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This topic has moved here: Subject: If you've finished Cryptum like me, come here. (MAJOR SPOIL)
  • Subject: If you've finished Cryptum like me, come here. (MAJOR SPOIL)
Subject: If you've finished Cryptum like me, come here. (MAJOR SPOIL)
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Posted by: Darthbill99
hes clearly trolling

How is he trolling? The book clearly says that.

  • 01.19.2011 7:54 AM PDT

"Shall we let the Flood consume our holy city? Turn High Charity into another of their wretched hives? No enemy has ever withstood our might. The Flood, too, shall fail."

-Prophet of Truth.


Posted by: Ark of Covenant
Posted by: TallestSpark
The reason the Precursors lost so easily because they lived in stars. The Forerunners blew up these stars, and in the process almost destroying themselves.


Where was this in Cryptum? Isn't that just a theory? Proof?


Posted by: TallestSparkAlso, 8+6 is 14, divide by 2 because
there are two numbers/creatures, and you get 7 :)


That gave me some goosebumps. But he was missing for only 43 years total. If he spent 43 years with Gravemind and 43 years with the Captive, I think they would have said he was missing for 86 years.


I believe in the last few chapters it was talking about the suns, I'll go back and check for you when I come back home.

  • 01.19.2011 8:30 AM PDT
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Posted by: grey101
Before being wiped out they created the flood to destroy the forerunners but for whatever reason the flood didn't appear until eons later.

Well, the Precursors were transgalactic, right? And The Flood supposedly came from outside of the galaxy, so it's possible that they created it in a completely different galaxy and then sent it into the Milky Way to do its thing.

  • 01.19.2011 9:48 AM PDT

- Dragon Ball/Z/GT and it's merchandise are awesome.
- All "abriged" parodies are hilarious.
- Humanity, as a whole, is stupid.
- I have asperger's syndrome
- This is the best used 20 seconds of your life
- Official helper to the Halo: Reach - The Armor You'll Be Wearing This Fall! Thread

Excuse me, I need to let this out...

HOLY -blam!- ING GOD DAMN -blam!- ING MOTHER OF -blam!- ING -blam!- ITY JESUS -blam!- ING -blam!-!

Ahem.

Now then, we all agree that this book has more bombshells in it then heaven for military explosives, so EVERYTHING now is in question.

I read the whole thread, and a lot of you seem to be sticking to established canon without considering that things just aren't as he had assumed them to be.

Back after Halo CE, we KNEW the flood was a mad virus, then the gravemind popped in halo 2.

Prior to contact harvest, we KNEW that the prophets and the oter covies really thought that humanity were blasphemous, then we find out that truth, mercy, and regret knew otherwise.

After that, we KNEW that they were the only ones who knew this, but then the new edition of First Strike shows that OTHER prophets knew too.

All of canon needs to be reexamined with this info in mind, as well as that the stuff in Cryptum may not even be reliable. It's clear that Born/Diadect's memory and mental state is less than stable, on top of the fact that NONE of the forerunners in the book nor the AI's can be entirely trusted.

Also, snakie:

Also, at least part of cryptum has been canon for a while:

The artifacts on heian as seen in the babysitter, the use of forerunner words such as "ancillia" in context, but without enough to give away their meaning in past canon sources, etc.

Even some of the stuff in Reach's datapads match up now, as does some stuff in haleslys journal.

A ton of what we knew of but didn't understand before MAKES SENSE.

I have a feeling that the general idea of cryptum was already part of the halo story bible at least around the time of halo 3's release, so just follow the current and enjoy the ride.

Halo has always been about mystery, and it still is: Cryptum reveals a ton, but makes more of then apparent, still waiting to be unraveled.


Futhermore, going back over your thoery now, it's not completly out of the question:

The flood still may be a creation of the Presucusors, or they may be the same.

Adapt it, rebuild your theory to make it work now, don't stare at it's still alive but unsconscious body.

Now I have a few questions about this book:

-What is a Scoria? it's mentioned on a page, but not explained in the glossary given on waypoint despite ti being past the chapeter already.

- Everything mentioned on page 100, I think these need to be looked at more...

- A pentad is a unti of time right? it's first mentioned on page 107, but not defined till the end, I think we should go back to 107 and re-read the section.

- How old is chakas meant to be? I now riser is around 200 years, but..

- How long do these events take? We kno that forerunners have EXTERMLY long lifespans, and there are many sections where born admits he lost his touch ith time, for all we know, this book ent over more than 100 years.

- What's the differnce between an _manune and a _manush? both seem to refer to a human subspecias, hith the letters in the blank denoting which kind.

- on page 109, it's said that hamanune's ancesntors "live in their heads" what does this mean?

- Whats a biota, menioned on pg 131.

- on page 178, something called the Grammarian and Strategos are mentioned, what are they?

- on page 264, born asks about the flood to dust, and he says "that will be discussed later". then a paragraph down, he asks again, and dust replies with shock. Why?

EDIT:

Posted by: ROBERTO jh

Posted by: dibbs089
Posted by: Terminus
Yes but it has Didact speaking as if he was over seeing the war which he never did because he was in exile the whole time. Although he did have a hand in Medicant Bias's creation, but they may have been a thousand years ago. Long before the flood war.
Mendicant was created to specifically combat the Flood. The Forerunner knew of the Flood's existence and created Mendicant prior to Didact entering his Cryptum. The terminal quote above shows that the Flood already had a Gravemind formed (note the key word formed) long before the captive was ever released.


Remember: Bornstellar said the Forerunner story is full of idealization and mistellings. His retelling is the truth. According to the two FRs who escaped the 5 Halos with Born, Medicant Bias was built specifically to control the Halo rings, not kill the Mind. He was the one who destroyed Charum Hakkor, and released the Captive 43 years ago using a test fired Halo ring.

The Captive, the Ring and the Medicant Bias then went missing for 43 years, JUST like the Gravemind and Medicant spoke and conversed for 43 years, the conversation that ended in Medicant's fall. Which, if you noticed, Medicant Bias used 5 Halo Rings (or at least tried) on the Captol World, after he returned.

They had been missing that Ring for 43 years up to that point, those same years Medicant and the Captive were conversing. Then, when the Ring rejoins the 12 for no apparent reason, a Rampant and converted Medicant Bias attacks the Captol of the Forerunner Empire.

Notice how the Flood didn't seem THAT big of a deal during the Ancient Human-Flood War? That there was no apparent Gravemind or central Compound Mind? The Flood simply turned its victims into cannibals, nothing else. I think it even said Humans never changed appearance, and that Prophets and Humans couldn't infect each other.

But if a Transsentient being were to join the Flood, he would immediatly take over. The Bestarium desribes the Gravemind as a Transsentient being (which was my first clue to him being a Precursor) which means only someone of the Gravemind's level of infinite intellect and nigh omniscience are transsentient.

The Captive is a Precursor. He seems VERY pissed off at the Forerunners, saying "our answer is at hand" (what other "answer" could it be but the Flood?) It seems pretty apparent that his infection is what turns him into the Mind as at least we know it, that controls and dictates the Flood more effectively then the War with the humans, also mutating itself so no cure can be found for it.

You don't need the word "Gravemind" to be said for one to figure out the captive is the Gravemind. So unless there's something else we don't know (which there probably is) then the only logical conclusion based on the evidence is that

Captive=Gravemind.


Now, This makes sense, but you are taking a lot of what bornstealler saw and was told as absolute truth.

Posted by: crazyBoy3

Posted by: xxVIPERMANxx
I haven't read the book, and am a bit confused.

In the Halo 3 Terminals, when the Librarian comes across humans on earth, it's a big shock (and a wondrous surprise) to the Forerunners. But if what I've been reading in this thread is correct, wouldn't the Forerunners already know humanity exists...since they defeated humanity and de-evolved them?

Also, why would the Forerunner make humanity a reclaimer to their empire, if they fought a war, and the best option to stop humanity from becoming powerful again was to de-evolve them?

I'm confused...can anyone shed some light for me?
Thanks!

Well, I think your first question can be explained by saying that they decided to change that part of the Canon. (They wanted humanity to feel special in the halo trilogy).

Or it could be that they found Earth late in the war, and the humans there had gone unnoticed .

For your second question, throughout the book the forerunners get and and more comfortable witj humanity. The librarian really finds us intriguing. I guess we showed the most potential, so we were picked as the reclaimer species


Perhaps she came back to earth and was surprised that they were still around?

Perhaps that diadect and librian is NOT the same two in cryptum?

We know that there are now "two" diadects, bornstealler and the orginal. Perhapbs somone else becoms a 2nd libarian in much the same way?

Posted by: SPARTAN MURRAY 1
Posted by: XxZ SxX

just a side note, did anyone else notice the "subtitle" under the Bungie Universe forum title makes more sense now because of the whole "geas" concept?


Whoa I never noticed that! You are so right, we now know why some humans, including John 117, can use and partially understand Forerunner tech. It's because of the "geas" Great catch!


Posted by: SPARTAN MURRAY 1
Posted by: XxZ SxX

just a side note, did anyone else notice the "subtitle" under the Bungie Universe forum title makes more sense now because of the whole "geas" concept?


Whoa I never noticed that! You are so right, we now know why some humans, including John 117, can use and partially understand Forerunner tech. It's because of the "geas" Great catch!


See? THAT'S what I mean! look at old books and canon with the new info, it will help.

Posted by: mchalo and fries
just finished.
OK, so huge twists all around with this book lol
Human-Forerunner war
Human-Flood war
Forerunner-Precursor war
The precursor they kept as a prisoner was very interesting. From his description he sounds like a sea scorpion. Up right like a man, 4 arms on the torso, 2 legs, a scorpion like face with 4 eyes and a long double barbed tail. Sounds like these guys were total beasts lol To everyone arguing about the precursor becoming the gavemind...its possible, but not needed. He could just have easily been infected just like everything else or if he escaped he would have died when the Halos are activated later.


Actually, I see you guys got something wrong:

His HEAD was discrbied as a Eurypterid, meaning his "skull" was like the front of one, and the head tail resembled the tail of one, not his entire body.

[Edited on 01.19.2011 12:16 PM PST]

  • 01.19.2011 12:15 PM PDT
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Posted by: XxZ SxX
something i feel needs to be clarified:

There is no possible way the Forerunners captured and put the Captive where he was for 2 reasons:

1: They didn't know/care about those planets or the humans until [relatively] recent expansion.

Just because the forerunners depicted in Cryptum didn't know/care about those planets doesn't mean their ancestors didn't. Plus, knowledge about the Forerunner-Precursor wasn't widespread. I believe the forerunners forgot about war either accidentally or on purpose overtime.

2:THE CAPTIVE WAS INSIDE A PRECURSOR-TECH "PRISON"

this means that the Precursors put him there. Period. Because the Forerunners, Humans, etc. obviously cant build Precursor tech. Or they would be other places.

Not necessarily, just because the Forerunners ancestors couldn't build Precursor tech doesn't mean they they didn't know how to use it. I mean the Humans (UNSC ones) knew how to use Covenant/Forerunner technology without the ability to build said technology.

in other news, someone needs to make a thread with a list of "general consensus" points, such as that the Gravemind and Captive were initally separate, but then (probably with a large amount of willingness) the Captive was absorbed by/combined with the Gravemind into a new "Super-Gravemind" (the one from the games) extremely more powerful than previous ones.


[Edited on 01.19.2011 1:31 PM PST]

  • 01.19.2011 1:31 PM PDT

I think the captive was a Gravemind, and that he was also a Precursor....if you look at from the perspective of the Gravemind(and I formulate this reasoning with some help of the Gravemind's conversations with Cortana in "Human Weakness" in Evolutions Volume 2) that the Gravemind doesn't care to differentiate between what alien races he's absorbed, they all become part of him, they all become one in the same in his perspective.
They become Infinite with the Flood's "persona", so origins have little matter to him. I think the captive was the final Precursor, and all precursors at the same time. The Precursors willingly submitted themselves to the Flood because their race was dying, and they wanted revenge. The Forerunners knew how to beat the Precursors, so something much more drastic was employed. At the same time, The Flood's "mind" works somewhat like a library-you have the Librarian collecting alien races on the Halos and Arks, The Flood could be the Precursor's answer to a Library, collecting ALL life in what it considers to be it's purest, non destructive form. There will be no more wars, or suffering. Only Flood. The Flood is the Precursor's Halo Array, in a manner of speaking. The Forerunners last option was to fire the Halo Arrays, the Precursor's last option was to evolve, collectively, into the Flood. Willingly.

I read the novel last week, but for clarification, is it ever specifically stated as to who put the Captive into his prison? Was it the Precursors, or the Forerunners?

The Medicant Bias 43 year thingy too. The conclusion I drew was that it was Delta Halo(Installation 05) that was test fired on the Charrum, releasing the captive, and Medicant and The Gravemind boarded Delta Halo and disappeared. This could explain the state of Delta Halo(massive disrepair, because the Forerunners could not locate it). While on Delta Halo, Gravemind corrupts Medicant with it's reasoning. It tries to do the same with Cortana in "Human Weakness", making it's ideas sound perfectly logical from the right perspective. Then 43 years later, Medicant agrees, and returns to the capitol.

I dunno, I'm trying to work in the circular logic, history repeats itself angle a bit...that's what I came away with.



[Edited on 01.19.2011 3:16 PM PST]

  • 01.19.2011 3:12 PM PDT
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The Gravemind is supposedly eternal. I can't remember if it's been directly said, but it is heavily implied. This makes me think that the Gravemind from Halo 2 and 3 is the same that fought the Forerunners all those millenniums ago. Then there is this qoute from Halo 3...

Said by: Gravemind - Said on Halo.
Resignation is my virtue; like water I ebb, and flow. Defeat is simply the addition of time to a sentence I never deserved... but you imposed.

Now, this seems to make no sense back in Halo 3. What sentence? Who imposed it? It seemed to be just more mindless blathering of the Gravemind at the time, but now... I'm not so sure. If I (we?) are right, and the captive is/became the Gravemind, it makes a lot of sense. The Humans and/or Forerunners captured and imprisoned a Precursor (possibly infected) on Charum Harkor (I hope I spelled that right. >_>). His sentence was his imprisonment. He didn't deserve it because he possibly was just a soldier who was on the losing side of a battle and was taken as a POW for thousands upon thousands of years. He sees the Humans and remembers them from his past, especially Master Chief who also resembles Forerunner with his "combat skin". So, making some assumptions, the meaning of that quote becomes something like this. He ebbs and flows like water; at times he and the Flood (possible Precursors too) are strong, but then they suffer a defeat and the tide of the flood recedes... Only to come back some time later. Defeat, not death, which the Gravemind would never assume that he could die since he has lived for hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of years, means for the Gravemind imprisonment once more. Presumably, the Gravemind is the Captive Precursor from Charum Harkor, who was imprisoned there for God only knows how long, to finally be released by Mendicant Bias' Halo testing. Then, I'd say that the Gravemind never left his Halo. He had an ultimate weapon that he could use to guide his infected fleets to consume the galaxy. This Halo would become Delta Halo, where he resided until he took over High Charity. After the Forerunners activate the Halo rings, the Gravemind was SEVERELY weakened, and the Sentinels could finally overpower him and trap him and his Flood on the ring. Where they continued to fight for 100,000 years.

  • 01.19.2011 4:35 PM PDT

To be honest, when I first saw all this in the weekly update I thought 2 things.
#1- there is an actual legendary ending but,
#2- No matter what anyone does,(kill all the bobs, hit all switches etc) that until the "time" mentioned in "There'll be another time..." is reached there won't be a legendary ending.

The weekly update by bungie has slowed my hardcore search for what unlocks the legendary ending.


Posted by: The Ultra
So... Some big things were shown, Can't wait for the next one.

Forerunners destroyed Precursors, Humans beat the Flood.

Very unexpected.
Precursors are much smarter in technolgy than the forerunners, and they could be in the dimensions that the forerunners dont see.

  • 01.19.2011 4:51 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

My big question: What in the living Hell do the Forerunners look like? Cryptum describes them, but keeps them too mysterious.

  • 01.19.2011 4:59 PM PDT


Posted by: mrhalo007

Precursors are much smarter in technolgy than the forerunners, and they could be in the dimensions that the forerunners dont see.


Or they could be the Flood....look at humans, the constant search for immortality, and the only way we can get it is to become vampires or computers. The Flood is like a computerized vampire. It hungers, it feeds, it learns and remembers....So the Precursors created a biological computer to upload themselves into.

  • 01.19.2011 5:04 PM PDT

- Dragon Ball/Z/GT and it's merchandise are awesome.
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- Humanity, as a whole, is stupid.
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra
My big question: What in the living Hell do the Forerunners look like? Cryptum describes them, but keeps them too mysterious.


Humanoids with skin colors ranging from gray to blue to pink, and fur in likwise colors.

  • 01.21.2011 8:01 AM PDT
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Posted by: Lord Snakie


Can't you just see the book for what it is; a fantastic chapter in the Halo universe by an amazing science fiction author?
The book, perhaps. The author... I'd be forced to think about him being contracted to do all this and have no real interest in the lore. The company behind it? If I bought this book, I would merely be supplying them with the capacity to produce content that will disappoint me in the future.


Lord Snakie, Wow.

I don't know what to say!

You will probably disregard what I tell yu since your depressed (I'm assuming), but the author says in the back of the book that his son, an avid Halo fan, got him into Halo and did his best to keep the canon straight for him!

I'm going to tell you what i thought of your theories.

I thought they were excellent and well written pieces of work that provided the best possible speculation for what will or has happened. However, thats all it was, just pure speculation. Please don't tell me that just because you put so much time into your theories that you thought they were canon.

So what if all your theories were disproved? I mean, I would be sad too, but it is just something you put a lot of time into. It is just like when I'm forging and I accidentally don't save my map I have been working on for all day. Sure I'll be angry, and I might take a break from forging, but I won't stop because it is something I love, an I am assuming writing theories is something you love too.

But, I do understand what you mean by how 343i is MS. I'm not very happy either.

  • 01.21.2011 9:16 AM PDT

- Dragon Ball/Z/GT and it's merchandise are awesome.
- All "abriged" parodies are hilarious.
- Humanity, as a whole, is stupid.
- I have asperger's syndrome
- This is the best used 20 seconds of your life
- Official helper to the Halo: Reach - The Armor You'll Be Wearing This Fall! Thread

Aha!

Just like I said, in the greg bear and frank conner interview on way point, franks says that forerunner history had more or less been canocially figured out by Halo 3.

So other than small details, Cryptum reavaltions are largely from Bungie, not 343.

  • 01.21.2011 10:27 AM PDT

I don't understand how people can be so outraged about Cryptum to be honest.

We all need to understand that whatever Bungie/343/Microsoft brings out is canon. Our interpretations of that, and the links we lay between given facts are mere product of our imaginations.
There is a difference between canon, fanon (the widely accepted ideas of the community regarded as facts, but never stated in canon.) and our own ideas and theories.
Just accept that there will always be conflicts between new chapters in canon and what we always thougt to be true...

That being said:
Cryptum is cool as hell! One of my favorite books in the series. Can't wait for the second entry in the trilogy, which will hopefull focus a bit more on the actual Forerunner-Flood War and de "birth" of the Gravemind.
Thought the book tied in neatly with existing canon too.

Also: I think its kind of obvious the Prisoner will turn out to be the Gravemind. It just feels like that will be the case.
Completely agree with the very well described theory on top of the page.

As for the Humans.
I think there will be some sort of compromis.
See: Forerunners thought the punished and devolved all of humanity (which then was existing of multiple subspecies) which later evolved into a new branch of human forms.
They might have forgotten about Earth however, where humanity could evolve freely into -blam!- Sapiens.

Now, at the end of the Forerunner-Flood War they stumble upon Earth and learn about these new Humans they never saw before, and which are quite different from the ones in Cryptum (which would explain the suprise in the Terminals).

Again: purely theory and based upon my linking of facts, but 343 could in fact tie things up neatly like that...

Overall a great book tho, just finished it and trying to make sense of it all because man it dropped a lot of plottwists and bombs!

[Edited on 01.24.2011 11:19 AM PST]

  • 01.24.2011 11:09 AM PDT

the most interesting point in the book was the librarians ability to encode memory into humans genes. maybe humanity always had the ability subconsciously to utilize forerunner tech. which explains chiefs ability to fire the rings....good book though only thing is i sorta dont like the is mysticism surrounding the forerunners is gone and theyre not the benevolent beings we presumed they were....however how cool is it knowing we woulda wooped there butts if we dident have to deal with the flood at the same time....

  • 01.24.2011 4:33 PM PDT
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Anyone have any thoughts on this;

Page 208 Born has a brush with the domain and hears this -


They are about to give it powers it never had before
Just as they did ages ago
Those who are ignorant of history are doomed to repeat it


He says 'It might not have been a forerunner'

Could this be a precursor speaking with Born? Whats it referring to?


Also anyone notice a mistake on page 256?

They will come alive in an emergency. They can replace human commanders, if necessary

Surely this should be forerunner commanders? :-)


  • 01.25.2011 10:19 AM PDT

The Razor.

For the honour of the Mirratord.

Posted by: carpy444
Quick question, has anybody got any idea as to the UK release date? Hoping it's soon, or the same, but it never is :/


This is why you order it from Amazon. I have not seen it in any UK shops, and yet I got it from Amazon only a day or two after the release date.

I was completely shocked by the amount of information revealed. I grew to really like Bornstellar, and I could identify with him a lot with all of his issues with growing up and his desire for knowledge. I was really shocked by how the Didact effectively fused his consciousness with Bornstellar's after the brevet mutation; Bornstellar basically became the Didact. After a whole book of growing to like this character, I was really shocked by that, but it was a brilliant twist.

The confrontation between the might of the Forerunner fleet and the sentinels of Halo was the definition of epic. When the Forerunners managed to destroy one of the twelve rings, I could imagine it perfectly from the end of Halo: CE. Throughout the book I was wondering how the twelve original Halos would get whittled down to the seven we know, and as the seven not controlled by Bias were heading through the portal, I just loved it how everything was fitting together.

FANTASTIC book. Best of the Halo novels by far, and possibly one of the best tie-in books I've ever read.

For those wondering how the humans managed to defeat the Flood the first time, I believe it is because they infected a third of their own population with destructive genes and allowed them to be infected. These genes were then spread throughout the Flood, wiping them out. Or something.

  • 01.25.2011 11:24 AM PDT
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Posted by: DonVinzone1
As for the Humans.
I think there will be some sort of compromis.
See: Forerunners thought the punished and devolved all of humanity (which then was existing of multiple subspecies) which later evolved into a new branch of human forms.
They might have forgotten about Earth however, where humanity could evolve freely into -blam!- Sapiens.


Does anybody else find it incredibly hilarious that that got turned into -blam!- Sapeins?

Seriously though, just finished Cryptum. Amazing book. I don't really understand why people wanted more action from this title though. It was always put forward as the hard, conceptual sci-fi side of the Halo universe, whereas Eric Nylund and Karen Traviss's work is/is going to be the near-future action stuff.

I'd be very happy if the next two books by Greg Bear are anywhere near this good, he created a really amazing piece of work.

And Glory sounded really hot.

  • 03.05.2011 4:47 AM PDT

Never say you're bored. Never say you're satisfied with the world. Never stop doubting or questioning things. Always wonder. Always think. But always take time to drop your guard, you don't have to be smart all the time.

Does anybody know the page where the quote is "I am the last precursor." is?

  • 03.05.2011 4:54 AM PDT

http://www.halo-forum.com

Posted by: wildnuke
Does anybody know the page where the quote is "I am the last precursor." is?

Last page I think. Its in the last two or three anyway/

  • 03.05.2011 5:11 AM PDT