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Subject: Covenant in the books VS. in the Games

From my understanding the novels and games are basically unrelated in terms of the technical dealings. Intelligence and fighting in particular, the games have been drastically changed for the sake of gameplay.

I still hold to the belief that there is no way in hell humanity should have "won" the war with the Covenant. Humanity was simply outnumbered, outgunned, and outmaneuvered on virtually every front. In space, they needed a 3-1 advantage just to stand a chance of winning. As Halsey stated in Ghosts of Onyx, they could only survive the war.

  • 01.20.2011 9:47 PM PDT


Posted by: chickenlittle
From my understanding the novels and games are basically unrelated in terms of the technical dealings. Intelligence and fighting in particular, the games have been drastically changed for the sake of gameplay.

I still hold to the belief that there is no way in hell humanity should have "won" the war with the Covenant. Humanity was simply outnumbered, outgunned, and outmaneuvered on virtually every front. In space, they needed a 3-1 advantage just to stand a chance of winning. As Halsey stated in Ghosts of Onyx, they could only survive the war.


The covenant really did screw it up for themselves.

  • 01.20.2011 9:50 PM PDT

Posted by: mercenary335

Posted by: chickenlittle
From my understanding the novels and games are basically unrelated in terms of the technical dealings. Intelligence and fighting in particular, the games have been drastically changed for the sake of gameplay.

I still hold to the belief that there is no way in hell humanity should have "won" the war with the Covenant. Humanity was simply outnumbered, outgunned, and outmaneuvered on virtually every front. In space, they needed a 3-1 advantage just to stand a chance of winning. As Halsey stated in Ghosts of Onyx, they could only survive the war.


The covenant really did screw it up for themselves.
They most certainly did.

  • 01.20.2011 10:00 PM PDT
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Humanity was getting destroyed pretty hard by the Covenant. The thing that saved them was the Prophets' stupid decision to get rid of the Elites, and their preoccupation with the Ark and the Great Journey in the endgame of the war.

As for why there are never any ships on screen, remember that most (or a lot, anyways) of the cutscenes in Halo are rendered real time. Rendering hundreds of ships with any kind of detail would probably be taxing.

  • 01.20.2011 10:03 PM PDT

Posted by: Hovemond
Humanity was getting destroyed pretty hard by the Covenant. The thing that saved them was the Prophets' stupid decision to get rid of the Elites, and their preoccupation with the Ark and the Great Journey in the endgame of the war.

As for why there are never any ships on screen, remember that most (or a lot, anyways) of the cutscenes in Halo are rendered real time. Rendering hundreds of ships with any kind of detail would probably be taxing.
There weren't hundreds of ships aside from the cutscene at the end of Regret in Halo 2 and the cutscene when they start destroying each other. Only a few dozen, if cutscenes are to be believed.

  • 01.20.2011 10:07 PM PDT

Posted by: Wazooty
In the books a fleet is like....hundreds of ships.

In the games the big fleet at the ultimate battle on earth for the fate of the universe is......

30 ships.


Severely lacking in epic.
What you see is not the fleet at the battle. What you see is the fleet after the battle.

The 30 ships are what's left of the fleet that waged a 3 week space battle all around Earth. They had to deal with the Home Fleet and 298 super mac cannons.

It was a close fight.


The Covenant fleet was depleted incredibly quickly in autumn 2552. The 300/700 ships that attacked Reach, the
500 ships at the uneven elephant, the 1000 ships of the High Charity fleet, the hundreds of ships of the Combined Fleet of Righteours Purpose, all the ships that attacked Earth. All lost very quickly. Their military was a shadow of its old self by the time the Battle of Earth was over.

  • 01.20.2011 10:29 PM PDT


Posted by: mercenary335
1. read 1st Strike
2. read The Impossible Life And Possible Death of Preston J. Cole
3. come to complete understanding of how and why humanity stood a chance.


1. I have read First Strike, and the Covenant were still portrayed as effortlessly handing humanity their collective asses, the one exception being the "Uneven Elephant" escapade.
2. I have not read that one yet, only know the basics of Cole's possible end.
3. I've always thought that humanity stood a chance, that's why the Covenant feel so overpowered in the books. The Hunters are the only things that feel right about things in the books.

  • 01.21.2011 9:25 AM PDT

For the unsc it was luck. I agree though.

  • 01.21.2011 9:30 AM PDT
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The Covie's are supposed to be overpowered, remember, if we were at war with aliens on earth right now, and they beat us at everything, people wouldn't be saying, "Hey aliens! Your a little OP!"

  • 01.21.2011 9:39 AM PDT

By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.

Posted by: mercenary335
1. read 1st Strike
2. read The Impossible Life And Possible Death of Preston J. Cole
3. come to complete understanding of how and why humanity stood a chance.


Humanity only won against the Covenant when they outnumbered them 3 to 1, otherwise they just failed.

  • 01.21.2011 9:55 AM PDT

Posted by: ajw34307
Posted by: mercenary335
1. read 1st Strike
2. read The Impossible Life And Possible Death of Preston J. Cole
3. come to complete understanding of how and why humanity stood a chance.


Humanity only won against the Covenant when they outnumbered them 3 to 1, otherwise they just failed.
Except near the endgame, where skilled admirals like Stanforth and Patterson were able to win battles from 2-to-1 situations using some clever tactics. The 315-150 Reach was pretty close too, thanks to excellent usage of the heaviest weapons available at that time.

  • 01.21.2011 10:12 AM PDT

Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien.
Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar.
tenn' Ambar-metta!

The difference of a Game battle from a Novel Battle is this:

A Game battle is for a person to have fun and have a challenge ok?

A Novel battle is people in a "real situation".

My point here is, a Novel battle is depicted as a "real situation" Those Spartans and those Covies fight trying not to die, cause if they die, that's it!

For a game purpose is the same, the covenant is made to be at some level difficult for enternainment only.

If you were to fight a real highly trained Covenant group of a highly trained Elite, I bet (even you been a Spartan) you wouldn't be able to win, leading you to get pissed of.

What I mean is, you as a player (specially kids) wouldn't be able to defeat a highly trained military unit, know how to flank, plan and execute a real military mission. Unless you are a real marine or soldier playing a military game.

[Edited on 01.21.2011 11:10 AM PST]

  • 01.21.2011 11:07 AM PDT


Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: mercenary335
1. read 1st Strike
2. read The Impossible Life And Possible Death of Preston J. Cole
3. come to complete understanding of how and why humanity stood a chance.


1. I have read First Strike, and the Covenant were still portrayed as effortlessly handing humanity their collective asses, the one exception being the "Uneven Elephant" escapade.
2. I have not read that one yet, only know the basics of Cole's possible end.
3. I've always thought that humanity stood a chance, that's why the Covenant feel so overpowered in the books. The Hunters are the only things that feel right about things in the books.


Then you know that the destruction of the Unyielding Heirophant was the only reason Earth didnt get steam-rolled.

  • 01.21.2011 11:40 AM PDT

Weapon of Oppression


Posted by: Rolling Flame
OP, I think you're forgetting that, just as the Covies become stronger in the books, so does the UNSC. In the games, it can take a quarter of a magazine from a Assault Rifle to drop a Grunt. In the books, 3 rounds is more than sufficient. Don't forget that the standard soldiers become a lot more competent, unlike their AI counterparts, who shoot at walls, or throws grenades at their allies.


Yeah and in the books, the shields of the Elites, are severely weakened.
The elites could only take 3 rounds from an assault rifle to kill them in the novels.
I haven't read anywhere, where an elite was capable of tanking an entire magazine from and assault rifle or even a damn magnum sidearm.
If anything, the games make the covenant seem more powerful, in terms of health and shielding.

  • 01.21.2011 12:15 PM PDT


Posted by: ajw34307
Posted by: mercenary335
1. read 1st Strike
2. read The Impossible Life And Possible Death of Preston J. Cole
3. come to complete understanding of how and why humanity stood a chance.


Humanity only won against the Covenant when they outnumbered them 3 to 1, otherwise they just failed.


Then explain why Cortana says in Halo:CE "A dozen Covenant superior battleships against a single Halcyon-class Cruiser. Given those odds, I'm content with three... make that four kills." How do you explain this, hmmm? That seems to indicate to me that the whole 3 to 1 ratio is complete bull--blam!-.

  • 01.21.2011 2:02 PM PDT


Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: ajw34307
Posted by: mercenary335
1. read 1st Strike
2. read The Impossible Life And Possible Death of Preston J. Cole
3. come to complete understanding of how and why humanity stood a chance.


Humanity only won against the Covenant when they outnumbered them 3 to 1, otherwise they just failed.


Then explain why Cortana says in Halo:CE "A dozen Covenant superior battleships against a single Halcyon-class Cruiser. Given those odds, I'm content with three... make that four kills." How do you explain this, hmmm? That seems to indicate to me that the whole 3 to 1 ratio is complete bull--blam!-.



The Pillar of Autumn was the most advanced Halcyon Cruiser created, with high powered fusion reactors and a MAC cannon with three firings per charge, and shredder rounds, plus the most advanced AI ever created by the UNSC

  • 01.21.2011 2:32 PM PDT

Lets Boogie

Well there are some things the same. In the book "The Flood", somewhere it mentions it takes around 50 MA5B rounds to kill an Elite, this is around the same amount that is used in killing normal elites in Halo CE.

  • 01.21.2011 2:34 PM PDT

Legendary is as close as you can get. in real life the chief would be wayyy better than you can play with him because he has 6 times faster reflexes and can dodge a friggin missile in HFoR. But youre correct the covenant seem too powerful. Chief has to fight hand to hand with an elite to kill it and jackals seem to be as hard to kill in real life as hunters are in the game

  • 01.21.2011 2:39 PM PDT


Posted by: zak2014

Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: ajw34307
Posted by: mercenary335
1. read 1st Strike
2. read The Impossible Life And Possible Death of Preston J. Cole
3. come to complete understanding of how and why humanity stood a chance.


Humanity only won against the Covenant when they outnumbered them 3 to 1, otherwise they just failed.


Then explain why Cortana says in Halo:CE "A dozen Covenant superior battleships against a single Halcyon-class Cruiser. Given those odds, I'm content with three... make that four kills." How do you explain this, hmmm? That seems to indicate to me that the whole 3 to 1 ratio is complete bull--blam!-.



The Pillar of Autumn was the most advanced Halcyon Cruiser created, with high powered fusion reactors and a MAC cannon with three firings per charge, and shredder rounds, plus the most advanced AI ever created by the UNSC


Note that she said Halcyon Cruiser, she doesn't mention it being because it's the Pillar of Autumn. And the AI being Cortana has nothing to do with it either.

  • 01.21.2011 3:34 PM PDT


Posted by: HLG ROGUE16
Legendary is as close as you can get. in real life the chief would be wayyy better than you can play with him because he has 6 times faster reflexes and can dodge a friggin missile in HFoR. But youre correct the covenant seem too powerful. Chief has to fight hand to hand with an elite to kill it and jackals seem to be as hard to kill in real life as hunters are in the game


Exactly, that's the sort of thing I'm talking about, and the power of the plasma pistols, it mentions them melting through things, I mean I know the game can't show everything accurately, but they shouldn't be as efficient at killing marines and Spartans as they are. Or the Needlers, it mentions in the Flood that a Marine has his arm blown up by only one or two needles, whereas in the game they just seem to kinda pop with no negative affect, unless it's a super-combine.

And also it says in the Flood that Banshee Bombs melt off a Warthog turret and completely trash the 'Hog.

  • 01.21.2011 3:41 PM PDT
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CoD is a good game, even if the Halo series are better in some aspects. Anyone who insults either is just bad in that game. Grow up.


Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: ajw34307
Posted by: mercenary335
1. read 1st Strike
2. read The Impossible Life And Possible Death of Preston J. Cole
3. come to complete understanding of how and why humanity stood a chance.


Humanity only won against the Covenant when they outnumbered them 3 to 1, otherwise they just failed.


Then explain why Cortana says in Halo:CE "A dozen Covenant superior battleships against a single Halcyon-class Cruiser. Given those odds, I'm content with three... make that four kills." How do you explain this, hmmm? That seems to indicate to me that the whole 3 to 1 ratio is complete bull--blam!-.

Lol, at first when you started your threads I thought that you're coming from a relatively objective standpoint, but at this point it is damn clear that you're just plain hating on non-game canon.

The novels are better stroy tellers, simply because of the fact that they are novels. Games are limited by the technology and motivation of the developers, whereas novels are really only limited by imagination, and that's why things in novels make far more sense than the single dimension telling of stories found in FPS games.

That being said, what you said does nothing to prove your point. We know that the only reason that happened was because the Covenant did not want to damage the ring, and instead sent boarding parties to attack the PoA. All the while, Cortana was sniping their ships out with the specialized MAC gun. As you mentioned, the covenant did, in fact, start shooting at the Autumn in the end. I do not know if there is an explanation for it; it's been a while since I've read the Flood, but if I were to make a logical speculation, it would be because Keyes was making course to crash land on the Halo and the Covenant-being fanatical about protecting the sacred rings-decided to shoot it down before it has a chance to crash land. They failed, of course.

Cortana specially saying Halcyon Class Cruiser doesn't mean that any other person could have done the same. In fact, the case is quite rare, as you probably know, Halcyon Cruisers are known for being incredibly tough, being able to function even with 90% Hull damage. However, they are also old and have been replaced in the mainline by other types of UNSC ships.

The point being that the PoA is not just another UNSC ship. Even before being refitted it had extremely strong survivability. Then, when it was chosen for Operation: Red Flag, it was upgraded with the most effective MAC gun in the UNSC navy, as well as the most advanced Shaw-Fujikawa Slipspace drive available to the humans.

And we cannot forget that it was captained by one of the most brilliant tacticians in the UNSC, second only to Cole, as well as the most advanced Smart AI in the UNSC.

With all of these different factors, of course the PoA would do more than its share, but that doesn't mean every single ship in the entire UNSC navy can do the same.

So again, no, the covenant are not overpowered, if that is even possible. The games simply make both sides look weaker for gameplay purposes.

  • 01.21.2011 4:22 PM PDT


Posted by: Beowolfe

Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: ajw34307
Posted by: mercenary335
1. read 1st Strike
2. read The Impossible Life And Possible Death of Preston J. Cole
3. come to complete understanding of how and why humanity stood a chance.


Humanity only won against the Covenant when they outnumbered them 3 to 1, otherwise they just failed.


Then explain why Cortana says in Halo:CE "A dozen Covenant superior battleships against a single Halcyon-class Cruiser. Given those odds, I'm content with three... make that four kills." How do you explain this, hmmm? That seems to indicate to me that the whole 3 to 1 ratio is complete bull--blam!-.

Lol, at first when you started your threads I thought that you're coming from a relatively objective standpoint, but at this point it is damn clear that you're just plain hating on non-game canon.

The novels are better stroy tellers, simply because of the fact that they are novels. Games are limited by the technology and motivation of the developers, whereas novels are really only limited by imagination, and that's why things in novels make far more sense than the single dimension telling of stories found in FPS games.

That being said, what you said does nothing to prove your point. We know that the only reason that happened was because the Covenant did not want to damage the ring, and instead sent boarding parties to attack the PoA. All the while, Cortana was sniping their ships out with the specialized MAC gun. As you mentioned, the covenant did, in fact, start shooting at the Autumn in the end. I do not know if there is an explanation for it; it's been a while since I've read the Flood, but if I were to make a logical speculation, it would be because Keyes was making course to crash land on the Halo and the Covenant-being fanatical about protecting the sacred rings-decided to shoot it down before it has a chance to crash land. They failed, of course.

Cortana specially saying Halcyon Class Cruiser doesn't mean that any other person could have done the same. In fact, the case is quite rare, as you probably know, Halcyon Cruisers are known for being incredibly tough, being able to function even with 90% Hull damage. However, they are also old and have been replaced in the mainline by other types of UNSC ships.

The point being that the PoA is not just another UNSC ship. Even before being refitted it had extremely strong survivability. Then, when it was chosen for Operation: Red Flag, it was upgraded with the most effective MAC gun in the UNSC navy, as well as the most advanced Shaw-Fujikawa Slipspace drive available to the humans.

And we cannot forget that it was captained by one of the most brilliant tacticians in the UNSC, second only to Cole, as well as the most advanced Smart AI in the UNSC.

With all of these different factors, of course the PoA would do more than its share, but that doesn't mean every single ship in the entire UNSC navy can do the same.

So again, no, the covenant are not overpowered, if that is even possible. The games simply make both sides look weaker for gameplay purposes.


On the contrary, I love the books, they are awesome pieces of literature, I just think that they do a very poor job portraying the power of the Covenant and taking it to a level far too extreme. I love all the materials in the vast Halo media, I'm just not afraid to state the problems I have with each.

Books and games are completely different media, there is no way the two can really be safely compared. It's like comparing apples and oranges. It is true that novels are often better, but that is because, as you pointed, because you can only do so much in a video game with the resources you have.

What I quoted means a great deal, Cortana says it before they are even boarded or before you see anything of the Covenant. Things may have turned out as you laid out, which the book says, but Cortana was not speaking in the moment of being assaulted, she was speaking of ship-to-ship combat.

  • 01.21.2011 5:20 PM PDT

The only reason we won the War was because of Halo. It may not seem like it at first glance, but every single bit of detail in the contemporary Halo story revolves around Halo and its discovery.

Without Halo, we most certainly would've lost.

  • 01.21.2011 7:44 PM PDT
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I think that the balance is well adjusted.

This is what I think about the matter. (you will have to forgive my poor spelling skills. I still struggle with the English language)

According to the books the Covenant is a super power, but they relay on high tech (higher than humanity's), brute force and large numbers. Meanwhile humanity relays on intelligence and strategy.

Humans, even though are small and weaker in comparison to the strongest races of the covenant and have weapons that still require kinetic force (bullets) have a HUGE advantage to the covenant. Thousands of years of warfare throughout humanities history. We learned that numbers are not everything, to pick our battles, the advantage of guerrilla type warfare, coordination, etc, etc.

The covenant have had alot of practice on that too, but keep in mind that the books portray the different races not as evolved (intellectually) as humans. They are like barbarians who were granted technology before their time. Pick any race and think about it. At least its how I see it. The only race that might be the exception are the San 'Shyuum (prophets): they are not only smart, but highly political which implies higher intellectual and social development.

In other words Humanity's limitations throughout its evolution have driven us to invent, adapt and innovate. Not only ethnologically and scientifically but social, political, in war tactics and in any other field that makes us who we are. The covenant don't have that. Most of them met the met the solution for their needs before they had the need itself.

This is just what I think. Remember the Fall of Reach: the covenant don't innovate, they imitate. That is their disadvantage. We are small and weak, but creative and adaptive. Victory is just a matter of time. That is why humans are better in the battlefield while the covies are better in space: they simply have more and better ships. And as far as the groundtroops go, I like how it is portrayed in the books and on the games. They are well balanced.

  • 01.21.2011 9:10 PM PDT

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