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Subject: How do human weapons fire in vacuum?

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I believe it is gas operated?

  • 01.05.2011 2:22 PM PDT

RIP - The Rev: February 9, 1981 – December 28, 2009
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Posted by: Blo0dRag3
Apparently, only a few people know basic Physics and Chemistry on this forum...

Guns work in space. ANY AND ALL EXPLOSIVES HAVE THEIR OWN OXIDIZER. That´s why they combust so fast it´s an explosion. The refire mechanism would work as well, no matter if it´s hard vacuum or not. Gas based refire taps off the pressurized firing gases BEFORE the bullet leaves the barrel and uses it to power the re-cocking and loading process for the next bullet.

Space is basically a vacuum, the atmosphere above 100 KM is negligible. Bullets thus have no air to push through and thus have INFINITE RANGE. Same with shrapnel. Newton´s second law: An object in motion stays in motion unless acted on by an outside force. In space that force is absent.

The temperature problem is also negligible. It´s not possible for space to heat up as there IS NOTHING TO HEAT UP. Only objects that are kept in the suns rays will heat up, so if you keep swapping it in and out of the suns rays it´ll be fine. Seeing that Halo is in the 26th century, they probably have insulation that counters those effects anyway.

Why WOULDN´T there be muzzle flashes!? THERE IS AN EXPLOSION COMING OUT OF THE BARREL FOR [insert expletive here]´S SAKE.

There, /thread.


Explained the best way of which I did but in more detail.

  • 01.05.2011 2:28 PM PDT

On hiding dead bodies:
Posted by: Psuedo
Posted by: teh Chaz
Inside another dead body. It's the last place they'll look
A corpse within a corpse.
CORPSEPTION.
Win.

Posted by: Cowgoesmoo
I believe it is gas operated?
Gas operation is where some of the propellant gas used to fire the round is tapped off near the end of the barrel and channelled back towards the bolt - it pushes it back, and cycles a new round. If the weapon can fire, the gas operation system can operate.

It doesn't physically use stored gas.

  • 01.05.2011 2:47 PM PDT

Also known as Entropy91
Black Water Ops representative.
See you on the battlefield.

A bullet does not need a medium to travel through. Whoever told you this is an idiot. However, oxygen does need to be present to ignite the powder. This can be explained by using a self oxidizing powder, similar to rocket fuel.

Another problem keeping a standard M16 (or most any other weapon for that matter) from working in space is the temperature extreme. High temperatures on the daylight side can cause the weapon to melt, and extreme cold temperatures on the dark side can cause the lubricants used to contract and freeze solid. This would cause a really bad jam after a few rounds.

Obviously, UNSC engineers designed lubricants (probably graphite based, with some kind of antifreeze agent) and base amterials (most likely ceramics or a titanium alloy) which are unaffected by the extreme temperatures.

  • 01.05.2011 3:04 PM PDT

i can only count to jagermeister.

Posted by: JDYeash937 MkII
Posted by: Painbow 6
The recoil would be only slightly more than here on earth. You're right that it would probably send you into a tumble, but the only thing creating more recoil would be a lack of air resistance.

This has been discussed on another forum somewhere I was reading... can't remember which. They stated that a gun seems to violate Newton's third law. A bullet hits a target with significantly more force than is experienced through recoil. The reason is time. The recoil you feel through a gun is only the force of the initial explosion. After that the bullet is constantly accelerating out and away from the gun, so you don't feel that force.

So recoil will be almost the same in space, it's just the environment that will cause a difference.
The Third Law won't have been violated, largely because it's presently impossible.
It may have recoil-damping techniques, some of the recoil force generated escapes via the open bolt cycle, or the round has some sort of second-stage to its flight.

This could be (unlikely) a rocket motor, which has been fitted to heavy artillery shells in the past, or alternatively, it could be an APFSDS round, where the separation of the sabots allows the round to accelerate in-flight.
That's what I said. Newton's third law can't be violated, it's a law of physics. This example only seems to violate the law of inertia.

If a bullet hits a target with enough force to rip through 1/4 inch steel, how come you don't feel that much force on your shoulder? Inertia states for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

The answer is time. The recoil you feel at your shoulder is only from the split second that the bullet explodes out of the shell. Then the bullet accelerates over time. Therefore, the recoil you feel in space will be near exactly the same as on earth. It will just affect you differently.

  • 01.06.2011 10:43 AM PDT

i can only count to jagermeister.

Posted by: R13 DeWolf
You and the person that replied are both correct. If you notice the weapons are cartridge (or case and slug) based ammo in the human weapons. When you load this type ammo it contains oxygen that will allow the propellant (aka - gun power) to burn and the weapon to fire. There is a draw back in low grav or zero grav to slug base weapons as the recoil will push the person that fires the weapon backwards. Back in the late 1960s NASA send out a quiz to the schools that was a list of items to choose from for a survival kit on the moon (you could only take 10 out of 20 items). No one chose the two .45 ACP or the life raft; which was 2 items NASA said you needed. Both being use to cover large distants as propulsion.

Oh, just as a side note. The .45 ACP is one of the few handguns that can kill you at close range underwater.
Interesting, I didn't know about that NASA thing. And just to clarify, .45 ACP is a type of ammunition. As far as I know Glocks (and imitations) are the only guns that can consistently fire underwater. I think probably any gun will fire once.

  • 01.06.2011 10:53 AM PDT

Current members of the Gnome Empire:
Fridge Gnome
Freezer Gnome
Blender Gnome
Oven Gnome
Da Chrome Gnome
Zomb1e Gnome

Yes they would still work, however you would fly back as fast as the bullet flies forward..

  • 01.06.2011 11:16 AM PDT

i can only count to jagermeister.

Posted by: Fridge Gnome
Yes they would still work, however you would fly back as fast as the bullet flies forward..

:(

Please read my posts. Thanks :)

[Edited on 01.06.2011 2:29 PM PST]

  • 01.06.2011 11:22 AM PDT

Posted by: Fridge Gnome
Yes they would still work, however you would fly back as fast as the bullet flies forward..


No, you would fly back with an equal amount of force, not at the same speed. It is Newton's third law and the same applies in atmosphere too, it's called recoil.

  • 01.06.2011 11:41 AM PDT

for the love of god, read the posts people have put on, explaining how a fire-arm can fire in a vacuum and stop giving the same 'they wont work because there is no oxygen..' stuff all the time. guns can fire in a vacuum, period..!

  • 01.06.2011 1:17 PM PDT

'life is a stare down with death himself'


Posted by: SilverBulitt82
It probably would fire, but I wonder how far it would actually travel, I guess it really depends on the dragforce that the projectile encounters.

what dragforce? there is no gravity or atmosphere in space.

  • 01.06.2011 1:23 PM PDT

You look unto me now through the profile screen found at http://www.bungie.net/Account/Profile.aspx. Here we are, mutually faceless, both ones in the Seventh.


SIR ISAAC NEWTON IS THE DEADLIEST SON A OF A -blam!- IN SPACE!


[Edited on 01.06.2011 1:26 PM PST]

  • 01.06.2011 1:24 PM PDT

'life is a stare down with death himself'


Posted by: Painbow 6
The recoil would be only slightly more than here on earth. You're right that it would probably send you into a tumble, but the only thing creating more recoil would be a lack of air resistance.

This has been discussed on another forum somewhere I was reading... can't remember which. They stated that a gun seems to violate Newton's third law. A bullet hits a target with significantly more force than is experienced through recoil. The reason is time. The recoil you feel through a gun is only the force of the initial explosion. After that the bullet is constantly accelerating out and away from the gun, so you don't feel that force.

So recoil will be almost the same in space, it's just the environment that will cause a difference.

the third law hasnt been violated. though i dont recommend it, you can see why by putting any round in a oven and heating it until it ignites: the round casing is propelled by the ignition of the gun powder with equal force

[Edited on 01.06.2011 1:30 PM PST]

  • 01.06.2011 1:29 PM PDT

i can only count to jagermeister.

Posted by: sa7anicBarracuda

Posted by: Painbow 6
The recoil would be only slightly more than here on earth. You're right that it would probably send you into a tumble, but the only thing creating more recoil would be a lack of air resistance.

This has been discussed on another forum somewhere I was reading... can't remember which. They stated that a gun seems to violate Newton's third law. A bullet hits a target with significantly more force than is experienced through recoil. The reason is time. The recoil you feel through a gun is only the force of the initial explosion. After that the bullet is constantly accelerating out and away from the gun, so you don't feel that force.

So recoil will be almost the same in space, it's just the environment that will cause a difference.

the third law hasnt been violated. though i dont recommend it, you can see why by putting any round in a oven and heating it until it ignites: the round casing is propelled by the ignition of the gun powder with equal force

:(

Please read my posts. Thanks :)

  • 01.06.2011 2:28 PM PDT

Posted by: JDYeash937 MkII
Posted by: spartanman14
Actually they can. They'd probably work better due to no atmospheric pressure.
I thought this until reading Snakie's first post.

Now I realise in space, there is no oxygen to combust the propellant, which means the weapon would misfire every single round. The pin would strike the primer, but the primer would not detonate.
To function, either the propellant itself must contain oxygen to combust, or the firing mechanism is completely sealed. In the event of the latter, it would only be able to fire one round, and then would no longer fire for the above reason.

You are correct on if you could fire a kinetic weapon in space, it would have theoretically infinite range and a much higher constant velocity.

I'm almost certain that all forms of gunpowder contain their own oxidizer.

  • 01.06.2011 2:41 PM PDT

Sour0deez is the leader of the t-P-t
And Administrator of The Clan Union Group
this file is not linked to sour0deez due to technical difficulties this file is linked to MUGBEER19 also IMPORTANT here my name is sourodeez on xbox it is sour0deez

Hey nasa, "yes?" some nerds from bungie want you to fire a gun in space..."um ok"


12 million dollars later
"OK here i go...BOOMO SH!!!"

  • 01.06.2011 4:59 PM PDT

I tell you, we're here on Earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different.

think about it like a spaceship.

Can a spaceship go in space? so can a bullet go in space?

Can a spaceships thrusters fire in space? Would the spaceship go on forever until it hit something if it didnt use reverse thrusters to stop its motion? Do the thrusters firing make the spaceship go in the opposite direction?

in case you didn't know, the answer to all these is YES.

so, a gun could fire in space, provided it has gunpowder (which, as someone stated before, being an explosive, has an oxidizer in it) and enough oxygen to produce a spark. The bullet would go on forever once fired until it hits something, or very unlikely, melts from various radiation in space. And if you fire the gun, due to the lack of gravity and friction, you also would go flying in the opposite direction until you hit something or melted from heat/other radiation.

a better question would be, assuming complete vacuum with no gravity, if you fire a gun at eye level, would you fly straight backward, or would you rotate as well? This would depend on whether the gun would still kick in a direction other than straight back, like the up we are used to... o.O

  • 01.06.2011 5:21 PM PDT

Posted by: XxZ SxX
think about it like a spaceship.

Can a spaceship go in space? so can a bullet go in space?

Can a spaceships thrusters fire in space? Would the spaceship go on forever until it hit something if it didnt use reverse thrusters to stop its motion? Do the thrusters firing make the spaceship go in the opposite direction?

in case you didn't know, the answer to all these is YES.

so, a gun could fire in space, provided it has gunpowder (which, as someone stated before, being an explosive, has an oxidizer in it) and enough oxygen to produce a spark. The bullet would go on forever once fired until it hits something, or very unlikely, melts from various radiation in space. And if you fire the gun, due to the lack of gravity and friction, you also would go flying in the opposite direction until you hit something or melted from heat/other radiation.

a better question would be, assuming complete vacuum with no gravity, if you fire a gun at eye level, would you fly straight backward, or would you rotate as well? This would depend on whether the gun would still kick in a direction other than straight back, like the up we are used to... o.O


If you were FLOATING in space, you´d just start rotating around your center of MASS with a speed in proportion to the amount of force being applied to you from the recoil, how far the location of application is away FROM the center of mass... There are a LOT of factors involved.

If you were standing on something with magnetic boots or belts or something, it´s the exact same thing, only then applied to THE ENTIRE STRUCTURE.

  • 01.06.2011 5:41 PM PDT

I tell you, we're here on Earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different.

but wouldn't the gun's mass up near your head move your collective center of mass higher? Assuming its a large enough gun, it could cause you to move straight backwards.

and going off your entire structure statement, theoretically, with that soviet space station with a machine gun and Hubble with a shotgun, if they shot at eachother they would eventually collide back-to-back?

O.o

  • 01.06.2011 5:46 PM PDT

No, the SOVIET SPACE-CHENE GUN OF COMMUNIST GLORY was mounted right on ´top´ (in line with) the center of mass. It´d just get pushed back.

  • 01.06.2011 5:50 PM PDT

I tell you, we're here on Earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different.

exactly, but they're still held by gravity, so "straight backward" would mean maintaining altitude, and assuming the telescope was getting launched straight back by the shotgun, they'd go "straight backwards" around the earth then collide.

MUAHAHAHAHA!

  • 01.06.2011 5:59 PM PDT

I wanted a gumball so I said "Yo devil you got change for a soul?"

Satan appeared and said "Yeah, yeah mosuckra! I got yo change right here just sign this contract and I'll give you your quarters!"

So I signed it, lost my soul, and got 4 quarters. I have never regretted this decision.
-------------
Buy Personsen related swag: http://www.zazzle.com/personsenstore

I blame Stosh.

  • 01.06.2011 6:01 PM PDT

gamertag : firedune22

avid forger, love vehicle gameplay

the gunpowde in a bullet casing actually comtain all of the oygen it needs to burn , vacuum or not. combustion can happen in a vacuum, as well a straight-out flames, albeit for not very long. this is what stars are, this is what neary destroyed apollo 13, this is how rocket engines burn their fuel. i know for a fact that the (m-17?) submachine gun fires caseles- ammunition. how exactly these work i am not exacly sure about.

  • 01.06.2011 6:02 PM PDT

seventh coloumn pride

they should make astronaut test this

better idea

somone send it in to mythbusters as a myth

  • 01.06.2011 6:33 PM PDT

Expressing my strong liberal views without shame. Favorite quotes below:

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."
"One starts to live when he can live outside himself."

- Albert Einstein

A popular question in my Physics class.

The fact of the matter is that bullets don't need a medium to travel in. Neither do rockets. They propel themselves using chemical energy, and therefore air is not necessary. It isn't Newton's third law, it's more momentum and energy transfer.

  • 01.06.2011 7:25 PM PDT

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