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This topic has moved here: Subject: Infinite Cyborg Dreams (some thoughts and questions)
  • Subject: Infinite Cyborg Dreams (some thoughts and questions)
Subject: Infinite Cyborg Dreams (some thoughts and questions)
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I've been thinking about the dream sequences in Infinity for a while
now, and I finally have the time to put my thoughts down.

From reading through the first few, I understood that the narrator is
immortal but doesn't know it or doesn't understand it.
How did I come up with the immortality bit? It comes from the
first sequence.
(Sections 1-1.2)
After dispatching the MiBs with his newly acquired knife, the narrator
expects to have keys to the "subway." Think about what the word
subway implies. (no, not sandwiches) Literally, the subway is a
train station, but figuratively it could be the afterlife. Why? Well,
a subway is underground and leads to many places, and an
immortal being that is constantly thrusted through time and reborn
would see death this way. Also, the narrator has keys to this
subway, but doesn't have control over where he goes. (If he
had his way he would be going to that movie he can't remember
the name of.) The train appears to take frequent stops to Hangar
96 as well.

I say that's where the train leads because of the order of the
terminals. (Look at the numbers, not the order they are in) Right
after he boards the train, he is taken to Hangar 96. Also,
look at the number 96. In the right font if you rotate the numbers
right, they form an infinity symbol like the one you see in
Hangar 96, so the number 96 is possibly the narrator's distorted
view of the infinity symbol.

Other symbols
I still can't figure out what the gum is a symbol for. I know the
sanitation workers can't clean it up, and it's something that the
MiBs and toupeed men hang on to, but it seems to have much
more meaning than that. The knife is also puzzling as well as
the sanitation workers and MiBs themselves. Please help!

[Edited on 8/21/2004 5:03:39 PM]

  • 08.21.2004 5:03 PM PDT
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I put out a thread on this ages and ages ago... but nobody ever replied, so I'll reply to you and hopefully get something like our Mulling thread going again :P

I have always been confused as to whether the narrator is Durandal, the SO or a 3rd party.

The Durandal concept links in the strange hangar sequence quite well, given that he was forced to do several things by Strauss early in his 'life' or it could be an early part of the rampancy. As to other details... I'm afraid I can't recall them right now but I'll be back...

The concept of a 3rd party has always been present in my mind, although it could also tie into the SO as well. (currently reviewing ideas as I write) The large guy who appears with the large sword was uttering something about "Durability" which I always thoguht was "Durandal" just being misheard, and the way he just collapses and gets carried off by the suits just seems alot like a conspiracy, possibly involving a Dr Strauss testing his control over an AI and some nifty lil cyborgs. But this doesn't take out another possibility... That this narrator is a cyborg himself. It makes more sense that way... to remove the possibility of him working out his own identity or somesuch, and the way he is subsequently followed also adds to this theories evidence. Besides, how many people can get away with murdering goverment agents without a single police (or equivalent) banging down the door?

The way the chewing gum works... well... I figured if he was a cyborg and therefore tapped into Durandal, they would be tracking him thorugh some similar link with the big D, as such they do things out of the ordinary like copying his movements on occaision...

--Tristan is scared by the vast ramblings and shall quit before he loses the plot completely. But he will be back!

  • 08.22.2004 4:24 AM PDT
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Thanks for replying Gaara. I wish I had more time to come up with
a detailed response, but I will say that there is a character in the
dreams that stands out to me. It's the nameless female character
that appears in more than just the dream terminals.

She appears in terminal 4 on Never Burn Money. I can't say for sure
if it's the same nameless female, but the language is still very
metaphoric like the dreams. A nameless female character also
appears in the unformatted terminal on Kill Your Television. Again,
there is no way to be sure if it's the same character, but the parallels
seem to work.

If they are the same nameless female, then the narrator and this
chick have "immortality" in common. They share twin destines as the
unformatted KYT terminal points out, which reminds me of the last
line of the series. You are Destiny.

This is all very frustrating because I still don't know who the narrator
is, but if the narrator is Durandal instead of the cyborg, "she" may
be more familiar than we think. =)

  • 08.22.2004 2:23 PM PDT
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Yeah, you've got a few good ideas there. I haven't read those terminals in AGES... The continued repetition of "Durability" always pissed me off, as I am unable to determine whether it is the Narrator or a link to D's control of him (ie him as cyborg). I honestly didn't remember the chick past the section in the movies, where I don't recall anything past her presence in the story. But it would be just like Bungie, especially given all that happened with the letters, for this to be Cortana... or maybe a previous incarnation...

-- Tristan shall investigate matters more when the time arises, and hopes to make more sense of things.

  • 08.23.2004 3:36 AM PDT
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I think the repetition of "durability" is meant to give you different
perspectives on what the word means. In conjunction with the title
Infinity, the word durability would obviously have some connotation
with that, but as you mentioned, the word is similar to Durandal's
name as well.

The knife seems to have some connection with Durability as well,
because the toupeed man mutters "durability" while he is dying,
and the nameless female character in the dream becomes
obsessed with "durability" as well after she touches the knife.
We also know that the knife is the cause of the narrator's grief,
but he can't put the knife down for whatever reason.

If I were to venture a guess at what "durability" means, I would
say it meant immortality, but not in the traditional sense. It's my
belief that the Security Officer from Marathon is one of many
incarnations of Heroes throughout history, like the Kill Your
Television terminal seems to depict. I think the Jjaro are behind
these time warping shenanigans, (Forerunner possibly) and
send in this perfect combatant to bring balance to the universe.
Another reason I think the Jjaro send in the "hero" is the final
screen of M:i where it says something like grafted to
machines your builders did not understand.
We know that
Forerunner outposts are scattered throughout the galaxy,
so it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to say that the Mjolnir
technology is Jjaro (Forerunner). This could also explain why
343 GS recognizes your armor. (although I'm still puzzled
about that Marathon symbol glaring at me on his face)

Now, if durability has some connection with the knife, then
perhaps the knife is what gives the "hero" his immortality.
(or durability) The possiblity of immortality would be very
appealing to those who don't have it, so their obsession
would be understandable. It's odd that the narrator ignores
the word durability, but he may not even know he is "hero."
The KYT terminal mentions the river Lethe, which is the
river of forgetfulness, and souls that are to be reincarnated
drink from it.

This sets up an interesting irony. (if I'm even close to the
meaning of these terminals)
The knife is durability, (immortality) and is the object
of everyones desires in the terminals. The MiBs, the
toupeed men, and the nameless female. That's everyone
but the sanitation workers. The irony is the one person
that has the knife, (immortality) doesn't know (most of the
time) and is tortured by his fate. The problem is knowing
who has the knife. Is it the cyborg, or is it Durandal? Could
it be both? Maybe time will tell. . . maybe.

  • 08.25.2004 12:41 PM PDT

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Okay, I've only read the MSP on M:i so I may be way off but...

The knife is referred to being more like a broadsword at least once. Perhaps it's a broadsword of the same temper as Joyeuse and Cortain?

Durandal. Durability. Immortality, persisting even beyond the collapse of the universe.

He who posesses it (in his skull?) doesn't know and is tortured by his fate. He is forced to drink of the Lethe and forget his former life (except for fragments, strangely familiar, almost like a dream) in order to be reborn.

I'd say that the dream narrator is the cyborg, and that the knife represents Durandal. The cyborg posesses Durandal, and thus is protected by Durandal's machinations (ooo, sorry) and maneuvers for immortality but is forced to obey Durandal's every whim.

Nightmarish, wouldn't you say?

-- Steve swears he read this theory before, but can't remember where.

  • 08.25.2004 4:11 PM PDT
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Yes, very nightmarish. I think that makes more sense
because it explains the similarity of the words Durandal and
durability and the protection the knife provides. It would also make
sense because everyone in the story is after Durandal but the
cyborg. Very nice.

I've thought about the skull thing too, and it opens up many interesting
possibilites. It seems like you agree that the Security Officer of the
Marathon is reincarnated, so if that is true, then you have to wonder
if Durandal's primal pattern is carried through time with the Security
Officer.

Assuming 117 is the same hero, then you wonder what would
happen if Cortana is plugged into 117's head and finds Durandal's
primal pattern hanging out in his impenetrable brain pan. That
would explain the likeness of the Cortana Letters with Durandal's
personality and obsession with closure. (at least in my
opinion =)

Oops, almost forgot.
You mentioned Joyeuse and Courtain, but I was thinking more
Miranda because of some interesting parallels between Arthurian
Myth and Ogier the Dane. (not to mention the round table reference)
You probably know this, but for the sake of completeness (is that
a word?) I'll go over it again.

Ogier was seven feet tall and carried the sword Cortana. Long story
short, Ogier does some stuff and is taken to an Island by the jealous
fairy Morgana (Morgan le Fay) where he waits with King Arthur to
reclaim the throne. Miranda is similar to the name Mirandoise which
is Excalibur.

I'm glad to see another poster on this thread, and I hope to see more
soon! (not that chatting with Gaara isn't nice) More thoughts = more knowledge!

  • 08.25.2004 8:15 PM PDT

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This reply will decloak eMCee's post.

-- Steve's trying to expire the Active Camo powerups haunting this board.

  • 08.26.2004 4:35 AM PDT
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Posted by: Anton P Nym
This reply will decloak eMCee's post.

-- Steve's trying to expire the Active Camo powerups haunting this board


Man that is irritating. Why does it happen?

  • 08.26.2004 5:20 AM PDT

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Posted by: Stalin the 31st
Posted by: Anton P Nym
This reply will decloak eMCee's post.

-- Steve's trying to expire the Active Camo powerups haunting this board


Man that is irritating. Why does it happen?

Indexing glitches, assuming I understood Achronos' post about it a while ago. *shrug* While there's a work-around, I'm not going to get too upset.

An addition to the thread, I've been mulling over the idea that a lot of the weirdly formatted text is coming from the non-cyborg part of the Security Officer. We (the players) represent the cyborg components, unconscious of the meat-brain's thoughts and desires while obeying all those AI instructions. Meanwhile, all those repressed memories are floating to the surface, surreal in their expression because the memories have been blanked out of the cybernetic part and have no direct path for expression.

This would imply that the narrator of the infamous KYT terminal is the Security Officer, and his nameless adversary whose destiny is inextricably linked in a love/hate bond with him is Durandana.

Dang, at work. can't research this much further... I'll dig deeper into the MSP when I get more free time and see if this matches up.

-- Steve is offended that work is interfering with this highly important leisure-time research. Hmpf.

  • 08.26.2004 6:56 AM PDT
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i have no idea waht he is talking about!

  • 08.26.2004 9:12 AM PDT

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Start reading here if you want to learn more about Marathon. Be warned; there's a lot of reading involved, and some of it is pretty tough to figure out. After all, it's been ten years since it came out and folks are still picking out new details to explore. (As we are doing here!)

-- Steve thinks it's well worth the read, though.

  • 08.26.2004 9:38 AM PDT

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Bad form to double-post, I know, but I'd forgotten to address one of eMCee's points:

Posted by: eMCee
I've thought about the skull thing too, and it opens up many interesting possibilites. It seems like you agree that the Security Officer of the Marathon is reincarnated, so if that is true, then you have to wonder if Durandal's primal pattern is carried through time with the Security Officer.

I was thinking "reborn" more of the jump from ex-soldier to cyborg, and not a metaphysical reincarnation. We can't rule out reincarnation entirely, but I'm inclined to exclude it for now to chase down some more prosaic interpretations. Alternate realities are weird enough!

The "drink from the Lethe" reference was to something I vaguely remember reading on the MSP about cyborgs having their memories erased upon conversion... I must admit that I'm heavily influenced by the movie Universal Soldier in this interpretation, but it's a reasonably good fit.

-- Steve's going to leave unaddressed possible direct ties between Marathon and Halo... which is kinda hypocritical, he guesses, considering what he did for his spring vacation.

  • 08.26.2004 4:56 PM PDT
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Not that chatting with me isn't nice eh eMCee? :P

Your notes about the knife being referred to as the 'Durability' also runs with my theory... Durandal is a sword in mythology (possibly in different spelling) and his picture has always been a sword (trying in with the mythology)

I'm amazed how much like the "Mulling over Marathon" thread this seems to be becoming :P... not that I'm complaining... I did love that thread eversomuch :D

  • 08.26.2004 11:48 PM PDT