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  • Subject: If you've finished Cryptum like me, come here. (MAJOR SPOIL)
Subject: If you've finished Cryptum like me, come here. (MAJOR SPOIL)

First off, I'm going to start by saying this: I cannot BELIEVE I was right! I had always said the Gravemind was a Precursor left behind and trapped by them!!!!

(Note: I can prove its the Gravemind. Medicant Bias destroyed Cheruum Hakkor 43 years ago and apparently spoke to the Captive for 43 years. He then turns on the Forerunners, just like we've known about the MB/Mind relationship since Halo 3)

Okay....now, I don't think the Forerunners destroyed the Precursors. That was most likely the Mind talking -blam!- to confuse Didact. Precursor building material is physically impossible to destroy short of neural weapons, according to Bornstellar.

And the Didact was always talking about following in Their footsteps.

It was probably just the Gravemind trying to confuse a then young Didact.

But the Flood...it would appear the Mind wasn't ALWAYS in control, huh? I wonder how that works out later...

[Edited on 01.05.2011 4:30 PM PST]

  • 01.05.2011 4:15 PM PDT

The Forerunner, the Great Journey, and Heaven Theory

[Announcement Trailer] Halo: Forerunner

Posted by: Agustus
I lol'd at the absurd miscommunication that occurs whenever dibbs post something. Perhaps his brain is so highly evolved that he can no longer clearly communicate with lesser life forms, even among his own species.

Posted by: StealthSlasher2

Posted by: dibbs089
The only problem I had with Bear is that he moved from event to event at a kind of breakneck speed. It should have been a little slower paced (I mean Mendicant Bias' introduction takes place in the middle of a chapter - it fully warranted a set up for it as opposed to it just happening).



Indeed when just considering this book alone the pacing is too quick. However, this is just one part of a trilogy...so I would imagine that once all three books come together the pacing and overview of the story will make sense.
To be honest I have this nagging feeling that the length was mandated to be exactly 343 pages and that's why its pacing is that way it is. I truly hope that isn't the case but...I don't know. It was great nonetheless it's just you have to read very closely to to figure out transitions because they often occur mid-paragraph.

Posted by: ROBERTO jh
First off, I'm going to start by saying this: I cannot BELIEVE I was right! I had always said the Gravemind was a Precursor left behind and trapped by them!!!!
Errr...I hate to burst your bubble but there is no proof that the captive is the Gravemind or even becomes a part of the Gravemind (let alone the Flood). I also have serious problems with his claim to be the last Precursor (or even a Precursor at all). The most powerful species in most fictional universes tend to have a similar anatomy to humans. They don't tend to be compared to giant sea-scorpions or other animals.



[Edited on 01.05.2011 4:30 PM PST]

  • 01.05.2011 4:29 PM PDT


Posted by: dibbs089
Posted by: StealthSlasher2

[quote]Posted by: dibbs089
[quote]Posted by: ROBERTO jh
First off, I'm going to start by saying this: I cannot BELIEVE I was right! I had always said the Gravemind was a Precursor left behind and trapped by them!!!!
Errr...I hate to burst your bubble but there is no proof that the captive is the Gravemind or even becomes a part of the Gravemind (let alone the Flood). I also have serious problems with his claim to be the last Precursor (or even a Precursor at all). The most powerful species in most fictional universes tend to have a similar anatomy to humans. They don't tend to be compared to giant sea-scorpions or other animals.




"'The Halo entered slipspace on a scheduled mission and vanished. Medicant Bias went with the instillation. That was 43 years ago.'

Forty-three years on the first Halo...in the presence of the captive? Did they communicate? Can that ever make sense?' "

See? It fits. The MB and the Gravemind spent
forty three years together as was always the case, communicating with each other, until MB started helping the Mind, which he did by attacking the Captiol with 5 of the 12 Halos.

The evidence is their; the Captive is the Gravemind.


[Edited on 01.05.2011 4:42 PM PST]

  • 01.05.2011 4:41 PM PDT

I just find intresting that the flood were the very reason for the human-forrunner war atlease that is what i gatherd.

  • 01.05.2011 6:48 PM PDT
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Since it seems that the account didn't transfer, that's my new account everyone.

i'm dying for that next book...I really want to know why those humans killed themselves.

Anyone else foresee a Human-Flood war (the first one, while fighting the forerunners) book series? much like this one, except a human POV?

Which brings a new idea to my mind...

Who thinks that the next book in the series takes the POV of Riser or the other guy? and then the third book takes the POV of the last person in the trio?

Several book series have done it before....What do you guys think.

  • 01.05.2011 7:12 PM PDT

"Guns don't kill people, videogames do."

I found http://halo3.com/comic/ June 14, 2007 :)

#2 in the world for "Yuriev Time Trial" in Crackdown.

Anyone else as happy as me that they included much of the Iris and halo 3 lore? Sure, there were a few slight deviations, but it was great to see them expand on the Iris info

  • 01.05.2011 8:43 PM PDT

Online ID: GriffGraff15


Posted by: FloodForum Ruler

Posted by: Darthbill99
hes clearly trolling


Don't think so. I almost done with the book, and the Human-Flood part is true. There was also more than 7 Halos, which shocked me because of the whole Bungie-7 thing.


It was already in the Halo storyline (I think it was Halo 2) where a Monitor said that there is a huge network of Halo Arrays around the Universe/Galaxy in case a Flood Outbreak occurred.

  • 01.05.2011 8:52 PM PDT

Valiant men have died here so we don't have to, so let's get the hell out.

Well in 2 there were six and on the Ark in 3 there was that hologram system in the control center which had seven rings (one broken). I don't really get the need for twelve rings but it looks like they're going to seven now (six around the Ark and I'm guessing one floating around ith MB and the Captive.

  • 01.05.2011 8:58 PM PDT

The Forerunner, the Great Journey, and Heaven Theory

[Announcement Trailer] Halo: Forerunner

Posted by: Agustus
I lol'd at the absurd miscommunication that occurs whenever dibbs post something. Perhaps his brain is so highly evolved that he can no longer clearly communicate with lesser life forms, even among his own species.

Posted by: ROBERTO jh
"'The Halo entered slipspace on a scheduled mission and vanished. Medicant Bias went with the instillation. That was 43 years ago.'

Forty-three years on the first Halo...in the presence of the captive? Did they communicate? Can that ever make sense?' "

See? It fits. The MB and the Gravemind spent
forty three years together as was always the case, communicating with each other, until MB started helping the Mind, which he did by attacking the Captiol with 5 of the 12 Halos.

The evidence is their; the Captive is the Gravemind.

No, the evidence isn't there. Terminal Three (of Halo 3) states the following,

D: We have the answer. We've built
Mendicant Bias. It's a contender
class [AI], unlike anything we've
ever achieved.

And we've observed a pattern it
can exploit.

The parasite has formed a Compound
Mind. When it reaches a certain
mass, the Mind is able to recoil its
disparate parts to create a
[tactical shield]. This is a simple
matter of mass preservation. The
thing has no compunction about
sacrificing parts of the whole. But
when the core of the Mind is
threatened, it reacts violently
and quickly.

Notice how it says "the parasite has formed a Compound Mind". It didn't find or adsorb one, it formed (created) one. Mendicant was created long after the Forerunner already knew of the existence of the Gravemind. How could the captive be the Gravemind when the Gravemind already existed prior to the captive's release?



[Edited on 01.05.2011 10:14 PM PST]

  • 01.05.2011 10:14 PM PDT

This is profile number 4

actually been a member of Bungie.net since March-April 2004

... I have a tendency to lose my passwords...

Posted by: dibbs089
Posted by: ROBERTO jh
"'The Halo entered slipspace on a scheduled mission and vanished. Medicant Bias went with the instillation. That was 43 years ago.'

Forty-three years on the first Halo...in the presence of the captive? Did they communicate? Can that ever make sense?' "

See? It fits. The MB and the Gravemind spent
forty three years together as was always the case, communicating with each other, until MB started helping the Mind, which he did by attacking the Captiol with 5 of the 12 Halos.

The evidence is their; the Captive is the Gravemind.

No, the evidence isn't there. Terminal Three (of Halo 3) states the following,

D: We have the answer. We've built
Mendicant Bias. It's a contender
class [AI], unlike anything we've
ever achieved.

And we've observed a pattern it
can exploit.

The parasite has formed a Compound
Mind. When it reaches a certain
mass, the Mind is able to recoil its
disparate parts to create a
[tactical shield]. This is a simple
matter of mass preservation. The
thing has no compunction about
sacrificing parts of the whole. But
when the core of the Mind is
threatened, it reacts violently
and quickly.

Notice how it says "the parasite has formed a Compound Mind". It didn't find or adsorb one, it formed (created) one. Mendicant was created long after the Forerunner already knew of the existence of the Gravemind. How could the captive be the Gravemind when the Gravemind already existed prior to the captive's release?



Yes but it has Didact speaking as if he was over seeing the war which he never did because he was in exile the whole time. Although he did have a hand in Medicant Bias's creation, but that may have been a thousand years ago. Long before the flood war.

[Edited on 01.06.2011 1:26 PM PST]

  • 01.05.2011 10:19 PM PDT

The Forerunner, the Great Journey, and Heaven Theory

[Announcement Trailer] Halo: Forerunner

Posted by: Agustus
I lol'd at the absurd miscommunication that occurs whenever dibbs post something. Perhaps his brain is so highly evolved that he can no longer clearly communicate with lesser life forms, even among his own species.

Posted by: Terminus
Yes but it has Didact speaking as if he was over seeing the war which he never did because he was in exile the whole time. Although he did have a hand in Medicant Bias's creation, but they may have been a thousand years ago. Long before the flood war.
Mendicant was created to specifically combat the Flood. The Forerunner knew of the Flood's existence and created Mendicant prior to Didact entering his Cryptum. The terminal quote above shows that the Flood already had a Gravemind formed (note the key word formed) long before the captive was ever released.

[Edited on 01.05.2011 10:32 PM PST]

  • 01.05.2011 10:32 PM PDT


Posted by: dibbs089
Posted by: Terminus
Yes but it has Didact speaking as if he was over seeing the war which he never did because he was in exile the whole time. Although he did have a hand in Medicant Bias's creation, but they may have been a thousand years ago. Long before the flood war.
Mendicant was created to specifically combat the Flood. The Forerunner knew of the Flood's existence and created Mendicant prior to Didact entering his Cryptum. The terminal quote above shows that the Flood already had a Gravemind formed (note the key word formed) long before the captive was ever released.


Remember: Bornstellar said the Forerunner story is full of idealization and mistellings. His retelling is the truth. According to the two FRs who escaped the 5 Halos with Born, Medicant Bias was built specifically to control the Halo rings, not kill the Mind. He was the one who destroyed Charum Hakkor, and released the Captive 43 years ago using a test fired Halo ring.

The Captive, the Ring and the Medicant Bias then went missing for 43 years, JUST like the Gravemind and Medicant spoke and conversed for 43 years, the conversation that ended in Medicant's fall. Which, if you noticed, Medicant Bias used 5 Halo Rings (or at least tried) on the Captol World, after he returned.

They had been missing that Ring for 43 years up to that point, those same years Medicant and the Captive were conversing. Then, when the Ring rejoins the 12 for no apparent reason, a Rampant and converted Medicant Bias attacks the Captol of the Forerunner Empire.

Notice how the Flood didn't seem THAT big of a deal during the Ancient Human-Flood War? That there was no apparent Gravemind or central Compound Mind? The Flood simply turned its victims into cannibals, nothing else. I think it even said Humans never changed appearance, and that Prophets and Humans couldn't infect each other.

But if a Transsentient being were to join the Flood, he would immediatly take over. The Bestarium desribes the Gravemind as a Transsentient being (which was my first clue to him being a Precursor) which means only someone of the Gravemind's level of infinite intellect and nigh omniscience are transsentient.

The Captive is a Precursor. He seems VERY pissed off at the Forerunners, saying "our answer is at hand" (what other "answer" could it be but the Flood?) It seems pretty apparent that his infection is what turns him into the Mind as at least we know it, that controls and dictates the Flood more effectively then the War with the humans, also mutating itself so no cure can be found for it.

You don't need the word "Gravemind" to be said for one to figure out the captive is the Gravemind. So unless there's something else we don't know (which there probably is) then the only logical conclusion based on the evidence is that

Captive=Gravemind.

  • 01.06.2011 5:24 AM PDT

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Posted by: Joeaxamus
Well in 2 there were six and on the Ark in 3 there was that hologram system in the control center which had seven rings (one broken). I don't really get the need for twelve rings but it looks like they're going to seven now (six around the Ark and I'm guessing one floating around ith MB and the Captive.

  • 01.06.2011 6:10 AM PDT

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I haven't read the book, and am a bit confused.

In the Halo 3 Terminals, when the Librarian comes across humans on earth, it's a big shock (and a wondrous surprise) to the Forerunners. But if what I've been reading in this thread is correct, wouldn't the Forerunners already know humanity exists...since they defeated humanity and de-evolved them?

Also, why would the Forerunner make humanity a reclaimer to their empire, if they fought a war, and the best option to stop humanity from becoming powerful again was to de-evolve them?

I'm confused...can anyone shed some light for me?
Thanks!

  • 01.06.2011 6:40 AM PDT

"Guns don't kill people, videogames do."

I found http://halo3.com/comic/ June 14, 2007 :)

#2 in the world for "Yuriev Time Trial" in Crackdown.


Posted by: xxVIPERMANxx
I haven't read the book, and am a bit confused.

In the Halo 3 Terminals, when the Librarian comes across humans on earth, it's a big shock (and a wondrous surprise) to the Forerunners. But if what I've been reading in this thread is correct, wouldn't the Forerunners already know humanity exists...since they defeated humanity and de-evolved them?

Also, why would the Forerunner make humanity a reclaimer to their empire, if they fought a war, and the best option to stop humanity from becoming powerful again was to de-evolve them?

I'm confused...can anyone shed some light for me?
Thanks!

Well, I think your first question can be explained by saying that they decided to change that part of the Canon. (They wanted humanity to feel special in the halo trilogy).

Or it could be that they found Earth late in the war, and the humans there had gone unnoticed .

For your second question, throughout the book the forerunners get and and more comfortable witj humanity. The librarian really finds us intriguing. I guess we showed the most potential, so we were picked as the reclaimer species

  • 01.06.2011 7:43 AM PDT


Posted by: xxVIPERMANxx
I haven't read the book, and am a bit confused.

In the Halo 3 Terminals, when the Librarian comes across humans on earth, it's a big shock (and a wondrous surprise) to the Forerunners. But if what I've been reading in this thread is correct, wouldn't the Forerunners already know humanity exists...since they defeated humanity and de-evolved them?

Also, why would the Forerunner make humanity a reclaimer to their empire, if they fought a war, and the best option to stop humanity from becoming powerful again was to de-evolve them?

I'm confused...can anyone shed some light for me?
Thanks!


Well, it can be explained like this. Humanity once had an empire that rivaled the Forerunners. However, tensions between the Forerunners and the Humans escalated because of the side effects of Humaniy's and the San'Shyuum's secret war against the Flood.

Even though Humanity was defeated and de-evolved, I think the Forerunner greatly respected Humans because it really wasn't their fault that they had grown aggressive. It was because of the Flood. And I'm guessing the Librarian was surprised to see that Humanity was recovering pretty quickly from their de-evolution. Even the Didact was surprised by this.

I'm guessing because of Humanity's past efforts against the Flood, and their ability to crawl from the pit that the Forerunners had thrown them in, the Forerunners named them their successors.

  • 01.06.2011 9:08 AM PDT

When the Gravemind says "I am a monument to all your sins" when talking to MC maybe he is refrencing to humanitys discovery and unleashing of theflood on the galaxy.

  • 01.06.2011 10:48 AM PDT

The Forerunner, the Great Journey, and Heaven Theory

[Announcement Trailer] Halo: Forerunner

Posted by: Agustus
I lol'd at the absurd miscommunication that occurs whenever dibbs post something. Perhaps his brain is so highly evolved that he can no longer clearly communicate with lesser life forms, even among his own species.

Posted by: ROBERTO jh
You don't need the word "Gravemind" to be said for one to figure out the captive is the Gravemind. So unless there's something else we don't know (which there probably is) then the only logical conclusion based on the evidence is that

Captive=Gravemind.
You mean based on all of the "evidence" you just made up?

Remember: Bornstellar said the Forerunner story is full of idealization and mistellings.
Gravemind and Medicant spoke and conversed for 43 years, the conversation that ended in Medicant's fall.It's odd; in the first quote you stated that the proof I used (the Terminals) were "idealizations and mistellings" and yet the proof you use to show how long MB and the Gravemind communicated comes directly from the terminals. How exactly are you so omnipotent as to know what text from the terminals we must follow and what we can ignore?

I will give it to you though. From the terminals it seems MB was having his conversation with the Gravemind for exactly 43 years (379,807 hours). However, the terminals also state the Gravemind was formed before MB was ever sent on his mission. It seems undeniable that the captive is deeply intertwined, somehow, with the Flood. He does seem to be in control of them even. However, he alone cannot be the Gravemind (though he may end up becoming part of the Flood, which, if that's the case, presumably the Gravemind would have complete access to his mind) because the Gravemind was already formed before he was ever released.

But if a Transsentient being were to join the Flood, he would immediatly take over. The Bestarium desribes the Gravemind as a Transsentient being (which was my first clue to him being a Precursor) which means only someone of the Gravemind's level of infinite intellect and nigh omniscience are transsentient. That first sentence is entirely your opinion. How could you possibly know that a transsentient being would take over the Flood if it joined/was absorbed? In regards to your assertion that the Bestiarum lists the Gravemind as transsentient, that is incorrect. The only thing that could possibly be construed as listing his capabilities is his technological Tier listing which is "Native Tier 7/Adopted Tier 2"; transsentience requires Tier 0.

The Captive is a Precursor. He seems VERY pissed off at the Forerunners, saying "our answer is at hand" (what other "answer" could it be but the Flood?) It seems pretty apparent that his infection is what turns him into the Mind as at least we know it, that controls and dictates the Flood more effectively then the War with the humans, also mutating itself so no cure can be found for it.The captive says he is Percursor but we don't have any evidence to test that assertion. We know that he is very old, we know what he looks like, we know he has knowledge of the Precursor, and we know he was imprisoned (and kept imprisoned by the humans) for a reason. Everything else we say about him is a supposition that cannot yet be proven.

  • 01.06.2011 1:03 PM PDT

to be honest, might sound a bit harsh here but please forgive. nobody here has any blam! idea how the halo story all began, what was supposed to of happened all those years before the Human/Covenant war, so this is officially what happened. would like to think that the halo story as a whole is pretty well thought out and as much as I don't like the idea of a Human/Forerunner war or any of that, I do respect Greg Bear is the best writer to ever take on the Halo story, have read many of his other works and they are all brilliant, inventive and extremely in-depth. so I agree with the majority of people, lets accept it, enjoy it and move on and continue to enjoy this expansive, deep and dark universe for what it is, a work of fiction.

on another note, Gears of War is another awesome universe, rivalling the Halo universe in terms of depth and polish, though I do think that Marcus Fenix is a better character than 117 in many ways.

  • 01.06.2011 1:04 PM PDT

Sour0deez is the leader of the t-P-t
And Administrator of The Clan Union Group
this file is not linked to sour0deez due to technical difficulties this file is linked to MUGBEER19 also IMPORTANT here my name is sourodeez on xbox it is sour0deez


Posted by: SOURODEEZ

Posted by: The Ultra
How did the Forerunners beat (DESTROY, actually) the Precursors? Well...

I do not know. I only know they did this because of the last little lines of the book, which say:

"We meet again, young one. I am the last of those who gave you breath and shape and form, millions of years ago. I am the last of those your kind rose up against and ruthlessly destroyed . I am the last Precursor. And our answer is at hand."

Can you say cliffhanger?


did teh floodz fight in prescure vs forrunner war?

  • 01.06.2011 1:59 PM PDT

**It's a shame stupidity can't be converted into a usable energy source.
**I don't know about the world ending, but common sense ended a long time ago.
**Advantages are taken, not handed out.
**I reject your reality & substitute my own.

The WorkPLace
Ninjas With Attitude

Ok, so I have some input on the Captive/Gravemind theory.

Since I haven't read the book...and also since I'm not an English major...I'll leave it to someone who knows more than I do:

Gravemind spoke in iambic heptameter...does the Captive follow suit????

  • 01.06.2011 2:45 PM PDT

I tell you, we're here on Earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different.

Everyone is arguing about whether "the Captive" is or is not "the Gravemind". I feel a few key points have been left out.

*note: these are direct quotes from Cryptum

"We meet again, young one. I am the last of those who gave you breath and shape and form, millions of years ago.
I am the last of those your kind rose up against and ruthelessly destroyed.
I am the last Precursor.
And our answer is at hand.


I feel like everyone's getting hung up on the point of whether the Captive is really a Precursor or not, not the last line. Obviously, He is speaking for the Precursors, if not actually a Precursor.

Something manufactured by humans... pushing through Precursor technology. How was that possible...?
Was this actually a Precursor, as the humans had at first believed? Or was it something manufactured by Precursors--possibly a strange, distorted sibling to both Forerunners and (the Didact was reluctant to consider this) humans?
Looking down into the deactivated human timelock, and beyond that secondary cage, tuning the Precursor tool, so small and simple--merely a smooth oval with three notches on its side...."The humans found a way to active at least one Precursor artifact," I said.

I include these quotes for a few reasons. First off, whether the Captive is actually a Precursor or not, he was unarguably put there BY the Precursors, and given a means to communicate with others at a later point, by the Precursors.

That means that, Precursor or not, he was left to leave at the very least a message to those left behind. The message being that the Flood is implied as the Precursor's revenge for their creation's betrayal.

Now that we've established the Captive was at the very least deliberately left behind by the Precursors, and the Flood is their creation, the fact that the Captive, once free, would eventually assume leadership of the flood, makes complete sense.

More sophisticated, more devious. More vital. And soon to acquire a new Master, if we did not act quickly--if we did not locate the lost installation and the former captive

This, I feel, proves the Captive is the Gravemind, without even using the huge amounts of evidence from the Terminals, or evidence from Cryptum that collaborates with them.



just a side note, did anyone else notice the "subtitle" under the Bungie Universe forum title makes more sense now because of the whole "geas" concept?

[Edited on 01.06.2011 3:45 PM PST]

  • 01.06.2011 3:22 PM PDT
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Even though I haven't read the novel yt, what I've read in this thread has blown my mind.

So, the Precursors created the Flood out of vengeance, transported it out of galaxy, and then it infected humanity first who was the only race along with the Prophets to find a cure?

Also, I like how they changed the Forerunners from a benevolent confederation into Halo's version of the Roman Empire.

  • 01.06.2011 3:52 PM PDT