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Subject: How do human weapons fire in vacuum?

Ignorance is the gun pointed at the head of humanity.

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  • 01.03.2011 8:04 PM PDT

Yes... I can dodge ducks... and slow moving bullets.

Uhmmm, dude, bullets definitely do not need a medium to travel in

  • 01.03.2011 8:07 PM PDT
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“To say more would spoil be it’s overall its a game that needs to be played.” - Aristotle

Posted by: ken158
I thought that bullets need atmosphere to travel and hit a target.

Where did you get that assumption? And I'm not insulting, I'm just curious.

This subject isn't my forte, but so far as I remember from what I cared to pay attention to, the only things that need atmosphere to travel in are items transmitted by waves, with the exception of the electromagnetic spectrum. We're talkin' sound, basically.

Projectiles might be less effective, because the combustion rate from each individual bullet-fire would quickly be dissipated by vacuum, but the only real problem I see with that is the question of if combustion-based weaponry could fire at all in vacuum. No oxygen, no boom, unless they use compressed gas. Which would still negate the full ability of the weapon, y'understand.

Anything physical, touchable, can travel in vacuum. If the gun could fire in the first place, the bullet can reach its target. Although aiming would be a piece of hell, what with spin rate from the gun firing and the ease of changing velocity and direction in a vacuum. Gawd, it'd be horrendous.

[Edited on 01.03.2011 8:11 PM PST]

  • 01.03.2011 8:11 PM PDT

Actually they can. They'd probably work better due to no atmospheric pressure.

  • 01.03.2011 8:12 PM PDT
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“To say more would spoil be it’s overall its a game that needs to be played.” - Aristotle

Posted by: ken158
I thought the projectile would just fall out of the barrel of the weapon...

wut

No, force still works in space. In fact, sans friction (which 95%+ of space at least, s'far as we know (dark matter/dark energy might throw a wrench in that statistic, damn new findings...)), most firearms would work for a longer duration. Velocity at initial firing is the only thing that would take a hit, but it should still go fast enough to kill, with CO2 firing. I dunno about explosives, potentially not.

[Edited on 01.04.2011 12:29 PM PST]

  • 01.03.2011 8:26 PM PDT

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The combustion rate would immediately die once the bullet has left the barrel, but even with weapons on the ground today the projectiles accelerate the most within the barrel as the combustion seeks to be released.

In space it would actually move faster as it would have no resistance from air as it traveled out of the barrel and through space.

So yeah.

  • 01.03.2011 8:30 PM PDT

That's not even close to the reason that a modern gun wouldn't fire in space... Look it up.

Also: I think the UNSC designs their stuff to work in space, seeing as how they operate in it.

  • 01.03.2011 8:37 PM PDT

This is profile number 4

actually been a member of Bungie.net since March-April 2004

... I have a tendency to lose my passwords...

You can actually fire a modern projectile weapon in space. In fact the Soviets even mounted a machine gun on one of their space stations.

  • 01.03.2011 9:00 PM PDT

Posted by: Terminus
You can actually fire a modern projectile weapon in space. In fact the Soviets even mounted a machine gun on one of their space stations.



I can see it now

"Oh look the Hubble Telescope"
*Soviet Astronaut opens fire on telescope*
*Hubble pulls out a giant shotgun and shoots the Soviet space station*

  • 01.03.2011 9:26 PM PDT

Please don't hype for games...
They'll just fall short of your expectations and you'll complain for months.

Posted by: lolcopter111
Posted by: Terminus
You can actually fire a modern projectile weapon in space. In fact the Soviets even mounted a machine gun on one of their space stations.



I can see it now

"Oh look the Hubble Telescope"
*Soviet Astronaut opens fire on telescope*
*Hubble pulls out a giant shotgun and shoots the Soviet space station*


Win!

  • 01.03.2011 9:30 PM PDT

We believe that the universe is unbounded: this is not the same as infinite: the 2-D surface of a sphere, wrapped around a 3rd dimension, has a finite size, but has no end. If you start off in a given direction on the surface of a sphere, you could return to your start point without having to turn around -- you simply go all the way around. But wouldn't that mean the universe has an escape velocity like the earth?

Posted by: Lord Snakie
Posted by: ken158
I thought that bullets need atmosphere to travel and hit a target.

Where did you get that assumption? And I'm not insulting, I'm just curious.

This subject isn't my forte, but so far as I remember from what I cared to pay attention to, the only things that need atmosphere to travel in are items transmitted by waves, with the exception of the electromagnetic spectrum. We're talkin' sound, basically.


Any mechanical wave requires a medium (Sound). Any Vacuum wave does no. (light) Properties also count, like how Sound is longitudinal, where oscillations are at the same direction as the energy transference, and Electromagnetic/Vacuum Waves are transverse, where oscillations are at right angles to the direction of energy transference.

We could go into the equations, and go indepth as to why only EM/Vacuum Transvert Waves are the only ones that do not require mediums, but Im just here to expand on this mans knowledge of waves.

~B2

  • 01.03.2011 9:58 PM PDT

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"Ignorance is a plague."

Close, but the plague killed those infected with it, and the ignorant are still alive.
I wish ignorance was a plague.

The thing that I always wonder about is explosions in space.

When a vehicle is destroyed and explodes, there would be nothing to stop fragment from continuing through space at extremely high velocities.

  • 01.03.2011 10:39 PM PDT

Space is a vacuum, which means that once something starts moving there is no friction to stop it. It will literally keep going forever until it hits something.

Pretty much the opposite of what you described, actually.

Take a look at this if you're still confused:

Newton's Law in Space

  • 01.03.2011 11:27 PM PDT

On hiding dead bodies:
Posted by: Psuedo
Posted by: teh Chaz
Inside another dead body. It's the last place they'll look
A corpse within a corpse.
CORPSEPTION.
Win.

Posted by: spartanman14
Actually they can. They'd probably work better due to no atmospheric pressure.
I thought this until reading Snakie's first post.

Now I realise in space, there is no oxygen to combust the propellant, which means the weapon would misfire every single round. The pin would strike the primer, but the primer would not detonate.
To function, either the propellant itself must contain oxygen to combust, or the firing mechanism is completely sealed. In the event of the latter, it would only be able to fire one round, and then would no longer fire for the above reason.

You are correct on if you could fire a kinetic weapon in space, it would have theoretically infinite range and a much higher constant velocity.

  • 01.03.2011 11:32 PM PDT

This is profile number 4

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Posted by: JDYeash937 MkII
Posted by: spartanman14
Actually they can. They'd probably work better due to no atmospheric pressure.
I thought this until reading Snakie's first post.

Now I realise in space, there is no oxygen to combust the propellant, which means the weapon would misfire every single round. The pin would strike the primer, but the primer would not detonate.
To function, either the propellant itself must contain oxygen to combust, or the firing mechanism is completely sealed. In the event of the latter, it would only be able to fire one round, and then would no longer fire for the above reason.

You are correct on if you could fire a kinetic weapon in space, it would have theoretically infinite range and a much higher constant velocity.


I believe I read something about modern bullets having their own oxidizer so lacking an atmosphere doesn't matter.

  • 01.03.2011 11:36 PM PDT

On hiding dead bodies:
Posted by: Psuedo
Posted by: teh Chaz
Inside another dead body. It's the last place they'll look
A corpse within a corpse.
CORPSEPTION.
Win.

Posted by: Terminus
You can actually fire a modern projectile weapon in space. In fact the Soviets even mounted a machine gun on one of their space stations.

Yes, only if the firing mechanism itself is in a pressurised environment, surely. Or, as I mentioned, vacuum-enhanced ammunition with oxygen carrying cartridges.
Posted by: Terminus
I believe I read something about modern bullets having their own oxidizer so lacking an atmosphere doesn't matter.
Really? Oh very well then. In this case I have no reason to believe weapons should not function in space.
Given that the UNSC Marines are a space-faring force, it makes sense their weapon ammunition is enhanced for use in vacuum anyway.

[Edited on 01.03.2011 11:43 PM PST]

  • 01.03.2011 11:36 PM PDT

My Screenshots / My Group / Remember to follow the rules or you will get trapped in a box.

They don't. Even if they did by the year 2552 they problaly would have overcome that.

  • 01.04.2011 12:27 AM PDT

I am alpha, i am omega.

I am the last of the primes.

They use mini hyper novas to force the bullets forward. there end if thread lol.

  • 01.04.2011 1:02 AM PDT

Today iiiiis.... [insert day]

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Posted by: Lord Snakie
Posted by: ken158
I thought the projectile would just fall out of the barrel of the weapon...

wut

No, force still works in space. In fact, sans friction (which 95%+ of space at least, s'far as we know (dark matter/dark energy might throw a wrench in that statistic, damn new findings...), most firearms would work for a longer duration. Velocity at initial firing is the only thing that would take a hit, but it should still go fast enough to kill, with CO2 firing. I dunno about explosives, potentially not.


I would hardly call dark matter a 'finding'

still, yes force still works in space. Ever wondered how we got to the moon? ;)

  • 01.04.2011 2:24 AM PDT

"Wake me...when you need me."

Without oxygen there is no combustion. Without combustion there is no pressure in the barrel. Without pressure in the barrel, there is no muzzle velocity.

It would not work as it is. You have to have oxygen to burn gunpowder.

  • 01.04.2011 8:31 AM PDT

i can only count to jagermeister.

Theoretically the gun will fire. Modern bullets are sealed. That's why a Glock can fire underwater. There's enough oxygen inside the cartridge, but who knows what happens after the initial explosion?

I think we need to submit this to Mythbusters...

  • 01.04.2011 10:11 AM PDT

Trouble is the kinetic force would push the gun back with exactly the same force that the bullet has leaving the barrel.
Broken wrists all round.

  • 01.04.2011 10:24 AM PDT
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Posted by: Geordie P
Trouble is the kinetic force would push the gun back with exactly the same force that the bullet has leaving the barrel.
Broken wrists all round.


What? the gun would have the same amount of kick(recoil) as it does here on earth, so a 200Lb. Man would not be pushed back significantly by a 2oz. bullet even tho a 7.62mm slug puts out about 200 pounds of force, the force is divided up between the soldier and the slug (unless firing several rounds at once, then the push adds up, resulting in a "rocket man" effect)

The bullet would definitely leave the barrel, at roughly the same speeds and given that modern gunpowder has all the means for complete combustion , even in a vacuum the gun should still operate as intended.


Modern Gunpowder contains K2NO4, which oxidizes and allows the rest of the gunpowder to burn hotter, faster, and more completely resulting in dramatically less misfires.

however, depending on cartridges themselves (i'm assuming they stuck with the brass ones that we use today, in which it wouldn't be worth bringing up) it could be conceivable that they wouldn't be able to take the change in atmosphere and would simply pop apart (not explode but fall apart) when pressure is removed.

[Edited on 01.04.2011 10:56 AM PST]

  • 01.04.2011 10:54 AM PDT
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Bullets fire through a gas compressed chamber and are propelled by magnetic rails, grooves, and firing pins.

Since there is no air in space to slow the momentum of the bullets, they would actually shoot much faster and cause more damage.

[Edited on 01.04.2011 10:59 AM PST]

  • 01.04.2011 10:58 AM PDT

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