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Subject: Covenant in the books VS. in the Games
  • gamertag: An0nz
  • user homepage:

CoD is a good game, even if the Halo series are better in some aspects. Anyone who insults either is just bad in that game. Grow up.


Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: Beowolfe

Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: ajw34307
Posted by: mercenary335
1. read 1st Strike
2. read The Impossible Life And Possible Death of Preston J. Cole
3. come to complete understanding of how and why humanity stood a chance.


Humanity only won against the Covenant when they outnumbered them 3 to 1, otherwise they just failed.


Then explain why Cortana says in Halo:CE "A dozen Covenant superior battleships against a single Halcyon-class Cruiser. Given those odds, I'm content with three... make that four kills." How do you explain this, hmmm? That seems to indicate to me that the whole 3 to 1 ratio is complete bull--blam!-.

Lol, at first when you started your threads I thought that you're coming from a relatively objective standpoint, but at this point it is damn clear that you're just plain hating on non-game canon.

The novels are better stroy tellers, simply because of the fact that they are novels. Games are limited by the technology and motivation of the developers, whereas novels are really only limited by imagination, and that's why things in novels make far more sense than the single dimension telling of stories found in FPS games.

That being said, what you said does nothing to prove your point. We know that the only reason that happened was because the Covenant did not want to damage the ring, and instead sent boarding parties to attack the PoA. All the while, Cortana was sniping their ships out with the specialized MAC gun. As you mentioned, the covenant did, in fact, start shooting at the Autumn in the end. I do not know if there is an explanation for it; it's been a while since I've read the Flood, but if I were to make a logical speculation, it would be because Keyes was making course to crash land on the Halo and the Covenant-being fanatical about protecting the sacred rings-decided to shoot it down before it has a chance to crash land. They failed, of course.

Cortana specially saying Halcyon Class Cruiser doesn't mean that any other person could have done the same. In fact, the case is quite rare, as you probably know, Halcyon Cruisers are known for being incredibly tough, being able to function even with 90% Hull damage. However, they are also old and have been replaced in the mainline by other types of UNSC ships.

The point being that the PoA is not just another UNSC ship. Even before being refitted it had extremely strong survivability. Then, when it was chosen for Operation: Red Flag, it was upgraded with the most effective MAC gun in the UNSC navy, as well as the most advanced Shaw-Fujikawa Slipspace drive available to the humans.

And we cannot forget that it was captained by one of the most brilliant tacticians in the UNSC, second only to Cole, as well as the most advanced Smart AI in the UNSC.

With all of these different factors, of course the PoA would do more than its share, but that doesn't mean every single ship in the entire UNSC navy can do the same.

So again, no, the covenant are not overpowered, if that is even possible. The games simply make both sides look weaker for gameplay purposes.


On the contrary, I love the books, they are awesome pieces of literature, I just think that they do a very poor job portraying the power of the Covenant and taking it to a level far too extreme. I love all the materials in the vast Halo media, I'm just not afraid to state the problems I have with each.

Books and games are completely different media, there is no way the two can really be safely compared. It's like comparing apples and oranges. It is true that novels are often better, but that is because, as you pointed, because you can only do so much in a video game with the resources you have.

What I quoted means a great deal, Cortana says it before they are even boarded or before you see anything of the Covenant. Things may have turned out as you laid out, which the book says, but Cortana was not speaking in the moment of being assaulted, she was speaking of ship-to-ship combat.


I'm sorry, you're going to have to explain to me what you mean by your last paragraph, because if I'm understanding you correctly, then I still fail to see how that makes a difference. Were you talking about the space combat AT Reach or the one right above Installation 04?

My previous answers were based upon the latter battle, which, as I said, does not prove that the UNSC can always stand up to the Covenant in such a manner. The POA was not shot at until late in the battle, at which point I believe their MAC was offline already. The other additions to the PoA are still present as well, though they did not make as much of a direct difference to the conflict.

Again, and I believe this is the third time, the Covenant are not portrayed poorly in the novels, they, along with everyone else featured in the games, are portrayed poorly in the games.

I'll skip on the details I wanted to add because I'm going to start my own thread sometime this weekend on those issues, as I don't like writing walls of text as a response to another's thread.

  • 01.21.2011 9:37 PM PDT

i was also disapointed with the unsc frigate in the long night of solace i was expecting something hug with some amazing cannons instead it looked a bit pathetic and had tiny machine guns which didnt really match up with what we saw on halo 2 in cairo station

  • 01.21.2011 9:41 PM PDT

There is just something epic about pistols.

▀▄Halo 2 Strategy complete, Halo 3 Strategy in progress...▄▀
▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀MJOLNIR BATTLE TACTICS▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄

Posted by: OrderedComa
Regardless, I still think that the Covenant are portrayed as too powerful, there is no way the UNSC could have won, they would have been curb-stomped before the war even started the way the books show it.

Well, if you look at the story line, the humans actually were completely curb stomped and only won because the Flood and Elites helped them. If it weren't for the X factor the Halos played humanity would have died instantly.

  • 01.21.2011 10:08 PM PDT

Well in Halo Reach a single Covenant supercarrier nearly invades the planet, the other ships just finished Reach off.

One thing that is odd is how Brutes are all super powerful in the books compared to Bungie's description of 5 Brutes = 1 Elite.

  • 01.21.2011 10:13 PM PDT


Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: ajw34307
Posted by: mercenary335
1. read 1st Strike
2. read The Impossible Life And Possible Death of Preston J. Cole
3. come to complete understanding of how and why humanity stood a chance.


Humanity only won against the Covenant when they outnumbered them 3 to 1, otherwise they just failed.


Then explain why Cortana says in Halo:CE "A dozen Covenant superior battleships against a single Halcyon-class Cruiser. Given those odds, I'm content with three... make that four kills." How do you explain this, hmmm? That seems to indicate to me that the whole 3 to 1 ratio is complete bull--blam!-.


Dude, re-read that.
The PoA hypothetically takes out 3 to 4 Covie ships. Then is destroyed by the rest.
If there were 3x more PoA equivalent powered ships, then there'd be 9 to 12 destroyed Covie ships destroyed and therefore proving they could only win 3v1.

  • 01.21.2011 11:58 PM PDT

The strongest Rivals are also the strongest allies.

books =
-one shielded spartan is on par or weaker than an elite.
- one plasma round (PP) / needle round is fatal.

games = Murder! so much murder! (unstopable)

  • 01.22.2011 12:52 AM PDT
  • gamertag: An0nz
  • user homepage:

CoD is a good game, even if the Halo series are better in some aspects. Anyone who insults either is just bad in that game. Grow up.


Posted by: peejay567

Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: ajw34307
Posted by: mercenary335
1. read 1st Strike
2. read The Impossible Life And Possible Death of Preston J. Cole
3. come to complete understanding of how and why humanity stood a chance.


Humanity only won against the Covenant when they outnumbered them 3 to 1, otherwise they just failed.


Then explain why Cortana says in Halo:CE "A dozen Covenant superior battleships against a single Halcyon-class Cruiser. Given those odds, I'm content with three... make that four kills." How do you explain this, hmmm? That seems to indicate to me that the whole 3 to 1 ratio is complete bull--blam!-.


Dude, re-read that.
The PoA hypothetically takes out 3 to 4 Covie ships. Then is destroyed by the rest.
If there were 3x more PoA equivalent powered ships, then there'd be 9 to 12 destroyed Covie ships destroyed and therefore proving they could only win 3v1.


What are you talking about...Everyone but you is talking about the 3:1 ratio of UNSC ships vs Covenant ships, in that order. OrderedComa is trying to argue against that but the fact remains that the 3:1 is referring to UNSC vs Covenant, not Covenant vs UNSC...The PoA is also a special case to start with, and the circumstances under which it destroyed those 3-4 ships will probably never happen a second time. Normal Covenant vs UNSC space conflicts usually result in Covenant victory.

  • 01.22.2011 1:20 AM PDT

In memory of those fallen in the defense of Earth and her colonies.

March 3, 2553

Books dont have to worry about balancing.

  • 01.22.2011 3:02 AM PDT


Posted by: Beowolfe

Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: Beowolfe

Posted by: OrderedComa

[quote]Posted by: ajw34307
[quote]Posted by: mercenary335
1. read 1st Strike
2. read The Impossible Life And Possible Death of Preston J. Cole
3. come to complete understanding of how and why humanity stood a chance.


Humanity only won against the Covenant when they outnumbered them 3 to 1, otherwise they just failed.


Then explain why Cortana says in Halo:CE "A dozen Covenant superior battleships against a single Halcyon-class Cruiser. Given those odds, I'm content with three... make that four kills." How do you explain this, hmmm? That seems to indicate to me that the whole 3 to 1 ratio is complete bull--blam!-.



I'm sorry, you're going to have to explain to me what you mean by your last paragraph, because if I'm understanding you correctly, then I still fail to see how that makes a difference. Were you talking about the space combat AT Reach or the one right above Installation 04?

My previous answers were based upon the latter battle, which, as I said, does not prove that the UNSC can always stand up to the Covenant in such a manner. The POA was not shot at until late in the battle, at which point I believe their MAC was offline already. The other additions to the PoA are still present as well, though they did not make as much of a direct difference to the conflict.

Again, and I believe this is the third time, the Covenant are not portrayed poorly in the novels, they, along with everyone else featured in the games, are portrayed poorly in the games.

I'll skip on the details I wanted to add because I'm going to start my own thread sometime this weekend on those issues, as I don't like writing walls of text as a response to another's thread.


I'm talking about at Alpha Halo, not Reach, the quote is from the beginning of CE. What I'm saying is that if one ship, referred to in general terms of class only, can take out that many Covenant ships by itself then the 3:1 ratio is a load of bull.

Of course things are not accurate in the game, I never said they were. But the books most certainly do take Covenant military power too far, the way things are described in general in the books the UNSC should not have had any victories and lost every single battle.

  • 01.22.2011 12:14 PM PDT

Posted by:ScubaToaster
Posted by: HipiO7
This man, this man right here put it so eloquently that I actually cancelled my own 2000+ word long post.
/slow clap for respect


:)
The person who said participating is important, not winning, obviously never won anything.

Posted by: JamesLongstreet
Books don't need to worry about balanced gameplay, they have a lot more artistic freedom.

  • 01.22.2011 12:19 PM PDT
  • gamertag: An0nz
  • user homepage:

CoD is a good game, even if the Halo series are better in some aspects. Anyone who insults either is just bad in that game. Grow up.


Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: Beowolfe

Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: Beowolfe

Posted by: OrderedComa

[quote]Posted by: ajw34307
[quote]Posted by: mercenary335
1. read 1st Strike
2. read The Impossible Life And Possible Death of Preston J. Cole
3. come to complete understanding of how and why humanity stood a chance.


Humanity only won against the Covenant when they outnumbered them 3 to 1, otherwise they just failed.


Then explain why Cortana says in Halo:CE "A dozen Covenant superior battleships against a single Halcyon-class Cruiser. Given those odds, I'm content with three... make that four kills." How do you explain this, hmmm? That seems to indicate to me that the whole 3 to 1 ratio is complete bull--blam!-.



I'm sorry, you're going to have to explain to me what you mean by your last paragraph, because if I'm understanding you correctly, then I still fail to see how that makes a difference. Were you talking about the space combat AT Reach or the one right above Installation 04?

My previous answers were based upon the latter battle, which, as I said, does not prove that the UNSC can always stand up to the Covenant in such a manner. The POA was not shot at until late in the battle, at which point I believe their MAC was offline already. The other additions to the PoA are still present as well, though they did not make as much of a direct difference to the conflict.

Again, and I believe this is the third time, the Covenant are not portrayed poorly in the novels, they, along with everyone else featured in the games, are portrayed poorly in the games.

I'll skip on the details I wanted to add because I'm going to start my own thread sometime this weekend on those issues, as I don't like writing walls of text as a response to another's thread.


I'm talking about at Alpha Halo, not Reach, the quote is from the beginning of CE. What I'm saying is that if one ship, referred to in general terms of class only, can take out that many Covenant ships by itself then the 3:1 ratio is a load of bull.

Of course things are not accurate in the game, I never said they were. But the books most certainly do take Covenant military power too far, the way things are described in general in the books the UNSC should not have had any victories and lost every single battle.


And apparently you missed the point again.
What you said here, and I'm copying and pasting: "
What I'm saying is that if one ship, referred to in general terms of class only" is null. Cortana can call it whatever she wants to; She could have called it God's own Son of a -blam!- machine, and it wouldn't have mattered, because the situation was unique to the PoA and it alone. It's definitely not an indication that every single ship in the UNSC navy can do the same, hell, if you got that idea ever since playing Halo: CE, I guess that explains why you're perspective is so twisted. In no other canon, games or otherwise, has it ever been said that one single UNSC ship can take out 3-4 when it comes to straight up space combat. (meaning without addition of strategic maneuvers)


And I also have to say, what part of "The PoA was only able to take out those ships because of several factors that could only happen simultaneously once in a lifetime (including the fact that it was NOT shot at until late in the battle)" didn't you understand? The PoA was special, its crew is unique, and the circumstances in which it was in during the battle above Installation 04 was a rare-occurrence. Therefore, not EVERY UNSC ship is capable of doing so.

The Covenant ship technologies simply outclass the UNSC by far too much. The UNSC were doomed to lose, and that's why they wanted, nay, needed Operation: Red Flag. In terms of how the story eventually turned out, the only reason the UNSC survived was because of the interruption of the Halos, which caused a sequence of events that eventually turned out in humanity's favour.

The novels did a perfectly good job at portraying the Covenant, especially since they gave sensible explanations as to why they are powerful. Humans have their own advantages, and that's what made them distinctive, but the point of the Halo story has never been for humanity to win on their own. If that was the case, then the Halos would never have been needed.

Again, the games fail at portraying both sides, and if you choose that as your way of looking at Halo lore, your perspective would be base on the watered down version of story found in the games.

  • 01.22.2011 1:40 PM PDT


Posted by: Beowolfe
And apparently you missed the point again.
What you said here, and I'm copying and pasting: "
What I'm saying is that if one ship, referred to in general terms of class only" is null. Cortana can call it whatever she wants to; She could have called it God's own Son of a -blam!- machine, and it wouldn't have mattered, because the situation was unique to the PoA and it alone. It's definitely not an indication that every single ship in the UNSC navy can do the same, hell, if you got that idea ever since playing Halo: CE, I guess that explains why you're perspective is so twisted. In no other canon, games or otherwise, has it ever been said that one single UNSC ship can take out 3-4 when it comes to straight up space combat. (meaning without addition of strategic maneuvers)


And I also have to say, what part of "The PoA was only able to take out those ships because of several factors that could only happen simultaneously once in a lifetime (including the fact that it was NOT shot at until late in the battle)" didn't you understand? The PoA was special, its crew is unique, and the circumstances in which it was in during the battle above Installation 04 was a rare-occurrence. Therefore, not EVERY UNSC ship is capable of doing so.

The Covenant ship technologies simply outclass the UNSC by far too much. The UNSC were doomed to lose, and that's why they wanted, nay, needed Operation: Red Flag. In terms of how the story eventually turned out, the only reason the UNSC survived was because of the interruption of the Halos, which caused a sequence of events that eventually turned out in humanity's favour.

The novels did a perfectly good job at portraying the Covenant, especially since they gave sensible explanations as to why they are powerful. Humans have their own advantages, and that's what made them distinctive, but the point of the Halo story has never been for humanity to win on their own. If that was the case, then the Halos would never have been needed.

Again, the games fail at portraying both sides, and if you choose that as your way of looking at Halo lore, your perspective would be base on the watered down version of story found in the games.


How is it unique to the Autumn alone? What is your reasoning for that statement. And no, I haven't thought that ever since playing CE, I only started thinking that 3:1 is dumb since reading the books, the way the books portray things there should have been no UNSC victories at all, and Humanity should be completely or very nearly extinct.

Yeah, sure, the Halos are what turned the war around, every story needs some sort of plot device to occur or be discovered that turns the tables around. But that doesn't mean that Humanity absolutely needed to find them in order to win, that is absurd reasoning, that's like saying the Rebels needed to capture an AT-ST during the Battle of Endor, it sure did help, but they could have gotten into the shield bunker some other way.

I never said I relied on one or the other, imo, both the books and the games do poor job displaying the powers of each, the games are of course too easy, and the books are too skewed on the Covenant side.

  • 01.22.2011 2:09 PM PDT
  • gamertag: An0nz
  • user homepage:

CoD is a good game, even if the Halo series are better in some aspects. Anyone who insults either is just bad in that game. Grow up.


Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: Beowolfe
And apparently you missed the point again.
What you said here, and I'm copying and pasting: "
What I'm saying is that if one ship, referred to in general terms of class only" is null. Cortana can call it whatever she wants to; She could have called it God's own Son of a -blam!- machine, and it wouldn't have mattered, because the situation was unique to the PoA and it alone. It's definitely not an indication that every single ship in the UNSC navy can do the same, hell, if you got that idea ever since playing Halo: CE, I guess that explains why you're perspective is so twisted. In no other canon, games or otherwise, has it ever been said that one single UNSC ship can take out 3-4 when it comes to straight up space combat. (meaning without addition of strategic maneuvers)


And I also have to say, what part of "The PoA was only able to take out those ships because of several factors that could only happen simultaneously once in a lifetime (including the fact that it was NOT shot at until late in the battle)" didn't you understand? The PoA was special, its crew is unique, and the circumstances in which it was in during the battle above Installation 04 was a rare-occurrence. Therefore, not EVERY UNSC ship is capable of doing so.

The Covenant ship technologies simply outclass the UNSC by far too much. The UNSC were doomed to lose, and that's why they wanted, nay, needed Operation: Red Flag. In terms of how the story eventually turned out, the only reason the UNSC survived was because of the interruption of the Halos, which caused a sequence of events that eventually turned out in humanity's favour.

The novels did a perfectly good job at portraying the Covenant, especially since they gave sensible explanations as to why they are powerful. Humans have their own advantages, and that's what made them distinctive, but the point of the Halo story has never been for humanity to win on their own. If that was the case, then the Halos would never have been needed.

Again, the games fail at portraying both sides, and if you choose that as your way of looking at Halo lore, your perspective would be base on the watered down version of story found in the games.


How is it unique to the Autumn alone? What is your reasoning for that statement. And no, I haven't thought that ever since playing CE, I only started thinking that 3:1 is dumb since reading the books, the way the books portray things there should have been no UNSC victories at all, and Humanity should be completely or very nearly extinct.

Yeah, sure, the Halos are what turned the war around, every story needs some sort of plot device to occur or be discovered that turns the tables around. But that doesn't mean that Humanity absolutely needed to find them in order to win, that is absurd reasoning, that's like saying the Rebels needed to capture an AT-ST during the Battle of Endor, it sure did help, but they could have gotten into the shield bunker some other way.

I never said I relied on one or the other, imo, both the books and the games do poor job displaying the powers of each, the games are of course too easy, and the books are too skewed on the Covenant side.


I'm sorry, but if you still need to ask why the situation is unique to the PoA, then your comprehension levels are clearly inefficient, because I've got to have repeated the reasoning
at least 3 times, each time more elaborate than the previous. If you're just playing dumb, then I see no point in any further explanations on that topic.

You don't get it, do you? The Fall of Reach was what Bungie wanted the story to be like. Every game need a backstory, and theirs was in the novel. They wanted the covenant to be as they were described in the novels, because that is the major conflict in the entire story. Eric Nylund may have been hired by Microsoft, but he worked WITH Bungie's resources and materials in order to write the novel.

If the UNSC had the resources and ability to win the battle on their own, why would they need Operation: Red Flag? The story simply didn't follow that path, but rather their salvation was found through the sequence of events that led from discovering the Halos. Either way, humanity simply did not have what it takes to beat all of Covenant. And yes, the UNSC practically lost every single space battle against the Covenant, but that's what makes the Covenant alien, that's what makes them intimidating.

I don't know why you're challenging this fact. It is logical that the Covenant is powerful, as I explained in my very first post in this thread. I don't know how many times I have to repeat this, but the games make everyone look weak, the novels are how they're supposed to be. You think that only the Covenant gets a boost in the games, but the truth is the humans, as described in the novels, actually have far more tremendous improvement from their games counter-parts than the covenant does.

In the novels, the humans have the advantage of being ingenious. That's why they were able to achieve events such as those described in First Strike, GoO or even that novel about Admiral Cole. They adapted instead of imitated, and even though they were losing, they were doing far more than the Covenant probably expected. But you can't expect them to win, because the bottom line is that the UNSC was outnumbered and outgunned severely.

  • 01.22.2011 3:22 PM PDT


Posted by: Beowolfe

Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: Beowolfe
And apparently you missed the point again.
What you said here, and I'm copying and pasting: "
What I'm saying is that if one ship, referred to in general terms of class only" is null. Cortana can call it whatever she wants to; She could have called it God's own Son of a -blam!- machine, and it wouldn't have mattered, because the situation was unique to the PoA and it alone. It's definitely not an indication that every single ship in the UNSC navy can do the same, hell, if you got that idea ever since playing Halo: CE, I guess that explains why you're perspective is so twisted. In no other canon, games or otherwise, has it ever been said that one single UNSC ship can take out 3-4 when it comes to straight up space combat. (meaning without addition of strategic maneuvers)


And I also have to say, what part of "The PoA was only able to take out those ships because of several factors that could only happen simultaneously once in a lifetime (including the fact that it was NOT shot at until late in the battle)" didn't you understand? The PoA was special, its crew is unique, and the circumstances in which it was in during the battle above Installation 04 was a rare-occurrence. Therefore, not EVERY UNSC ship is capable of doing so.

The Covenant ship technologies simply outclass the UNSC by far too much. The UNSC were doomed to lose, and that's why they wanted, nay, needed Operation: Red Flag. In terms of how the story eventually turned out, the only reason the UNSC survived was because of the interruption of the Halos, which caused a sequence of events that eventually turned out in humanity's favour.

The novels did a perfectly good job at portraying the Covenant, especially since they gave sensible explanations as to why they are powerful. Humans have their own advantages, and that's what made them distinctive, but the point of the Halo story has never been for humanity to win on their own. If that was the case, then the Halos would never have been needed.

Again, the games fail at portraying both sides, and if you choose that as your way of looking at Halo lore, your perspective would be base on the watered down version of story found in the games.


How is it unique to the Autumn alone? What is your reasoning for that statement. And no, I haven't thought that ever since playing CE, I only started thinking that 3:1 is dumb since reading the books, the way the books portray things there should have been no UNSC victories at all, and Humanity should be completely or very nearly extinct.

Yeah, sure, the Halos are what turned the war around, every story needs some sort of plot device to occur or be discovered that turns the tables around. But that doesn't mean that Humanity absolutely needed to find them in order to win, that is absurd reasoning, that's like saying the Rebels needed to capture an AT-ST during the Battle of Endor, it sure did help, but they could have gotten into the shield bunker some other way.

I never said I relied on one or the other, imo, both the books and the games do poor job displaying the powers of each, the games are of course too easy, and the books are too skewed on the Covenant side.


I'm sorry, but if you still need to ask why the situation is unique to the PoA, then your comprehension levels are clearly inefficient, because I've got to have repeated the reasoning
at least 3 times, each time more elaborate than the previous. If you're just playing dumb, then I see no point in any further explanations on that topic.

You don't get it, do you? The Fall of Reach was what Bungie wanted the story to be like. Every game need a backstory, and theirs was in the novel. They wanted the covenant to be as they were described in the novels, because that is the major conflict in the entire story. Eric Nylund may have been hired by Microsoft, but he worked WITH Bungie's resources and materials in order to write the novel.

If the UNSC had the resources and ability to win the battle on their own, why would they need Operation: Red Flag? The story simply didn't follow that path, but rather their salvation was found through the sequence of events that led from discovering the Halos. Either way, humanity simply did not have what it takes to beat all of Covenant. And yes, the UNSC practically lost every single space battle against the Covenant, but that's what makes the Covenant alien, that's what makes them intimidating.

I don't know why you're challenging this fact. It is logical that the Covenant is powerful, as I explained in my very first post in this thread. I don't know how many times I have to repeat this, but the games make everyone look weak, the novels are how they're supposed to be. You think that only the Covenant gets a boost in the games, but the truth is the humans, as described in the novels, actually have far more tremendous improvement from their games counter-parts than the covenant does.

In the novels, the humans have the advantage of being ingenious. That's why they were able to achieve events such as those described in First Strike, GoO or even that novel about Admiral Cole. They adapted instead of imitated, and even though they were losing, they were doing far more than the Covenant probably expected. But you can't expect them to win, because the bottom line is that the UNSC was outnumbered and outgunned severely.


I really don't see anything unique about that scene. The Autumn is not much better than the standard ship-of-the-line for the UNSC. And I doubt the Covenant were only firing on it at the end of the first level, there is at least one point in the level where the ship is heavily rocked, and the boarding craft could not feasibly do that much buffeting. It is far more likely to have been some form of plasma armament, which would mean the Autumn was getting shot at most of that level.

I highly doubt that TFoR portrayed the Covenant exactly how Bungie wanted them to be, the whole 3:1, that may have been there, but I very very highly doubt that a single Covenant ship could destroy a UNSC one in a single round of plasma torpedoes. That is nonsensical, it should not be that powerful, the Covenant could have vaporized entire UNSC ships without any effort and probably no casualties if the plot did not say "the heroes have to live and their faction has to put up at least a little fight before being obliterated".

I agree, the games nerf everybody for gameplay purposes and that each side is better portrayed in the novels, however, I still do not think the portrayal of the Covenant is at all accurate in the books, no matter how brave, ingenious, strategic, or innovative the UNSC is, they should not have had any victories at all the way things are portrayed.

  • 01.23.2011 5:44 PM PDT
  • gamertag: An0nz
  • user homepage:

CoD is a good game, even if the Halo series are better in some aspects. Anyone who insults either is just bad in that game. Grow up.


Posted by: OrderedComa
I really don't see anything unique about that scene. The Autumn is not much better than the standard ship-of-the-line for the UNSC. And I doubt the Covenant were only firing on it at the end of the first level, there is at least one point in the level where the ship is heavily rocked, and the boarding craft could not feasibly do that much buffeting. It is far more likely to have been some form of plasma armament, which would mean the Autumn was getting shot at most of that level.

I highly doubt that TFoR portrayed the Covenant exactly how Bungie wanted them to be, the whole 3:1, that may have been there, but I very very highly doubt that a single Covenant ship could destroy a UNSC one in a single round of plasma torpedoes. That is nonsensical, it should not be that powerful, the Covenant could have vaporized entire UNSC ships without any effort and probably no casualties if the plot did not say "the heroes have to live and their faction has to put up at least a little fight before being obliterated".

I agree, the games nerf everybody for gameplay purposes and that each side is better portrayed in the novels, however, I still do not think the portrayal of the Covenant is at all accurate in the books, no matter how brave, ingenious, strategic, or innovative the UNSC is, they should not have had any victories at all the way things are portrayed.


Fine, then I will explain it again...The scene was special because The Pillar of Autumn IS in fact, a lot better than most UNSC ships.

First off, let's look at the Halcyon cruisers in general. Cruisers are one of the most powerful ship types available to the UNSC, and the Halcyon, although old, was in fact quite effective until the first encounter with the Covenant, where it was realized that their armaments were inadequate, and they were too slow. Thus they were replaced by Marathon cruisers. However, the Halcyon cruisers still have one advantage; they are incredibly tough, being able to survive with 90% hull damage.

The PoA is special because it retained the advantage of the Halcyon class but none of the previous weakness. It was upgraded with a special MAC that is enough to punch out a Covenant ship, with or without the help of the 7800 Archer Missiles it was also fitted with. Its armour was further upgraded for the mission, and its slipspace and FTL drive were also replaced with the most advanced versions available to the UNSC. In fact, the Pillar of Autumn-post refits-was one of the most expensive ships in the UNSC navy.

As well, the crew on the PoA during the battle of Reach and the Battle of Installation 4 is also special. It was captained by Keyes and his crew from the Iroquois, which proved themselves during the Battle of Sigma Octanis IV, and they were aided by Cortana, THE most advanced Smart AI developed by humanity.

So the Pillar of Autumn was definitely special to start with, but the circumstances under which it destroyed those ships was even more rare. A minor prophet that was in command of the fleet at Installation 4 ordered the Covenant ships NOT to fire on the POA for fear of damaging the Halo. Again, I do not recall why they eventually fire upon the PoA later on, but it can be guessed that they simply do not want it to get on the Sacred Rings. I'm fairly sure it was explained in The Flood.

The only confirmed time that the PoA was shot by plasma bombardment was during the cutscene you mentioned, all those rocking and explosions during the missions are results of the boarding parties' actions and resultant damage to the PoA itself.

If you doubt that TFoR had descriptions that Bungie did not want, I suggest you read this

And no, one plasma torpedo does not usually destroy an UNSC ship. That WOULD be overpowered, but the fact is, even the novels demonstrated the need for more than one hit in order for the UNSC ships to go down, obviously this varies according to the size of the ship and where it was hit. Then again, this is offset by the fact that most Covenant ships have more than one plasma launcher, especially the larger ones, whereas UNSC ships usually have one single MAC gun, or 2 in the case of the larger vessels.

Well obviously you're wrong about the Covenant being truly invincible as described by the novel, because the UNSC did win, albeit not head to head. If you don't get that, I don't know what else to say, because the Covenant being portrayed accurately would mean accurate TO the universe described in the novel, not to the real world that you and I live in, and if the novel also say that the humans can win, then that's how it is.

Everything I posted in regards to the events are taken either from TFoR, Halo: CE, or Halo: The Flood, so no, I'm not making facts up.




  • 01.23.2011 6:52 PM PDT

Oh hey there

Posted by: petarded2
It's a metaphor for the 07s' lack of identity. too old to be newfa­g, yet too new to be oldfa­g, we wander b.net in search of a home, forever trying to be something we are not.

On the contrary OP I think the games make them underpowered.

  • 01.23.2011 7:25 PM PDT

RIP - The Rev: February 9, 1981 – December 28, 2009
RIP - Mitch Lucker: October 20, 1984 - November 1, 2012
RIP - Dimebag Darrell: August 20, 1966 – December 8, 2004
RIP - Ronny James Dio: July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010

Posted by: OrderedComa
Regardless, I still think that the Covenant are portrayed as too powerful, there is no way the UNSC could have won, they would have been curb-stomped before the war even started the way the books show it.


Great minds like Cole, Keyes, Witcomb and such are reasons why they did in space/books.

  • 01.23.2011 7:41 PM PDT


Posted by: Beowolfe

Posted by: OrderedComa
I really don't see anything unique about that scene. The Autumn is not much better than the standard ship-of-the-line for the UNSC. And I doubt the Covenant were only firing on it at the end of the first level, there is at least one point in the level where the ship is heavily rocked, and the boarding craft could not feasibly do that much buffeting. It is far more likely to have been some form of plasma armament, which would mean the Autumn was getting shot at most of that level.

I highly doubt that TFoR portrayed the Covenant exactly how Bungie wanted them to be, the whole 3:1, that may have been there, but I very very highly doubt that a single Covenant ship could destroy a UNSC one in a single round of plasma torpedoes. That is nonsensical, it should not be that powerful, the Covenant could have vaporized entire UNSC ships without any effort and probably no casualties if the plot did not say "the heroes have to live and their faction has to put up at least a little fight before being obliterated".

I agree, the games nerf everybody for gameplay purposes and that each side is better portrayed in the novels, however, I still do not think the portrayal of the Covenant is at all accurate in the books, no matter how brave, ingenious, strategic, or innovative the UNSC is, they should not have had any victories at all the way things are portrayed.


Fine, then I will explain it again...The scene was special because The Pillar of Autumn IS in fact, a lot better than most UNSC ships.

First off, let's look at the Halcyon cruisers in general. Cruisers are one of the most powerful ship types available to the UNSC, and the Halcyon, although old, was in fact quite effective until the first encounter with the Covenant, where it was realized that their armaments were inadequate, and they were too slow. Thus they were replaced by Marathon cruisers. However, the Halcyon cruisers still have one advantage; they are incredibly tough, being able to survive with 90% hull damage.

The PoA is special because it retained the advantage of the Halcyon class but none of the previous weakness. It was upgraded with a special MAC that is enough to punch out a Covenant ship, with or without the help of the 7800 Archer Missiles it was also fitted with. Its armour was further upgraded for the mission, and its slipspace and FTL drive were also replaced with the most advanced versions available to the UNSC. In fact, the Pillar of Autumn-post refits-was one of the most expensive ships in the UNSC navy.

As well, the crew on the PoA during the battle of Reach and the Battle of Installation 4 is also special. It was captained by Keyes and his crew from the Iroquois, which proved themselves during the Battle of Sigma Octanis IV, and they were aided by Cortana, THE most advanced Smart AI developed by humanity.

So the Pillar of Autumn was definitely special to start with, but the circumstances under which it destroyed those ships was even more rare. A minor prophet that was in command of the fleet at Installation 4 ordered the Covenant ships NOT to fire on the POA for fear of damaging the Halo. Again, I do not recall why they eventually fire upon the PoA later on, but it can be guessed that they simply do not want it to get on the Sacred Rings. I'm fairly sure it was explained in The Flood.

The only confirmed time that the PoA was shot by plasma bombardment was during the cutscene you mentioned, all those rocking and explosions during the missions are results of the boarding parties' actions and resultant damage to the PoA itself.

If you doubt that TFoR had descriptions that Bungie did not want, I suggest you read this

And no, one plasma torpedo does not usually destroy an UNSC ship. That WOULD be overpowered, but the fact is, even the novels demonstrated the need for more than one hit in order for the UNSC ships to go down, obviously this varies according to the size of the ship and where it was hit. Then again, this is offset by the fact that most Covenant ships have more than one plasma launcher, especially the larger ones, whereas UNSC ships usually have one single MAC gun, or 2 in the case of the larger vessels.

Well obviously you're wrong about the Covenant being truly invincible as described by the novel, because the UNSC did win, albeit not head to head. If you don't get that, I don't know what else to say, because the Covenant being portrayed accurately would mean accurate TO the universe described in the novel, not to the real world that you and I live in, and if the novel also say that the humans can win, then that's how it is.

Everything I posted in regards to the events are taken either from TFoR, Halo: CE, or Halo: The Flood, so no, I'm not making facts up.






You win on the Autumn issue, I will concede that the Autumn is a unique ship, and it's captain is totally unique, the rest of crew, eh, they just seemed like characters for Keyes to interact with, not weak characters mind, but just characters who weren't all that extraordinary.

I think preventing it from landing on Halo was the reason given in the book. I still don't think the boarding craft would be causing that much of a tremor on the ship, but I can't think of anything else it could be other than plasma barrages. Were you placing emphasis on a specific question and answer in the link? Or just the whole link itself?

I guess I wasn't clear enough :/ I didn't mean a single torpedo, I meant the whole salvo, which does boil away the whole ship.

  • 01.23.2011 8:06 PM PDT

Covenant ground troops in the book = legendary difficulty with normal level shields. Also...normal level grunt health.

[Edited on 01.23.2011 8:35 PM PST]

  • 01.23.2011 8:35 PM PDT
  • gamertag: An0nz
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CoD is a good game, even if the Halo series are better in some aspects. Anyone who insults either is just bad in that game. Grow up.


Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: Beowolfe

Posted by: OrderedComa
I really don't see anything unique about that scene. The Autumn is not much better than the standard ship-of-the-line for the UNSC. And I doubt the Covenant were only firing on it at the end of the first level, there is at least one point in the level where the ship is heavily rocked, and the boarding craft could not feasibly do that much buffeting. It is far more likely to have been some form of plasma armament, which would mean the Autumn was getting shot at most of that level.

I highly doubt that TFoR portrayed the Covenant exactly how Bungie wanted them to be, the whole 3:1, that may have been there, but I very very highly doubt that a single Covenant ship could destroy a UNSC one in a single round of plasma torpedoes. That is nonsensical, it should not be that powerful, the Covenant could have vaporized entire UNSC ships without any effort and probably no casualties if the plot did not say "the heroes have to live and their faction has to put up at least a little fight before being obliterated".

I agree, the games nerf everybody for gameplay purposes and that each side is better portrayed in the novels, however, I still do not think the portrayal of the Covenant is at all accurate in the books, no matter how brave, ingenious, strategic, or innovative the UNSC is, they should not have had any victories at all the way things are portrayed.


Fine, then I will explain it again...The scene was special because The Pillar of Autumn IS in fact, a lot better than most UNSC ships.

First off, let's look at the Halcyon cruisers in general. Cruisers are one of the most powerful ship types available to the UNSC, and the Halcyon, although old, was in fact quite effective until the first encounter with the Covenant, where it was realized that their armaments were inadequate, and they were too slow. Thus they were replaced by Marathon cruisers. However, the Halcyon cruisers still have one advantage; they are incredibly tough, being able to survive with 90% hull damage.

The PoA is special because it retained the advantage of the Halcyon class but none of the previous weakness. It was upgraded with a special MAC that is enough to punch out a Covenant ship, with or without the help of the 7800 Archer Missiles it was also fitted with. Its armour was further upgraded for the mission, and its slipspace and FTL drive were also replaced with the most advanced versions available to the UNSC. In fact, the Pillar of Autumn-post refits-was one of the most expensive ships in the UNSC navy.

As well, the crew on the PoA during the battle of Reach and the Battle of Installation 4 is also special. It was captained by Keyes and his crew from the Iroquois, which proved themselves during the Battle of Sigma Octanis IV, and they were aided by Cortana, THE most advanced Smart AI developed by humanity.

So the Pillar of Autumn was definitely special to start with, but the circumstances under which it destroyed those ships was even more rare. A minor prophet that was in command of the fleet at Installation 4 ordered the Covenant ships NOT to fire on the POA for fear of damaging the Halo. Again, I do not recall why they eventually fire upon the PoA later on, but it can be guessed that they simply do not want it to get on the Sacred Rings. I'm fairly sure it was explained in The Flood.

The only confirmed time that the PoA was shot by plasma bombardment was during the cutscene you mentioned, all those rocking and explosions during the missions are results of the boarding parties' actions and resultant damage to the PoA itself.

If you doubt that TFoR had descriptions that Bungie did not want, I suggest you read this

And no, one plasma torpedo does not usually destroy an UNSC ship. That WOULD be overpowered, but the fact is, even the novels demonstrated the need for more than one hit in order for the UNSC ships to go down, obviously this varies according to the size of the ship and where it was hit. Then again, this is offset by the fact that most Covenant ships have more than one plasma launcher, especially the larger ones, whereas UNSC ships usually have one single MAC gun, or 2 in the case of the larger vessels.

Well obviously you're wrong about the Covenant being truly invincible as described by the novel, because the UNSC did win, albeit not head to head. If you don't get that, I don't know what else to say, because the Covenant being portrayed accurately would mean accurate TO the universe described in the novel, not to the real world that you and I live in, and if the novel also say that the humans can win, then that's how it is.

Everything I posted in regards to the events are taken either from TFoR, Halo: CE, or Halo: The Flood, so no, I'm not making facts up.






You win on the Autumn issue, I will concede that the Autumn is a unique ship, and it's captain is totally unique, the rest of crew, eh, they just seemed like characters for Keyes to interact with, not weak characters mind, but just characters who weren't all that extraordinary.

I think preventing it from landing on Halo was the reason given in the book. I still don't think the boarding craft would be causing that much of a tremor on the ship, but I can't think of anything else it could be other than plasma barrages. Were you placing emphasis on a specific question and answer in the link? Or just the whole link itself?

I guess I wasn't clear enough :/ I didn't mean a single torpedo, I meant the whole salvo, which does boil away the whole ship.

Thank you! That took way too long to explain fully. The tremors can be caused by many things; boarding crafts that impacted later in the mission, internal explosions within the ship, or even the general clamor and activities going on within the PoA. Many events were occurring very close to MC, so it makes sense that they seem larger than they actually were.

The purpose of the link I included was to show you that Nylund worked WITH Bungie's materials within their set perimeters, and the novel therefore is a representation of how they wanted their story to turn out.

Well to be honest, the whole salvo SHOULD destroy an UNSC ship. In fact, 3 or 4 direct hits would be more than enough. Think about it. The plasma bolts are akin to incredibly large missiles that boil armour away even after the initial explosive effects, and being that UNSC ships do not have energy shields, they cannot possibly survive more than a few hits from the plasma torpedoes, especially if they hits the reactors.

The biggest technological advantage the Covenant hold over the UNSC is their usage of shielding, which spares them from the same fate that the UNSC ships face at their hands. Their shielding is the one thing keeping the MAC rounds from taking them out in a single strike, and that's why their ships are superior; they can destroy their enemies before their enemies can cause fatal damage to them.

The Covenant simply have higher levels of technologies, but they are inferior to humans in terms of using their technology to the fullest, and that's why humans still win battles occasionally.

  • 01.23.2011 8:51 PM PDT

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