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Subject: Why does our community seem to be soo disfunctional?

MY LOVE FOR YOU IS LIKE A TRUCK...
Posted by: Langley
--on another note, I think MLG Chewhatever is an idiot.

Posted by: Achronos
There is a reason I am user ID 1 and my account creation date is before this site came online.

Please don't mistake my intentions, I am not saying that everyone on Bungie.net is a plight, but it seems that the negative people far outweigh the positive ones. It just seems weird to me that since we are all fans of the Halo series that there could be this much animosity amoung people with at least 1 common interest. The same goes with people who play on XBL, it seems to be permeating with people who's goal in life is to make other people miserable. You know the types, the cheaters, modders, delevelers, along with the foul-mouthed, trash talking, and inconsiderate players. The slogan "it's good to play together" has been trampled and forgotten it seems to me. I was so impressed during the FIGHT THE FLOOD campaign that people that play Halo could actually put aside their differences and strive towards a common goal of helping other people. Why can we the community not seem to help ourselves by being civil to each other? I play for fun, and I know that their are some people that play competively, but it still seems that it boils down to that we are both playing a game. I guess what I am asking is why does it seem that people cannot seem to play nice and make the game enjoyable for everyone? Wouldn't that in and of itself make the game more enjoyable for you too? I'm just sad to see that common sense and kindness go out the window when you press the power button on your xbox. Give me your ideas, rants, raves, whatever. Explain to me why you are a jerk, and you are more than happy to be one. Maybe if I could possibly understand your point of view, I wouldn't have to make a post like this. So, enlighten me. ~B.B.

  • 11.28.2005 7:46 PM PDT
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Does the phrase "Over 1 million members" give you any idea as to why there is...a quarrely amongst bungie goers? Contrary to popular belief, not everyone on this site likes Halo or Halo 2 and they would rather be negative then try and listen...or move on. Get used to it. I did awhile ago.

  • 11.28.2005 8:04 PM PDT

Posted by: Great_Pretender
"You don't ask to be in mod club. Mod club asks to be in you."
Posted by: Great_Pretender
Bungie.net explodes. Try it at home, kids*!

*Kids, don't try it at home.
-TGP-

Meh. Bad things always happen. You just have to deal with it.

  • 11.28.2005 8:09 PM PDT
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"Whatever exists, whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent. These anonymous creatures may seem little or nothing in the world. Yet the smallest crumb can devour us. Any smallest thing beneath yon rock out of men's knowing. Only nature can enslave man and only when the existence of each last entity is routed out and made to stand naked before him will he be properly suzerain of the earth."

Though it would be nice that the people who don't like Halo 2 would just not talk about it, I do wonder why they choose to.

But that is probably not the best thing to say. I would say it is about 60-40, with "negative" members at the higher percentage. I wouldn't really say "far outweighs."

  • 11.28.2005 8:10 PM PDT

"FOR YOUR OWN PROTECTION: Ensure brain is engaged before putting keyboard into gear."
Need a ninja?
Got a cheater? [email]h2cheats@microsoft.com[/email]
Forum Rules.
FAQ.
I'm certifiable.

This article (rather long) goes into how electronic communities work from a behavioral viewpoint... it makes for very interesting reading relating the points to here.

-- Steve was going to bring it to the attention of the other Ninjas anyway... so this thread is kinda propitious.

  • 11.28.2005 8:15 PM PDT
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All good points. There are 1,000,000+ members of bnet. Not all of them are gonna be friendly. It's just the way it is. Although, New Mombasa has greatly improved since the majority of the Halo 2 haters left. Driven out, by those who don't hate Halo 2. Many of these halo 2 lovers are flamers, unfortunately. While there were those on both sides who would make a concious effort to discuss the matter civily, most, did not.

This is just one example of this particular issue.

  • 11.28.2005 8:18 PM PDT
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the community will always ahve that 'broken' feeling.
despite many efforts or attempts, no matter what there will always be that group of ppl that like to be against everyone else.

though, i do feel like the septagon and everyone who frequents it(i like to include myself there), has a good sense of cummunity in itself.
everywhere else, either has its frequent posters, or is just very scattered...like zanzibar

  • 11.28.2005 8:23 PM PDT
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"Whatever exists, whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent. These anonymous creatures may seem little or nothing in the world. Yet the smallest crumb can devour us. Any smallest thing beneath yon rock out of men's knowing. Only nature can enslave man and only when the existence of each last entity is routed out and made to stand naked before him will he be properly suzerain of the earth."

Perhaps it was all a lack of proper communication. After all, so many people talk like, well, this:

...takl liek dis mb LOLOL ROFL

So maybe people didn't realize they were trying to discuss it civily, because no one knew what the other side was trying to say.

Then again, I don't hang out in New Mombasa. Don't ask me why, I just don't.

Anyways, back on topic.

As the others have said, it is really all about the number of members. Think of all of the members like apples. In a bushel there are some bad apples, and some good ones. When you take a hundred bushels, you get more bad apples, but more good ones. Just carry this idea out through with larger numbers, and it all fits in.

I try to ignore the very negative members, and help those who have a false preconception that can be fixed. I've learned to try to ignore as many as possible.

In the great words of Caboose: "I try not to remember the bad things about people."

Pax vobiscum.

  • 11.28.2005 8:26 PM PDT
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Posted by: Anton P Nym
This article (rather long) goes into how electronic communities work from a behavioral viewpoint... it makes for very interesting reading relating the points to here.

-- Steve was going to bring it to the attention of the other Ninjas anyway... so this thread is kinda propitious.


Holy long article!!! Phew! Man! I'll have to read that one later. When I'm not doing homework.

  • 11.28.2005 8:32 PM PDT

MY LOVE FOR YOU IS LIKE A TRUCK...
Posted by: Langley
--on another note, I think MLG Chewhatever is an idiot.

Posted by: Achronos
There is a reason I am user ID 1 and my account creation date is before this site came online.

I agree, the Septagon does seem to have people in it that actually make intelligent posts, I don't presume to add myself to that list, but I would hope others view me as such. The problem that I see, is that your apple analogy is flawed, well when it comes to comparing it to Bungie.net and XBL. It seems that there are more negative members then positive. And I understand that my views are somewhat biased because I understand the underlying pyschology behind it. It seems that there are more negative people, because those are the ones that stand out in my mind. Which is why "bad news" is so popular. People latch onto things like that. The shocking is the remembered. My issue comes that there just seems to be such an influx of negative people, and that ways on a system. I can't speak for Reginko, but I would speculate that this played some part in his untimely departure. I would just hate to see a great community such as this one be torn asunder. I have faith in the Bungie community, I guess that I'm just optimistic even though this post does have a very pessimistic tone to it. Thanks for the comments, and keep posting. ~B.B.

  • 11.28.2005 8:34 PM PDT

Discipline is my Sword,
Faith is my Shield,
Do not leap blindly into uncertainty,
And you may live to reap the rewards.

"The Important Thing Is To Never Stop Questioning,"

You know, the thing that really gets me is that every other day I see a Thread like this, about how the community is so bad, its decline, or how its went downhill. Every single one of them is an exact repeat of the one posted before, does that sound right? And in every single thread none of the members are actually trying to improve the forums and bring back that community feeling, they just want to -blam!- about how things have ended up.

I've got News for all of you: It ended up that way because of you! You who decided to do nothing. Sure there are spammers and flammers, but they are always dealt with. You want to complain about the community, how bout being a part of it first. Be a Forum Cop, who cares if someone calls you a Mod wannabe, get over it, they will. Report bad threads, dont complain about them or post in them. Let people know what they are doing wrong and how to fix it, and be nice about it, dont Flame them, not everyone is Internet or forum savy you know. You have to start somewhere.

You want to complain about how the Chapters have gone downhill? Well, why are you not in them, promoteing them, being a good member, setting an example? It's not all about running your own damn Chapter people, try to a member of one for a change. Dont join it to get Mods powers or gain Ranks or for popularity, join it to be a part of a community thats interested in what you are, and if those things happen to happen, so be it. I dont run a Chapter. There are still some great Chapters out there, instead of complaining about the ones you dont like, join the ones you do and get to work. A community feeling can only be achieved if there is a community there in the first place people.

Want an example: Take me. I am a Forum Cop, and am proud to say it, and in my (slightly over)year here I have only ever been insulted or called a Mod wannabe twice, and neither phased me. I dont reply to every Thread, its not about how much you post, its about quality. I reply in those topics I find interesting, and I try to spark good debate/discussion when I do, all the while expressing my views and opinions on the matter. Sure I'm not in a whole lot of Chapters, but I try to contribute to each one I am in at least once a week. I run a Bugnie fan site: BFO, who's goal is to bring the community, and all Bungie Fans together, whether they like Halo, Marathon, or PiD. We all have the love for the same thing here. I am sponsoring the Bungie Art Contest and The Official Fan Fic Chapter's Fan Fic Contest. Supplying money for prizes to both, and for free. Do I get anything out of all this? NO.

But I do it. Why? Because I'm still a part of the Community, and I'm willing to donate my extras, whether it be time, money, or both, to keeping it alive and thriving. I do all of ths and the onyl real complaint I have about the community is threads like this: people complaining about the state of the Community.

To put it in simple Terms: If you want to complain about the Community, I suggest you get up and join it first!

-snowmanaxt

  • 11.28.2005 8:36 PM PDT
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Wow, that article is incredibly deep and yet easily understood. I like this one:
People who work on social software are closer in spirit to economists and political scientists than they are to people making compilers. They both look like programming, but when you're dealing with groups of people as one of your run-time phenomena, that is an incredibly different practice.

Groups of people as run-time phenomena. I like that. We as a group are just a like a collection of inputs into a spread sheet. What is the output though? Are we the output? If the desired effect of this communities software is to promote an intelligent discussion among fans of Bungie games then we are the output. Since we are both the input and the output then there is a feedback loop. That means that in some way this forum software is changing us. Since it is trying to make us all have good discussions doesn't that mean it is trying to improve us. Does this mean that participating in a well designed forum is a form of self improvement?

That is pretty cool. How did you come a cross this article?

[Edited on 11/28/2005]

  • 11.28.2005 8:40 PM PDT

MY LOVE FOR YOU IS LIKE A TRUCK...
Posted by: Langley
--on another note, I think MLG Chewhatever is an idiot.

Posted by: Achronos
There is a reason I am user ID 1 and my account creation date is before this site came online.

To Snowmanaxt: Wow, you presume to know me, yet you know nothing about me. I am trying to make the forums a better place for Halo fans. I like the forums, chapters, community, etc, which you claim that I care so little for. I make posts, most of the time trying to continue good conversations, and tell people when they are having bad ones. My goal was not to criticize the community, only to ask why it seems that there are so many bad members, and what we could do to help elevate the problem. I guess my biggest issue comes down to how can HALO people seem to be soo giving one minute, ie. the FTF campaign and Halo.org auction, and then the next minute bringing it down? That is where my key issue lies, not with the community itself. And I post on this website that I care alot for almost every day, and you're right, it's not about quantity but quality, and I would say that I have never made a post that was not appropriate or degraded this fair community. That's it...I'm done justifying myself to someone who will obviously jump to conclusions so quickly. If you want to jump to conclusions, buy the mat and the game. ~B.B.

[Edited on 11/28/2005]

  • 11.28.2005 8:47 PM PDT
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Hey, snowmanaxt, I thought you gave up that account for the one named "Ancient." Or did I miss something? I'm so confused....

But anywho. You bring up some good points. I totally agree with you. The best way to fix the community, is to lead by example. Help people with problems, such as misunderstanding the rules. Contribute. Don't post unless you can actually contribute to the conversation. Therein lies the key.

That brings up the issue of why people in the Flood are stereotyped as stupid, and idiotic. Because they post a lot, but don't always have something useful to say. I know, as I frequent the Flood quite a bit.

This is why the Septagon is my favorite forum. All the people who frequent it try to say something meaningful in every post. When someone asks a question, no one replies with "I dunno" or "Gosh, I can't believe you don't know that! You're stupider than Caboose!" Get what I mean?

  • 11.28.2005 8:48 PM PDT

Since you were angered I took down the mom joke Berserker. I agree with snowmanaxt, stop complaining about problems and do something about it.

[Edited on 11/29/2005]

  • 11.28.2005 8:49 PM PDT
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"Whatever exists, whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent. These anonymous creatures may seem little or nothing in the world. Yet the smallest crumb can devour us. Any smallest thing beneath yon rock out of men's knowing. Only nature can enslave man and only when the existence of each last entity is routed out and made to stand naked before him will he be properly suzerain of the earth."

I try my best to report threads and point people in the right direction. I do wish there was a system that puts which mods are on a certain forum so that we can find them. I hate trying to find Yoozel and telling him there is a thread that is against the rules and showing him when VII Toast is online in a different forum and about to take care of it. It gets rather annoying.

But, I try my best...

There are people and groups dedicated to trying to improve the community in this way. I am part of one of them. And I am proud. I try my best to help improve the community.

As for the forums going downhill:

Hmmm...

I think that if they do go downhill, then people will start speaking up and trying to help bring it back up. I know that I will be there to the end. Even if all of the other mods leave like Reiginko did, and the forum comes to flaming with a few good posts, I will be there, with all of the rest, to try and bring it back. And if it can't be saved, I will throw on my jacket, hold open the door for the other good members and mods, turn out the light, and leave the flamers to use the light of their posts to guide them.

  • 11.28.2005 8:51 PM PDT
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Snowman is right, instead of talk about how bad of a state the community is in we could be there trying to help it. This is our community, every forum, every member is a part of that. We are the only people who can make it better. Sure the Bungie and the moderators have the authority, but we could never expect them to change so many people. It starts with us, go create a thread the encourages good discussion, and if someone flames you, report them. I'm sure after awhile they will quite down. Go join chapters, help them grow and become successful. Remember, only we can change the community for the better.

  • 11.28.2005 8:53 PM PDT

Discipline is my Sword,
Faith is my Shield,
Do not leap blindly into uncertainty,
And you may live to reap the rewards.

"The Important Thing Is To Never Stop Questioning,"

BerserkerBarage my post was not directed at you or any one person, it was a general statement to all. I thought that was clear but I guess not, so I am saying it now: My previous post was not directed at any mone person or groups of persons, and in no way am I trying to single anyone out. It is a general post.

  • 11.28.2005 8:54 PM PDT

MY LOVE FOR YOU IS LIKE A TRUCK...
Posted by: Langley
--on another note, I think MLG Chewhatever is an idiot.

Posted by: Achronos
There is a reason I am user ID 1 and my account creation date is before this site came online.

I understand that, and I'm not just saying that the community is in disarray, we should stand idly by and let it go to hell in a handbasket. I say that the positive members should try to help out the people that flame, and off-post, and the such. That's why I feel that the Karma system would be a good idea. I am not complaining about the community to just complain, I would love to make it a better place, I am just looking for other people to help me do it. Give me some ideas, that's what I'm looking for. Just don't say, "don't criticize the problem". I am trying to find solutions. I am trying to lead by example just like a lot of other people are. That's it, nothing more.

  • 11.28.2005 8:59 PM PDT
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"Whatever exists, whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent. These anonymous creatures may seem little or nothing in the world. Yet the smallest crumb can devour us. Any smallest thing beneath yon rock out of men's knowing. Only nature can enslave man and only when the existence of each last entity is routed out and made to stand naked before him will he be properly suzerain of the earth."

Actually, I think what snowman, other members, and I do, which is help the mods out by reporting threads and by pointing people in the right direction (for instance, giving those who advertise in the wrong forum a link to the Classifieds), is a pretty good solution.

  • 11.28.2005 9:05 PM PDT

Posted by: Great_Pretender
"You don't ask to be in mod club. Mod club asks to be in you."
Posted by: Great_Pretender
Bungie.net explodes. Try it at home, kids*!

*Kids, don't try it at home.
-TGP-

Posted by: Anton P Nym
This article (rather long) goes into how electronic communities work from a behavioral viewpoint... it makes for very interesting reading relating the points to here.

-- Steve was going to bring it to the attention of the other Ninjas anyway... so this thread is kinda propitious.


Oh. My. Gawd. That is long. I'll read it tomorrow when I'm not half asleep.

  • 11.28.2005 9:36 PM PDT
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Posted by: Mabian
Actually, I think what snowman, other members, and I do, which is help the mods out by reporting threads and by pointing people in the right direction (for instance, giving those who advertise in the wrong forum a link to the Classifieds), is a pretty good solution.


This issue in this thread inspired me to write a short essay on playing "Forum Cop." I'd like all your opinions.

Linkage:
http://www.bungie.net/Forums/posts.aspx?postID=5498681

  • 11.28.2005 9:37 PM PDT

I'm not that active, but never dead.

First of all, that topic is nice, but please don't advertise other topics.

Now, back on topic.

Why are people idiots?

At first I thought it was age, but I joined when I was 16 and haven't changed much, as well, just look at TGP. You don't have the young to be an idoit, in many causes, it's the oppisite.

Then I thought, join date! They just don't know what Bungie is all about, but snowmanext, GodsProphet, and other's that joined after the New Hotness and Halo 2 proved me wrong.

The real answer is: People are idiots becuase they have the power to be. You can sign up, make an identiy, and piss people off for free. It doesn't last long, but it doesn't cost anything.

The problem lies in the fact that the group is it's own worst enemy. Bungie.net isn't going to fall to hackers, but it does hurt from flamers. Hopefully the Karma system will be a way to put people's reputations on paper, in a manner of speaking.

I hope it does.

  • 11.29.2005 3:39 AM PDT

http://www.bungie.net/fanclub/atticus/Group/GroupHome.aspx

That is so weird that this came up. I was talkin with snow about the decline of community feeling and such just yesterday. I think a tad before he posted.

I agree with him 100%. I love b.net. Plain and simple. And I feel like its losing a lot of its luster today. But you dont see me making posts about it or leaving altogether. No, instead Im joining any group with the prospect of improving teh 7th in anyway. Im trying to help out whereever I can because I dont want to see this die or suffer anymore. The older community ROCKED! and I would love to have that feeling back, but its near impossible. The closest thing to it is The Septagon, hence the reason I am always here.

We need to spread love through the forums. Be nice to those who arent nice to you. It works. They cant continue to say they hate you and hope you die when You are 100% genuinly nice and kind. Being angry at a flammer or spamer just feeds them. Replying to thier topics feeds them. If someone has a post in the wrong forum, post and let them know, then report it. Dont post the same thing someone else did, its just nice to have at least 1 post so people no its from a diff forum an can understand why this guy was being flammed and such elsewhere.. Or dont post at all and just report it, if no one has replied, dont bother until its moved.

Its not hard to help. Every little thing counts. Be kind to your enemies and love thy nieghbor. Please. Stop making groups and join then (as snow said) get involved with anything going on in the community. Try to bring forum togetherness back to b.net. It needs it.

  • 11.29.2005 5:55 AM PDT

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