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This topic has moved here: Subject: Spartan discrepancy on Reach.
  • Subject: Spartan discrepancy on Reach.
Subject: Spartan discrepancy on Reach.

Signatures are for squares.

I'm sure all of you remember how there was magically five spartans who appeared in the pelican during First Strike?

Fall of Reach stated there was "two dozen Spartans other spartans" Three were too far away to be recalled. Thus, 21 Spartans should've been part of Red Teams operation, considering Chief took Linda and James with him on his op in space.

However, in the original issue of First Strike, it states there are 27 Spartans in Red Team. It was later stated these numbers were now fact, and that the addition of five spartans would be used later as a hook for another story. Well, if we look at these numbers, The teams on Reach would be split up as shown:

Red Team: 27 Spartans
KIA on Impact: 4

So now we're down to 23 Spartans.

Alpha Team: 3 Spartans
Gamma Team: 3 Spartans
Delta Team: 6 Spartans

It was stated that "The rest of the Spartans were put into Beta team"

This means there was 11 Spartans part of Beta Company. These numbers were generally accepted.

In Halo: Reach, were here about Beta Teams involvement on Reach through the radio conversations on radios scattered around multiplayer and firefight maps. One of the logs states:


Buckman: "Holy <static>! You're ain't gonna believe this! Beta Red just punched right up into the guts of that Covie column! Ever see a Spartan go hand to hand with a Wraith? Unbelievable!"
Chapman: "What are [b]eleven Spartans[b] gonna do against thirty thousand Covenant? They're dead men."


While Beta was tasked with defending the generators in the novels, it appears as if their duty was changed in the game. The numbers are consistent with First Strikes original numbers.


The issues come in with the Reissue of First Strike. Having just finished reading the entire reissue(and being pleased with the ACTUAL changes made to the story[it's no longer said to be the first time fighting brutes, for example]) I noticed that the number of Spartans in Red Team was cut back to 22 Spartans. (Which were the numbers Fall of Reach gave us I think)

This change mucks up the Spartan numbers once again, as now, the distribution of teams on Reach would be:

KIA: 4
Alpha: 3
Gamma: 3
Delta: 6
Beta: 6

Thus creating issues with Halo: Reach. However, if we're going to assume Reach is canon(which I personally don't.) Then the most likely option is that the Pelican drop from space never happened, so those 4 Spartans who were KIA were never killed. Or, the teams were changed. Either way, the number of spartans in Beta team now HAS to be 11 based on the game, and that means that Red Teams operations on Reach are different than they were in First Strike.

But wait? The Pelican drop DID happen. There's an interview that occurs between Fred and an ONI operative as soon as Fred gets back to Earth after First Strike ends. The short story is a new addition to the novel, but seems to ignore the events in Halo: Reach entirely.(Despite being released 3 months after the game was out.)

Does 343 consider Halo Reach to not be canon as well? I'm not sure. But I wanted to draw some light to this issue and get some input from some of you.

Thoughts?

  • 01.28.2011 3:50 PM PDT

Vengeance only leads to an ongoing cycle of hatred.

Thoughts? Bungie ruined canon. Period.
/thread.

  • 01.28.2011 4:18 PM PDT
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Were the three spartans that were too far too be called back the three from Halo: Wars?

  • 01.28.2011 4:22 PM PDT

Signatures are for squares.

Posted by: Jon Paul Jones
Were the three spartans that were too far too be called back the three from Halo: Wars?


No it was Gray Team.

  • 01.28.2011 4:43 PM PDT

"What do you hear?"
"Nothing but the rain."
"Then grab your gun and bring in the cat."
"Boom, boom, boom!"

Nope. The three that were too far to be called back were Grey Team. The three Spartans that went missing in Halo Wars were part of Red Team.

@Caboose: 343 is gonna count Reach as canon, much to the dismay of everyone here. The problem is, they won't do anything to fix the errors between the game and the books, they'll just leave them.

And we all know Spartan numbers have been screwed up for a long time lol. Did you honestly think they'd be fixed in the re-issues? XD

Also...would you count the radio conversations in Forge and multiplayer as canon? I'm just really curious.

I think the numbers will forever be screwed up and nothing will be done to fix them, despite how easy it would be.

  • 01.28.2011 4:48 PM PDT

Signatures are for squares.

Posted by: kit_103
Nope. The three that were too far to be called back were Grey Team. The three Spartans that went missing in Halo Wars were part of Red Team.

@Caboose: 343 is gonna count Reach as canon, much to the dismay of everyone here. The problem is, they won't do anything to fix the errors between the game and the books, they'll just leave them.

And we all know Spartan numbers have been screwed up for a long time lol. Did you honestly think they'd be fixed in the re-issues? XD

Also...would you count the radio conversations in Forge and multiplayer as canon? I'm just really curious.

I think the numbers will forever be screwed up and nothing will be done to fix them, despite how easy it would be.


Actually, thanks to Halseys Journal the Spartan numbers were completely perfect. Everything added up. It wasn't until the First Strike reissue when things got mucked up again.

  • 01.28.2011 4:51 PM PDT

"What do you hear?"
"Nothing but the rain."
"Then grab your gun and bring in the cat."
"Boom, boom, boom!"

Posted by: privet caboose
Actually, thanks to Halseys Journal the Spartan numbers were completely perfect. Everything added up. It wasn't until the First Strike reissue when things got mucked up again.


Where she mentions the lie about all the Spartans being gathered correct? Just wanna make sure I didn't miss something.

  • 01.28.2011 5:02 PM PDT

Signatures are for squares.

Posted by: kit_103
Posted by: privet caboose
Actually, thanks to Halseys Journal the Spartan numbers were completely perfect. Everything added up. It wasn't until the First Strike reissue when things got mucked up again.


Where she mentions the lie about all the Spartans being gathered correct? Just wanna make sure I didn't miss something.


No, she said she spent more time and resources on getting more surgeries and fixing the washouts from the II project. (Thus, this explains where the time and funding for the Class II project went.) There were 11 washouts who she managed to save and were sent into duty.

Thus, the extra spartans are explained away.

  • 01.28.2011 5:05 PM PDT

"What do you hear?"
"Nothing but the rain."
"Then grab your gun and bring in the cat."
"Boom, boom, boom!"

Posted by: privet caboose
No, she said she spent more time and resources on getting more surgeries and fixing the washouts from the II project. (Thus, this explains where the time and funding for the Class II project went.) There were 11 washouts who she managed to save and were sent into duty.

Thus, the extra spartans are explained away.


Right, right. Been awhile since I read through the journal completely. Thanks.

Well, it was only a matter of time until the numbers were screwed up again. I think it'll take awhile for everything to straighten itself out properly.

  • 01.28.2011 5:12 PM PDT

Just remember that Bungie said that they aren't following book canon. Only game.

  • 01.28.2011 5:19 PM PDT

I'm not pro- or anti-Halo Reach, but I gotta say this:

You cannot pick and choose which is canon and which is not. If you're going to say that the Fall of Reach is canon, then you are going to have to accept everything it states is canon.

Which means that Elites were never encountered until then, causing multiple discrepancies in the other books and Halo Wars. Same goes with other small things.

This comment is directed not only to this thread, but all threads like it.

  • 01.28.2011 5:36 PM PDT

Signatures are for squares.

Posted by: Plasma3150
I'm not pro- or anti-Halo Reach, but I gotta say this:

You cannot pick and choose which is canon and which is not. If you're going to say that the Fall of Reach is canon, then you are going to have to accept everything it states is canon.

Which means that Elites were never encountered until then, causing multiple discrepancies in the other books and Halo Wars. Same goes with other small things.

This comment is directed not only to this thread, but all threads like it.


This was retconned in the books LONG ago. In 2006 this was retconned in Ghosts of Oynx. Every piece of canon after this shows they were encountered first on Harvest.

  • 01.28.2011 6:40 PM PDT


Posted by: privet caboose
Posted by: Plasma3150
I'm not pro- or anti-Halo Reach, but I gotta say this:

You cannot pick and choose which is canon and which is not. If you're going to say that the Fall of Reach is canon, then you are going to have to accept everything it states is canon.

Which means that Elites were never encountered until then, causing multiple discrepancies in the other books and Halo Wars. Same goes with other small things.

This comment is directed not only to this thread, but all threads like it.


This was retconned in the books LONG ago. In 2006 this was retconned in Ghosts of Oynx. Every piece of canon after this shows they were encountered first on Harvest.
So, what makes the book retconning preferable to the game retconning? When it comes to discrepancies and retconning, you need to go after all of them, or none; otherwise it would just be personal preferences, and the argument cannot be taken seriously.


[Edited on 01.28.2011 7:13 PM PST]

  • 01.28.2011 6:49 PM PDT

Signatures are for squares.

Posted by: Plasma3150

Posted by: privet caboose
Posted by: Plasma3150
I'm not pro- or anti-Halo Reach, but I gotta say this:

You cannot pick and choose which is canon and which is not. If you're going to say that the Fall of Reach is canon, then you are going to have to accept everything it states is canon.

Which means that Elites were never encountered until then, causing multiple discrepancies in the other books and Halo Wars. Same goes with other small things.

This comment is directed not only to this thread, but all threads like it.


This was retconned in the books LONG ago. In 2006 this was retconned in Ghosts of Oynx. Every piece of canon after this shows they were encountered first on Harvest.
So, what makes the book retconning preferable to the game retconning? When it comes to discrepancies and retconning, you need to go after all of them, or none; otherwise it would just be personal preferences, and the argument cannot be taken seriously.


The difference is, a retcon such as that isn't exactly a huge retcon. It was an error on Nylunds part to make encountering Elites be in 2552. He had no idea that Halo was going to explode this way, and Fall of Reach was the -FIRST- source of Halo material there was. It's only natural it'd have errors. Every piece of material after First Strike shows Elites in combat from 2525 onward.

Reach has no excuse for it's canon breaches.

  • 01.28.2011 8:21 PM PDT


Posted by: shotgunrainftw
Just remember that Bungie said that they aren't following book canon. Only game.


Why cares about that? Do you seriously think we'd like to know books we loved and thought brought a new dimension to a game universe, to be useless YEARS after we took them as granted? It's VERY low. Either Bungie are stupid, either they still -blam!- it up.

  • 01.28.2011 8:52 PM PDT

PEANUT-BUTTER SLAP!

Posted by: SEAL Sniper 9
Thoughts? Bungie ruined canon. Period.
/thread.
Spartan numbers have been wonky for years. Also,this:Posted by: privet caboose
The issues come in with the Reissue of First Strike.


I would like it if Bungie worked with 343 during the novel rewrites to produce a more consistent story. I'd also like a Bugatti Veyron filled with gold, but that probably won't happen either.

  • 01.28.2011 9:08 PM PDT

http://www.halo-forum.com

The radio transmissions that refer to Red Team are from Multiplayer maps and are of questionaly canonicity at best. If they are indeed to be considered canon then they would most certainly be on a lower tier than a novel's canon. I would suggest using the novel's numbers and viewing the radio chatter as an easter egg "tip o' the hat" to the fans of the books, not necessarily concrete facts.

  • 02.01.2011 4:52 PM PDT