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This topic has moved here: Subject: Is the Flood... *Cryptum spoilers*
  • Subject: Is the Flood... *Cryptum spoilers*
Subject: Is the Flood... *Cryptum spoilers*
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Precursor? I got that impression reading what the Captive said at the very end of the book.

  • 01.19.2011 7:50 AM PDT
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I got the impression that the precursors either created/discovered teh Flood for use against Forerunners.

  • 01.19.2011 8:15 AM PDT

God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble. Therefore will not we fear, though the earth be removed, and though the mountains be carried into the midst of the sea; Though the waters thereof roar and be troubled, though the mountains shake with the swelling thereof.” – Psalms 46:1-3

Either the flood was created by the Forerunner or the precursors are actually at war with it themselves.

  • 01.19.2011 9:00 AM PDT

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Posted by: angry0lbgrampa
Either the flood was created by the Forerunner or the precursors are actually at war with it themselves.
Did you finish the book? Of all the scenarios presented by the revelation on the last page, I think that's the least likely.

  • 01.19.2011 9:14 AM PDT
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I also had a gut feeling that it was a Precursor when I first heard about it, but then I thought that maybe it was Gravemind. Who knows? Maybe it was an infected Precursor, or it could become infected and become the Gravemind eventually. It would make sense for the all knowing, eternal Gravemind to actually have been a Precursor.

  • 01.19.2011 9:22 AM PDT

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One thing I think we need to keep in mind is that The Captive was originally being held using Precursor technology. If The Captive was in fact Precursor, then I have a feeling he wasn't a shining example of the civilization's ideals.

  • 01.19.2011 9:45 AM PDT

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Posted by: Primo84
One thing I think we need to keep in mind is that The Captive was originally being held using Precursor technology. If The Captive was in fact Precursor, then I have a feeling he wasn't a shining example of the civilization's ideals.


At this point, who knows? Everything we had thought or accepted had been put in question by the first chapter, ANYTHING is a possibility now.

I'm starting to see cyrclic theme here though:

Foreruners attack prescusors, perscusors die out by mysterious cause, persuscusors pass on the mantle to forerunners and/or humans, become mysterious super advanced aliens to forerunners and humans, humans attack forerunners, forerunners die out from myestrious cause (flood), which was unleashed due to messing with artifacts, pass on mantle to humans, become super advanced aleins to humans and covies, who get attacked by flood by messing with halos, etc.

  • 01.19.2011 11:10 AM PDT

What I came away with was that the Precursors and Forerunners went to war, the Forerunners won, and the Precursors, as a last resort, "evolved" themselves into the Flood or something like that as last, final, nearly unstoppable revenge on the Forerunners themselves.
Gravemind's line "A monument to all your sins"....kinda took a new dimension with that info for me, like the Precursor/Flood was saying "All you have built, all you have destroyed to to make your empire number one, will be undone by what you forced us to create...." something like that anyways.

  • 01.19.2011 12:53 PM PDT

OMG a Pwny!

I got that the Prisoner was an infected Precursor, for whatever reason the Flood couldn't properly infect the Precursor, so the Precursors imprisoned him for research. That's my theory.

  • 01.19.2011 1:43 PM PDT
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The Gravemind is supposedly eternal. I can't remember if it's been directly said, but it is heavily implied. This makes me think that the Gravemind from Halo 2 and 3 is the same that fought the Forerunners all those millenniums ago. Then there is this qoute from Halo 3...

Said by: Gravemind - Said on Halo.
Resignation is my virtue; like water I ebb, and flow. Defeat is simply the addition of time to a sentence I never deserved... but you imposed.

Now, this seems to make no sense back in Halo 3. What sentence? Who imposed it? It seemed to be just more mindless blathering of the Gravemind at the time, but now... I'm not so sure. If I (we?) are right, and the captive is/became the Gravemind, it makes a lot of sense. The Humans and/or Forerunners captured and imprisoned a Precursor (possibly infected) on Charum Harkor (I hope I spelled that right. >_>). His sentence was his imprisonment. He didn't deserve it because he possibly was just a soldier who was on the losing side of a battle and was taken as a POW for thousands upon thousands of years. He sees the Humans and remembers them from his past, especially Master Chief who also resembles Forerunner with his "combat skin". So, making some assumptions, the meaning of that quote becomes something like this. He ebbs and flows like water; at times he and the Flood (possible Precursors too) are strong, but then they suffer a defeat and the tide of the flood recedes... Only to come back some time later. Defeat, not death, which the Gravemind would never assume that he could die since he has lived for hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of years, means for the Gravemind imprisonment once more. Presumably, the Gravemind is the Captive Precursor from Charum Harkor, who was imprisoned there for God only knows how long, to finally be released by Mendicant Bias' Halo testing. Then, I'd say that the Gravemind never left his Halo. He had an ultimate weapon that he could use to guide his infected fleets to consume the galaxy. This Halo would become Delta Halo, where he resided until he took over High Charity. After the Forerunners activate the Halo rings, the Gravemind was SEVERELY weakened, and the Sentinels could finally overpower him and trap him and his Flood on the ring. Where they continued to fight for 100,000 years.

  • 01.19.2011 4:01 PM PDT
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Posted by: chotato
smart, interesting, seems out of place.


Official fan of Assassin's Creed, Call of Duty, (Problem with that?) Halo, and Bungie, also a total gaming junkie.

They made it as a "going away" present for the Forerunners.

  • 01.19.2011 4:22 PM PDT


Posted by: The Sizzler
The Gravemind is supposedly eternal. I can't remember if it's been directly said, but it is heavily implied. This makes me think that the Gravemind from Halo 2 and 3 is the same that fought the Forerunners all those millenniums ago. Then there is this qoute from Halo 3...

Said by: Gravemind - Said on Halo.
Resignation is my virtue; like water I ebb, and flow. Defeat is simply the addition of time to a sentence I never deserved... but you imposed.

Now, this seems to make no sense back in Halo 3. What sentence? Who imposed it? It seemed to be just more mindless blathering of the Gravemind at the time, but now... I'm not so sure. If I (we?) are right, and the captive is/became the Gravemind, it makes a lot of sense. The Humans and/or Forerunners captured and imprisoned a Precursor (possibly infected) on Charum Harkor (I hope I spelled that right. >_>). His sentence was his imprisonment. He didn't deserve it because he possibly was just a soldier who was on the losing side of a battle and was taken as a POW for thousands upon thousands of years. He sees the Humans and remembers them from his past, especially Master Chief who also resembles Forerunner with his "combat skin". So, making some assumptions, the meaning of that quote becomes something like this. He ebbs and flows like water; at times he and the Flood (possible Precursors too) are strong, but then they suffer a defeat and the tide of the flood recedes... Only to come back some time later. Defeat, not death, which the Gravemind would never assume that he could die since he has lived for hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of years, means for the Gravemind imprisonment once more. Presumably, the Gravemind is the Captive Precursor from Charum Harkor, who was imprisoned there for God only knows how long, to finally be released by Mendicant Bias' Halo testing. Then, I'd say that the Gravemind never left his Halo. He had an ultimate weapon that he could use to guide his infected fleets to consume the galaxy. This Halo would become Delta Halo, where he resided until he took over High Charity. After the Forerunners activate the Halo rings, the Gravemind was SEVERELY weakened, and the Sentinels could finally overpower him and trap him and his Flood on the ring. Where they continued to fight for 100,000 years.


To better fortify the Gravemind being eternal and all, the Precursors were hundreds of millions of years old, with some ruins of their's being sucked under planets via plate-tectonics. Those ruins would reemerge millions of years later unscathed.

It would seem--based upon the description for Neural Physics--that the Precursors were "at one" with the universe, that they were truley gods. Indesctructable, immortal, or as you say, eternal, which is why no amount of fighting can perminantly kill the Gravemind or its Flood puppets.

Invincible, just like their technology. This would also explain why the Halo Rings are the only weapon that has any hope in hell of even harming the Gravemind. It seems that, as neural weapons, the Halo destroyes the essence of the universe, or "kills" the area of the universe it is fired in.

Remember, Precursors and their technology were based upon the philosophy the universe itself was alive. Creating a weapon that can "kill" the universe would be the only effective way to harm or kill the Mind if he was a Precursor.

And perhaps the Precursors vanished due to knowing their time in this universe was up, that they would need to pass down the Mantle to another, younger race.

Thus, the Forerunners and humans were born and the Precursors left the universe forever to ascend to an even higher state of being.

This could explain the jealous notion one possibly insane Precursor had (and was consequently locked up for it and left behind), that the Forerunners were the cause of the Precursors' vanishing. They were the result, not the means, just like how the Forerunners' fired the Halo Rings, then left, but the Covenant thought the Rings were the means, when they were the result.

In creating two races to inherit the Mantle (and apparently imposing a genetic code in both stating they were to protect all life in the universe), the Precursors garunteed the Mantle would survive.

  • 01.19.2011 6:48 PM PDT
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Also, they said that after beating humanity they deevolved them into several different things. Is that where races come from? Like, some they deevolved into black people, some into white people, some into Asians, etc.?

  • 01.20.2011 7:28 AM PDT

Great thread people.

I think there are a few possible scenarios, given what we know.
What we do know: Precursors destroyed by Forerunners; Flood first attacked ancient humans, was repelled; may not have affected Prophets; Forerunner found 'Prisoner' in Precursor-built cell, he has some knowledge of the Flood and seems to suggest that it is the Precursor's 'answer' to the Forerunners treason; Flood returned some centuries later, or some remnants were stumbled upon, and the Forerunner had a new infestation on their hands; Forerunners were at stalemate with the Flood until Mendicant Bias defected; MB defected soon after meeting and releasing the Prisoner (using a Halo); either MB or the Prisoner is the 'new Master' of the Flood; Forerunner fire rings to end infestation, though some Flood remain on the rings themselves, including Gravemind (unless Gravemind just spawns once any infestation meets a critical mass).

So possible scenarios:

- The Prisoner was a rogue Precursor who created the Flood. They punished him by putting him in an indestructable Prison for all eternity... and maybe changing him into a hideous monster (devolution?). When the Flood break out in this galaxy, Prisoner can direct them with his mind and gets himself out of jail.

- The Prisoner did something bad and was imprisoned; when the Flood come he sees it as his chance to escape the prison, by using Mendicant Bias and the Halo ring (which is the only thing that can destroy his prison walls); once loose, he gets up to his old tricks for the hell of it. The origin of the Flood is never explained, except as being an inevitable 'next stage' in the evolution of the universe

- the Precursors can defeat the Flood, but once the Forerunner pissed them off they just left us to fend for ourselves

- the Forerunner created the Flood so they could wipe out their main rivals, the humans

- the Prophets created the Flood (to which they are mysteriously immune) so they could backstab humanity and make a deal with the Forerunners. then the Forerunners backstabbed them in turn

- the Precursors ARE the flood, and they were once symbiotic/docile until Forerunners/Humans (perhaps when they were both the same race) decided to wipe them out. The humans imprisoned the Gravemind

- the Precursors are the flood, and they just keep coming back again and again, empire after empire, the cycle repeats itself

Hmm

One thing i'm relatively sure of however is that Precursor architecture is 'alive' or 'intelligent' - that it uses neural physics. Therefore only a Halo firing can reduce the 'ruins' to rubble. MB attenuated the Halo signal just enough to burst the prison walls on Cherum Hakor and free the Captive

Incidentally the Captive being Gravemind makes sense from a name perspective - he's like a mind trapped in a tomb, buried alive.

One thing that nobody's mentioned -
how is it that the humans knew how to communicate with the Captive

  • 01.20.2011 7:33 AM PDT

Posted by: The Sizzler
Also, they said that after beating humanity they deevolved them into several different things. Is that where races come from? Like, some they deevolved into black people, some into white people, some into Asians, etc.?


Hmm or maybe Neanderthals and other sapien variants which we know used to exist (there used to be 'hobbit sized' people somewhere before modern humans evolved).

Remember the Librarian/LifeShaper indexed some humans BEFORE they were devolved. Though I suspect she would be nice enough to re-seed the 'devolved' ones too

  • 01.20.2011 7:35 AM PDT

Perhaps the precursors are graveminds and the flood was created to feed themselves...or something.

  • 01.20.2011 7:36 AM PDT
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Posted by: Traxus 04
One thing that nobody's mentioned -
how is it that the humans knew how to communicate with the Captive

Perhaps the Forerunners were made to build and create, and the humans were made to use.

Plus, it could be why the Forerunners called humans "Reclaimers". They reclaimed Precursor and Forerunner artifacts.

  • 01.20.2011 7:37 AM PDT
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Posted by: Traxus 04
Posted by: The Sizzler
Also, they said that after beating humanity they deevolved them into several different things. Is that where races come from? Like, some they deevolved into black people, some into white people, some into Asians, etc.?


Hmm or maybe Neanderthals and other sapien variants which we know used to exist (there used to be 'hobbit sized' people somewhere before modern humans evolved).

Remember the Librarian/LifeShaper indexed some humans BEFORE they were devolved. Though I suspect she would be nice enough to re-seed the 'devolved' ones too

That makes a lot more sense and I am now kicking myself for not thinking of it.

  • 01.20.2011 7:38 AM PDT

As i read the book, i had the feeling that it was a Gravemind who was being held captive.

However, Graveminds are not eternal. I think it is in the encyclapedia, that says that 'once the flood reached a cirtain mass, it forms a central inteligence.'


  • 01.20.2011 7:59 AM PDT

I think the captive was an infected precursor by description. It was still intelligent so perhaps it was a gravemind of sorts with a host as the creature was huge. The description of the planet left me to believe that precursors were similar to humans in size as we lived in their ruins, further giving reason to my theory. However his last statements do confuse my theory.

  • 01.20.2011 3:05 PM PDT

Posted by: Astrogenesis 1
As i read the book, i had the feeling that it was a Gravemind who was being held captive.

However, Graveminds are not eternal. I think it is in the encyclapedia, that says that 'once the flood reached a cirtain mass, it forms a central inteligence.'




That is true, but Graveminds appear to gain the memories of the ones that followed (which, as I type this, sounds a awful like Forerunner mutation and the Domain) which is how the Gravemind in the trilogy knew he had defeated, "Fleets of thousands."

  • 01.20.2011 3:14 PM PDT
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Anyone else get the feeling that the Domain being effed up was something to do with Flood interference?

  • 01.20.2011 3:42 PM PDT
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Posted by: The Sizzler
Anyone else get the feeling that the Domain being effed up was something to do with Flood interference?

Actually, I think it was just Mendicant Bias actively sabotaging the Forerunners.

  • 01.20.2011 4:02 PM PDT