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Subject: How do human weapons fire in vacuum?

Posted by: spartanman14
Actually they can. They'd probably work better due to no atmospheric pressure.


It probably would fire, but I wonder how far it would actually travel, I guess it really depends on the dragforce that the projectile encounters.

  • 01.04.2011 10:59 AM PDT

guns would fire in a vacuum, you don't need atmospheric oxygen for a firearm to go off, since the propellant has its own oxidizer, even old school black powder had an oxidizer.

also the 'kinetic force' is the same as you would get down here, you aren't changing any of the fundemantal forces involved in propelling the projectile out of the barrel, its the same cartridge, same amount of propellant, same explosive force, so what makes you think you'd break your wrist?

they would also be more effective, with higher muzzle velocity due to the lack of aerodynamic drag, don't see how accuracy would be negatively affected either..

[Edited on 01.04.2011 11:03 AM PST]

  • 01.04.2011 11:02 AM PDT

You shouldn't be able to fire a standard ballistic weapon in space as it is fired by an explosion which is combustion which requires oxygen which isn't in a vacuum as it's a vacuum. However it could be fired if oxygen is some how injected/stored in the chamber or it was fired by compressed gas. Also the if you could get the gun to fire yes the bullet would travel futher as there are very little resisitive frictional forces in a vacuum but the bullet would still be affected by forces like gravity which could slow or accelerate the bullet. But just to some up gameplay more than science.

  • 01.04.2011 11:09 AM PDT

Posted by: ZClum
the gun would have the same amount of kick(recoil) as it does here on earth, so a 200Lb. Man would not be pushed back significantly by a 2oz. bullet even tho a 7.62mm slug puts out about 200 pounds of force, the force is divided up between the soldier and the slug (unless firing several rounds at once, then the push adds up, resulting in a "rocket man" effect)


Doesn't Keyes do something like this in Fall of Reach? He and a bunch of ODST's evacuate a ship by propelling themselves through the air with gunfire.

  • 01.04.2011 11:18 AM PDT

On hiding dead bodies:
Posted by: Psuedo
Posted by: teh Chaz
Inside another dead body. It's the last place they'll look
A corpse within a corpse.
CORPSEPTION.
Win.

Posted by: AfroWalrus9
Posted by: ZClum
the gun would have the same amount of kick(recoil) as it does here on earth, so a 200Lb. Man would not be pushed back significantly by a 2oz. bullet even tho a 7.62mm slug puts out about 200 pounds of force, the force is divided up between the soldier and the slug (unless firing several rounds at once, then the push adds up, resulting in a "rocket man" effect)


Doesn't Keyes do something like this in Fall of Reach? He and a bunch of ODST's evacuate a ship by propelling themselves through the air with gunfire.
Afro, you're right. Although it wasn't Fall of Reach, it was Cole Protocol.

ZClum, you've got this wrong. Because there are no forces to prevent the recoil, firing a weapon causes a drastic effect on a person holding it in space.
Also, Newton's Third Law states that "every action must have an equal and opposite reaction".
This means that the force with which the bullet leaves the barrel is equal to the force that the bullet exerts on the gun itself - recoil.

Recoil on earth is managed by gravity and footing, and being able to brace against the ground and also (to a degree) the air itself.
In space, there is nothing whatsoever to brace against. If a bullet has a momentum of 10kgm/s, then the person is going to be moved backwards by a momentum of 10kgm/s. This is only about 0.125m/s (just over a quarter mile per hour) on an average person, less if wearing any sort of equipment.
Firing at any kind of angle, or at any point above or below the exact centre of mass (or side-to-side from it either) would cause the soldier to go into a tumble upon firing.

[Edited on 01.04.2011 11:54 AM PST]

  • 01.04.2011 11:53 AM PDT
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  • Fabled Legendary Member

I understand nothing because my life is a conspiracy.

Dude, it's 500 years in the future. 500 years.

  • 01.04.2011 11:59 AM PDT

On hiding dead bodies:
Posted by: Psuedo
Posted by: teh Chaz
Inside another dead body. It's the last place they'll look
A corpse within a corpse.
CORPSEPTION.
Win.

And yet we are still using standard gunpowder-driven kinetic rifles. And wheeled vehicles. And MBTs that are somehow far slower than they are today, and much less well armed and armoured.

  • 01.04.2011 12:01 PM PDT
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“To say more would spoil be it’s overall its a game that needs to be played.” - Aristotle

Posted by: Mr Wunderbar
I would hardly call dark matter a 'finding'

Uhh... why? It, along with Dark Energy, could literally change the concept of everything. Ever. Forever.

  • 01.04.2011 12:30 PM PDT

RIP - The Rev: February 9, 1981 – December 28, 2009
RIP - Mitch Lucker: October 20, 1984 - November 1, 2012
RIP - Dimebag Darrell: August 20, 1966 – December 8, 2004
RIP - Ronny James Dio: July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010

Gunpowder. Requires the bolt to hit and then the bullet leaves. That requires no air, only a bolt to hit so the power ignites.

Am I right?

  • 01.04.2011 12:36 PM PDT

This is profile number 4

actually been a member of Bungie.net since March-April 2004

... I have a tendency to lose my passwords...

Posted by: Swiftkillswitch3
Gunpowder. Requires the bolt to hit and then the bullet leaves. That requires no air, only a bolt to hit so the power ignites.

Am I right?


You are correct. Foreign Oxygen need not apply.

  • 01.04.2011 12:51 PM PDT

RIP - The Rev: February 9, 1981 – December 28, 2009
RIP - Mitch Lucker: October 20, 1984 - November 1, 2012
RIP - Dimebag Darrell: August 20, 1966 – December 8, 2004
RIP - Ronny James Dio: July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010

Posted by: Terminus
Posted by: Swiftkillswitch3
Gunpowder. Requires the bolt to hit and then the bullet leaves. That requires no air, only a bolt to hit so the power ignites.

Am I right?


You are correct. Foreign Oxygen need not apply.


It wouldn't need anything, but the bolt to strike so the powder ignites. Boom.

Forgot a word.

[Edited on 01.04.2011 12:53 PM PST]

  • 01.04.2011 12:53 PM PDT

Gun powder is self-oxidizing.

/thread

  • 01.04.2011 1:26 PM PDT

Why hello there.

Microwave ovens are quite large.

WORT, WORT,WORT!

-NUMS!

You could shoot a gun in space easily, The powder is its own fuel and oxidizer, That why they can be fired underwater, And as for no atmosphere the bullet would keep its speed and energy forever until some other force slows it down.

  • 01.04.2011 1:32 PM PDT

So that's how it is. You all ought to know better than that.

Two words: Potassium Nitrate (KNO3)

This is an ingredient of gun powder and provides oxygen. Air can't enter the chamber of a gun. if it did, the gases would have a way to leak out that doesn't involve moving the bullet. Therefore, an oxidizer is used.

  • 01.04.2011 1:39 PM PDT
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  • Exalted Heroic Member

Posted by: JDYeash937 MkII
Posted by: Terminus
You can actually fire a modern projectile weapon in space. In fact the Soviets even mounted a machine gun on one of their space stations.

Yes, only if the firing mechanism itself is in a pressurised environment, surely. Or, as I mentioned, vacuum-enhanced ammunition with oxygen carrying cartridges.
Posted by: Terminus
I believe I read something about modern bullets having their own oxidizer so lacking an atmosphere doesn't matter.
Really? Oh very well then. In this case I have no reason to believe weapons should not function in space.
Given that the UNSC Marines are a space-faring force, it makes sense their weapon ammunition is enhanced for use in vacuum anyway.

The weapon that was mounted on the space station was recoil-operated. I don't know whether a gas-operated weapon would work in space or not.

  • 01.04.2011 1:44 PM PDT

In marathon, I think only the fusion pistol worked in vacuum...which makes sense, because human weapons use small explosions, if you will, to kick out rounds

  • 01.04.2011 2:35 PM PDT

i can only count to jagermeister.

Posted by: JDYeash937 MkII
Posted by: AfroWalrus9
Posted by: ZClum
the gun would have the same amount of kick(recoil) as it does here on earth, so a 200Lb. Man would not be pushed back significantly by a 2oz. bullet even tho a 7.62mm slug puts out about 200 pounds of force, the force is divided up between the soldier and the slug (unless firing several rounds at once, then the push adds up, resulting in a "rocket man" effect)


Doesn't Keyes do something like this in Fall of Reach? He and a bunch of ODST's evacuate a ship by propelling themselves through the air with gunfire.
Afro, you're right. Although it wasn't Fall of Reach, it was Cole Protocol.

ZClum, you've got this wrong. Because there are no forces to prevent the recoil, firing a weapon causes a drastic effect on a person holding it in space.
Also, Newton's Third Law states that "every action must have an equal and opposite reaction".
This means that the force with which the bullet leaves the barrel is equal to the force that the bullet exerts on the gun itself - recoil.

Recoil on earth is managed by gravity and footing, and being able to brace against the ground and also (to a degree) the air itself.
In space, there is nothing whatsoever to brace against. If a bullet has a momentum of 10kgm/s, then the person is going to be moved backwards by a momentum of 10kgm/s. This is only about 0.125m/s (just over a quarter mile per hour) on an average person, less if wearing any sort of equipment.
Firing at any kind of angle, or at any point above or below the exact centre of mass (or side-to-side from it either) would cause the soldier to go into a tumble upon firing.
The recoil would be only slightly more than here on earth. You're right that it would probably send you into a tumble, but the only thing creating more recoil would be a lack of air resistance.

This has been discussed on another forum somewhere I was reading... can't remember which. They stated that a gun seems to violate Newton's third law. A bullet hits a target with significantly more force than is experienced through recoil. The reason is time. The recoil you feel through a gun is only the force of the initial explosion. After that the bullet is constantly accelerating out and away from the gun, so you don't feel that force.

So recoil will be almost the same in space, it's just the environment that will cause a difference.

  • 01.05.2011 7:36 AM PDT

You and the person that replied are both correct. If you notice the weapons are cartridge (or case and slug) based ammo in the human weapons. When you load this type ammo it contains oxygen that will allow the propellant (aka - gun power) to burn and the weapon to fire. There is a draw back in low grav or zero grav to slug base weapons as the recoil will push the person that fires the weapon backwards. Back in the late 1960s NASA send out a quiz to the schools that was a list of items to choose from for a survival kit on the moon (you could only take 10 out of 20 items). No one chose the two .45 ACP or the life raft; which was 2 items NASA said you needed. Both being use to cover large distants as propulsion.

Oh, just as a side note. The .45 ACP is one of the few handguns that can kill you at close range underwater.

  • 01.05.2011 8:34 AM PDT

On hiding dead bodies:
Posted by: Psuedo
Posted by: teh Chaz
Inside another dead body. It's the last place they'll look
A corpse within a corpse.
CORPSEPTION.
Win.

Posted by: Painbow 6
The recoil would be only slightly more than here on earth. You're right that it would probably send you into a tumble, but the only thing creating more recoil would be a lack of air resistance.

This has been discussed on another forum somewhere I was reading... can't remember which. They stated that a gun seems to violate Newton's third law. A bullet hits a target with significantly more force than is experienced through recoil. The reason is time. The recoil you feel through a gun is only the force of the initial explosion. After that the bullet is constantly accelerating out and away from the gun, so you don't feel that force.

So recoil will be almost the same in space, it's just the environment that will cause a difference.
The Third Law won't have been violated, largely because it's presently impossible.
It may have recoil-damping techniques, some of the recoil force generated escapes via the open bolt cycle, or the round has some sort of second-stage to its flight.

This could be (unlikely) a rocket motor, which has been fitted to heavy artillery shells in the past, or alternatively, it could be an APFSDS round, where the separation of the sabots allows the round to accelerate in-flight.

  • 01.05.2011 9:44 AM PDT

Have you seen my mind anywhere? I seem to have lost it...

0x0 x0x 0x0 000 000 x0x 000
x0x 0x0 0x0 0xx 000 0x0 000
x0x x0x x00 0xx 0x0 x0x 0x0

I have seen you future

As multiple posters have already said, a firearm can fire in space, due to gunpowder containing it's own oxidizers.

The problem would be with sustained fire, because the oil that firearms are lubricated with would bead up, causing the gun to jam.

  • 01.05.2011 10:13 AM PDT

Yes, I'm a furry. And yes, I like men. So what?

They've never operated in vacuum - simply very thin upper atmosphere, hence the fact that there was still muzzle flash from their firearms.

  • 01.05.2011 10:33 AM PDT

They would fire just fine in vacuum, but I'm not sure about muzzle flashes. Actually, come to think of it, the pressure difference (and hence the power) might actually be greater than if fired in atmosphere.
A far bigger problem than oxygen are the extreme temperatures reached in space. I'd expect heat (in sunlight) or cold (in shade) would screw up the mechanics of a firearm far more badly and far more quickly than the vacuum or zero-g, unless the design could account for the change in temperature.

[Edited on 01.05.2011 10:52 AM PST]

  • 01.05.2011 10:51 AM PDT

Apparently, only a few people know basic Physics and Chemistry on this forum...

Guns work in space. ANY AND ALL EXPLOSIVES HAVE THEIR OWN OXIDIZER. That´s why they combust so fast it´s an explosion. The refire mechanism would work as well, no matter if it´s hard vacuum or not. Gas based refire taps off the pressurized firing gases BEFORE the bullet leaves the barrel and uses it to power the re-cocking and loading process for the next bullet.

Space is basically a vacuum, the atmosphere above 100 KM is negligible. Bullets thus have no air to push through and thus have INFINITE RANGE. Same with shrapnel. Newton´s second law: An object in motion stays in motion unless acted on by an outside force. In space that force is absent.

The temperature problem is also negligible. It´s not possible for space to heat up as there IS NOTHING TO HEAT UP. Only objects that are kept in the suns rays will heat up, so if you keep swapping it in and out of the suns rays it´ll be fine. Seeing that Halo is in the 26th century, they probably have insulation that counters those effects anyway.

Why WOULDN´T there be muzzle flashes!? THERE IS AN EXPLOSION COMING OUT OF THE BARREL FOR [insert expletive here]´S SAKE.

There, /thread.

[Edited on 01.05.2011 1:02 PM PST]

  • 01.05.2011 1:01 PM PDT

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