subjectivity, but maybe some things are just wrong and right, and whether you pretend it's subjective or not, the guy who thought the holocaust was right was wrong.

His opinion is wrong. Opinions can be wrong.

You continue to think in absolutes and this is the issue. When dealing with morality, there are no absolutes. There is never a "Blank" is wrong, or "blank" is right. There is only I believe that blank is wrong or right, or I think that it is wrong or right


It's rare, but there are. Everyone knows that opinions can't be right or wrong, but opinions are just the same as facts, just less solid, as everyone can call a fact wrong or right, but really, in a world where perception may not be reality, there is no such thing as fact, and then fact is just opinion, and you'd call a fact wrong, so an opinion can be too, just like fact.

Obviously it is just an opinion, it can never truly be right or wrong, but that is the same for everything (in reality) as nothing can ever truly be proven, so you have to draw the line when an opinion is just so obvious, that it is "correct".

It's not really correct, but you just know it is, and that is what I mean when I say that something is just wrong. Like eating meat for lust.

  • 12.24.2010 7:51 PM PDT

Its called the circle of life. Humans evolved as omnivores. Our tooth structure has evolved so that there are teeth for eating meat and teeth for eating vegetation. Animals that are strictly vegetarians generally have fermenting vats where food sits while microbes attack it, humans do not. Humans evolved to eat both meat and vegetations, are there is as much reason for a human to eat meat as a lion has reason to eat meat, to survive.

  • 12.24.2010 7:52 PM PDT
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I think the question to all of this should be:

How would we benefit from ceasing to eat meat?

  • 12.24.2010 7:52 PM PDT

Fortune favors the Bold

Posted by: XII CIUTCH IIX
Posted by: CB Visco
Posted by: XII CIUTCH IIX
You guys put too much stress on subjectivity, but maybe some things are just wrong and right, and whether you pretend it's subjective or not, the guy who thought the holocaust was right was wrong.

His opinion is wrong. Opinions can be wrong.

You continue to think in absolutes and this is the issue. When dealing with morality, there are no absolutes. There is never a "Blank" is wrong, or "blank" is right. There is only I believe that blank is wrong or right, or I think that it is wrong or right


It's rare, but there are. Everyone knows that opinions can't be right or wrong, but opinions are just the same as facts, just less solid, as everyone can call a fact wrong or right, but really, in a world where perception may not be reality, there is no such thing as fact, and then fact is just opinion, and you'd call a fact wrong, so an opinion can be too, just like fact.

Obviously it is just an opinion, it can never truly be right or wrong, but that is the same for everything (in reality) as nothing can ever truly be proven, so you have to draw the line when an opinion is just so obvious, that it is "correct".

It's not really correct, but you just know it is, and that is what I mean when I say that something is just wrong. Like eating meat for lust.

Im sorry, I only got through half of your post. Opinions are not facts.

  • 12.24.2010 7:53 PM PDT

I do not fear death, in view of the fact that I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it. ~ Mark Twain

Posted by: Pathetic Meat
I think the question to all of this should be:

How would we benefit from ceasing to eat meat?


How would we benefit from helping third world countries out of their poverty. We wouldn't, they'd take a share of our wealth, but they would, and it's the same concept.

  • 12.24.2010 7:53 PM PDT
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No one shuold take the OP seriously if he thinks that a fact is the same as opinion.

Fact: We have canine teeth;
Fact: Canine teeth are for breaking apart meat:
Fact: we have bicuspids, etc...
Fact: above mentioned teeth are for breaking apart plant matter
Fact: Our system can handle both
Opinon: Eatingmeat/plants is bad.

How are any of my facts opinions.

  • 12.24.2010 7:54 PM PDT
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Posted by: XII CIUTCH IIX

It's rare, but there are. Everyone knows that opinions can't be right or wrong, but opinions are just the same as facts, just less solid, as everyone can call a fact wrong or right, but really, in a world where perception may not be reality, there is no such thing as fact, and then fact is just opinion, and you'd call a fact wrong, so an opinion can be too, just like fact.

Obviously it is just an opinion, it can never truly be right or wrong, but that is the same for everything (in reality) as nothing can ever truly be proven, so you have to draw the line when an opinion is just so obvious, that it is "correct".

It's not really correct, but you just know it is, and that is what I mean when I say that something is just wrong. Like eating meat for lust.

It is a correct statement that nothing be proven absolutely even facts (mathematics aside). But the difference being is that facts are supported by overwhelming evidence so much so that it would be perverse to deny them. But with opinions are solely based on ones' subjective view on what they think is right or wrong and not objective evidence.

That is the difference between facts and opinions.

This is why I was previously trying to argue from an objective perspective since it is a fact that we are omnivores it is in fact correct for us to eat meat and plants and is therefore right. This is the only way one could actually argue this since using any other definitions of right and wrong would be subjective and thus useless in an argument.

[Edited on 12.24.2010 7:59 PM PST]

  • 12.24.2010 7:54 PM PDT

I do not fear death, in view of the fact that I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it. ~ Mark Twain

Posted by: CB Visco
Posted by: XII CIUTCH IIX
Posted by: CB Visco
Posted by: XII CIUTCH IIX
You guys put too much stress on subjectivity, but maybe some things are just wrong and right, and whether you pretend it's subjective or not, the guy who thought the holocaust was right was wrong.

His opinion is wrong. Opinions can be wrong.

You continue to think in absolutes and this is the issue. When dealing with morality, there are no absolutes. There is never a "Blank" is wrong, or "blank" is right. There is only I believe that blank is wrong or right, or I think that it is wrong or right


It's rare, but there are. Everyone knows that opinions can't be right or wrong, but opinions are just the same as facts, just less solid, as everyone can call a fact wrong or right, but really, in a world where perception may not be reality, there is no such thing as fact, and then fact is just opinion, and you'd call a fact wrong, so an opinion can be too, just like fact.

Obviously it is just an opinion, it can never truly be right or wrong, but that is the same for everything (in reality) as nothing can ever truly be proven, so you have to draw the line when an opinion is just so obvious, that it is "correct".

It's not really correct, but you just know it is, and that is what I mean when I say that something is just wrong. Like eating meat for lust.

Im sorry, I only got through half of your post. Opinions are not facts.


No, but facts are opinions.

  • 12.24.2010 7:54 PM PDT

Fortune favors the Bold

This guy is a troll, leave him alone

  • 12.24.2010 7:55 PM PDT
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Posted by: XII CIUTCH IIX
Posted by: Pathetic Meat
I think the question to all of this should be:

How would we benefit from ceasing to eat meat?


How would we benefit from helping third world countries out of their poverty. We wouldn't, they'd take a share of our wealth, but they would, and it's the same concept.


Concept not the same. Sympathy exists within both parties, however people living in third world countries are humans. We are growing as humans, consuming meat will always be in the equation until some far-fetched event such as those shown in Dead Rising happen.

  • 12.24.2010 7:56 PM PDT
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It seems to me that I have missed the majority of the arguments of meat eaters vs. vegetarian eaters. >.>

Anyway this is my take in the reasons why I have considered being a vegetarian, and at times a vegan.

Studies have shown that a vegetarian diet is indeed healthier than a meat eating one. It has been proven through extended studies over and over again. There is statistical correlation between decreased meat eating and increased health benefits. Health benefits such as lower high blood pressure, diabetes, obesity, health diseases, cancers, kidney failures, and osteoporosis. As a result, vegetarians tend to live longer and have higher IQs. Health correlates to IQ.

There is also an argument that vegetarians don't get enough protein. This is absolutely untrue. We actually take in too much protein to begin with. Protein for vegetarians is only an issue in third world countries where there is a lack of variety in staple foods.

The only issue with a vegetarian diet is, I think, an average person doesn't know how to exactly balance their vegetarian diet to include the right amount of protein, carbs, and vitamins. It takes extensive dedication and research to be a vegetarian.

  • 12.24.2010 7:56 PM PDT

I'd like to be half-man half-tree in an octopus' garden in the shade.

Posted by: XII CIUTCH IIX
No, but facts are opinions.

Nearly 30 pages of trolling. Nice job, OP.

  • 12.24.2010 7:57 PM PDT

.


Posted by: CB Visco
Posted by: XII CIUTCH IIX
Posted by: CB Visco
Posted by: XII CIUTCH IIX
You guys put too much stress on subjectivity, but maybe some things are just wrong and right, and whether you pretend it's subjective or not, the guy who thought the holocaust was right was wrong.

His opinion is wrong. Opinions can be wrong.

You continue to think in absolutes and this is the issue. When dealing with morality, there are no absolutes. There is never a "Blank" is wrong, or "blank" is right. There is only I believe that blank is wrong or right, or I think that it is wrong or right


It's rare, but there are. Everyone knows that opinions can't be right or wrong, but opinions are just the same as facts, just less solid, as everyone can call a fact wrong or right, but really, in a world where perception may not be reality, there is no such thing as fact, and then fact is just opinion, and you'd call a fact wrong, so an opinion can be too, just like fact.

Obviously it is just an opinion, it can never truly be right or wrong, but that is the same for everything (in reality) as nothing can ever truly be proven, so you have to draw the line when an opinion is just so obvious, that it is "correct".

It's not really correct, but you just know it is, and that is what I mean when I say that something is just wrong. Like eating meat for lust.

Im sorry, I only got through half of your post. Opinions are not facts.


He makes a very good point, actually.

Ultimately opinions are not facts. Ultimately opinions and facts don't exist. Relatively, however, the possibilities are only limited to what one can believe. And what one believes will yield very specific consequences 'good', 'bad', or a mix of both.

  • 12.24.2010 7:57 PM PDT

I do not fear death, in view of the fact that I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it. ~ Mark Twain

Posted by: Gman5434
Posted by: XII CIUTCH IIX

It's rare, but there are. Everyone knows that opinions can't be right or wrong, but opinions are just the same as facts, just less solid, as everyone can call a fact wrong or right, but really, in a world where perception may not be reality, there is no such thing as fact, and then fact is just opinion, and you'd call a fact wrong, so an opinion can be too, just like fact.

Obviously it is just an opinion, it can never truly be right or wrong, but that is the same for everything (in reality) as nothing can ever truly be proven, so you have to draw the line when an opinion is just so obvious, that it is "correct".

It's not really correct, but you just know it is, and that is what I mean when I say that something is just wrong. Like eating meat for lust.

It is a correct statement that nothing be proven absolutely even facts (mathematics aside). But the difference being is that those facts are supported by overwhelming evidence so much so that it would be perverse to deny them. But with opinions are solely based on ones' view on what they think is right or wrong and not objective evidence.

That is the difference between facts and opinions.


So when something is so obviously wrong (like the holocaust) it becomes fact then? No, it's still just an opinion, because we only call them facts, because society would cease to function properly if we treated them as opinions (and other things like this, the perception is not reality theory), just as they actually are.

So in a case when there is an overwhelming amount of obvious pointing to something being wrong, does it become fact then?

  • 12.24.2010 7:57 PM PDT


Posted by: XII CIUTCH IIX
Posted by: CB Visco
Posted by: XII CIUTCH IIX
Posted by: CB Visco
Posted by: XII CIUTCH IIX
You guys put too much stress on subjectivity, but maybe some things are just wrong and right, and whether you pretend it's subjective or not, the guy who thought the holocaust was right was wrong.

His opinion is wrong. Opinions can be wrong.

You continue to think in absolutes and this is the issue. When dealing with morality, there are no absolutes. There is never a "Blank" is wrong, or "blank" is right. There is only I believe that blank is wrong or right, or I think that it is wrong or right


It's rare, but there are. Everyone knows that opinions can't be right or wrong, but opinions are just the same as facts, just less solid, as everyone can call a fact wrong or right, but really, in a world where perception may not be reality, there is no such thing as fact, and then fact is just opinion, and you'd call a fact wrong, so an opinion can be too, just like fact.

Obviously it is just an opinion, it can never truly be right or wrong, but that is the same for everything (in reality) as nothing can ever truly be proven, so you have to draw the line when an opinion is just so obvious, that it is "correct".

It's not really correct, but you just know it is, and that is what I mean when I say that something is just wrong. Like eating meat for lust.

Im sorry, I only got through half of your post. Opinions are not facts.


No, but facts are opinions.
I lol'd.

  • 12.24.2010 7:57 PM PDT
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Posted by: XII CIUTCH IIX


No, but facts are opinions.


Fact: We have canine teeth
Fact: 2+2=4
Fact: Red cars are red
Fact: The sky is opposite the ground
Fact: Water is wet.

Need I list more, or do you relaize that facts are NOT opinions?

  • 12.24.2010 7:58 PM PDT
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Posted by: CB Visco
This guy is a troll, leave him alone


Serious individual turned troll or troll from the start? Probably had his arguments debunked so many times that his head exploded.

Posted by: XII CIUTCH IIX
Posted by: Pathetic Meat
I think the question to all of this should be:

How would we benefit from ceasing to eat meat?


How would we benefit from helping third world countries out of their poverty. We wouldn't, they'd take a share of our wealth, but they would, and it's the same concept.


Concept not the same. Sympathy exists within both parties, however people living in third world countries are humans. We are growing as humans, consuming meat will always be in the equation until some far-fetched event such as those shown in Dead Rising happen.

[Edited on 12.24.2010 7:59 PM PST]

  • 12.24.2010 7:58 PM PDT

I do not fear death, in view of the fact that I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it. ~ Mark Twain

Posted by: AngrydoG

I have to stop you there, facts are statements which cannot be proven other wise. For example Dogs are dogs. Cats are cats. Some people may think cats are dogs but that is their opinion, not what has been proven.


It all comes down to the question, "Is perception reality?" This can never be proven, ever, therefore nothing can ever be proven.

  • 12.24.2010 7:59 PM PDT

Fortune favors the Bold

Posted by: XII CIUTCH IIX
Posted by: AngrydoG

I have to stop you there, facts are statements which cannot be proven other wise. For example Dogs are dogs. Cats are cats. Some people may think cats are dogs but that is their opinion, not what has been proven.


It all comes down to the question, "Is perception reality?" This can never be proven, ever, therefore nothing can ever be proven.

So you are disproving yourself? So what is the point of this thread?

  • 12.24.2010 8:00 PM PDT
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God?

Religion does not provide a sense of morality, but an obedience to authority.

Join Secular Sevens - A group for atheists, free thinkers, skeptics or theists looking for a good debate.

Posted by: XII CIUTCH IIX

So when something is so obviously wrong (like the holocaust) it becomes fact then? No, it's still just an opinion, because we only call them facts, because society would cease to function properly if we treated them as opinions (and other things like this, the perception is not reality theory), just as they actually are.

So in a case when there is an overwhelming amount of obvious pointing to something being wrong, does it become fact then?

You can't have evidence whether something is morally right or wrong since your view on whether something is right or wrong is subjective.

The Holocaust is not obviously wrong, it can be viewed as right or wrong depending on your perspective.

Example:

This man brings up a great example of how one can view war (e.g. WWII) as 'right'. Let's says that one views that the technology gained through war (wars can spur technological growth and inventions) is greater than the lives lost during the war since the technology gained will forever help future generations and will thus last longer than the temporal lives of the ones that died.

Again the above is a subjective view it isn't any better than someone that values a human over technological gain.

[Edited on 12.24.2010 8:02 PM PST]

  • 12.24.2010 8:01 PM PDT

I do not fear death, in view of the fact that I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it. ~ Mark Twain

You guys call me high and mighty. But you refuse to look far enough to see that "Perception is not necessarily reality".

Because you ignore this, assuming that green is green and etc, then you have all completely missed the point of my argument.

"Guys, 2 + 2 is obviously 4, I'm obviously sane". How do know?

  • 12.24.2010 8:01 PM PDT