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Subject: Halo Science: Are Teleporters Fiction or Fact? (Long Read)

"If you fight it, you become it."

Introduction

Recently, I came across a thread where this question was brought up: "Is faster than light travel really possible?" I was surprised to see a large amount of Bnet members interested and curious to read what others had to say. The thread got popular, and after much debate and discussion I was convinced: I wanted to start my own threads related to the science of Halo.

So here it is, my first thread on the science of Halo. Your responses will decide whether or not I continue posting these threads on this forum. Your feedback would defiantly be appreciated.

(Feel free to post your own theories, personal opinions, or ideas in this thread. Let me read what you have to say!)

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Get out a sheet of paper, and a pencil. If you don't have paper near you, feel free to use your imagination. Now, for those of you with paper, draw a stick figure smack dab in the middle of your sheet. Imagine that this character is real, and exists within this two-dimensional world you have created. How would he perceive his world? What would he see? Draw another character next to your first. For reference purposes, label character one "A" and character two "B". Feel free to give them names, if you're creative.

Character A would see character B as a line. Because he exists in a two dimensional world (Length x Width), the only thing these "flatlanders" would perceive is a line. There is no height in the second dimension. However, you can see the full structure of their features in your world, the third dimension: Their arms, legs, eyes (If you drew them one); People in a higher dimension can view the lower dimensions in greater elegance and beauty.

"But hold on! What do dimensions have to do with teleporters, or Halo?"

In the Halo series, teleporters are used to transfer one entity from a certain point to another, almost in an instant. To a player watching someone walk through a teleporter, it appears as if they completely vanished, and reappeared somewhere else. It almost seems impossible that you can take someone, and transfer them far away in an instant. However, this isn't necessarily true.

Refer back to your sheet of paper now. Imagine that character A is being sent to prison. Draw a circle around character A. This circle will represent the prison cell. To the two dimensional character, the circle is impossible to escape. It seems impossible that they can break through an impenetrable line. Pretend that character B is visiting character A in jail: This is where your imagination comes in.

Pretend that we could pick character A up, and place him out of the jail. Character A would probably be startled, as he is magically taken away from his two dimensional world and then replaced back outside the jail cell, without even knowing what happened. To character B, it would appear as if character A magically vanished and reappeared outside the jail wall.

You just preformed an example of how higher dimensions can be used to teleport entities from one position to another. When you "picked up" character A, you took him into the third dimension. To a "Flatlander", or someone of the second dimension, there is no such thing as height. The second dimension only consists of length and width. When you picked character A up, you introduced him to height, and teleported him outside the jail cell walls.

This same principle can now be applied to us, or people of the third dimension. Ever seen the movie Jumper? This movie shows the potential of moving into higher dimensions.

If humans could travel into the fourth spatial dimension, they would have the ability to teleport.

This is the concept I've been building at. Now we focus our attention to Halo. In Halo, teleporters are these dimensional portals that can transfer an entity from one position of space to another. In order for a teleporter to exist, you would need to have two wormholes that connect and bring you through the fourth dimension. Only through this can teleporters be a reality.

However, there is a grim reality facing at us: The amount of energy required to crumple space-time like this and have access to a higher dimension would require the same amount of energy triggered during the big bang. Now of course, I'm speaking theoretically here, but the potential for teleporters to exist is still there.

The only true way for teleporters in Halo to exist is to have some sort of technology far more exceeding then that of ours within the teleportation device itself. This device would have to rip open a wormhole and have another device that can interface with the first and link the two portals together. Only through higher dimensions can a teleporter actually exist.

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Thank you for reading, and please send feedback / Your own theories!










  • 01.07.2011 2:14 PM PDT

If you're reading this, then you have clicked on my name somewhere. I have Xbox LIVE and my gamertag is The Mr Wafflezz

My warp on minecraft
Yep.

Took me one minute.

I'm a fast reader...

[Edited on 01.07.2011 2:19 PM PST]

  • 01.07.2011 2:18 PM PDT

"If you fight it, you become it."

Posted by: About 39 Goats
Took me one minute.

I'm a fast reader...


I read it back myself, wasn't as long of a read as I thought.

  • 01.07.2011 2:20 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

This would still be classified as a form of FTL if it is instantaneous, and would thus still be subject to the same causality issues.

Teleportation also raises issues with identity. If you are deconstructed, sent via whatever method and then reconstructed, that is not you. You died during deconstruction - your Brain was destroyed. What has in fact been created at the other side is a clone exactly matching you. That is not too say it is impossible, but you might want to think twice before stepping in one.

It means that the real Thel died when Gravemind teleported him. The real John before that on Halo. In Star Trek, perhaps none of the actual characters are still alive, just copies from all the teleporting they have done.

  • 01.07.2011 2:51 PM PDT
  •  | 
  • Exalted Heroic Member

you're naut cookin'

The teleportation system on the Halo themselves are actually the use of micro slipspace bubbles.

As for multiplayer... who cares, its for gameplay purposes.

  • 01.07.2011 2:56 PM PDT

"If you fight it, you become it."

Posted by: anton1792
This would still be classified as a form of FTL if it is instantaneous, and would thus still be subject to the same causality issues.

Teleportation also raises issues with identity. If you are deconstructed, sent via whatever method and then reconstructed, that is not you. You died during deconstruction - your Brain was destroyed. What has in fact been created at the other side is a clone exactly matching you. That is not too say it is impossible, but you might want to think twice before stepping in one.

It means that the real Thel died when Gravemind teleported him. The real John before that on Halo. In Star Trek, perhaps none of the actual characters are still alive, just copies from all the teleporting they have done.


Who says a wormhole would deconstruct you? Why not it transfer your mass from one location in space-time to another? Although nether yours nor mine have been proven true (Since it is hard to test the physics of wormholes in a lab), it is still good to remain optimistic.

  • 01.07.2011 2:57 PM PDT

if we can go from one deminssion to a preceding dimension that would be great. ,the 4rth dimension is time. so i gues to get out of a 3d jail cell the only way to get out is to teleport a few moments back in time before u were in the jail cell. ur fromer u would be in the jail cell and now u are outside of it, htere would be 2 you's.u can kill him if u want but there are theries that if you meet you former self when you travel in time, then you both die, but this is based on an episode of futurama so...

[Edited on 01.07.2011 3:02 PM PST]

  • 01.07.2011 3:01 PM PDT

If you can see this message, you are looking at the signature of the sexiest person in the world :3

I saw Jumper. Good movie.

OT-Though still improbable, i guess with thousands of years of technological updates, this maybe, JUST maybe, work.

Its cool to think about it in the present though. Reality is what you make of it; anything is possible.

  • 01.07.2011 3:04 PM PDT

RIP - The Rev: February 9, 1981 – December 28, 2009
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RIP - Dimebag Darrell: August 20, 1966 – December 8, 2004
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Posted by: Lord Xanth
Posted by: anton1792
This would still be classified as a form of FTL if it is instantaneous, and would thus still be subject to the same causality issues.

Teleportation also raises issues with identity. If you are deconstructed, sent via whatever method and then reconstructed, that is not you. You died during deconstruction - your Brain was destroyed. What has in fact been created at the other side is a clone exactly matching you. That is not too say it is impossible, but you might want to think twice before stepping in one.

It means that the real Thel died when Gravemind teleported him. The real John before that on Halo. In Star Trek, perhaps none of the actual characters are still alive, just copies from all the teleporting they have done.


Who says a wormhole would deconstruct you? Why not it transfer your mass from one location in space-time to another? Although nether yours nor mine have been proven true (Since it is hard to test the physics of wormholes in a lab), it is still good to remain optimistic.


If I'm saying this right (doubted) then he means that it'd work much like FTL in the beginning stages: many failures and then you'd have a clone come from it, not you because you were pulled apart (respectively) inside the transporting process, brain being the subject of matter and all others becoming obsolete. It's just like an FTL meeting a black-hole: you'd go through (FTL), but wouldn't be the same, torn apart when jumping I(black-hole) and have a clone on the other side of emergence.

(I totally forgot my original posting so I made this.)

  • 01.07.2011 3:10 PM PDT

Lurking....waiting to strike!

They are FACT. Scientist have made some advancements in this. They have made it possible to transfer energy via this between 2 identical particles.

  • 01.07.2011 3:30 PM PDT

"Of all the Sciences cultivated by mankind, Astronomy is acknowledged to be, and undoubtedly is, the most sublime, the most interesting, and the most useful." -John Taylor, Pittsburgh Academy

Posted by: anton1792
This would still be classified as a form of FTL if it is instantaneous, and would thus still be subject to the same causality issues.


Actually, no. When you travel through a wormhole, you do not violate either relativity or causality. Here's why; inside the wormhole, a beam of light will still travel at ~300,000 kms, as it would outside the wormhole's throat. But, because the space between the wormhole mouths is vastly smaller than wormhole's locations, you will arrive at your destination faster than a beam of light would take traveling outside of the wormhole. This is called apparent FTL travel, because to an outside observer you have crossed a distance in an amount of time that exceeds that which light could travel. This is why wormholes are one of the few (if only in theory) "viable" options for FTL travel. It's not really FTL, since causality and relativity are both locally preserved. And it is also possible that trying to create a temporal wormhole that does violate causality (taking one mouth out to a distant location, then bringing it back, thus separating the mouths in farther in time than in space) would cause it to collapse via gravitational interactions.

Also, I've always thought that teleporters were a kind of modified and stabilized slipspace rupture that somehow encompasses the user in a protective field to shield them from the slipstream. This would make sense in the context of this log from one of Delta Halo's Flood storage/research facility (Cold Storage):

REPORT: SECURITY BREACH

LF.Xx.3273 research and containment facility; [delta site] has experienced a security breach via emergency [slip stream space] transportation conduits. Emergency [slip stream space] transportation conduits have been placed in recursive mode to contain unauthorized hostile life forms. Request emergency security detail. Still waiting for primary maintenance and security detail. [2512332 hours, 14 minutes, 6 seconds] elapsed since initial request.


This suggests to me that the teleporters we see on the map are the same as the aforementioned emergency slipstream space transportation conduits. Conveniently enough, this method sidesteps the uncertainty principle that makes scanning each individual atom of an object so damned difficult. Although I do like the thinking behind your higher-dimensional theory, which is almost the same as this.

  • 01.07.2011 3:45 PM PDT

This

Posted by: raven7641
They are FACT. Scientist have made some advancements in this. They have made it possible to transfer energy via this between 2 identical particles.

  • 01.07.2011 4:10 PM PDT

"Of all the Sciences cultivated by mankind, Astronomy is acknowledged to be, and undoubtedly is, the most sublime, the most interesting, and the most useful." -John Taylor, Pittsburgh Academy

Posted by: raven7641
They are FACT. Scientist have made some advancements in this. They have made it possible to transfer energy via this between 2 identical particles.


Not exactly.
Those experiments were testing what is called Quantum Teleportation. It's not quite the same as what one would normally think when they hear the word teleportation.

Taken from Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_teleportation):

Assume that Alice and Bob share an entangled qubit AB. That is, Alice has one half, A, and Bob has the other half, B. Let C denote the qubit Alice wishes to transmit to Bob.
Alice applies a unitary operation on the qubits AC and measures the result to obtain two classical bits. In this process, the two qubits are destroyed. Bob's qubit, B, now contains information about C; however, the information is somewhat randomized. More specifically, Bob's qubit B is in one of four states uniformly chosen at random and Bob cannot obtain any information about C from his qubit.
Alice provides her two measured classical bits, which indicate which of the four states Bob possesses. Bob applies a unitary transformation which depends on the classical bits he obtains from Alice, transforming his qubit into an identical re-creation of the qubit C.


This is really only applicable to individual particles and (possibly) whole molecules, but scaling it up to more complex structures (such as a human being) are probably not very practical, and would result in the destruction of the original (raising with it the philosophical issues of "who" exactly is reconstructed on the opposite node...)

  • 01.07.2011 4:24 PM PDT

It's an interesting theory for sure.
Now I'm paranoid that there's someone in another dimension looking at me, and considering picking me up and putting me somewhere else just to see how confused I would get...

  • 01.07.2011 4:45 PM PDT

Posted by: Ark of Covenant
Actually, no. When you travel through a wormhole, you do not violate either relativity or causality.

Not travelling FTL in local space within the wormhole doesn't mean that you aren't violating causality in local space outside the wormhole; Lorentz transformations depend not on object velocities, but rather on the time and place of events.

//=======

Let's put it this way: Suppose an object travels super-fast FTL from an origin to a destination. Now, according to relativistic models, the object will, in some reference frame, have arrived at the destination before leaving the origin. If FTL travel is possible and the laws of physics are the same in all reference frames, then the FTL craft can then travel nigh-instantaneously FTL back to the origin, and it can arrive at its own origin before it ever took off. This is of course a gigantic heap of causality violation.
Now suppose that a wormholing object "teleports" via wormhole from the origin, making it from origin to destination to origin at locally sublight speeds, and suppose that it "keeps up" with the FTL object in the sense that the departure, arrival at destination, and return events are all simultaneous with each other (which, since they take place at the same location and there is no spacetime interval, they must be). If the FTL object is violating causality by being in these locations at these times, then the wormholing object must also be violating causality.


This is really only applicable to individual particles and (possibly) whole molecules, but scaling it up to more complex structures (such as a human being) are probably not very practical, and would result in the destruction of the original (raising with it the philosophical issues of "who" exactly is reconstructed on the opposite node...)
Not exactly.

You seem to be missing the major issue. It's not a problem of feasibility and messyness; the problem is that quantum teleportation doesn't actually teleport any classical information FTL. In that Wiki article's introduction, it points out that one of the required steps is the transmission of "classical bits" down a regular old information channel.

In fact, quantum teleportation never claims to be an FTL information transmission protocol, but simply a protocol capable of transmitting quantum information from one system to another, which, while not classical teleportation, is still pretty cool.

  • 01.07.2011 4:48 PM PDT

"Of all the Sciences cultivated by mankind, Astronomy is acknowledged to be, and undoubtedly is, the most sublime, the most interesting, and the most useful." -John Taylor, Pittsburgh Academy

Posted by: Tupolev
Let's put it this way: Suppose an object travels super-fast FTL from an origin to a destination. Now, according to relativistic models, the object will, in some reference frame, have arrived at the destination before leaving the origin. If FTL travel is possible and the laws of physics are the same in all reference frames, then the FTL craft can then travel nigh-instantaneously FTL back to the origin, and it can arrive at its own origin before it ever took off. This is of course a gigantic heap of causality violation.
Now suppose that a wormholing object "teleports" via wormhole from the origin, making it from origin to destination to origin at locally sublight speeds, and suppose that it "keeps up" with the FTL object in the sense that the departure, arrival at destination, and return events are all simultaneous with each other (which, since they take place at the same location and there is no spacetime interval, they must be). If the FTL object is violating causality by being in these locations at these times, then the wormholing object must also be violating causality.


Ah, I see. But, wouldn't a ship traveling through a wormhole have different properties than a ship traveling FTL? From the FTL ship's point of view, as I understand it, time would flow backwards, resulting in the violations in causality, because it is traveling superluminaly. The ship traveling through the wormhole on the other hand would be more or less unaffected by relativistic effects (unless it was traveling at some percentage of c), therefore it would not be violating causality because the time dilation effects would not be as severe on the "wormholing" ship. If I understand it correctly, the people on the FTL ship would return before they arived (and also younger) because they have exceeded c and therefore have traveled back in time, yes? But a wormhole would not suffer from these effect, so long as it was not looped back onto itself. But I'm not (yet) a physicist...


You seem to be missing the major issue. It's not a problem of feasibility and messyness; the problem is that quantum teleportation doesn't actually teleport any classical information FTL. In that Wiki article's introduction, it points out that one of the required steps is the transmission of "classical bits" down a regular old information channel.

In fact, quantum teleportation never claims to be an FTL information transmission protocol, but simply a protocol capable of transmitting quantum information from one system to another, which, while not classical teleportation, is still pretty cool.


I understand that no information is transmitted in the classical sense in quantum teleportation. While not the best elaboration, I was merely showing that quantum teleportation is different than "normal" teleportation. Although, I do have much to learn at any rate, so any clarification helps.

  • 01.07.2011 5:04 PM PDT


Posted by: Ark of Covenant
Ah, I see. But, wouldn't a ship traveling through a wormhole have different properties than a ship traveling FTL? From the FTL ship's point of view, as I understand it, time would flow backwards, resulting in the violations in causality, because it is traveling superluminaly. The ship traveling through the wormhole on the other hand would be more or less unaffected by relativistic effects (unless it was traveling at some percentage of c), therefore it would not be violating causality because the time dilation effects would not be as severe on the "wormholing" ship. If I understand it correctly, the people on the FTL ship would return before they arived (and also younger) because they have exceeded c and therefore have traveled back in time, yes? But a wormhole would not suffer from these effect, so long as it was not looped back onto itself. But I'm not (yet) a physicist...

Well, I'm not that much of a physicist either (Unless you want to consider a sophomore undergrad EE student a physicist, which would probably be a poor choice), which is why I don't tend to describe relativistic things from the point of view of the object being discussed, because that adds an extra level of mindbogglingness to it.

That's why my explaination never bothered to bring up the reference frame of the craft, since it's not really necessary. The very act of things existing in various moments at strange times can, in and of itself, cause violation of causality.
If an arrow flying FTL can hit a target prior to being released in some reference frames, so can a non-FTL arrow that is released simultaneously with the other one and strikes the target simultaneously with the other one.


In any case, you might note that when quantum mechanics and causality violation are discussed, the issue isn't whether or not particles propogate through space FTL; the issue is whether classical information can be teleported FTL.

I understand that no information is transmitted in the classical sense in quantum teleportation. While not the best elaboration, I was merely showing that quantum teleportation is different than "normal" teleportation. Although, I do have much to learn at any rate, so any clarification helps.
Oh, I just thought you were confused in that sense since you actually did describe potential problems with teleportation of macroscopic objects via quantum teleportation which, as I (and I guess subsequently you) noted, isn't really what quantum teleportation is about.

[Edited on 01.07.2011 5:28 PM PST]

  • 01.07.2011 5:28 PM PDT

Some teleporters in multiplayer could be canon, like the ones on Halo rings could be a very small section of the ring's teleportation grid. Teleporters on maps like Headlong though probably aren't canon, and are just for gameplay purposes.

P.S. I know this barely fits with the topic, but it is related.

  • 01.07.2011 5:36 PM PDT

Posted by: anton1792
This would still be classified as a form of FTL if it is instantaneous, and would thus still be subject to the same causality issues.

Teleportation also raises issues with identity. If you are deconstructed, sent via whatever method and then reconstructed, that is not you. You died during deconstruction - your Brain was destroyed. What has in fact been created at the other side is a clone exactly matching you. That is not too say it is impossible, but you might want to think twice before stepping in one.

It means that the real Thel died when Gravemind teleported him. The real John before that on Halo. In Star Trek, perhaps none of the actual characters are still alive, just copies from all the teleporting they have done.


But the "clone" still has your memories, your feelings, everything that makes you an individual. [TVTropes FTW.] It confirms[heavily suggests] that the soul is real and can exist without a human [or other life >..>] body. Therefore, God is real.

  • 01.07.2011 5:54 PM PDT

"If you fight it, you become it."

Really good posts guys, keep them coming!

  • 01.08.2011 7:32 AM PDT

Don't worry, you're still your mom's favorite Bnet member.

Interesting. I never thought of teleporters being canon in the Halo universe to begin with, seeing as they're only seen in multiplayer.

[Edited on 01.08.2011 7:57 AM PST]

  • 01.08.2011 7:57 AM PDT

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Well, isn't this how slipspace teleportation operates in the canon anyhow?

It's just a small slipsace portal meant for indivials.

It's technicallly possible, but currently beyond our technical know how to be sure.



[Edited on 01.08.2011 8:04 AM PST]

  • 01.08.2011 8:03 AM PDT

Error 404:
-Error not found.

Most certainly not!
The usage of quantum entanglement makes this possibility a reality.

  • 01.08.2011 12:37 PM PDT

after I read ghosts of onyx, I thought teleporters worked via slipspace, so that wouldn't take too much energy right? I mean if humanity can manage it the forerunners could too

  • 01.08.2011 4:05 PM PDT

Posted by: KSI SC Matt
Posted by: anton1792
This would still be classified as a form of FTL if it is instantaneous, and would thus still be subject to the same causality issues.

Teleportation also raises issues with identity. If you are deconstructed, sent via whatever method and then reconstructed, that is not you. You died during deconstruction - your Brain was destroyed. What has in fact been created at the other side is a clone exactly matching you. That is not too say it is impossible, but you might want to think twice before stepping in one.

It means that the real Thel died when Gravemind teleported him. The real John before that on Halo. In Star Trek, perhaps none of the actual characters are still alive, just copies from all the teleporting they have done.


But the "clone" still has your memories, your feelings, everything that makes you an individual. [TVTropes FTW.] It confirms[heavily suggests] that the soul is real and can exist without a human [or other life >..>] body. Therefore, God is real.


i'm not sure how you reached the conclusion that god is real from the possibility of a clone having your exact memories...
if you stepped through the teleporter, you as in your physical self would be dead, on the other end a perfect copy that thinks it is you would carry on with its life, it wouldn't be you, though who would know?

  • 01.08.2011 4:08 PM PDT

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