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Subject: Halo: Why it's fun, but incompetently made (28 page review)

Posted By:Beowolfe
Except you simply choose to ignore what logic would say about the changes made to the timeline. As I've said many times, the canon can be distorted to fit, but that doesn't change the fact that things in the new story don't make sense. You don't seem to understand what the butterfly effect does in terms of this, so I'll point it out. The original Fall of Reach lasted one single day. In the game, the major conflicts lasted over 2 weeks, 4, if you count the scouting parties. As described in the novel, within hours, three Spartans blew up a Covenant cruiser and destroyed over 10000 covenant forces in the area.

Logic then dictates that they would have done so as soon as covenant presence is discovered. Instead, the only people that seems to be fighting were Noble Team, where the hell where the Spartan II during the first 2 weeks? Did ONI decide to keep their best and most effective anti-Covenant asset in the dark just so the world doesn't panic? That doesn't make sense, the Spartans were made for things like these.


I've said it before, and it appears I need to say it again, this is Noble Team's story, we don't need to hear what every single military company is doing, just because one does not see or hear about anything does not mean it is not going on. I've said this before too, IF the Covenant invasion of Reach was kept quiet at all, it would have only been kept out of the media to keep the civilian population from panicking.Also, the "just because we don't see it doesn't mean it isn't going on" holds true here as well, the civilian populations may have been informed and evacuation started, the level Exodus would seem to indicate that evacuation efforts have been going on for a while now. And if there are other cities that are close to the size of New Alexandria, that's going to take some effort, it's not all going to be instantaneous.
Back to your issue with the Spartans, just because we do not see anything relating to them in the campaign does not mean they are not out there fighting, this is Noble Team's story and concerns only the events have to do directly with them. And obviously they had no important interactions between Noble and other Spartans during the campaigns on Reach.

1st flaw, it was never mentioned in any other source, and being that it is in a trailer, it has nearly the lowest canon rating, if you can even call advertising "canon".
2nd flaw, if Kelly, Fred, Will, Kurt, or even Linda have all demonstrated that they are in fact more capable than John in combat situations, since that is their specialty, then how is it possible that there is only one other person (aside from six)who's rated as Hyper-Lethal? Hyper lethal to what? Grunts?


Not being mentioned anywhere else is hardly a flaw, that is incredibly weak reasoning. And so what if it was in a trailer? Until something in material higher on the canon scale contradicts it, it is as much canon as Chief being a Caucasian male with brown hair.
Just look at the feats Chief has pulled off, that is what defines Hyper-Lethal, and Six obviously has a similar god-like skill set, this sets both of them apart from all the other Spartans. The Hyper-Lethal defines how much a danger they are in combat, yes all Spartans, by definition are Hyper-Lethal to a degree, but there's obviously more to the term that has not been completely defined yet.

He is not. I suggest you read the novel again, and in fact it is strongly implied in the novels that he knows he is not, he himself called Linda the strongest (or toughest, I'm not sure) Spartan II, because she is the most independent Spartan II ever created. And yeah, I hold the novels to a high regard because the novels can actually tell a good story, and that's all I care about, games are made to create an experience, and Halo reach failed to do so for the ultimate potential they had with the Fall of Reach. Sure, I'll have some fun with the MP from time to time, but that's neither here nor there.

It is not implied at all in the novels, there has never been a question about Chief being the best. His thoughts on Linda were referring to the emotions, she probably is the strongest emotionally, but Chief was not referring to combat prowess or feats of strength.

The games tell a story too, but in a different method than a book ever does, a book and a game completely different media sources, you cannot really compare the two because they are radically different. The account of the Battle of Reach has ever so much more potential than TFoR's very short account ever did. TFoR's account takes up the space of not even a fourth of the book and the actual battle takes place over about two hours, give or take, that does not have much potential for more stories about Reach, the game has created a much longer space of events that can lead to many more stories about Reach's Fall. And a game can only show so much, animating things and making sure they look perfect takes a lot of time, and there's also the matter of cost, a video game can't show everything.

The first part, I'll give you some credit, but the 2nd is hilarious. True, Linda will not be as effective in CQC when compared to Kelly or Fred, but MC has proven time and again that he's simply incredibly lucky. (again, plot device) Spartan IIs are trained the same in that they're made to be top soldiers, and they are ALL equally effective, simply in different ways. And here, logic speaks again. If sniping is her top skill set, why would she get into a CQC fight? If you think every Spartan II is like Jorge as he's portrayed in game, then you have a hell of a misconception.

Again, define hyper-lethal with facts to support it, so I can actually have something to consider.


I agree, luck does indeed play a certain degree in Chief's effectiveness, it's a combination of his luck and his skills that make him the best. I don't get where you're coming from at all, Jorge is the same as all the other SIIs, he's exactly the same as the others are depicted.

As for getting some sort of definition for Hyper-Lethal, just look at what Chief does in every battle he's takes part in in the games, and that should give you an idea, or two, or three, as to it's definition.

Now, onto Noble Team...Are you serious? Jorge aside, the Spartan IIIs are idiots. Carter is supposed to be the leader, but what did he really do in terms of "leading"? Kat was actually the one who came up with Operation Uppercut, Carter was simply the highest ranked member on the team, and receive orders from their superiors.

Kat is retarded in so many ways, some already mentioned in other threads, but the most of all is the way she died. Sure, it can happen, but that is a horrible death, and honestly, when a Spartan is running, they should be so fast that they CANNOT be hit easily, much less a straight up headshot. It's not like the Covenant was using a fully automatic needler cannon; it was one single shot from the zealot. Oh, and the entire Noble team does not notice this huge drop ship on top of them, nice.

I have spoken many times about Emile, but I'll rephrase it this time. Noble team members were pulled before their respective suicide missions because they were gauged to be somewhat equal to the Spartan IIs; However, Emile's death just showed extreme character flaw and how did that get past the screening to join the supposed most elite Spartan III team?

I won't comment on Jun and six because there isn't much to go on, and I'd just be biased on how Bungie fked up their portrayal. Either way, Noble team is a joke.


It's not the commander's job to think of everything, because that is not humanly possible, that is why every sort of leader surrounds himself with a good staff. Carter not coming up with Operation Uppercut in no way diminishes his leadership. Yes Carter receives orders from Command, but that is because he has authorities over him, he is the in-field commander though, he issues the orders and strategies for going about Command's orders unless they are specifically issued to him. The only instance of a flaw on Carter's part was not going after the Zealot who barreled past Emile.

Ok, on the subject of Kat you seem to have fallen into the "game play AI=character canon" error. Kat is not retarded at all, except for the AI in game play, but that applies to all friendlies, and I will say Bungie has never been that great at making a competent friendly AI system. There is nothing wrong with Kat's character portrayal at all. In regards to her death, you have to take angle into consideration. The Covie Sniper was above them, it is much easier to get a hit on your target if you are in that situation. And any sniper worth his salt knows how to compensate in order to hit a moving target, honestly, arguing over this is just stupid, you're looking far to hard for anything that justifies your view that Reach -blam!- up the canon.

One mistake does not make you an utter failure and undeserving of your position. Emile was not as alert as he should have been, that does not mean he has a problem with alertness, he was focused on the skies by the Autumn and keeping back the Phantoms, the one that got the drop on the humans came pretty much out of nowhere and got the drop on everyone.

  • 02.06.2011 11:03 AM PDT
  • gamertag: An0nz
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CoD is a good game, even if the Halo series are better in some aspects. Anyone who insults either is just bad in that game. Grow up.


Posted by: OrderedComa
I've said it before, and it appears I need to say it again, this is Noble Team's story, we don't need to hear what every single military company is doing, just because one does not see or hear about anything does not mean it is not going on. I've said this before too, IF the Covenant invasion of Reach was kept quiet at all, it would have only been kept out of the media to keep the civilian population from panicking.Also, the "just because we don't see it doesn't mean it isn't going on" holds true here as well, the civilian populations may have been informed and evacuation started, the level Exodus would seem to indicate that evacuation efforts have been going on for a while now. And if there are other cities that are close to the size of New Alexandria, that's going to take some effort, it's not all going to be instantaneous.
Back to your issue with the Spartans, just because we do not see anything relating to them in the campaign does not mean they are not out there fighting, this is Noble Team's story and concerns only the events have to do directly with them. And obviously they had no important interactions between Noble and other Spartans during the campaigns on Reach.


And I've said this many times, and I too, will say it again. This is the butterfly effect, and if the Spartan IIs were actually fighting, then the story of Reach would NEVER have turned out like they did in game. They wouldn't have allowed the Covenant ships to stay intact for more than a week. It may be Noble Team's story, but Bungie portrayed it in such a way that it appears to be no other competent military assets on Reach. Things that are usually regarded as heavy support, such as tanks, pelicans, falcons, longsword or even air strikes, rarely appeared and when they do appear they don't actually "support" all that much. Noble Team was the only one doing work.

And if Reach was supposed to follow the established canon, then there damn well would have been nukes on Reach. Maybe not the ship-to-ship SHIVAs, but there would have been HAVOKs. As well, the Covenant ships would never have gotten through so easily. If it had been something akin to the Halo 2 where they simply broke through the defenses, I can believe, but this just makes the UNSC military look like incompetent fools.

Not being mentioned anywhere else is hardly a flaw, that is incredibly weak reasoning. And so what if it was in a trailer? Until something in material higher on the canon scale contradicts it, it is as much canon as Chief being a Caucasian male with brown hair.
Just look at the feats Chief has pulled off, that is what defines Hyper-Lethal, and Six obviously has a similar god-like skill set, this sets both of them apart from all the other Spartans. The Hyper-Lethal defines how much a danger they are in combat, yes all Spartans, by definition are Hyper-Lethal to a degree, but there's obviously more to the term that has not been completely defined yet.


1st flaw stands valid. This combat rating is probably the weakest possible tidbit of lore. It's only ever mentioned in one single trailer for advertisement, and that trailer conflicts with Halsey's journal. So that already throws the source out of the window. As for John being brown hair and Caucasian...it's been known since TFoR, and reinforced many times through other minor sources, like the recent Christmas picture.

And again you look at plot devices as skill...What I'm looking at is only the skills underneath the tempering of the plot. At this moment I'm keeping in mind of the incredibly impressive performance during John's test run with the Mark V. But that doesn't mean that other Spartans could not have done the same. In fact, Kelly can definitely beat John,and Linda too if she's in her element. Fred and John came from the same mold, so I won't bother. Therefore, if John can be beat, then there cannot possibly be only 2 people with that rating.Thus flaw number 2.

It is not implied at all in the novels, there has never been a question about Chief being the best. His thoughts on Linda were referring to the emotions, she probably is the strongest emotionally, but Chief was not referring to combat prowess or feats of strength.

The games tell a story too, but in a different method than a book ever does, a book and a game completely different media sources, you cannot really compare the two because they are radically different. The account of the Battle of Reach has ever so much more potential than TFoR's very short account ever did. TFoR's account takes up the space of not even a fourth of the book and the actual battle takes place over about two hours, give or take, that does not have much potential for more stories about Reach, the game has created a much longer space of events that can lead to many more stories about Reach's Fall. And a game can only show so much, animating things and making sure they look perfect takes a lot of time, and there's also the matter of cost, a video game can't show everything.

All I can for the first part, is go read the novel again; MC was referring to the fact that Linda does not need teammates to function, and thus she is the strongest. It's a matter of efficiency as a single person, not emotional endurance.

Novel stories and game stories are different. But game stories are good if they can replicate, as much as possible, of the same feelings and wonder that a novel elicits in the reader. Being that games must be more visual, it is obviously more difficult in certain aspects, but Bungie definitely had the resources to make the campaign much better than it was, if not not up to the same comparable level as a novel would. It's pretty clear they just spent much more time on MP, some aspects of which are at best innovative attempts and at worst unnecessary gimmicks.

In terms of the duration, you have your own bias, so I won't go deep into that. However, I will say that the short duration is for the emotional impact, and unbeknownst to most, that short duration actually what made the story make more sense. And plus, the space conflict lasted for about 2 hours, but the ground war actually lasted more than that, that, and if Bungie were good enough that they don't waste a second of the battle when making the campaign, could have made a damn good story. Bungie tried to extend the story, but just like you, they fail to recognize what the butterfly effect would do. When you extend the duration of something, you allow for the possibilities for different results, and those different results will cascade out, and if you do not take that into account, your story will not make sense. If you want an analogy, think of the kill times in MP. This is Halo: Reach.

I agree, luck does indeed play a certain degree in Chief's effectiveness, it's a combination of his luck and his skills that make him the best. Jorge is the same as all the other SIIs, he's exactly the same as the others are depicted.
.


John is not the best, maybe one of the top Spartan IIs, but definitely not the best. As for Jorge, go play the game again and tell me he resembles anything like all other Spartan IIs as described in the novels. He's just the stereotypical guy with big gun. There is no definition for hyper lethal.

Carter, Kat, Emile


No, it's not the Commander's job to think of everything. It's their job to try and do so, but Carter doesn't even have that. For the most part Carter just said "Six go do my job for me". That's not being a leader. His main and just about the only contribution is his death, but even that is unnecessary if you think about it.

I never confuse gameplay and canon...when I'm talking about Kat, I'm strictly referring to the story as depicted in the cut-scenes. Her overall attitude is already that of an obnoxious child, she never actually does anything in the actual execution of missions, and her lines-while an attempt by Bungie to make Noble Team human, just makes them look like idiots. As for her death...sure, any sniper worth their salt knows to adjust for moving targets, but not any sniper can get a headshot from the top (where the target is small as hell) and "supposed" to be moving at over 25km/hour. I'm saying supposed because why the hell would they run slowly if the place is getting glassed, and most Spartans can run up to 55km/h. As well, why did they not run through areas with more cover, and if you are not running under cover, why would you just run so slowly that you'd get headshotted? Again, the entire Noble team not spotting the dropship is retarded for a squad of super-soldiers that are supposedly the elite. The "it's on top of them excuse is horrible" They should have detected SOMETHING.

One single mistake doesn't make you undeserving of your position. But this isn't a single mistake. This is character flaw, which means in everything he does this character flaw would have a possibility of showing through, for the most elite team of Spartan IIIs where there can be no room for mistakes, this cannot be allowed. Noble team is chosen prior to their suicide missions, so there isn't much to go on in terms of experience, meaning that whoever made the team would need to look at basic characteristics like performance in training and CHARACTER, which means Emile shouldn't have made it through. I won't repeat what I've said a million times about the illogical circumstances around Emile's death, especially since I've already countered everything you said about it many times times before.

I find it funny that you still believe that I'm trying to justify the breaking of the canon when I've stated several times that I don't believe it is. I only care about the quality of the story, and halo: reach failed because it doesn't make sense.

[Edited on 02.06.2011 1:46 PM PST]

  • 02.06.2011 1:46 PM PDT

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Although I didn't agree with everything, Aratech summed up the problem with Bungie's campaign perfectly, hitting the nail on the head many times.

  • 02.06.2011 2:01 PM PDT

Posted By:Beowolfe
And I've said this many times, and I too, will say it again. This is the butterfly effect, and if the Spartan IIs were actually fighting, then the story of Reach would NEVER have turned out like they did in game. They wouldn't have allowed the Covenant ships to stay intact for more than a week. It may be Noble Team's story, but Bungie portrayed it in such a way that it appears to be no other competent military assets on Reach. Things that are usually regarded as heavy support, such as tanks, pelicans, falcons, longsword or even air strikes, rarely appeared and when they do appear they don't actually "support" all that much. Noble Team was the only one doing work.

And if Reach was supposed to follow the established canon, then there damn well would have been nukes on Reach. Maybe not the ship-to-ship SHIVAs, but there would have been HAVOKs. As well, the Covenant ships would never have gotten through so easily. If it had been something akin to the Halo 2 where they simply broke through the defenses, I can believe, but this just makes the UNSC military look like incompetent fools.


The extending of the battle changes next to nothing, Red Team can still be doing what they're supposed to be doing, the Circumference Op can still happen, all the events of TFoR are unchanged except minor adjustments in timing. There is no butterfly affect existing with these changes.
Ok, there were no real opportunities to use an air strike, the only instance I can think of where they would have been used would have been Tip of Spear, and the Covenant had AA Guns set up where they were entrenched and Noble did not really go near any Covenant strong points other than the AA Guns and the Spire, and either one of those an airstrike would not have worked. And also, there was no need for tanks where Noble was operating other than on the second to last mission.

As for the nukes, I got nothing for ya there other than the Slipspace "Bomb" is a cool idea that Bungie wanted to use, much better than a nuke or heavy explosive material which has been done a thousand times and is almost cliche. Now that doesn't excuse putting nukes out of system or whatever it was Kat said, but I don't really have an answer for you, and I don't care, it doesn't affect the story at all, imo anyway. The only reason that I can think of, but is weak as -blam!- and even I wouldn't really use, is that whatever they did have would not have been enough power to take out the Super Carrier, but like I said, it is weak and I would never use it, especially since it's false anyway.

Well see, we don't know what exactly the Covenant are capable of replicating from Forerunner tech, or what they have up their technological sleeves, I would not rule stealth tech out, but that's just me, like I said, we don't know enough about the Covies tech to really know what they can do.

1st flaw stands valid. This combat rating is probably the weakest possible tidbit of lore. It's only ever mentioned in one single trailer for advertisement, and that trailer conflicts with Halsey's journal. So that already throws the source out of the window. As for John being brown hair and Caucasian...it's been known since TFoR, and reinforced many times through other minor sources, like the recent Christmas picture.

And again you look at plot devices as skill...What I'm looking at is only the skills underneath the tempering of the plot. At this moment I'm keeping in mind of the incredibly impressive performance during John's test run with the Mark V. But that doesn't mean that other Spartans could not have done the same. In fact, Kelly can definitely beat John,and Linda too if she's in her element. Fred and John came from the same mold, so I won't bother. Therefore, if John can be beat, then there cannot possibly be only 2 people with that rating.Thus flaw number 2.


How does "Hyper-Lethal Vector" conflict with Halsey's Journal? I haven't gotten the chance to get my hands on a copy of that yet, so please enlighten me. I'm willing to at least hear you out since you seem to know more than me on the subject of the Journal.

I see no difference between the two, there is no difference between "plot device" and so called "underlying skill". They are exactly the same, John has any sort of skill because the plot mandates it, there is no difference between "plot device" and "character skill" they inextricably linked. The test of the Mark V is a massive indication of Chief being the best there is, no other Spartan could have succeeded as well he did, Kelly is the only one who could have come close due to her speed.
In a test of speed, sure, Kelly would win hands down, or a contest of sniping, yeah sure, Linda wins, but I don't get where you think that any other Spartan could beat Chief in just overall skill. John and Noble Six ARE the only ones who have the Hyper-Lethal rating, obviously if it was something any old Spartan could get, then Halsey would not have made such a big deal out of it in the trailer.

All I can for the first part, is go read the novel again; MC was referring to the fact that Linda does not need teammates to function, and thus she is the strongest. It's a matter of efficiency as a single person, not emotional endurance.

Novel stories and game stories are different. But game stories are good if they can replicate, as much as possible, of the same feelings and wonder that a novel elicits in the reader. Being that games must be more visual, it is obviously more difficult in certain aspects, but Bungie definitely had the resources to make the campaign much better than it was, if not not up to the same comparable level as a novel would. It's pretty clear they just spent much more time on MP, some aspects of which are at best innovative attempts and at worst unnecessary gimmicks.

In terms of the duration, you have your own bias, so I won't go deep into that. However, I will say that the short duration is for the emotional impact, and unbeknownst to most, that short duration actually what made the story make more sense. And plus, the space conflict lasted for about 2 hours, but the ground war actually lasted more than that, that, and if Bungie were good enough that they don't waste a second of the battle when making the campaign, could have made a damn good story. Bungie tried to extend the story, but just like you, they fail to recognize what the butterfly effect would do. When you extend the duration of something, you allow for the possibilities for different results, and those different results will cascade out, and if you do not take that into account, your story will not make sense. If you want an analogy, think of the kill times in MP. This is Halo: Reach.


You're right, it is not just emotional endurance, but he was not talking about combat effectiveness, he was referring to her overall character, she doesn't need back-up, doesn't rely solely on others, and her emotional strength, this however does not have anything to do with whether or not she has any potential to be the best Spartan.

I dot not believe that games and novels can even be compared, except plot, but only slightly. I won't agree or disagree on whether or not Bungie could have made the campaign much better, I don't work there, so I don't know what would would or would not be possible to improve. They certainly did do a lot of work on building up the multi-player and it shows, Reach, imo, has possibly the best of the multi-players I've played in Halo. However, I do not think there are any "gimmicks" at all, is the game perfect? No, is it an utter piece of glorified turds? No, it has it's strengths and weaknesses, nothing is ever perfect.

I agree, it was for emotional impact (and probably also due to Nylund having pretty much already filled up the book and he didn't have a good space of time to write a more expansive story), and you are free to believe what you like as to what's better or not, I however will continue to think that a longer overall battle is much better.
And as for the so called "butter-fly affect", that has no bearing whatsoever on a writer working on a story as the writer is essentially in the role of God. The butter-fly affect has no bearing on events unless it is a focus of the plot already. The only role it plays in a story is in the form of fan "What ifs?".

As for Jorge, go play the game again and tell me he resembles anything like all other Spartan IIs as described in the novels. He's just the stereotypical guy with big gun. There is no definition for hyper lethal.

No, it's not the Commander's job to think of everything. It's their job to try and do so, but Carter doesn't even have that. For the most part Carter just said "Six go do my job for me". That's not being a leader. His main and just about the only contribution is his death, but even that is unnecessary if you think about it.


I still see absolutely nothing setting Jorge apart from the other SIIs, other than a differing personality, which is a totally natural thing to have.

As for Carter, I think he was portrayed very well, Six was not doing Carter's job for him at all, I don't see anything in the game to create such a conclusion to jump to. Carter is very "by the book" and that's a flaw in his character, that is the whole reason Halsey called him a puppet.

Emile: I read up on Emile on halopedian just to have more information to address your point. It mentioned nothing at all like what you are implying as a character flaw, Kat is the one who has the character flaw of not being aware of the situation in combat, not Emile, his flaw is his over-eagerness for a fight and overall "macho tough-guy" behavior.

Even if you're not trying to justify breakage it feels like you're trying to justify "sucking", at least that is how it feels sometimes.

[Edited on 02.07.2011 9:35 AM PST]

  • 02.07.2011 9:33 AM PDT

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Posted by: Aratech
"
The problem is that you cannot prove me that there's any Spartan-II who's better than Noble Six when it comes to rating and combat effectiveness, such as making entire militia groups disappear by yourself without leaving a trace that Six has done in his record."

Appeal to ignorance fallacy and shifting the burden of proof.

"
If you asked me who would win Master Chief or Noble Six, I would answer Noble Six would win, because he's apparently the best Spartan-III, and carries a title only one other Spartan-II possibly has + he's a lone wolf assassin, unlike Master Chief who heavily relies on his teammates."

Except for Halo: CE, First Strike's entire first act, Halo 2, Halo 3, etc, etc...

Someone clearly played a different Halo franchise than the rest of the world.

"
But, if you asked me who would win Fred or Noble Six, you would scare the hell out of me, and I couldn't tell you. Fred is better than Master Chief in every category (sniping, hand to hand and close quarters combat) and I can only see him or Linda being rated hyper-lethal from the Spartan-IIs)."

You will provide the evidence that Fred is superior to the Chief in every category. You will do so now.

"
But now that you asked that question, if hyper-lethal vector does not mean a lot to you, then I don't know what does, but I for one will not go for the stupid Spartan-II > Spartan-III argument that holds no water in my eyes."

Unfortunately for you, my friend, I'm not the one who has to prove things here. You see, I've got years of evidence to back me up. Since their introduction in GoO, it has been made clear that the III's are inferior to the II's, in exchange for being a fraction of the resource hogs. You, therefore, have to prove that Six is the One True Mark III, who is superior to every Spartan II ever made. So far all you have is a vague "Hyper-Lethal" claim that means absolutely nothing without concrete facts to back it up (Hyper-Lethal compared to what? A Spartan II? Another III? A Grunt? An overweight cat with only two legs?) and your demonstration of a hilarious ignorance of the Halo franchise.

Get cracking, boyo. Chop, chop.


This post reeks of win.

  • 02.07.2011 11:47 AM PDT
  • gamertag: An0nz
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CoD is a good game, even if the Halo series are better in some aspects. Anyone who insults either is just bad in that game. Grow up.

Posted by: OrderedComa
The extending of the battle changes next to nothing, Red Team can still be doing what they're supposed to be doing, the Circumference Op can still happen, all the events of TFoR are unchanged except minor adjustments in timing. There is no butterfly affect existing with these changes.
As for the nukes, I got nothing for ya there other than the Slipspace "Bomb" is a cool idea that Bungie wanted to use.
Well see, we don't know what exactly the Covenant are capable of replicating from Forerunner tech, or what they have up their technological sleeves, I would not rule stealth tech out, but that's just me, like I said, we don't know enough about the Covies tech to really know what they can do.

And clearly you have no idea what the butterfly effect means. For the lack of space I will instead address what you appear to be missing even after all this time, although it appears I may have to create another thread entirely just so you people get this into your mind. Really? You honestly believe that red team and Blue team are going to just sit on their asses until their respective moments in the story come on? The point is not simply whether the known events will happen or not, but rather-because of the extended and pushed-back dates-how the events in Reach does not correspond to how logic say would happen, as I've said before, Halo Reach completely ignores the presence of the Spartan IIs during the first two weeks, and gave rarely any explanations in the latter, despite them being even more effective than Noble Team and probably would have gotten rid of the Covenant presence about 10 times faster, if they were involved.

Airstrike, orbit strikes, artillery, vehicles and air support?how many times did these show up? Next to None. You'd think that, Reach, being THE human's military stronghold, would have more uncommon defenses, equipments and otherwise. AA guns can shoot out planes, but can they shoot out artillery strikes? I doubt it, and if the laser designator IS in game, why are there not other uses of the same principle?
You don't care about the nukes, good for you, but that is one fact that doesn't make sense.

As for the supposed Covenant "stealth" properties?sure, neither of us can say whether or not they did have it, but the fact remains that Reach, being a prequel, means that whatever technology is present in the universe during Halo: Reach, should exist also in the trilogy, and that favours my side.
How does "Hyper-Lethal Vector" conflict with Halsey's Journal?
I see no difference between the two, there is no difference between "plot device" and so called "underlying skill". The test of the Mark V is a massive indication of Chief being the best there is, no other Spartan could have succeeded as well he did
I don't get where you think that any other Spartan could beat Chief in just overall skill. John and Noble Six ARE the only ones who have the Hyper-Lethal rating, obviously if it was something any old Spartan could get, then Halsey would not have made such a big deal out of it in the trailer.

The combat rating itself is unreliable because it is in an advertising trailer, but since you don't believe me, then I had to bring in the diary. Well, the trailer made it clear that Halsey is speaking most likely prior to the events of Reach, since no one has died yet, and she talked about them in detail, as if she personally knew them. However, it is made clear in the journal that Halsey had no idea who Noble Team-save Jorge-was during the time. It is possible that she may have found out near the end, but even at the earliest possible time, by then at least 2 members of Noble team would have died already, making her speech nonsensical. So there are two choices; either the trailer is purely made for advertisement or the diary contradicts it, and diary wins. Either way, the trailer is not sufficient canon, and therefore, the combat rating is null.

As for plot device and underlying skill...you've got to have a handicap to think they're the same. For example, John being able to blow up the Halos is a great feat, but it's purely plot device, John survives glassing on Delta Halo because the plot had Gravemind rescue him. John captures the Ascendant Justice because, for unknown reasons, the ship had an insignificant defense on board. There are plenty more, and these are all great feats, but those don't define what he is. John being able to lead, and the acts that he did such as those during his Mark V test run, are his true skills, these are attributes that are always there in the face of all circumstances, and from what we see of it, he is not the best Spartan. You seem to regard the "overall" as the definition as best, but the truth is, as I've said before, he's simply rounded; a jack of all trades, but master of none. This is not to say he's bad in any way, but rather, he cannot match other Spartan IIs' in their specializations, whereas they can match him in most of everything else except leadership. There is no "best" within the Spartans, only what they're best AT, and in terms of that, many Spartans are actually able to surpass John in actual combat effectiveness, so it is impossible there are only ever 2 hyper-lethal vectors.


Your whole argument here is based solely on the fact that hyper-lethal actually means something, but as I've proven above, it is simply for the sake of advertisement, because most average halo player wouldn't know about the surviving Spartan IIs, so Bungie wouldn't need to mention them.

You're right, it is not just emotional endurance, but he was not talking about combat effectiveness, he was referring to her overall character, she doesn't need back-up, doesn't rely solely on others, and her emotional strength,
I dot not believe that games and novels can even be compared, except plot, but only slightly. They certainly did do a lot of work on building up the multi-player and it shows, Reach, imo, has possibly the best of the multi-players I've played in Halo. However, I do not think there are any "gimmicks" at all, is the game perfect? No, is it an utter piece of glorified turds? No, it has it's strengths and weaknesses, nothing is ever perfect.

It's your own interpretation of the statement, I will say no more, but at least I have a solid written proof, whereas you are basing your argument on shaky grounds.

Obviously we're not comparing anything BUT plot and descriptions here, but it's pretty damn obvious bungie spent a hell lot more time on the Multiplayer aspects. As for the gimmicks,let's face it, Forge, Firefight, and theatre are all very nice, but the first two didn't need that much work put into them. And also, the armour customizations...wow..totally unnecessary, especially the attachments, it's not like they do anything in gameplay and they all look like they're glued on anyways. I enjoy what they have done, but I would much prefer that they had put more effort into the campaign rather than the extra additions. In other words, I'd much rather they created something akin to Half-Life 2 rather than what they gave.

I will hold my stance on that since a longer battle does not make sense, the shorter and more emotional impact version is better for the story. I will explain the butterfly effect in the story elsewhere, for it will take too much space and time.

Jorge, carter, Emile
Even if you're not trying to justify breakage it feels like you're trying to justify "sucking", at least that is how it feels sometimes.


Spartan IIs are all supposed to be more or less independent one-man armies...they are super soldiers and tactical geniuses rolled into one, but the halo games have always neglected this. For the first time ever, Bungie has a chance to portray another Spartan II, and yet they decided to portray Jorge as a sensitive camel, physically imposing but slow and kinda dumb. The whole point of Spartan IIs was that they are NOT the same as normal humans, and do not suffer from distractions, physical, mental or otherwise, such as over-sympathy. Those who've read the novels could pick up on their subtle yet certain humanity, and if Bungie wanted the players to understand that, then encourage reading the novels instead of flinging these obvious attempts of humanity at the players face during the game. Differing personality is fine, but the fact is that Spartan indoctrination has to eradicate the overt signs of emotional reliance, because, as people have mentioned, Jorge seemed to sacrifice tactical moves for the sake of being "caringly protective", which is not what Spartans are taught to do.

What did Carter do in the entire campaign that contributed to the over-arching story, other than the one that I already mentioned? You say he's portrayed well, so explain how. Why do you think he looks like a good leader? Why do you think his actions fits that of the most elite squad of Spartan III? Being a puppet makes for a poor leader, if you have not noticed...

Emile's character flaw is damn obvious...How did he die? He shot an elite, then slowly stood over it and yelled "Who's next?", all of the time unaware that a zealot is behind him, about to impale him with an energy sword. And it's pretty obvious from the beginning that Emile is overly-confident, so it's not even just a one-time thing. His pride is his character flaw, and being that Noble team is the most elite Spartan III squad ever, how did this serious flaw slip by the screening? Yea, Kat has horrible situation awareness, but the rest of noble isn't any better. Emile's death is an example.
I am, in fact, justifying Halo: Reach's lack of logic, and therefore should not have taken higher priority than the original story.



[Edited on 02.07.2011 7:19 PM PST]

  • 02.07.2011 7:16 PM PDT

You know, I have a feeling all of the people defending Reach to the death don't give a crap for Halo's Canon, they just want Bungie to be right.To them no matter what they do, Bungie will always be right.

It is this mentality that has lead us to Halo Reach.

  • 02.07.2011 7:28 PM PDT

I know all about the butterfly affect theory and what it means. And no, I do not think the SIIs are going to just be sitting around. Logic is a double-edged sword my friend, I know from logic and what I know of the UNSC, that the SIIs will be out in combat roles, wherever they happen to be in the story, I do not need to be told where they are to know they're fighting.
I don't need to know what specifically they are doing to know they are doing something.

There are many logical reasons why it was no seen later, if that is indeed the case of how they snuck in undetected. There is nothing to favor either side, as there are plenty of logical explanations to swing the issue either way, all it is is a weak point that has not been resolved yet.

Chief/Hyper Lethal-Vector

I didn't get the impression that is was before the events of Reach, but hey that's just me, the trailer can have taken place at any time between Halsey's confrontation debriefing with Noble Team and her meeting again with the surviving members of the team. And I see that there's not really any factual evidence of contradiction, it is merely evidence that bias can use one way or the other.

Blowing up Alpha Halo twice is hardly a plot device, you have more evidence for the Ascendant Justice issue and the narrow escape from the Forerunner Temple, but event the Ascendant Justice bit is still rather flimsy, he would have kicked ass all the way to the bridge anyway, and then Cortana still would have blasted all the air out. I say he is the best based on what he has done, not his well-rounded skill set. Everything I have ever seen has portrayed him as the best, hell, as I've pointed out several times now even the books say this. He ALWAYS placed top in their training exercises. Sure, there could be more than two Hyper-Lethal Vectors, but there are no others who measure up to whatever standard warrants being dubbed such. Hyper-Lethal Vector is even mentioned in Six's profile information in the information on Reach's characters, creatures, and the new weapons and vehicles.
So no, it's not just advertising in the trailer, it's part of Six's character description.

Length of Battle

Reach falling in a couple hours did not move me at all, it made the Covenant feel like all powerful omnipotent gods, and made the UNSC look like feeble morons with mental difficulties to me. A longer space of time feels much more natural to me, it makes both sides seem closer to actually making sense than one side being comparative gods and the other being little more than dimwitted apes.

Noble Team

I did not see Jorge as dumb at all, yeah, you try being fast while lugging a turret around. No matter how hard you try, you simply cannot remove a person's personality, Jorge is obviously much more of a softy than any other Spartan, that is just who he is. He kinda strikes me as the team's PR guy, the one to interact with non-Spartans when needed. I much prefer all the portrayals of Spartans in the games and other media because they actually show personality and are portrayed more realistically. As much as I love the novels and the characters in them, the depictions of the Spartans make them feel like little more than robots. If you are referring to what I think you are referring to then I have this to say, any other Spartan would have done the same, their purpose is to protect humanity, well kinda it's part their job description anyway, and because of that they will not let anyone die that they could save. And they have often placed themselves between whatever danger is present and the whatever weaker people may be in their group at the moment.

I don't have much to say about Carter to explain why I think the way I do about him due what little screen time he had, but what I saw felt right. I'll try though, no guarantees that it will sound any good. I think he's a strong leader because he cares about his men, he cares about the goal and accomplishing the task at hand, even if that means he has to sacrifice himself for the greater good. Not necessarily, you can be a puppet and still make plenty rational and intelligent decisions, and Carter did for the most part, he just didn't really look past the mission parameters and anything that feel outside them he ignored, such as the one Zealot who got away.

Yes, he is arrogant and cocky, that's part of the macho behavior I was talking about, they kept him in the field because of his effectiveness in battle, even he clearly had issues, but when you're desperate in a war as serious as the Covenant war was shaping up to be you keep valuable fighters around. And I think his death was spaced out more for dramatic affect than anything else, as most death scenes often do no matter how stupid it may seem.

  • 02.08.2011 7:52 AM PDT

Loyal Halo fan.
H:CE, H:CE PC, H:2, H:2 Vista, H:3, H:3 ODST, H:Wars, H:Reach


Posted by: Alpha00
Posted by: Moth101
Posted by: OrderedComa
Spartans cant kick as much ass in gameplay as they really can because otherwise things would just play themselves and you could kick back and your team do all the work. It's like the Arbiter in Halo 3, his AI is rather moronic, like all the rest, but in story he's the greatest Covenant warrior of the age, possibly the equal of a Spartan.

I agree that when the opposing force in a game is not even a tough challenge on its hardest difficulty moronic friendly AI is a good way to balance the scales. However this is a growing problem with the Halo series. Legendary is becoming more like Normal and Heroic while Easy might as well give you invincibility and a bottomless clip, infinite ammo rocket launcher and sniper rifle.

Bungie said that they wanted to make the Covenant scary and alien again. All they did was take away the funny grunt voices and make the Elites jump from side to side a bit. They should have made them harder, tougher and more capable of kicking your armor plated butt back to Onyx. When a supposedly hardcore Elite Zealot commander goes down to a shot from a plasma pistol and a bullet to the head, a not even remotely challenging feat, something is definitely wrong.

They should have given the plasma pistol less lock on, and I very much doubt that state of the art Special Forces amour would be penetrated by one shot of a standard ballistic weapon. Also the Covies plasma weaponry should pack more punch. While the plasma pistol is completely OP in campaign the rest of their armory is much less effective than the supposedly inferior UNSC gear. In the books the plasma powered weapons burn through marines (and as shown by Linda in the book The Fall of Reach, can take out an unshielded Spartan in seconds) and needler rounds can blow a hole in your side. The powers of single shots from these weapons are ridiculously weak and



while they dont fit in with the competitive side of Halo multiplayer they should be more powerful in the Covenants hands.



To make the Covies once again a threatening advanced alien race they should be made stronger and more powerful. Not necessarily more intelligent but definitely more resilient and lethal. This would also mean that better friendly AI wouldnt be overpowering as they would still need back up from the player character.


Super-deadly plasma would make every covenant weapon OP. Especially in Multiplayer.

Sorry but, please read. I possibly could have made it more obvious but it is still made pretty clear that the plasma weapons would only be more powerful in campaign or not included as much in multiplayer. As it is no one touches them much anyway.

You can't deny that compared to the books and to what plasma should do it is rediculously weak.

  • 02.08.2011 9:55 AM PDT

On Waypoint I'm rocketFox;
http://halo.xbox.com/forums/members/rocketfox/default.aspx

Old GTs; RebelRobot, Flamedude

The Bullfrog ODSTs were really terrible werent they? I've never had any survive because they either waded straight into an army of Brutes or they jetpacked into a wall and then plummeted to their deaths. Terrible AI, makes me feel bad for giving them power weapons too when they take them with them.

  • 02.08.2011 11:59 AM PDT

I love how the guy takes an Easter egg as a major plot element.

Edit: And he didn't know enough that ALL of Noble Team's shield systems were disabled due to the glassing beam nearby.

[Edited on 02.08.2011 1:01 PM PST]

  • 02.08.2011 12:52 PM PDT

If you can read this, that means I'm not a Shaolin monk...

yet.


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
I love how the guy takes an Easter egg as a major plot element.

Edit: And he didn't know enough that ALL of Noble Team's shield systems were disabled due to the glassing beam nearby.

Gee, I sure love when you guys think the glassing beam disabled their shields.

  • 02.08.2011 3:08 PM PDT


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
I love how the guy takes an Easter egg as a major plot element.

Edit: And he didn't know enough that ALL of Noble Team's shield systems were disabled due to the glassing beam nearby.

You just gotta believe.
U MAD BRO?

  • 02.08.2011 3:09 PM PDT


Posted by: TheGreenAlloy

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
I love how the guy takes an Easter egg as a major plot element.

Edit: And he didn't know enough that ALL of Noble Team's shield systems were disabled due to the glassing beam nearby.

Gee, I sure love when you guys think the glassing beam disabled their shields.


Combat situation, Spartans would have reactivated shields after putting on their helms (Jun, Kat, and Carter.) No shields were shown recharging/starting up.

I love logic.

  • 02.08.2011 3:47 PM PDT

ThadiusManbeard

Most definitely agreed.

  • 02.08.2011 4:25 PM PDT
  • gamertag: An0nz
  • user homepage:

CoD is a good game, even if the Halo series are better in some aspects. Anyone who insults either is just bad in that game. Grow up.


Posted by: OrderedComa
I know all about the butterfly affect theory and what it means. And no, I do not think the SIIs are going to just be sitting around. Logic is a double-edged sword my friend, I know from logic and what I know of the UNSC, that the SIIs will be out in combat roles, wherever they happen to be in the story, I do not need to be told where they are to know they're fighting.
I don't need to know what specifically they are doing to know they are doing something.

There are many logical reasons why it was no seen later, if that is indeed the case of how they snuck in undetected. There is nothing to favor either side, as there are plenty of logical explanations to swing the issue either way, all it is is a weak point that has not been resolved yet.

Wow...I'm sorry, but if you know what it means, then you would realize how big of a hole your logic has. As I've repeatedly mentioned, Spartan IIs have proved that they can, within a short time, come up with a plan and execute it, with or without superiors' commands. Halo Reach doesn't just "now show" what the Spartans II did, it completely ignored the fact that if they had been there, they would have came up with plans to take care of the covenant presence parallel to Noble Team's. During the first few days or week, the covenant were only in the viery territory, and there's obviously only a few important tactical targets, and yet, from what we've seen, all the work were being done by Noble Team. Why didn't the Spartan II take part at all in some sort of assault plan to take out the super carrier? If Kat can think of a plan, then I'm pretty damn sure the Spartan IIs can, not to mention the AIs the UNSC had. It's not as simple as "OMFG I NOT SEE SPARTAN IIs". It's the fact that IF they had indeed been there, the story would not have been as straight forward as that shown. Counting both Noble Team and the Spartan IIs, there are two groups of elite assets, and yet all we saw was Noble Team doing the most important things while the other Spartans seem to be non-existent.
I didn't get the impression that is was before the events of Reach, but hey that's just me, the trailer can have taken place at any time between Halsey's confrontation debriefing with Noble Team and her meeting again with the surviving members of the team. And I see that there's not really any factual evidence of contradiction, it is merely evidence that bias can use one way or the other.

Blowing up Alpha Halo twice is hardly a plot device, you have more evidence for the Ascendant Justice issue and the narrow escape from the Forerunner Temple, but event the Ascendant Justice bit is still rather flimsy, he would have kicked ass all the way to the bridge anyway, and then Cortana still would have blasted all the air out. I say he is the best based on what he has done, not his well-rounded skill set. Everything I have ever seen has portrayed him as the best, hell, as I've pointed out several times now even the books say this. He ALWAYS placed top in their training exercises. Sure, there could be more than two Hyper-Lethal Vectors, but there are no others who measure up to whatever standard warrants being dubbed such. Hyper-Lethal Vector is even mentioned in Six's profile information in the information on Reach's characters, creatures, and the new weapons and vehicles.
So no, it's not just advertising in the trailer, it's part of Six's character description.

Your own interpretation of the trailer, neither of us will win in that.
And I say again, you confuse plot device with skill, in fact, you even said it yourself...YOU measure how good they are in terms of what they've done, but when we measure someone in terms of a "best" something, we compare their attributes/skill, not their achievements. Their achievements are merely ways to show their skills, but again, it does not define them. You've got it in your head that Chief is the best Spartan, but the simple truth is that he is not. He was one of four top candidates to "LEAD" the Spartans, but other than that, his individual combat prowess isn't necessarily better than the rest of the Spartan IIs. The truth is, if the story had indeed chosen another Spartan II instead of John, it probably would have ended up the same, because luck, or more accurately "plot" would carry them through.

You keep saying the novels say he is the best, then quote the parts where it says so.

*edit: Totally forgot, but the character description on the website is about as reliable as an advertising trailer. It's something they want people to read. In any case it doesn't really say much. The sangheili were described to be 9 feet tall in the Halo: CE manual, and obviously that wasn't true, your character description is on the same level as the manuals.


Reach falling in a couple hours did not move me at all, it made the Covenant feel like all powerful omnipotent gods, and made the UNSC look like feeble morons with mental difficulties to me. A longer space of time feels much more natural to me, it makes both sides seem closer to actually making sense than one side being comparative gods and the other being little more than dimwitted apes.


Well, first of all, Reach didn't fall in "a couple hours". The planetary defense was indeed obliterated in about that much time, but the actual falling of Reach probably happened several hours later than that. Second, from what Reach showed us, Reach definitely should have fallen sooner. I'm not talking about the number of ships, I'm talking about how the Covenant had a 27KM ship in the atmosphere of Reach, along with its escorts. At the time and situation shown by Halo: Reach, there was basically NOTHING that can stop the super-carrier. It was inside the atmosphere so the SMACs can't really take shots at it without catastrophic collateral damage.It probably had hundreds of plasma launchers, and yet it didn't wipe Reach out. Why?

And honestly, your claim of why a longer battle is better is basically like if I claimed that it takes an an entire day to burn a 17" by 8" piece of normal, dry paper. The space battle simply cannot last that long, no matter what. There were at most, 150 UNSC ships to help, but the Covenant would probably have won with about 200 ships. Taking into consideration of wild cards like the Super Cruiser that used energy projectors to gut UNSC ships, you should be thankful that it even lasted a couple hours. And you know what, personally I wouldn't have minded if it was a day longer, but 2 weeks? That's ridiculous.

Depiction of Spartans
And you missed the important part again. The whole point of Spartan IIs, is that they ARE NOT like normal humans. They're indoctrinated super-soldiers, and as cold as it may be, emotions and in rare cases, even morality, are simply human weaknesses that Spartan IIs are indoctrinated against, because these weaknesses often cloud the bigger picture, and they cannot be allowed to exist for the best of the best. Spartans, as described by the novels, are symbols for true, unyielding strength and the last hope, they're the first and last line of defense of humanity has, and that's why their burden, even during the precious little down-time they have, is heavier than anyone else. They are like robots because they have to be that way, that's the simple truth. Even then, if you've indeed read the novels then you should know that they are just as human as anyone else, and honestly, after all they've been through, if they still have the spirit to go joking about it, then they're immortal. All I can say is that they're like Batman in The Dark Knight. Spartans sacrifice the luxury of emotional freedom in return for their near-faultless abilities.

Personalities can change, especially if you're taught from the age of 6. Will used to be the "funny guy" of the Spartans, but even he changed... Maybe people will always hold a small spot for old sentiments, but as a Spartan II, of course you won't be blatantly showing it, which makes it weird that Jorge still does show it, and if he has this inherent emotional weakness, I don't understand exactly how he made it through screening AND all that indoctrination and training. And plus, even if he is in fact that way, it still doesn't excuse his sheep-like personality, and his lack of tactical thinking. When they were attacked in Winter Contingency, why did he cover the girl? It is said that a good defense is a good offense. Instead of making himself a defenseless target, he could have done something to neutralize the threat. What's his size for if not to be used against the enemy?

Honestly, I've said just about all I can say about Carter's lack of quick thinking when in field operations, and you're just using your own opinion anyways, so I'm just not gonna go over that.

I don't give a crap if Emile is kept IN Noble Team, I'm questioning why he was allowed to join in the first place. You seem to underestimate how big of a problem over-confidence really is, because that is a HUGE character flaw, and if Noble Team was so elite, then the screening would have chosen the few Spartan IIIs who are most like their Spartan II counterparts. His death wasn't even slowed down, it was just a failure of situational awareness.

You base your arguments on 3 preconceptions:
That Master Chief is the best Spartan when other Spartans have been shown to be superior in different attributes. Being the best Spartan isn't just about what the Spartan did.

That the battle of Reach should last much longer than a day when it makes sense already if you actually consider the facts.

That the Spartans should be portrayed with human flaws when the whole point of their creation is that they don't.

You have your own opinions, don't use them as facts.

[Edited on 02.08.2011 7:18 PM PST]

  • 02.08.2011 6:04 PM PDT
  •  | 
  • Exalted Legendary Member

I apologize in advance for all the crappy jokes I make.

I agree with almost everything that guy said.

  • 02.08.2011 6:15 PM PDT

If you can read this, that means I'm not a Shaolin monk...

yet.


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: TheGreenAlloy

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
I love how the guy takes an Easter egg as a major plot element.

Edit: And he didn't know enough that ALL of Noble Team's shield systems were disabled due to the glassing beam nearby.

Gee, I sure love when you guys think the glassing beam disabled their shields.


Combat situation, Spartans would have reactivated shields after putting on their helms (Jun, Kat, and Carter.) No shields were shown recharging/starting up.

I love logic.

No shields were shown going down, either.

  • 02.09.2011 6:30 AM PDT

Posted By:Beowolfe
First Section


I'm sorry but it really does not apply well to fiction, due to it not being real, the creator can do whatever the hell he wants and still not have it be affected by the butterfly affect. This is Noble Team's story set during Reach's fall, being about Noble Team and their efforts the story is not going to focus on other important characters of the universe, even if it would make sense to, this is a common thing for fictional, expansive universes with multiple major characters, plots, and settings. We do not know the specifics of the SIIs were getting up to, if they're involved in other fights they're not going to be pulled away from where they already are to help with an issue that a free team already has under control.

Second Section

I agree on the significance of the trailer issue, that's getting nowhere fast.

The two are inextricably linked, achievements are 99.9% of the time based on skill. Chief is the best because what he has achieved, and he achieves what he does because of skill. If Bungie and the authors had indeed chosen another Spartan as their favorite then I would be arguing for them instead, and our argument would still probably be the same. And luck only plays a minor part in Chief's escapades, his successes are a direct combination, or him explicitly trying to exploit his luck.

I don't own the books, so I don't have direct access to the actual source material, I only have my memory, I believe it was in either First Strike or Ghosts of Onyx, may have been TFoR but I do not believe it was that one.

On Noble Six: And nothing has contradicted that character bio yet, until something does, like it or not, it is canon until higher source material says otherwise. And I believe that these would probably be slightly higher than a trailer, but that's just me assigning random nonsense of rank within the different tiers of canon.

Third Section

I'm just saying what the book did about the situation in TFoR, Keyes basically says when it's time to get the Autumn booking for Halo at the end of the space fighting that Reach is lost. No, it should not have fallen sooner, the LNoS, until it was outed, was used primarily as the central command of sorts for the scouting force and a staging ground, it was not supposed to attack, and because plot demanded it, but the first would be the "official" reason probably.

The story has not given any "space battle ends here" date yet, I highly doubt they lasted two weeks, but I am very convinced that it was a great deal more than a couple hours for the UNSC fleet to be pounded into submission, they might still be fighting up until the 30th, but by that point it would definitely be a losing battle with a large helping of "take as many with you as you can" sort of fight. I'm not saying the battle was going strong for two weeks, even thinking the Covenant are overpowered I don't think of them as that pitiful. It would certainly be a "no holds barred beatdown" but I don't think it'd be an "no way you're going to win massively destructive curb-stomp battle".

Fourth Section

No, just no, they were taught how to control their emotions, what you are saying is completely different. You can keep your emotions under control and not let them control you and still not be a robot, their robotic portrayal is simply a poor design in characterization and portrayal. Yeah, they do show character in the novels, I was kind of exaggerating a bit and blowing things out of proportion, but they could still have displayed more character and still have been the ultimate soldiers without being weak because of emotions.

They can change, yes, but not as drastically as you seem to be thinking, the personality is essentially who you are. A moody and sarcastic person will still be somewhat moody and sarcastic no matter what personal growth or whatever they go through. Zuko from Avatar: The Last Airbender is a prime example of what I'm talking about, the guy goes through a lot throughout the series, but you can still see he's the same guy from the start, still rather brooding and serious, even after all he's gone through. I still hold to my statement that any other Spartan would have done the same, maybe not exactly what Jorge did, but they would have had the same reaction, even if their response was different.

You asked me for why I thought Carter was a good leader, I said why I thought that. Obviously it was opinion, because we don't think of him the same way, I view as a good leader who has his flaws like anyone else in the universe, you view him as a poor leader. Unless one of us changes opinion we're not going to agree.

Faults generally become more exaggerated and obvious over time, at least in my experience, I would think that Emile's cockiness and over-confidence became more evident over time, and it strikes me as more like it's an act of sorts that he puts on. I mean yeah, he is cocky, but I think he exaggerates it himself to appear more macho. And the Spartan IIIs can't be like their SII cousins, the augmentations are totally different, with a few harmful in the long run ones added into the mix, and the gene and age pool is much less restricted, and the IIIs weren't meant to survive long, they're looking more for raw talent that can help win the war than they are for perfect soldiers.

Your first two observations are mostly accurate, except that they're not preconceptions, I have come to think that way from observing the story and going through the various mediums.

I am not using my opinions as fact, no more than you are, we are both taking mostly neutral facts and using them as evidence in our arguments. Facts are always interpreted by any opinions or biases those debating have. I am using facts to back up my opinion, I am not trying to use solely opinion as fact, because that's just stupid.

  • 02.09.2011 10:25 AM PDT
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UWG Great group, you should check it out.

BungieHUB

Yeah, that's bad. But you know what? You could take just about ANY game out there, including Call of Duty, and do the exact same thing. Every game has it's flaws, and while this one has more than it's fair share, it's not alone.

[Edited on 02.09.2011 1:08 PM PST]

  • 02.09.2011 1:08 PM PDT


Posted by: Aratech


Just read the whole review. Though I agree a lot of it was utter bull -blam!-, I need to say that some of the situations made sense, if not perfect sense, and some of your fixes wouldn't work.

The Longswords were there to push the corvette into a safe field of fire for the SMACs, so it woudn't destroy the Trooper barracks the ship was positioned over at the time (and thus shatter the entire base at the same time). Still don't get how Banshees can take out a Longsword though....

Also, the weapons in the games suck compared to real life because it is a game. In Contact Harvest, a Militia trooper managed to fire at bulls eyes on a target with an Assault Rifle MA5B at 500 meters way and perfectly accurate. You can't judge the gun's abilities on game alone.

Also, it did not ruin the entire Halo story. It destroyed some parts of it, but not the whole thing. See, a lot of what is complained about is perfectly explained in the journals, major discrepancies fixed and whatnot.

The Forerunners and Precursors weren't even touched. Actually the driving aspects of the Halo Story weren't touched at all, except introducing the committee of minds.

Speaking of which, its actually not true that Reach nerfed the Covie's capabilities. The Assembly was talking specifically about the Covenant's inability to literally glass a planet. They never denied there ability to incinerate them, only there ability to turn them into glass, which is the common Covenant claim.

Overall, to be honest, I thought the review was a little to emotionally heated to be a legitimate review. There's a lot of things you didn't consider, and though you are certaintly right on several things, it seems on other things your emotions got in the way of logical thinking and you didn't see all the possibilities. I've already explained one of them above.

See, the canon discrepancies in Reach are mostly explained in Halsey's journal. And the overarching story of the series as a whole is so mind boggling, it actually blew away my teacher (who is one of those radical books>>>games types).

I don't really try to find things like plotholes, such as the mass driver, because the smallest details like that don't matter. For me, its the vast, nearly infinite universe and story of the series. Things like the datapads (which you spoke briefly of) are what ultimately matter in the Halo story, not the primarily obvious stories themselves. At least IMO.

If you look back on the series, each game save ODST, and almost all other installments, have introduced to us another clue, another hint at the grand mystery of the Halo story, even if its a small, seemingly insignificant aspect.

For Halo 1, it was the intro of the Forerunner/Flood conflict, and the Rings.

For Halo 2, it was the introduction of the impossibly intelligent Gravemind as the center of the Flood biomass.

For Halo 3, it was the true start of the story, when we were introduced to Medicant Bias, and his struggle with the Gravemind and himself. Alongside the first glimpses of the true conflict: the Precursors, the Flood and the Legendary Planet.

For Halo Wars it was the fact that the Flood still had consistent and total dominance of some parts of the galaxy.

And for Reach, it was the introduction of the Assembly, the ones who have been pulling the strings from the start.

Its these things that I look for in Halo, the small clues that, if you think about them for a bit, and connect the dots, well...its incredible what you'll realize.

  • 02.09.2011 4:37 PM PDT


Posted by: ROBERTO jh

Posted by: Aratech


Just read the whole review. Though I agree a lot of it was utter bull -blam!-, I need to say that some of the situations made sense, if not perfect sense, and some of your fixes wouldn't work.

The Longswords were there to push the corvette into a safe field of fire for the SMACs, so it woudn't destroy the Trooper barracks the ship was positioned over at the time (and thus shatter the entire base at the same time). Still don't get how Banshees can take out a Longsword though....

Also, the weapons in the games suck compared to real life because it is a game. In Contact Harvest, a Militia trooper managed to fire at bulls eyes on a target with an Assault Rifle MA5B at 500 meters way and perfectly accurate. You can't judge the gun's abilities on game alone.

Also, it did not ruin the entire Halo story. It destroyed some parts of it, but not the whole thing. See, a lot of what is complained about is perfectly explained in the journals, major discrepancies fixed and whatnot.

The Forerunners and Precursors weren't even touched. Actually the driving aspects of the Halo Story weren't touched at all, except introducing the committee of minds.

Speaking of which, its actually not true that Reach nerfed the Covie's capabilities. The Assembly was talking specifically about the Covenant's inability to literally glass a planet. They never denied there ability to incinerate them, only there ability to turn them into glass, which is the common Covenant claim.

Overall, to be honest, I thought the review was a little to emotionally heated to be a legitimate review. There's a lot of things you didn't consider, and though you are certaintly right on several things, it seems on other things your emotions got in the way of logical thinking and you didn't see all the possibilities. I've already explained one of them above.

See, the canon discrepancies in Reach are mostly explained in Halsey's journal. And the overarching story of the series as a whole is so mind boggling, it actually blew away my teacher (who is one of those radical books>>>games types).

I don't really try to find things like plotholes, such as the mass driver, because the smallest details like that don't matter. For me, its the vast, nearly infinite universe and story of the series. Things like the datapads (which you spoke briefly of) are what ultimately matter in the Halo story, not the primarily obvious stories themselves. At least IMO.

If you look back on the series, each game save ODST, and almost all other installments, have introduced to us another clue, another hint at the grand mystery of the Halo story, even if its a small, seemingly insignificant aspect.

For Halo 1, it was the intro of the Forerunner/Flood conflict, and the Rings.

For Halo 2, it was the introduction of the impossibly intelligent Gravemind as the center of the Flood biomass.

For Halo 3, it was the true start of the story, when we were introduced to Medicant Bias, and his struggle with the Gravemind and himself. Alongside the first glimpses of the true conflict: the Precursors, the Flood and the Legendary Planet.

For Halo Wars it was the fact that the Flood still had consistent and total dominance of some parts of the galaxy.

And for Reach, it was the introduction of the Assembly, the ones who have been pulling the strings from the start.

Its these things that I look for in Halo, the small clues that, if you think about them for a bit, and connect the dots, well...its incredible what you'll realize.


I agree with a lot of what you said here, Roberto, a lot more of the situations made much more sense than Aratech claimed in his article. I certainly felt a little put off by the emotional heat he gave off in his review, I still listened to what he said, but it put my mind in a more hostile mindset and a little on the offensive.

Thinking about it a little more, I think you were clearing the skies, not so much because the Banshees and Phantoms posed any real danger to the Longswords, but to make their job easier, the Corvette would likely not have retreated if it still had had all its back-up air support to help fend off a couple of pesky fighters. Their presence would also make the job a little harder for the Longswords because they'd have to be fending the enemy off and herding the Corvette at the same time.

I'm the same way, only the plot-holes that get in the way of the story really bother me, such a thing as one of the characters saying they don't have any nukes available doesn't really bother me, as it doesn't really affect the story significantly in any way. As long as the series stays good, which Halo certainly is doing, the whole introduction of the Assembly in the Data Pads certainly is interesting, even if I don't exactly put all that much stock in it, they sound kinda like they were interpreted through the ravings the of a lunatic no matter how based in fact they, but that's just me, small things won't bother me. I certainly won't lose any sleep over Halo having a minor retcon such as extending the Battle of Reach to a more plausible length.

  • 02.09.2011 7:58 PM PDT
  • gamertag: An0nz
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CoD is a good game, even if the Halo series are better in some aspects. Anyone who insults either is just bad in that game. Grow up.


Posted by: OrderedComa
Sense vs Fiction

And I'm going to have to disagree with you right there. There's a quote I cherish, by Tom Clancy, that goes "The difference between reality and fiction? Fiction has to make sense". Fiction is man-made, and anything man made has its own "pattern". For stories, that pattern is logic/sense. An illogical story will lead to people questioning it, like I and plenty others are doing so right now in this forum. Being fictional is not an excuse to leave out logic, fiction, especially science fiction, isn't the same as fantasy, we still need to ground things to some level of logic and realism.

*edit: And Reach didn't need to focus on the Spartan IIs, simply make it clear that Noble Team wasn't the only one executing the significant operations, they could have had Noble Team and Spartan IIs work together to a certain extent; it doesn't even have to be direct cooperation, something like "The Spartan IIs have taken down X, we need you to do Y".

Chief and plot, achivements vs skill
Achievements and skill are indeed linked, that is very true, however, the relation is one-way. One achieves through skill (or luck but that's not the point), but (luck/plot based, specifically) achievements do not give skill.

In the case of John, I will admit a large part of his achievements are indeed brought by skill, but at the same time, that does not make him the "best" Spartan,especially because we don't know the definition of "best Spartan" is. What you claim here, with achievements as the basis, will only support that he is the Spartan who is most famous/accomplished the most. But, as I've said, that is not based on his skill only, but rather the fact that he was the Spartan that the plot has decided to champion. If, in Halo 2 or Halo 3, it was another Spartan that went to Delta halo/the ark, then they would have accomplished the same as John did, because they are not lacking in any of the attributes that he possessed. That is why I say plot device and skill are different.

MC source+Noble six hyper lethal

I highly doubt that John was said to be the best Spartan, I can believe if he places among the top during training, but that doesn't say that much, especially since the training they had were usually team exercises.

Again, sure, we'll take into consideration that there are no clear contradicting sources, but that still doesn't give a definition for hyper lethal. Making entire militia groups disappear is not a difficult task for any Spartan, especially not Spartan IIs. Need I remind you that at the age of 14, John, Fred, Linda and Kelly infiltrated a rebel base with little protection and managed to kidnap a high priority target?
Now that they're grown up, have experience, and wears at least the Mjolnir IV, it's not that difficult.

On the other hand, MC appears to be advertised as the other hyper lethal vector, but he's not the best of the Spartans so there are definitely more, so MC's feats can't really be used as the definition either.

Battle of Reach

Reach WAS lost at that point, but the battle wasn't completely over even then. And you just helped me with your own words. The plot demanded that the LNOS does not destroy Reach, but that, just like its fantasy counterpart, luck, does not fit well with logic. If it had taken the first strikes and took out the ODP generators or even just the larger UNSC tactical standpoints on Reach, they wouldn't have needed to lose so much later on. This Covenant commander is pretty retarded to let that opportunity slide. Another illogical part established.

As for the battle; I'll give you an example of what it is like. Visualize a large, fully closed space like a warehouse. There is just about nothing that can be used as cover in the warehouse, save for a few large wooden crates on one side of the warehouse, but they will be easily destroyed by a relatively low amount of damage. On that side, there are a group of people made is made of about 170 people, 150 of whom are wielding medium powered pistols, some with 2, and 20 of whom are wielding high powered and accurate pistols. They are not wearing armour.

The other group of people is made of 314 people, all of whom are wearing full body armour and wield at least a pair of medium powered pistols. Some of these people are wearing heavier armour than others and have more deadly/accurate guns as well. The body armour, on average, allow the wearer to negate 2 shots from the enemy side before starting to take damage, but the heavy pistol will kill its target no matter what. The area is large enough in which each person on either side has plenty of space to move around. Which side do you think will win in a firefight according only to what I've mentioned?

If you have not realized it by now, I've just made a crude analogy to the space battle over the Fall of Reach. The side with more people being the covenant, and the other obviously the UNSC. That is basically how the situation is, so how long do you honestly expect the battle to last? I estimate the situation in my analogy to last no longer than half an hour. But when you claim that the battle of Reach should have lasted 2 weeks, it's basically like claiming the situation in my analogy would last 12 hours. That's simply how it is if you go by the facts.

Spartan IIs

You completely forget one important fact; the Spartans were indoctrinated since they are 6 years old. At that age, people are incredibly impressionable, and with adequate teaching, their personalities can easily change. And the Spartans weren't just "taught" to control their emotions during lessons, they lived constantly under the rules of the indoctrination. They were not taught the luxuries that normal children might have had, to them, the military life is all they've ever known, and they cannot connect to the outer-world as easily as you may think. Seriously, I'd like you to think about that. At the age of 6, everything they knew went by the military rules. What sort of personality do you think military rules would teach? Obviously not one that is akin to an emotional wreck. I was hoping I'd gotten this point across, but I see I neglected to fully mention the importance of their childhood.

You also have to realize that, growing up, the Spartan IIs knew they were different; they were regarded as freaks by the marines that they played war games against in training, and they don't have contact with normal civilians. They were not only taught to suppress their emotions, they are also excluded from the "normal" life. How emotional would you be under those circumstances?
We don't know what other Spartans would have done, but I would definitely guess that they would try and take the advantage by using offense instead of something can is akin to suicide.

Emile, preconceptions



Don't really care about Carter, you can think whatever you want.

Emile, however, has no excuse. He was not an original member of Noble Team, yet he still was pulled prior to the suicide mission, so he was pulled without joining Noble Team immediately. So how was he allowed to join later on? Clearly by the time when he did join he would have shown signs of his prideful personality, and being that Kat is from Beta company, it is apparent that there could have been people pulled from there instead of using a potentially out of control Spartan. A dead Spartan isn't much of a use, and a Spartan who could die because of their cockiness is even worse.

I'd give you partial credits for observations for preconception 1, though even then not much, but the 2nd one is mainly based on your own opinion of how it should have been, since you already have expressed your disagreement with the strength of the Covenant. Yet you never actually explained with facts, instead saying that the UNSC losing in a short time doesn't make sense. But in terms of that, I've already answered your arguments above. And if you really think about it, the depiction of UNSC vs Covenant actually showed that the humans are tough as hell. They took out more than their (predicted) share of the Covenant ships.


[Edited on 02.09.2011 8:37 PM PST]

  • 02.09.2011 8:17 PM PDT

About me: I am a vicious wolf of a man.

But really am sweet at heart. =)

People are still going on about this?

Reach is crap.

The concept of Noble Team makes no sense from the get go anyway... If you are going to create SpecWarTeams and outfit them with hugely awesome tech to use...why not just train more Spartan IIs to use the tech and use the surviving S-IIIs from the suicide mission to train them on REAL battlefield senerios?

And people are STILL going on about this hyper lethal vector bs?

ANYONE can be hyper lethal! I can be hyper lethal! ANY Spartan is! KAT is even Hyper-Lethal, she's run me over in a Warthog plenty of times!

  • 02.09.2011 8:23 PM PDT

About hyper-lethal, Until somebody links me to in-universe statement by somebody prior to events of Halo CE, Six is the only named Spartan of the two labeled hyper-lethal.

  • 02.09.2011 8:34 PM PDT

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