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Subject: Thel and Rtas vs Six and Emile

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Posted by: Sparty Boy 117
let's see...an elite who matches the skill of chief, and the former specops commander of the covenant, versus two spartan IIIs? How is this even a fight?


There would be a magic oil tank that crushes him when shot at.

  • 01.08.2011 12:14 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: Jonzx5
I think it's safe to assume that being infected by the flood will impeded the user's ability to make tactical decisions.

The Flood is the user though. Bero no longer exists. It is the Flood that is making the tactical decisions with all of Bero's knowledge and skills now.

Posted by: Jonzx5
You mentioned that the Halo Encyclopedia says that Rtas's swordsmanship being unparalleled, I would just like to mention that the Halo Encyclopedia lists the Rogue and the Scout armor as the same thing. The Halo Encyclopedia also says that a Brute Major is a Brute Minor, and the color of a Brute Ultra's armor is cited to be cyan, when in reality it is violet. I'm not completely disreguarding the Halo Encyclopedia as a valid source, I am simply saying that we should not take what it says word for word, as obvious errors are present in it.

These things are only errors because there exists information that was created in the past that is contradictory to what is presented in the Encyclopaedia now. If there exists no information on a subject, which is then expanded upon in the Encyclopaedia, then there is absolutely no point in discriminating it. We would have no idea of knowing whether or not that was the writers intention. Seeing as there exists previous facts that are more in support of that claim than in disregard for it, it looks quite obvious that it was 343i's intention to have it so. If there exists something else that says otherwise about Rtas, then it would be a different story.

Posted by: Jonzx5
I would just like to say again, that if a 12 year old Spartan-III in SPI Armor can overpower and defeat an experienced Spec-Ops Elite in Hand to Hand combat when the Elite had a SWORD (Ghosts of Onyx), It would be safe to assume that a fully grown, top of the line Spartan-III in strength, reflex, speed, and protection enhancing MJOLNIR Armor can defeat Rtas, or Thel.

Yes, Page 21 of Ghosts of Onyx.

Not stated as being a Spec-Ops Elite, just a Covenant Elite. He also stood with a stance with footing that was too wide whilst holding a gun in one hand and a sword in the other, aka poor swordsmanship.

  • 01.08.2011 12:28 PM PDT

Orders of canon: Bungie, books, Halo Wars (Barely canon, as an arbiter gets killed by a human!?)

Please stop saying the books canon is right, as bungies canon is.

  • 01.08.2011 12:35 PM PDT

Is Rtas the shipmaster from Halo 3? Sorry for my ignorance.

  • 01.08.2011 12:38 PM PDT

By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.

Posted by: Etzudee
Orders of canon: Bungie, books, Halo Wars (Barely canon, as an arbiter gets killed by a human!?)

Please stop saying the books canon is right, as bungies canon is.


Er... no.

Everything you've said is completely canon, the only time the games take priority is when there's a discrepancy.

"as an arbiter gets killed by a human!?"

What are you smoking?

I will say again, the books and the games are of the same canon hierarchy. Just because you have your own perceptions of what is or what isn't canon, doesn't mean you're correct, stop letting this affect your judgement.

  • 01.08.2011 12:42 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: Etzudee
Orders of canon: Bungie, books, Halo Wars (Barely canon, as an arbiter gets killed by a human!?)

Please stop saying the books canon is right, as bungies canon is.

Bungie's canon and Book canon were largely synonymous, derp. Bungie no longer owns the Halo IP, so what they say from here on out is irrelevant. 343 Industries oversee the franchise now.

Halo Wars is just as canon as any other game. Elites can be killed by normal Humans. They are overrated. Having armour that boosts your strength and agility tends to help a lot. Arbiter did not have it. In any case, he was over-confident and short-sighted.

Posted by: silentsnake456
Is Rtas the shipmaster from Halo 3? Sorry for my ignorance.

Yes.

[Edited on 01.08.2011 12:57 PM PST]

  • 01.08.2011 12:46 PM PDT
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Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: Jonzx5
I think it's safe to assume that being infected by the flood will impeded the user's ability to make tactical decisions.

The Flood is the user though. Bero no longer exists. It is the Flood that is making the tactical decisions with all of Bero's knowledge and skills now.

Posted by: Jonzx5
You mentioned that the Halo Encyclopedia says that Rtas's swordsmanship being unparalleled, I would just like to mention that the Halo Encyclopedia lists the Rogue and the Scout armor as the same thing. The Halo Encyclopedia also says that a Brute Major is a Brute Minor, and the color of a Brute Ultra's armor is cited to be cyan, when in reality it is violet. I'm not completely disreguarding the Halo Encyclopedia as a valid source, I am simply saying that we should not take what it says word for word, as obvious errors are present in it.

These things are only errors because there exists information that was created in the past that is contradictory to what is presented in the Encyclopaedia now. If there exists no information on a subject, which is then expanded upon in the Encyclopaedia, then there is absolutely no point in discriminating it. We would have no idea of knowing whether or not that was the writers intention. Seeing as there exists previous facts that are more in support of that claim than in disregard for it, it looks quite obvious that it was 343i's intention to have it so. If there exists something else that says otherwise about Rtas, then it would be a different story.

Posted by: Jonzx5
I would just like to say again, that if a 12 year old Spartan-III in SPI Armor can overpower and defeat an experienced Spec-Ops Elite in Hand to Hand combat when the Elite had a SWORD (Ghosts of Onyx), It would be safe to assume that a fully grown, top of the line Spartan-III in strength, reflex, speed, and protection enhancing MJOLNIR Armor can defeat Rtas, or Thel.

Yes, Page 21 of Ghosts of Onyx.

Not stated as being a Spec-Ops Elite, just a Covenant Elite. He also stood with a stance with footing that was too wide whilst holding a gun in one hand and a sword in the other, aka poor swordsmanship.


Fair enough, lets say that the Encyclopedia's statement is accurate, and Rtas really is the greatest swordsman in the Covenant, on par with Thel. Now, how can we conclude who would win if Rtas fought Emile? Well, we really don't get much info on Rtas besides that he is an unparelleled swordsman. If we assume that he is equally skilled with Thel, than we can use Thel's encounter's to judge Rtas.

The only time when Thel had an encounter with a Spartan was during the Cole Protocol. Jai engaged Thel and his Zealot squad in hand to hand combat, and left Thel with broken ribs and his Zealot's stunned. Jai left without a scratch. Now other's have mentioned in this thread that NOBLE Team Spartan-III's are identical to Spartan-II's as far as physical characteristics go, so it's safe to replace Jai with Emile in this confrontation. Jai was also wearing Mark IV armor, which was significantly less advanced than the Mark V that Emile wears, it lacks Energy Shielding as well as other things.

If an unshielded Jai can take on a fully shielded, sword wielding Thel, AND two Zealots in hand to hand combat, and leave Thel with broken ribs and his Zealot's stunned, it is safe to assume that Emile WITH energy Shields can defeat Thel in hand to hand combat, which means that Rtas, Thel's equivilant in skills, would also be defeated by Emile.

As for Ghosts of Onyx, I clearly recall the Elite being explicitly stated as being a Spec-Ops class. So if a Spec-Ops Elite with a sword and a pistol can be defeated like that by a 12 year old Spartan-III in SPI Armor, than lets say:

Emile = Fully grown version of 12 year old Spartan-III in SPI.
Rtas = Fully grown version of Spec-Ops Elite.

You tell me what happens.

  • 01.08.2011 12:58 PM PDT

By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.

Fair enough, lets say that the Encyclopedia's statement is accurate, and Rtas really is the greatest swordsman in the Covenant, on par with Thel. Now, how can we conclude who would win if Rtas fought Emile? Well, we really don't get much info on Rtas besides that he is an unparelleled swordsman. If we assume that he is equally skilled with Thel, than we can use Thel's encounter's to judge Rtas.

No, you can't. Your argument there is discredited even further by using the word "assume".

If Rtas is capable of being the sole surviving member of a squad of Spec-Ops Sangheili in the midst of a mass Flood incursion, then doing it again on Threshold, then single-handedly retaking a Cruiser controlled by Brutes then he can take down Emile with ease.

A single Brute almost killed John the first time he encountered one whilst he had Mark V armour. If Rtas is capable of eliminating an entire Cruiser's crew comprised of Brutes then why wouldn't he be able to kill a Spartan-III who thinks his shotgun is a sniper rifle?

Emile is cocky, arrogant and one-dimensional, he'd not last 5 minutes against Rtas - who has constantly proven himself to be a strategic thinker, unparalleled swordsman, incredible fighter and always survives against the worst odds.

  • 01.08.2011 1:33 PM PDT
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"Time was your ally human. But now it has abandoned you. The Forerunners....have returned. And this tomb... is now yours". - The Didact


Posted by: Jonzx5

Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: Jonzx5
I think it's safe to assume that being infected by the flood will impeded the user's ability to make tactical decisions.

The Flood is the user though. Bero no longer exists. It is the Flood that is making the tactical decisions with all of Bero's knowledge and skills now.

Posted by: Jonzx5
You mentioned that the Halo Encyclopedia says that Rtas's swordsmanship being unparalleled, I would just like to mention that the Halo Encyclopedia lists the Rogue and the Scout armor as the same thing. The Halo Encyclopedia also says that a Brute Major is a Brute Minor, and the color of a Brute Ultra's armor is cited to be cyan, when in reality it is violet. I'm not completely disreguarding the Halo Encyclopedia as a valid source, I am simply saying that we should not take what it says word for word, as obvious errors are present in it.

These things are only errors because there exists information that was created in the past that is contradictory to what is presented in the Encyclopaedia now. If there exists no information on a subject, which is then expanded upon in the Encyclopaedia, then there is absolutely no point in discriminating it. We would have no idea of knowing whether or not that was the writers intention. Seeing as there exists previous facts that are more in support of that claim than in disregard for it, it looks quite obvious that it was 343i's intention to have it so. If there exists something else that says otherwise about Rtas, then it would be a different story.

Posted by: Jonzx5
I would just like to say again, that if a 12 year old Spartan-III in SPI Armor can overpower and defeat an experienced Spec-Ops Elite in Hand to Hand combat when the Elite had a SWORD (Ghosts of Onyx), It would be safe to assume that a fully grown, top of the line Spartan-III in strength, reflex, speed, and protection enhancing MJOLNIR Armor can defeat Rtas, or Thel.

Yes, Page 21 of Ghosts of Onyx.

Not stated as being a Spec-Ops Elite, just a Covenant Elite. He also stood with a stance with footing that was too wide whilst holding a gun in one hand and a sword in the other, aka poor swordsmanship.


Fair enough, lets say that the Encyclopedia's statement is accurate, and Rtas really is the greatest swordsman in the Covenant, on par with Thel. Now, how can we conclude who would win if Rtas fought Emile? Well, we really don't get much info on Rtas besides that he is an unparelleled swordsman. If we assume that he is equally skilled with Thel, than we can use Thel's encounter's to judge Rtas.

The only time when Thel had an encounter with a Spartan was during the Cole Protocol. Jai engaged Thel and his Zealot squad in hand to hand combat, and left Thel with broken ribs and his Zealot's stunned. Jai left without a scratch. Now other's have mentioned in this thread that NOBLE Team Spartan-III's are identical to Spartan-II's as far as physical characteristics go, so it's safe to replace Jai with Emile in this confrontation. Jai was also wearing Mark IV armor, which was significantly less advanced than the Mark V that Emile wears, it lacks Energy Shielding as well as other things.

If an unshielded Jai can take on a fully shielded, sword wielding Thel, AND two Zealots in hand to hand combat, and leave Thel with broken ribs and his Zealot's stunned, it is safe to assume that Emile WITH energy Shields can defeat Thel in hand to hand combat, which means that Rtas, Thel's equivilant in skills, would also be defeated by Emile.

As for Ghosts of Onyx, I clearly recall the Elite being explicitly stated as being a Spec-Ops class. So if a Spec-Ops Elite with a sword and a pistol can be defeated like that by a 12 year old Spartan-III in SPI Armor, than lets say:

Emile = Fully grown version of 12 year old Spartan-III in SPI.
Rtas = Fully grown version of Spec-Ops Elite.

You tell me what happens.


That was Thel's first encounter with a spartan,he probably though the spartan is weak as other humans and was so shocked how strong Jai is.

Now Thel knows what sII's are capable off as he fought alongside one badass sII(John 117) who puts all of Noble team into shame.

-Who says Tom fought a specops elite?Besides skill among the sangheili depends on every indivudual

Exemple:

-Zuka:coward
-Lodamee:Killed once a spartan and defeated another one
-Vadamee:Alien version of the chief

..

Note:Rtas has an infinite active camouflage and could sneak behind Emile and kill him

Emile failed to notice a sneaking non camouflaged elite.Emile would be stabbed like Ronald got stabbed in halo evolutions

Then both Thel and Rtas will kill Six,they aren't stupid.Thel will take cover and surpruss six with his carbine or plasma rifkle while rtas sneaks again.

  • 01.08.2011 1:37 PM PDT
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"Time was your ally human. But now it has abandoned you. The Forerunners....have returned. And this tomb... is now yours". - The Didact

Emile=fail

Noble six is once again doomed by the stupidy of Emile

  • 01.08.2011 1:38 PM PDT
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Posted by: ajw34307
Fair enough, lets say that the Encyclopedia's statement is accurate, and Rtas really is the greatest swordsman in the Covenant, on par with Thel. Now, how can we conclude who would win if Rtas fought Emile? Well, we really don't get much info on Rtas besides that he is an unparelleled swordsman. If we assume that he is equally skilled with Thel, than we can use Thel's encounter's to judge Rtas.

No, you can't. Your argument there is discredited even further by using the word "assume".

If Rtas is capable of being the sole surviving member of a squad of Spec-Ops Sangheili in the midst of a mass Flood incursion, then doing it again on Threshold, then single-handedly retaking a Cruiser controlled by Brutes then he can take down Emile with ease.

A single Brute almost killed John the first time he encountered one whilst he had Mark V armour. If Rtas is capable of eliminating an entire Cruiser's crew comprised of Brutes then why wouldn't he be able to kill a Spartan-III who thinks his shotgun is a sniper rifle?

Emile is cocky, arrogant and one-dimensional, he'd not last 5 minutes against Rtas - who has constantly proven himself to be a strategic thinker, unparalleled swordsman, incredible fighter and always survives against the worst odds.


I used the word "assume" because we have no encounters between Emile and Rtas, technically, everyone in this thread is "assuming", because this encounter never actually took place.

I think you are getting confused between gameplay and "reality". If you look at it through a gameplay perspective when Emile attempts to snipe people with his shotgun in campaign, then I guess this argument is not worth arguing because both Emile and Rtas are both clearly invincible....

About John, First of all, he had Mark VI Armor on. Second of all, John got into the Brutes confort zone when he engaged it in a wrestling match. The outcome of Spartan's vs Brute's when Fred killed a Brute with his bare hands in First Strike. Also, if you've read Halo: Uprising, you would see John engage an entire room full of Brutes single handedly. In the next panel of the comic, you see John standing over a room full of dead Brute bodies.

Why did you even bring up the Brute encounter? Would you like me to bring up every encounter Spartan's had with Elite's?

Here are just a few:
*Kelly taking on 3 Elites hand to hand, breaking ones wrist, taking his sword, and cutting 2 in half with one swing (Ghosts of Onyx)
*John punching a few Elites to death (The Flood)
*A 12 year old Spartan-III in SPI Armor beating a Sword wielding Spec Ops Elite in hand to hand combat (Ghosts of Onyx)
*Jai taking on Thel and two zealots hand to hand, leaving Thel with broken ribs and the Zealots stunned
*3 Spartan-II's from Red Team engaging over 20 Elite Honor Guards and defeating them all, some hand to hand combat was envolved (Halo Wars)
*Noble 6 taking on an Ultra, Zealot, Field Marshal, and a General in hand to hand combat (Halo: Reach).

Need me to go on?

  • 01.08.2011 1:44 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: Jonzx5
As for Ghosts of Onyx, I clearly recall the Elite being explicitly stated as being a Spec-Ops class.

Page 21.

I am sitting here right now looking at the paragraph. It is not stated as being any specific classification of Elite whatsoever. Perhaps someone else may wish to cross reference.

Posted by: Jonzx5
You tell me what happens.

My initial post in this thread; that it could swing either way depending on the setting and other uncontrollable factors. I am just saying that they are not the usual bog standard Elites in the way that they charge in, making errors and placing honour above all else.

  • 01.08.2011 1:46 PM PDT

By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.

Ghosts of Onyx, page 21:

"He spun around, his MA5K leveled-and found himself face-to-face with a Covenant Elite, its jaw mandibles split in mimicry of an impossibly large human grin.

I'd post the rest but simply copying from the book would be very mundane, but at no point does it state the Elite's rank.

  • 01.08.2011 1:50 PM PDT
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Posted by: hotshot revan II

Posted by: Jonzx5

Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: Jonzx5
I think it's safe to assume that being infected by the flood will impeded the user's ability to make tactical decisions.

The Flood is the user though. Bero no longer exists. It is the Flood that is making the tactical decisions with all of Bero's knowledge and skills now.

Posted by: Jonzx5
You mentioned that the Halo Encyclopedia says that Rtas's swordsmanship being unparalleled, I would just like to mention that the Halo Encyclopedia lists the Rogue and the Scout armor as the same thing. The Halo Encyclopedia also says that a Brute Major is a Brute Minor, and the color of a Brute Ultra's armor is cited to be cyan, when in reality it is violet. I'm not completely disreguarding the Halo Encyclopedia as a valid source, I am simply saying that we should not take what it says word for word, as obvious errors are present in it.

These things are only errors because there exists information that was created in the past that is contradictory to what is presented in the Encyclopaedia now. If there exists no information on a subject, which is then expanded upon in the Encyclopaedia, then there is absolutely no point in discriminating it. We would have no idea of knowing whether or not that was the writers intention. Seeing as there exists previous facts that are more in support of that claim than in disregard for it, it looks quite obvious that it was 343i's intention to have it so. If there exists something else that says otherwise about Rtas, then it would be a different story.

Posted by: Jonzx5
I would just like to say again, that if a 12 year old Spartan-III in SPI Armor can overpower and defeat an experienced Spec-Ops Elite in Hand to Hand combat when the Elite had a SWORD (Ghosts of Onyx), It would be safe to assume that a fully grown, top of the line Spartan-III in strength, reflex, speed, and protection enhancing MJOLNIR Armor can defeat Rtas, or Thel.

Yes, Page 21 of Ghosts of Onyx.

Not stated as being a Spec-Ops Elite, just a Covenant Elite. He also stood with a stance with footing that was too wide whilst holding a gun in one hand and a sword in the other, aka poor swordsmanship.


Fair enough, lets say that the Encyclopedia's statement is accurate, and Rtas really is the greatest swordsman in the Covenant, on par with Thel. Now, how can we conclude who would win if Rtas fought Emile? Well, we really don't get much info on Rtas besides that he is an unparelleled swordsman. If we assume that he is equally skilled with Thel, than we can use Thel's encounter's to judge Rtas.

The only time when Thel had an encounter with a Spartan was during the Cole Protocol. Jai engaged Thel and his Zealot squad in hand to hand combat, and left Thel with broken ribs and his Zealot's stunned. Jai left without a scratch. Now other's have mentioned in this thread that NOBLE Team Spartan-III's are identical to Spartan-II's as far as physical characteristics go, so it's safe to replace Jai with Emile in this confrontation. Jai was also wearing Mark IV armor, which was significantly less advanced than the Mark V that Emile wears, it lacks Energy Shielding as well as other things.

If an unshielded Jai can take on a fully shielded, sword wielding Thel, AND two Zealots in hand to hand combat, and leave Thel with broken ribs and his Zealot's stunned, it is safe to assume that Emile WITH energy Shields can defeat Thel in hand to hand combat, which means that Rtas, Thel's equivilant in skills, would also be defeated by Emile.

As for Ghosts of Onyx, I clearly recall the Elite being explicitly stated as being a Spec-Ops class. So if a Spec-Ops Elite with a sword and a pistol can be defeated like that by a 12 year old Spartan-III in SPI Armor, than lets say:

Emile = Fully grown version of 12 year old Spartan-III in SPI.
Rtas = Fully grown version of Spec-Ops Elite.

You tell me what happens.


That was Thel's first encounter with a spartan,he probably though the spartan is weak as other humans and was so shocked how strong Jai is.

Now Thel knows what sII's are capable off as he fought alongside one badass sII(John 117) who puts all of Noble team into shame.

-Who says Tom fought a specops elite?Besides skill among the sangheili depends on every indivudual

Exemple:

-Zuka:coward
-Lodamee:Killed once a spartan and defeated another one
-Vadamee:Alien version of the chief

..

Note:Rtas has an infinite active camouflage and could sneak behind Emile and kill him

Emile failed to notice a sneaking non camouflaged elite.Emile would be stabbed like Ronald got stabbed in halo evolutions

Then both Thel and Rtas will kill Six,they aren't stupid.Thel will take cover and surpruss six with his carbine or plasma rifkle while rtas sneaks again.


That sneaking up and impaling thing that Elite's tend to do only works if their opponent doesn't KNOW that they are there. In other words, if Rtas activated his camo after he and Emile came face to face, It would't work very well. On the other hand, if the combatants don't actually see eachother face to face before engaging, than it is possible. But then again, that's not a fair arrangement for the fight.

  • 01.08.2011 2:02 PM PDT

By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.

Posted by: Jonzx5
I used the word "assume" because we have no encounters between Emile and Rtas, technically, everyone in this thread is "assuming", because this encounter never actually took place.

I think you are getting confused between gameplay and "reality". If you look at it through a gameplay perspective when Emile attempts to snipe people with his shotgun in campaign, then I guess this argument is not worth arguing because both Emile and Rtas are both clearly invincible....


No, I am not confusing gameplay and canon.

About John, First of all, he had Mark VI Armor on.

No he didn't. He first encounters a Brute in First Strike, he still has Mark V because it's set just after Halo CE, he doesn't get Mark VI until he returns to Earth.

Second of all, John got into the Brutes confort zone when he engaged it in a wrestling match.

A Brute's comfort zone would be the same as Emile's, they are both close-quarters fighters. Also, John is much less arrogant than Emile and still ended up getting his arse handed to him. He was defeated by Thel 'Lodamee in a duel in about a minute too and 'Lodamee is simply a Major.

The outcome of Spartan's vs Brute's when Fred killed a Brute with his bare hands in First Strike. Also, if you've read Halo: Uprising, you would see John engage an entire room full of Brutes single handedly. In the next panel of the comic, you see John standing over a room full of dead Brute bodies.

You may also recall John getting taken prisoner and interrogated by a Chieftain. The only reason he managed to escape was because of the plasma grenade that the Chieftain failed to strip him of. He's beaten off a ledge by a Jackal too.


*A 12 year old Spartan-III in SPI Armor beating a Sword wielding Spec Ops Elite in hand to hand combat (Ghosts of Onyx)


Stop making things up, the Elite's rank is never said.

*Jai taking on Thel and two zealots hand to hand, leaving Thel with broken ribs and the Zealots stunned

Only 1 Zealot actually, Zhar was the only Zealot with Thel.

*3 Spartan-II's from Red Team engaging over 20 Elite Honor Guards and defeating them all, some hand to hand combat was envolved (Halo Wars)

That scene was unrealistic in terms of canon and massively overplayed. Those Elites were extremely stupid.

*Noble 6 taking on an Ultra, Zealot, Field Marshal, and a General in hand to hand combat (Halo: Reach).

Also overplayed and canonically inccurate. He killed the General by barging into it, then managed to kill two other assailants by dual wielding an AR and pistol whilst mortally wounded.

*

That sneaking up and impaling thing that Elite's tend to do only works if their opponent doesn't KNOW that they are there. In other words, if Rtas activated his camo after he and Emile came face to face, It would't work very well. On the other hand, if the combatants don't actually see eachother face to face before engaging, than it is possible. But then again, that's not a fair arrangement for the fight.

Seemed to work fine for Ripa when he fought Sergeant Forge.

Also, of course Emile saw them coming, the Phantom was right above him and well within his line of sight. He killed one, showed his arrogance by trying to get another to attack and failed due to a fatal lapse in situational awareness.

You must be joking if you think that they're going to greet each other and shake hands first. Camouflage is one of the many advantages Rtas has over Emile, of course he's going to use it because he knows what Spartans are capable of.

[Edited on 01.08.2011 2:10 PM PST]

  • 01.08.2011 2:05 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: Jonzx5
Jai left without a scratch.

How was this arrived at? That scene was from Thel's point of view.

  • 01.08.2011 2:23 PM PDT
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Posted by: ajw34307
Posted by: Jonzx5
I used the word "assume" because we have no encounters between Emile and Rtas, technically, everyone in this thread is "assuming", because this encounter never actually took place.

I think you are getting confused between gameplay and "reality". If you look at it through a gameplay perspective when Emile attempts to snipe people with his shotgun in campaign, then I guess this argument is not worth arguing because both Emile and Rtas are both clearly invincible....


No, I am not confusing gameplay and canon.

About John, First of all, he had Mark VI Armor on.

No he didn't. He first encounters a Brute in First Strike, he still has Mark V because it's set just after Halo CE, he doesn't get Mark VI until he returns to Earth.

Second of all, John got into the Brutes confort zone when he engaged it in a wrestling match.

A Brute's comfort zone would be the same as Emile's, they are both close-quarters fighters. Also, John is much less arrogant than Emile and still ended up getting his arse handed to him. He was defeated by Thel 'Lodamee in a duel in about a minute too and 'Lodamee is simply a Major.

The outcome of Spartan's vs Brute's when Fred killed a Brute with his bare hands in First Strike. Also, if you've read Halo: Uprising, you would see John engage an entire room full of Brutes single handedly. In the next panel of the comic, you see John standing over a room full of dead Brute bodies.

You may also recall John getting taken prisoner and interrogated by a Chieftain. The only reason he managed to escape was because of the plasma grenade that the Chieftain failed to strip him of. He's beaten off a ledge by a Jackal too.


*A 12 year old Spartan-III in SPI Armor beating a Sword wielding Spec Ops Elite in hand to hand combat (Ghosts of Onyx)


Stop making things up, the Elite's rank is never said.

*Jai taking on Thel and two zealots hand to hand, leaving Thel with broken ribs and the Zealots stunned

Only 1 Zealot actually, Zhar was the only Zealot with Thel.

*3 Spartan-II's from Red Team engaging over 20 Elite Honor Guards and defeating them all, some hand to hand combat was envolved (Halo Wars)

That scene was unrealistic in terms of canon and massively overplayed. Those Elites were extremely stupid.

*Noble 6 taking on an Ultra, Zealot, Field Marshal, and a General in hand to hand combat (Halo: Reach).

Also overplayed and canonically inccurate. He killed the General by barging into it, then managed to kill two other assailants by dual wielding an AR and pistol whilst mortally wounded.

*

That sneaking up and impaling thing that Elite's tend to do only works if their opponent doesn't KNOW that they are there. In other words, if Rtas activated his camo after he and Emile came face to face, It would't work very well. On the other hand, if the combatants don't actually see eachother face to face before engaging, than it is possible. But then again, that's not a fair arrangement for the fight.

Seemed to work fine for Ripa when he fought Sergeant Forge.

Also, of course Emile saw them coming, the Phantom was right above him and well within his line of sight. He killed one, showed his arrogance by trying to get another to attack and failed due to a fatal lapse in situational awareness.

You must be joking if you think that they're going to greet each other and shake hands first. Camouflage is one of the many advantages Rtas has over Emile, of course he's going to use it because he knows what Spartans are capable of.


Actually, A Brute's comfort zone is completely different from an Elite's comfort zone. A Brute is a Brutish, hence the name, savage, hand to hand fighter with no technique (Save the hammer wielding Chieftains), and simply brute strength. They like to wrestle, rip, and smash. If you get into a wrestling match with a Brute, you're most likely going to lose. An Elite actually knows how to fight. They use some degree of training, technique, and dicipline to win hand to hand engagements, completely the opposite of Brutes.

Spartan's have proven time after time to be able to take on multiple sword wielding Elites with their bare hands, and come out on top. As for the Cheiftain interrogating John, Yeah, I'll give him that. But that does not change the fact that John implanted a sticky grenade on the Chieftain's groin, kicked off, and proceeded to take out an entire room full of Brutes surrounding him. No matter how you look at it, it was an impressive feat.

Are you simply going to dismiss every example I give as "overplayed"?. Guess what? It still happened, just accept it. Yes, 3 Spartan-II's did take on over 20 Elite Honor Guards in hand to hand and ranged combat. Yes, Noble 6 did take on multiple high ranking Elites in hand to hand combat.

Why did you chose to ignore all of my other examples of Spartan's defeating Elites, or multiple Elites in hand to hand combat?

As for the arrangement of the fight, are you saying that the fight will start off by having the Rtas already activating his Camo and in the proccess of sneaking up behind Emile? Yeah, of course he would win if that's how the fight went, but thats like starting the fight with Emile sneaking up behind Rtas about to implant his Kukri into Rtas's mouth. Fair fight arrangement eh?

[Edited on 01.08.2011 2:42 PM PST]

  • 01.08.2011 2:38 PM PDT
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Thel doesn't even need Rtas to win that fight.

  • 01.08.2011 7:20 PM PDT

Emile might kill six (He's killed me with his shotgun before) and he spams AL and has no skill

  • 01.08.2011 9:03 PM PDT
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Posted by: Nyxiz
Thel doesn't even need Rtas to win that fight.


You have an extremely strong argument there. Infact, with all that evidence supporting your statement, I think you just might have convinced me.

Lol.

  • 01.09.2011 7:45 AM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: Jonzx5
Posted by: Nyxiz
Thel doesn't even need Rtas to win that fight.

You have an extremely strong argument there. Infact, with all that evidence supporting your statement, I think you just might have convinced me.

Lol.

You are assuming that what is true for John is true for all Spartans. You have also assumed that what is true for most Elites must also be true for Rtas and Thel. You cannot assume this between groups and individuals. It is a distributive fallacy.

The best one can do when speaking about individuals is too look at the individuals themselves. From the evidence given, Emile was killed by an Elite (That arrived via a Phantom, an obvious visual target), who would have showed up his motion tracker (But Emile neglected it). Rather, he chose to gloat. I am pretty sure that if Rtas acted in such a manner then he would probably have found himself being infected by the Flood, but he did not.

Also, how was the conclusion that Jai walked away without a scratch made?

  • 01.09.2011 8:56 AM PDT

I reckon Six and Thel are even.

You also have to take into account that Thel took on dozens of heretics and flood alone at one point, whereas Six almost always had another guy or two with him until he died. But it's been said that he has made entire militias "disappear."

But it's hard to compare Emile or Rtas to anyone because we don't actually see them fight very often.

But Rtas must be a pretty good tactition if he was able to take on the loyalist fleet that outnumbered him 3 to 1.

  • 01.09.2011 9:17 AM PDT
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Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: Jonzx5
Posted by: Nyxiz
Thel doesn't even need Rtas to win that fight.

You have an extremely strong argument there. Infact, with all that evidence supporting your statement, I think you just might have convinced me.

Lol.

You are assuming that what is true for John is true for all Spartans. You have also assumed that what is true for most Elites must also be true for Rtas and Thel. You cannot assume this between groups and individuals. It is a distributive fallacy.

The best one can do when speaking about individuals is too look at the individuals themselves. From the evidence given, Emile was killed by an Elite (That arrived via a Phantom, an obvious visual target), who would have showed up his motion tracker (But Emile neglected it). Rather, he chose to gloat. I am pretty sure that if Rtas acted in such a manner then he would probably have found himself being infected by the Flood, but he did not.

Also, how was the conclusion that Jai walked away without a scratch made?


When have I ever assumed that what is true for John is true for all Spartan's? In the examples I gave of Spartans beating Elites or multiple Elites in hand to hand combat, most of them were not John doing the fighting.

I have also accepted the fact that Rtas is an unparalleled swordsman, and one of the best Elite warriors in the Covenant, possibly as skilled as Thel.

The conclusion that Jai walked away without a scratch is obvious. The fight between Jai and Thel was pretty detailed, and it stated every aspect, or injury that the two combatants may have received. Jai was stated to have no injuries, while Thel had broken ribs. Jai continued to fight throughout the story after his encounter with Thel, and never once was an injury mentioned.

I would also like to mention that after Jai broke Thel's ribs and threw him against a wall, he was reaching for his knife about to kill Thel when he had more urgent things to attend to and had to leave instead.

  • 01.09.2011 9:52 AM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: Jonzx5
When have I ever assumed that what is true for John is true for all Spartan's? In the examples I gave of Spartans beating Elites or multiple Elites in hand to hand combat, most of them were not John doing the fighting.

Using John's killing of the Brutes in Uprising. The other examples are of individuals. John, Fred, Kelly, whatever.

Posted by: Jonzx5
I have also accepted the fact that Rtas is an unparalleled swordsman, and one of the best Elite warriors in the Covenant, possibly as skilled as Thel.

Possibly more skilled; possibly as skilled; possibly less skilled. There is no way to know. You cannot assume that he is less than or equal to any more than you can can assume he is greater than.

Posted by: Jonzx5
The conclusion that Jai walked away without a scratch is obvious. The fight between Jai and Thel was pretty detailed, and it stated every aspect, or injury that the two combatants may have received.

It was from Thel's point of view. He had no idea whether or not he inflicted injury to Jai.

Posted by: Jonzx5
Jai was stated to have no injuries, while Thel had broken ribs. Jai continued to fight throughout the story after his encounter with Thel, and never once was an injury mentioned.

What page was this stated? Thel suffered a single broken rib, and got up and sprinted after Jai. He said that such an injury would not impair him. If Jai had any similar injuries, then it is likely that they did not impair his ability to fight either.

Posted by: Jonzx5
I would also like to mention that after Jai broke Thel's ribs and threw him against a wall, he was reaching for his knife about to kill Thel when he had more urgent things to attend to and had to leave instead.

Well Thel seemed quite confident, asserting after seeing the knife that neither would win; they would kill each other in the end.

  • 01.09.2011 10:43 AM PDT
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"Time was your ally human. But now it has abandoned you. The Forerunners....have returned. And this tomb... is now yours". - The Didact

-blam!- i should buy cole protocol just to read that battle between Thel and Jai

  • 01.09.2011 10:48 AM PDT

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