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Subject: About the karma system...

Am I one of the few who think that its useless? What would a high karma rating do? And wouldn't people find someway to abuse it?

I like the forums as they are now, and I personally don't care about the search feature, as all of the special threads get a nice spot in my favorites.

Your opinions? Oh, and if someone could explain the benefits of karma, that'd be great too (B.net is the only forum I go to, so yeah)

  • 11.26.2005 11:07 PM PDT
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Well, we don't know the details of the rewards for good karma. But we do know that there is a whiteboard full of potential rewards for good karma. We know that users won't be able to see their karma. It's just a reward system. Not prestige or anything like that. So, hopefully it won't get abused so much. And I have faith in Achronos's ability to make it as abuse-proof as humanly possible. He won't put it out till it's ready.

I won't really use the search feature either. The main thing I look forward to about it is having people stop making threads asking for them.

  • 11.26.2005 11:19 PM PDT

I don't exactly know how much you guys know about the karma system, but from what I've seen, some of the rewards are definetly worth getting.

The system has a lot of potential, I can't wait to see how it plays out.

As for abuse of the karma system, I'm pretty sure that it should work in ways that members wont be able to take advantage of, and there are always us moderators if things get out of hand.

[Edited on 11/26/2005]

  • 11.26.2005 11:33 PM PDT

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A karma system that is easily abused is exactly what Bungie.net would never have. That is also why we don't currently have one, because making one that isn't could be tough. If a karma system is ever implemented into Bungie.net, Achronos and the web team are going to put in a lot of thought and effort to make sure that it works and that it isn't easily abused, and doesn't cause problems.

A possible way to do this is to perhaps only allow moderators to give karma points. Or, perhaps people are only allowed to give a certain number of karma points per day, or per week, etc. There a few things like this that could be done to make a karma system more effective and less easily abused, but the ideal one is a karma system that maximizes both. One such system likely hasn't been devised yet (or is still currently being devised), and therefore, Bungie.net currently stands without a karma system.

Having a karma system can also create more problems. People who get a lot of points may be prone to elitism. Maybe then, if only the moderators can give out points, only people who won't be prone to elitism will get high karmas. But alas, the number of members is exponentially higher than the number of moderators, so this might make it painfully difficult to earn karma points at all. As you can see, a solution to one problem can often bring up another.

A karma system can have its advantages and disadvantages, but in this case it seems that most advantages have a disadvantage counterpart. Only if Achronos can devise (or is devising) a system that maximizes the advantages and minimizes the disadvantages will Bungie.net ever see a karma system.


So, with all that in mind, the best example of a karma system that I can think of, would work something like this:

* Initially, only moderators can give out points.
* Only once a user is past a certain number of points can he potentially gain the ability to give points.
* Of the people who are past this number of points, only those approved by two or more moderators can then actually have the ability to give out points.
* Any member who is not a moderator can only give out a limited number of karma points per week.
* Only moderators can see any individual's number of points.

Of course, any karma system at all would likely be quite difficult, technically, to implement into Bungie.net. So even if the web team has devised the ultimate karma system, we'll probably be waiting a while before we get it!

[Edited on 11/26/2005]

  • 11.26.2005 11:45 PM PDT
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Could someone please explain a little better what the karma system is? I am not sure I full understand it...

  • 11.27.2005 12:15 AM PDT
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i've got a feeling alot of our local septagonians will be the ones with high karma

  • 11.27.2005 2:42 AM PDT
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Posted by: save her soul
i've got a feeling alot of our local septagonians will be the ones with high karma


I have a feeling the Flood will become that bottomless pit of negative karma, especially during those rap debates. Heh.

I like RvB's system where you get 20 karma points to start with and once you've used them, theyre gone until someone gives you positive karma, or until you get your 1 extra karma point a week. The really brilliant bit is, even if it's a negatve karma point you gave, you still use one of your points up so that idiots can't just go around -5'ing everything. You gain karma levels like in an RPG, it's not 1 karma point = 1 karma level, each karma point is worth a certain amount of XP.

You can only make a topic once you are at level +20 and can only make a reply to a topic if you are at level +1 or above, this means all the 1 day and 2 day old members who come on, post a stupid question like "When i halo 3 coming out you n00o0bs!!" and then never come back, are non-existant, because you have to have built up your friends list and gained some karma before you can use the forums. It stops lots of abuse and if brought here, i think it would make the mods' jobs much easier

  • 11.27.2005 4:37 AM PDT
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Read about the Forgotten Spartan I Program
Butane: To protect the world from devastation!
sir_brilliant: To unite all people within our nation!
Rainman89: To denounce the evils of truth and love!
sir_brilliant: To extend out reach to the stars above!
SpaceGhostFlyer: Jessie!
Butane: James!
sir_brilliant: Team Rocket blasting off at the speed of light
Butane: Surrender now or prepare to fight
sir_brilliant: Meowth, that's right!

BUt that is not fair to newer members, they have a right to post after one day of examinig the rules.

  • 11.27.2005 4:45 AM PDT
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Do they? The average post by a 1 day old member will usually be a question that, to an average 3-month member, is blatantly obvious, but with maybe just 1 or 2 days of looking and learning, they will actually get all their answers and be able to join in conversations properly without being flamed all the time, such as just happened in the underground.

  • 11.27.2005 4:55 AM PDT
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Uh, guys? Has a karma system been announced or something?

  • 11.27.2005 6:24 AM PDT
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Read about the Forgotten Spartan I Program
Butane: To protect the world from devastation!
sir_brilliant: To unite all people within our nation!
Rainman89: To denounce the evils of truth and love!
sir_brilliant: To extend out reach to the stars above!
SpaceGhostFlyer: Jessie!
Butane: James!
sir_brilliant: Team Rocket blasting off at the speed of light
Butane: Surrender now or prepare to fight
sir_brilliant: Meowth, that's right!

no, but a lot of people (not me) want one

  • 11.27.2005 6:29 AM PDT

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Posted by: buffalo wing
Uh, guys? Has a karma system been announced or something?

No, but there are several proposals up for one right now. (As Kilroy mentioned, Achronos has said he has a whiteboard of brainstorm ideas up.)

Personally I'm hoping for a system that's as automated as possible to avoid cliquing, boosting, coverage gaps, accusations of bias, and all the other sins of human-administered karma systems. (And to avoid adding yet more work to my pile, so that may be a somewhat-biased opinion.)

-- Steve'd love to see the members who really contribute to the community get some more tangible benefit than just a hearty thanks. They've earned it.

  • 11.27.2005 6:48 AM PDT
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The Kharma system works fine on Red versus Blue.

  • 11.27.2005 7:22 AM PDT
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There's a lot of good info and brainstorming in this thread, and I wanted to add something I heard Achronos say. The Karma system would not only evaluate you as a Bungie.net Forum-Poster. Because your Bungie.net login is also linked to your .Net Passport, and also linked to your gamertag (if you link it), it can also evaluate you there. Maybe you could get negative karma here for cheating.

Actually that's taking his words and stretching them. All I remember him saying was something like "The karma system wouldn't just be about forum posts. It would rate you as a user in general."

The second thing is that he said it would be mostly automatic meaning users probably wouldn't be able to give karma out to each other.

I compiled a list of Achronos quotes on the karma system somewhere, let me go find it...

Posted by: Excalibur
Posted by: Kilroy
The way I understood it, I can give you karma. I just won't be able to see anyones karma levels.

Alright, I wasn't able to check bungie.net yesterday, so here's my explanation. I do believe that both of us are basing our information solely on what was said by Achronos in this thread. Let me quote him a couple times:

Posted by: Achronos
It isn't supposed to allow you to judge someone else (hence why you don't get to see the user's rating).

I interpret this as saying you won't be able to give me karma, if you see it otherwise, enlighten me.



Posted by: Achronos
...after we get the math the way we want it though, which is going to be hard. This system is a ways off...

Posted by: Achronos
Nobody said a mostly automatic system is easy. But that's why we have a very specific implementation plan.

Both of those quotes pretty much tell us that it will be mainly automated (if it exists!). I'll take this a step further and guess that if karma can be 'distributed' by a person, it'll only be by the bungie.net team.

Posted by: Achronos
The good news is that we aren't in a rush to implement it, and are fully capable of simply not turning it on, or throwing it away if we're not satisified with it. So, don't worry about it.

Always remember this. Don't expect the karma system to come any time soon if it comes at all.


Oh, and...


Posted by: Achronos
I have an entire whiteboard filed with "special" things we can give people who earn it.


Yay!

  • 11.27.2005 7:32 AM PDT
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Huh... I don't see what the big fuss is about. Karma to put it in basic terms, is based on character. Negitive= BAD. Positive= GOOD. It's just an easy way to tell who is an @$$ hole and who is a good little boy. As for adding things... I'm pretty sure Bungie wouldn't just put somthing in to rot. So remember Be good little boyz and girlz or flood infested Santa will eat you =).

  • 11.28.2005 12:19 AM PDT

*Sgt

Posted by: buffalo wing
Uh, guys? Has a karma system been announced or something?


Oh ok, I read through the whole post, but that was what I was thinking :p

[Edited on 11/28/2005]

  • 11.28.2005 5:55 AM PDT
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I like the idea that only mods can give karma points only because it would lead to less abuse and more reward.

  • 11.28.2005 6:57 AM PDT

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Posted by: Rainman89
BUt that is not fair to newer members, they have a right to post after one day of examinig the rules.


Who ever said that this would not be taken into account?

  • 11.28.2005 7:02 AM PDT
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Posted by: Gods Prophet
Posted by: Rainman89
BUt that is not fair to newer members, they have a right to post after one day of examinig the rules.


Who ever said that this would not be taken into account?


Point taken. Every member would be able to use it, right? If everyone can't use it then why have a karma system...

  • 11.28.2005 7:08 AM PDT
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With reference to your fear of farming of karma, i like RvB's system where any mod, sponsor or staff member can see anyone's karma history, both recieving and giving, so it is exceedingly easy to tell if people have been farming karma, thus karma farming and trading has been practically eradicated, but obviously you get some fools who still do it, only to find themselves banned.

BUT, one of the differences between RvB and here is that RvB has probably 10x the number of moderators that we do here, yet we have probably 10x the number of members, so to keep such a system practical, i think an increase in the number of moderators would be a definite must, even if all it did was reduce the workload of the current mods.

If Achronos felt uncomfortable doing this, perhaps another alternative is to create a level above member but below Ninja, so not the powers to blacklist, but perhaps those to lock or move threads and flag up other users for the Ninjas' attention, for such offences as Karma Farming.

See, it all works out perfick.

  • 11.28.2005 10:48 AM PDT
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I like the idea of a karma system, it will show who is good and who is bad. I just hope it not controled by the members..then its gonna be bad. Only the mods should be able to give out points.

[Edited on 11/28/2005]

  • 11.28.2005 12:24 PM PDT

With reference to your fear of farming of karma, i like RvB's system where any mod, sponsor or staff member can see anyone's karma history, both recieving and giving, so it is exceedingly easy to tell if people have been farming karma, thus karma farming and trading has been practically eradicated, but obviously you get some fools who still do it, only to find themselves banned.
I doubt we'd trust members to self-administer a karma system.

There will be very little, if any, human interaction with it.

  • 11.28.2005 2:00 PM PDT
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Posted by: elmicker
With reference to your fear of farming of karma, i like RvB's system where any mod, sponsor or staff member can see anyone's karma history, both recieving and giving, so it is exceedingly easy to tell if people have been farming karma, thus karma farming and trading has been practically eradicated, but obviously you get some fools who still do it, only to find themselves banned.

BUT, one of the differences between RvB and here is that RvB has probably 10x the number of moderators that we do here, yet we have probably 10x the number of members, so to keep such a system practical, i think an increase in the number of moderators would be a definite must, even if all it did was reduce the workload of the current mods.

If Achronos felt uncomfortable doing this, perhaps another alternative is to create a level above member but below Ninja, so not the powers to blacklist, but perhaps those to lock or move threads and flag up other users for the Ninjas' attention, for such offences as Karma Farming.

See, it all works out perfick.


I could see this happening. But, personally, I think Achronos has his eye on a lot of members that could potentially be moderators. So, I'm sure he could find quite a few people to give modship too, should the need arise.

The thing I want about the karma system is the rewards. I think I contribute here. Not as much as some, but more than a lot. I would love a custom avie. But, I can't get one, because I have no artistic talent, whatsoever. So theme building is out of the question. Also, a private forum for people with X amount of karma would be nice.

  • 11.28.2005 2:33 PM PDT

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