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  • Subject: Halo: Reach Brutes....What happened?
Subject: Halo: Reach Brutes....What happened?
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Posted by: anton1792
The Prophets were contradicting their own teachings, which confused the Elites. The Elites would have favored Humanity a part of the Covenant, as is what the Prophets supposedly offer all races as a choice. It is also in the Elites tradition to accept those who fought them into their ranks.

The Brutes do not question authority. The Elites do. They are more devout to the Great Journey than the Elites. Thus the Heirarchs plotted the genocide of the Elites and to replace them with Brutes, as the Elites were becoming more aware (Heretics such as Sesa 'Refumee and the dilemma of Humanity). The assassination of Regret and replacing of the Guard was simply a means to an end. The seeds of the Elites joining with Humanity rather than the Brutes were plotted in the story well before the Brutes became proper characters and the majority of the extended canon created when the Conversations from the Universe booklet was released with Halo 2 limited edition.

So yeah, the Schism was not a temper tantrum from the Elites, but a response to the Prophets declaring genocide of their entire race.


I feel so bad for the Elites...my heart goes out to them.

I am going to carefully pick apart what you said...

The Prophets were contradicting their own teachings, which confused the Elites. The Elites would have favored Humanity a part of the Covenant

Wrong. The Prophets ordered the humans destroyed because they lied and said humans were desecrating Forerunner Tech. whether this was true or false, the Elites believed tampering with Forerunner artifacts was a sin punishable by death. The Covenant adopted this philosophy in part when only the vanguards of the Forerunners, the engineers, were deemed worthy enough to handle the Forerunner stuff. The Elites ACCEPTED the task of destroying the humans, irregardless of their feelings, because they were still defiling Forerunner stuff.

The Brutes do not question authority. The Elites do.

Wrong. The Elites didn't question authority when they were given the task of glassing Balaho if the Grunt uprising didn't cease. They didn't question authority when they went from planet to planet, under the order of the prophets to commit mass genocide, to recruit people into their holy club. They didn't question authority when they eliminated 20 billion+ humans. They only time they question authority is when THEY are in the hot seat.

Brutes are more devout to the Great Journey than the Elites

This only says brutes are more trustworthy.

Thus the Hierarchs plotted the genocide of the Elites and to replace them with Brutes, as the Elites were becoming more aware (Heretics such as Sesa 'Refumee and the dilemma of Humanity).

Heresy predates the encounter with humans. That heretic leader, Sesa 'Refumee, would have been none-the-wiser had he never talked to Guilty Spark. Rtas didn't seem too worried something was wrong when he heard about the heretic leader...he just thought "some bonehead is casing trouble. Time to earn another paycheck." Arbiter had a conversation with the heretic leader and even he wasn't suspicious. He was just like "Another bonehead making me work hard." Furthermore, only Truth was involved in that plot with Tartarus, Mercy and Regret had nothing to do with it.

The assassination of Regret and replacing of the Guard was simply a means to an end. The seeds of the Elites joining with Humanity rather than the Brutes were plotted in the story well before the Brutes became proper characters and the majority of the extended canon created when the Conversations from the Universe booklet was released with Halo 2 limited edition.

What if Regret never died? You are saying the Elites staked EVERYTHING on one of the most unlikely events to occur. If Regret never died, The Elites would continue to serve as the guard, and things would have gone on without a hitch and all life would most likely have been destroyed.

So yeah, the Schism was not a temper tantrum from the Elites, but a response to the Prophets declaring genocide of their entire race.

So when the Councilors withdrew from Council in protest...that wasn't a temper tantrum? A protest is just a fancy word for whining and complaining...and when you whine and complain...you are throwing a temper tantrum.

I feel so bad for the Elites. They make such convenient victims. How many humans worlds did they glass? How much blood did they spill?

Only when it was their turn to get the genocide treatment, did they all of a sudden...oppose genocide. I like to equate glassing to genocide...so:

-They had no problem glassing hunters during the Taming of the Hunters

-They were about to glass Balaho during the Grunt uprising...and they had no problem with this.

-They glassed countless human worlds.

-They possibly wanted to glass Doisac after the events of Halo 3.

But as soon as you try to glass the Elites for messing up...we will betray you. Count on it.

What does this say about a society that holds honor in such high regard? It says that as a society, the Elites are baseless, and they are nothing more than turncoats to the most convenient ally. It means they are jerks...and jerks make good bad guys.

I stick to my original thesis on how Brutes would have made better allies in terms of story structure.

  • 02.23.2011 7:15 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: Naked Crook
The Prophets were contradicting their own teachings, which confused the Elites. The Elites would have favored Humanity a part of the Covenant
Wrong. The Prophets ordered the humans destroyed because they lied and said humans were desecrating Forerunner Tech. whether this was true or false, the Elites believed tampering with Forerunner artifacts was a sin punishable by death. The Covenant adopted this philosophy in part when only the vanguards of the Forerunners, the engineers, were deemed worthy enough to handle the Forerunner stuff. The Elites ACCEPTED the task of destroying the humans, irregardless of their feelings, because they were still defiling Forerunner stuff.

Having not read the books, you have missed important plot points. The Prophet of Truth stated (Before encountering Humanity) that any species was free to join the Covenant. That is the way it had always been. The fact that Humanity were blamed with destroying Forerunner technology has, in the long run, nothing to do with anything as the Hunters were convicted of the same crime and let off with it, and allowed to join the Covenant. The Elites wondered why the situation was so different this time. There was doubt from the start.

Posted by: Naked Crook
The Brutes do not question authority. The Elites do.
Wrong. The Elites didn't question authority when they were given the task of glassing Balaho if the Grunt uprising didn't cease. They didn't question authority when they went from planet to planet, under the order of the prophets to commit mass genocide, to recruit people into their holy club. They didn't question authority when they eliminated 20 billion+ humans. They only time they question authority is when THEY are in the hot seat.

They are not a hive mind. Zhar in the Cole Protocol was an example of questioning authority. He drew his sword on the Prophet of Truth before Thel beheaded him. Reff 'Talamee in Bloodlines was prepared to use a Forerunner slipspace weapon to destroy High Charity in order to unify the Covenant and Humanity. The verse from Conversations from the Universe also shows how the Elites did not fell what they professed. There was an uprising of Elites shortly before Halo Wars that were opposed to the new Heirarchs, subsequently put down by Ripa 'Moramee. Then there is the Elites of the Gas mine in Halo 2.

We know nothing of the past wars. You like to advocate absence of evidence being evidence of absence I see. Well this is one of them. We know nothing of the Elites feelings about the taming of the Hunter or the Grunt rebellions.

Posted by: Naked Crook
Brutes are more devout to the Great Journey than the Elites
This only says brutes are more trustworthy.

Which is why the Elites were ousted. Not due a temper tantrum over the change of guard the schism was, but due to this.

Posted by: Naked Crook
Thus the Hierarchs plotted the genocide of the Elites and to replace them with Brutes, as the Elites were becoming more aware (Heretics such as Sesa 'Refumee and the dilemma of Humanity).
Heresy predates the encounter with humans. That heretic leader, Sesa 'Refumee, would have been none-the-wiser had he never talked to Guilty Spark. Rtas didn't seem too worried something was wrong when he heard about the heretic leader...he just thought "some bonehead is casing trouble. Time to earn another paycheck." Arbiter had a conversation with the heretic leader and even he wasn't suspicious. He was just like "Another bonehead making me work hard." Furthermore, only Truth was involved in that plot with Tartarus, Mercy and Regret had nothing to do with it.

It is heavily implied in the Conversations Booklet that Mercy was in on it with Truth. The Cole Protocol had Regret and Truth resolve to watch their step with the Sangheili.

Examples of Rtas and Thel do not suffice the conclusion that all Sangheili were unaware and undoubting, given the number that were aware of something being amiss.

Posted by: Naked Crook
The assassination of Regret and replacing of the Guard was simply a means to an end. The seeds of the Elites joining with Humanity rather than the Brutes were plotted in the story well before the Brutes became proper characters and the majority of the extended canon created when the Conversations from the Universe booklet was released with Halo 2 limited edition.
What if Regret never died? You are saying the Elites staked EVERYTHING on one of the most unlikely events to occur. If Regret never died, The Elites would continue to serve as the guard, and things would have gone on without a hitch and all life would most likely have been destroyed.

The Elites had nothing to with it. They were not planning the schism, the Heirarchs were. Regrets death was not planned by any party, but it was an opportunity. Once presented, Truth seized it to use it as leverage to start replacing the Elites.

Posted by: Naked Crook
So yeah, the Schism was not a temper tantrum from the Elites, but a response to the Prophets declaring genocide of their entire race.
So when the Councilors withdrew from Council in protest...that wasn't a temper tantrum? A protest is just a fancy word for whining and complaining...and when you whine and complain...you are throwing a temper tantrum.

Threatening to resign. Same result anyway, okay. You are forgetting the fact that the reinforcements that were sent had a good chance of getting to Regret before Chief killed him. However, Truth pulled them back and allowed Regret to fall. It would then be apparent that the fault is his and not necessarily the Elites for Regrets death. That is why they were pissed - wrong accusations.

Posted by: Naked Crook
I feel so bad for the Elites. They make such convenient victims. How many humans worlds did they glass? How much blood did they spill?

Only when it was their turn to get the genocide treatment, did they all of a sudden...oppose genocide. I like to equate glassing to genocide...so:

-They had no problem glassing hunters during the Taming of the Hunters

-They were about to glass Balaho during the Grunt uprising...and they had no problem with this.

-They glassed countless human worlds.

-They possibly wanted to glass Doisac after the events of Halo 3.

But as soon as you try to glass the Elites for messing up...we will betray you. Count on it.

There is a funny thing called Religion, and it tends to make people do some of the most irrational and horrific things imaginable if used correctly.

If the Elites said no - Wiped out.

Why would they be wiped out? Because they would be classed as heretics. In most religions, that usually equates to an afterlife of some sort of eternal punishment. They do not have a choice, from their perspective. Yet they sympathized with Humanity deep down.

Rebelling would dam their civilization as they would stop receiving technology and moral, religions and philosophical guidance from the Prophets. They would also be damming their entire race to death. They have families too you know?

Posted by: Naked Crook
What does this say about a society that holds honor in such high regard? It says that as a society, the Elites are baseless, and they are nothing more than turncoats to the most convenient ally. It means they are jerks...and jerks make good bad guys.

Ironic, this point is. They value honor highly, and in the end they make the decision to help Humanity rather than let them fall to the Flood. Humanity was not a convenient ally, more of a tax on their resources to try to save, yet they still did so.

Posted by: Naked Crook
I stick to my original thesis on how Brutes would have made better allies in terms of story structure.

Haven't read the books, so yet again you have missed the point that the Brutes have utterly no respect for Humans whatsoever. They butchered the colony of Harvest, the ripped to shreds and devoured a group of Humans on a remote outpost colony for amusement, whilst he was still alive. They kept the prisoners in conditions that rats would not be found dead in. They did not hesitate to butcher Humans, and in all cases worse than Elites did.

Stop playing the moral absolutism card and try to see that there are two sides to this.

  • 02.23.2011 8:00 PM PDT
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Anton...Right now...I am really tired...and I will respond to this tomorrow...that is a lot to read right now...but...I will say this.

As per your last point:

This Brute had some respect for some aspect of humanity at least...so you cannot say ALL of them didn't

  • 02.23.2011 8:58 PM PDT

Any thoughts?

I disagree with the Elites, they give a sense of diversity through the ranks, as well as Grunts. You obviously must not like variety if you believe they look horrible, maybe the toxic waste is in YOUR head.

These Brutes, they were Brutes stationed in the cities to take out any civilians, no point in armor with few resistance. It was said that heavy brutes were stationed on the front lines with power armor similar to that of Halo 3. The brutes you fought were simply "light" brutes. Brute Hero's, in which look completely awesome.

They have shields, along with full body armor, that may give you an idea of what the front lines brutes looked like. You are judging a clan that had very few armor and no hair. Judge those with Hair, Judge those with armor, even thought you don't see them.

Judge the Brute hero, tell me, what are his faults? He has a beard, he has armor, he has shields, what more do you want out of a brute?

Check your messages by the way.

[Edited on 02.23.2011 9:05 PM PST]

  • 02.23.2011 9:05 PM PDT

I like to play Devil's Advocate

Well, the chieftain still has the Fabio lips....and a cone head if you shoot the headress off

  • 02.23.2011 10:23 PM PDT

Naked, I am taking Antons side here, he obviously, along with me, read the books, you have not, you are judging Brutes on the sheer games when you have not learned of their savage and dis-respectable ways that were not shown in the games to begin with. Brutes, all of them, were under a spell laid down by the Prophets.

They wanted to be the head of the Covenant since joining. Truth plotted with Tartarus on this plan in "First Strike". Halo 2 was all planned from the start aside from Regrets death. Regret died due to Truth's selfishness. Mercy died due to Truth ignorance(And Brutes failure to stop the flood) If Mercy were to have made it on the Phantom with Truth, Truth would have killed him one way or the other.

Truth wanted to go alone, he could have easily have extracted Regret and have saved Mercy, that is fact, but didn't, he deluded the Brutes. Had Regret have lived, the guard would have changed due to "Failure to Guard a Prophet" with MC so close to Regret, another fact.

Brutes would be HORRIBLE as the Humans ally. Weapons are far less superior, armor is weaker, and overall had an ignorant but big fleet which could be taken down by 1/3 of it's size. Brutes are no fleet masters, they are more suited for land based assaults, which would not be very helpful if they were to join the Humans instead of the Elites.

Brutes devoted themselves to beginning the great Journey, so deluded that they would do anything to get it happen, I am extremely tired, I will continue tomorrow.

  • 02.23.2011 10:36 PM PDT
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I realize the mistake I have been making.

I had en epiphany...

I thought it out...and I realized...that in my previous posts, I have been analyzing the events like a normal and rational human being would.

Yes...this is it.

Let's forget the books for 2 seconds here and look at the story laid out by Halo Wars, Halo Reach, Halo 1, 2, ODST, and 3.

I HAVE played all of these games, contrary to many baseless assumptions otherwise, I have played the games. We know how they play out. We have all seen it.

I am going to continue my thesis about how the Elites were the WRONG choice for human allies on the premis that Brutes had more reason, in reality, to defect, than the Elites.

Here is why:

Remember, forget the book for 2 seconds. We are going to look at this as rational human beings...because we all know...nerd rage canon dogma...negates rational thought.

Alright, lets look at the Elites:

-They are akin to mass murderers and genocidal killers.
-They are directly responsible for all the killing.
-They oppress other races and bound them as underlings.
-They mercilessly enforce religion with killing.

In human context, the Elites are like SS officers, Slavers, and the Spanish Inquisition...all rolled into one. These are three of the darkest, most evil, aspects of human nature, all personified by the Elites.

Alright, lets look at the Brutes:

-They are carnivores, clearly.
-They devoutly follow a religion, which is oppressing them.
-They are a naive, childlike race. Adopted by another civilization.
-They currently parallel many human plights (read an earlier post to elaborate on this)

From what I can tell...Brutes are guilty of one crime, and that is devoutly following a religion. They are, essentially, religious people in the most basic state.

Furthermore, in Halo 2, they were the only race without armor. Now, before anyone says "clan this" and "rules that"...I want to make it clear, we are ignoring the books for now, and all that schlock that was written. The message my brain picked up when I first saw Brutes with no armor, was Brutes were at the bottom of the caste system. They were being oppressed. Even Grunts had armor. I think Brutes had a shoulder pad and a belt...and some of them had metal hats, but it certainly wasn't Covenant equipment and it certainly wasn't good equipment.

Another point, they had no liberties to exercise. While the Elites had representation on the council, the brutes didn't. They were not even represented in an official Government capacity. Sure, they had Tartarus to speak for them, but he had no observable political pull, that we could see, in Halo 2.

I sympathize with the Brutes, not because of what someone writing a book says, but because I recognize the reality of their plight, in spite of the lack of common sense and rational human thought that went into writing the story. They were not treated fairly. Any rational human being, who was playing the games, and not reading these books, would see that Elites, for all their evil connotations, were being glorified.

When I first played Halo 2, I was glad to see the Arbiter get pushed off a cliff. To me, that was someone who was oppressed, killing his slave master. And yes, I see Elites as slave masters, because they lead the military, they have the authority, and they carry out punishment that the slave owner orders.

But see...Halo 2 is where the story broke down. Its where common sense was abandoned. It is when the observable facts of the Elites and Brutes were ignored. Why would the humans ally with their executioners? Did anyone writing the story stop and think about this? If you say "Well...the Elites had a mutual enemy." I would say one of two things: either "Tyrannical mass murders cannot be trusted" (as seen by Germany betraying Russian in WW2...because I have drawn many parallels between the Elites and the Germans of the WW2 era) OR "The humans have nothing in common with the Elites, and commonality is a good thing to have when making friends"

See what I mean? Both brutes and Humans were being oppressed. They had something in common.

Common sense is key to story-writing, because its lets normal people, like you and I, accept the story and what is going on. If a story has no common sense, we become detached from what is going on. When you become detached, you begin to accept the schlock the illogical story begins to throw at you. You lose the ability to analyze what is going on, to see whats going on under the schlock, because, hey...you are accepting schlock at this point...you don't need to think for yourself.

These books are also guilty of force feeding us even more schlock, based on the schlock that was given to us in Halo 2. These books glorify the Elites in all their cruelty and malice while condemning Brutes because they devoutly follow a religion.

My appreciation for the Brutes comes from my own analysis of their plight and difficulties, primarily seen in Halo 2. I call the story schlock because...in reality...I would much rather ally myself with an oppressed religious person, instead of a genocidal mass murderer.

The only reason people say "Brutes would have been terrible allies" Is because they are regurgitating facts from schlock books. When the alliances were being drawn in Halo 2, had the story writers thought about what they had established up to that point, they would have realized that the Elites were the wrong choice for allies. The only reasons Brutes are "savage" and "violent" is because someone writing books wanted to depreciate the nature of the antagonists. They were easy targets. It was a cheap shot. Writers capitalized on the fact brutes look evil, and they were mean, and they ate people, they were the bad guys...they capitalized on this fact to depreciate them and dish out a fan service.

You people who quote books non-stop...you accept this, without thinking about why it was written this way.

I like Brutes because of my own reasoning, and not what other people want me to think. To be frank...I would be damned if I ever considered mass murderers acceptable allies.

  • 02.24.2011 8:56 AM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

That is sort of like saying quantum mechanics is bullshyte if you ignore the Bhor postulates. It is obviously not going to fit, but that fact is irrelevant because the reality is that the Bhor postulates do exist and they supplement quantum mechanics.

The books were written in conjunction with the games. TFoR was released first, then the first Halo game was released a few months/weeks after, and then it progressed similarly in that fashion. Nothing was based on Halo 2, both the books and Halo 2 came from the same source. In that source was all the reasoning for the way things turned out. Check: Halo Story Bible.

Questioning the writers as to why they picked one avenue rather than another is futile, as there are an infinite number of things that could have been thought up. It would be naive to think that the Brutes did not have a hand in Humanitys genocide. The only difference between them and the Elites is that the Elites have ships to command. The Prophets ordered the annihilation of Humanity. Both of them followed those orders because they were devout to a religion. The Brutes were just as well known to Humanity as the Elites were. There is no difference between them. They both do what the Prophets tell them to do.

To ask a question: Why the Brutes in particular? Why not the Grunts, or the Jackals? These are all races that are oppressed and put below the Elites. What is so special about the Brutes with respect to these other ones?

Cutting out the books is a cherry picking argument. Though it ultimately does no good. In the context of the games, the Brutes and the Elites were both exterminating Humanity under the orders of the Heirarchs. There is no difference between them. Coming from the same source as the books, it is revealed in the books the reason for things turning out the way they did. The writers obviously wanted the race that values honor above all else to end up doing the right thing. Making the Brutes join would be a fair development, but then why not the Jackals or Grunts? Why the Brutes?

This is totally subjective. You prefer the oppression theme, I prefer the atonement theme. You sound like a person completely incapable of forgiving and forgetting, and especially given the circumstances surrounding this event in the story (Due to religion and not personal measures) I find that a bit petty, no offense intended.

I'm out with this:

This is totally subjective.

  • 02.24.2011 11:34 AM PDT

Oh hey there

Posted by: petarded2
It's a metaphor for the 07s' lack of identity. too old to be newfa­g, yet too new to be oldfa­g, we wander b.net in search of a home, forever trying to be something we are not.

Posted by: DonVinzone1
There is a short story in Evolutions that talks about this. Don't remember the name, but its about a couple of humans being captured by Brutes and basically waiting for them to get eaten... and it follows the struggle between a pack of Brutes made up from different tribes"men"

I don't think it ever said there were bald tribes. I remember the story, not the name, but yeah I don't ever remember reading anything about bald brutes.

  • 02.24.2011 12:02 PM PDT
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@anton1792

Dude...I am gonna start by saying Quantum mechanics and story structure are two different things. Just stop...

Give me a minutes for my eyes to stop rolling.

I pick at the story writers because although there do exist many different possibilities, some story arcs are better than others. A story arc that makes logical sense is better than one that contradicts the very nature of the races you develop.

To say that everyone reads the books is nonsense. There are some Halo fans who have only played the games and I don't think it is unfair to say that the majority of Halo fans have not read the books.

Well...as to why brutes in particular...that's simple. They are more capable than Grunts and Jackals. How do I describe it? They can match Elites in more departments than a Grunt or jackal could. They would be top candidates.

Elites? Honorable? Debatable...VERY debatable. Honor is being trustworthy. Honor is social status. I don't see them as honorable. I really don't. There is nothing honorable about genocide. Remember how I said people glorify mass murder?

But...if you actually read my post, I ripped down the entire story, and blamed everything on the story writers, not just the books.

Also...there is no way the Brutes were JUST as guilty of Genocide as the Elites. Another WW2 reference for you: At the end of WW2...it was the SS and Gestapo that were tried for war crimes, not the Wehrmacht (Also known as the Greencoats, the Germany Army) only the highest ranking officers in the top echelon were tried by proxy, and they were certainly not executed for their involvement. In fact, it has even been suggested that early in the campaign, the Wehrmacht even attempted a military assassination of their leadership.

The point is, you cannot say they were equally responsible. If the Elites had control of the Navy for 99% of the war, chances are...the Elites were guilty of at least 90% of the extermination...taking into account civilian and military casualties inflicted by infantry forces.

But...I clearly stated, and I want to make this clear, that the story writers contradicted themselves very heavily, and everything that spun off after Halo 2 (not necessarily prior to) has been contaminated by the very same schlock that plagued Halo 2's story.

Both races are well thought out, but I think Bungie got things confused.

[Edited on 02.24.2011 12:37 PM PST]

  • 02.24.2011 12:32 PM PDT

Posted by: dalcaeus
I think that from an artistic standpoint they didn't want to overshadow the return of the Elites.

Quite possible.

  • 02.24.2011 12:39 PM PDT

I'm making this short and simple Naked.

Brutes, had their minds deluded and wanted nothing but the great journey.

Elites, questioned the Prophets since the beginning of joining the Covenant with the Prophets, they hated that the prophets used and destroyed the holy relics of the Forerunner, they never liked the Prophets, there is a short story on a few Honor Guards that went into hiding before Chief made it to regret, thus why you don't see so many.

The Brutes would never have converted, they wanted to stick to the plan because they were brainwashed by the Prophets lies. Elites, never believed in the promise of the Great Journey as Truth said in "Two Betrayals". You can't convert someone who is not going to change. Elites were always skeptical.

One other thing, Elites were the powerhouse of the Covenant, without them the Covenant isn't much of a powerful force anymore. Thus why the Covenant seemed to be fairly easy to take down afterwards. They lost their pride and honor by removing the Elites.

There you are, short and simple.

[Edited on 02.24.2011 4:11 PM PST]

  • 02.24.2011 4:10 PM PDT
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Posted by: mojeda101
I'm making this short and simple Naked.

Brutes, had their minds deluded and wanted nothing but the great journey.

Elites, questioned the Prophets since the beginning of joining the Covenant with the Prophets, they hated that the prophets used and destroyed the holy relics of the Forerunner, they never liked the Prophets, there is a short story on a few Honor Guards that went into hiding before Chief made it to regret, thus why you don't see so many.

The Brutes would never have converted, they wanted to stick to the plan because they were brainwashed by the Prophets lies. Elites, never believed in the promise of the Great Journey as Truth said in "Two Betrayals". You can't convert someone who is not going to change. Elites were always skeptical.

One other thing, Elites were the powerhouse of the Covenant, without them the Covenant isn't much of a powerful force anymore. Thus why the Covenant seemed to be fairly easy to take down afterwards. They lost their pride and honor by removing the Elites.

There you are, short and simple.


This I do know.

But my point is the competence of the story writers basically taking the cheap way out in writing a society for the Brutes and nobody ever second guessing it.

  • 02.24.2011 5:32 PM PDT

GOOD LORD!!!! I just got through reading all that, and my head hurts from all the face-palming/desking/etc.

Fight good the fight Anton, I'll try to get your back on this subject.

Crook, while you use plenty of logic, all of your arguments fall flat on their face for ignoring the books, they are just as much a valid part of the story as the games are, and both use the Halo Story Bible, which is written by BUNGIE. It's not something by some average Joe-schmo who knows next to nothing about the Haloverse.

The Brutes are a thousand times worse than the Elites, there is a reason why their name is BRUTE!!!! The Brutes are little more than savages, and when left to their own devices will slaughter each other without a second's thought. The pretty much bombed themselves back into the stone age with nuclear war. And every clan has a different view of things such as armor and shaving. In Halo 2 we only saw the Brutes under Tartarus clan. And the clans can't stand each other, the Covenant, and higher authorities who would not put up with very much in-fighting between the clans, is all that was holding them together in the Halo story. Once the Prophets were dead and the Covenant effectively broken up, they fell to fighting each other for power and dominance and to exterminate rival clans.

The Brutes are the societal equals to Elites in every manner save a seat on the Council. So your argument that only the Elites are genocidal maniacs falls flat on its face, the Brutes had just as much of a role in the genocide against Humanity as the Elites did. And also, contrary to what you seem to think, and to use your WWII analogy, most of the Elites would be the same as the common soldiers of the Wehrmacht, and ultimately, it is the Prophets who hold supreme control of the Covenant and are the only ones who can be viewed like the Nahtzee High Command.

And the Brutes would never even think about leaving the Covenant, they are blinded by their devotion to the Great Journey and the Prophets. The Elites have always questioned the Great Journey and sought answers to their questions, they were not content with the status quo. And it was not a temper tantrum, it was a matter of honoring the agreement between them and the Prophets at the founding of the Covenant. The Prophets broke contract and the Elites were saying this is not right, and then the Elites only declared war and left the Covenant when Truth and Mercy ordered the genocide of the Elites.

It seems to me like you want the Brutes to be exactly what they're not, fluffly little huggable, misguided teddy-bear children who are under oppressive rule. The Brutes are not meant to be sympathized with at all, they are complete savages who would devour their own mothers as soon as look at them.

[Edited on 02.24.2011 8:04 PM PST]

  • 02.24.2011 7:06 PM PDT

Here Here

  • 02.24.2011 8:46 PM PDT
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Too bad you missed the point of my post. I am critiquing the writers...

Again...the only the reason the brutes are like this...is because the story writers got lazy. They made the A-typical bad guy and used cheap story mechanics to pull it off.

Chances are, the Brutes would have been much better had the writers put effort into writing them.

  • 02.24.2011 8:58 PM PDT


Posted by: Naked Crook
Listen to me very carefully DonVinzone1...I am going to say this as simply as I can...you are clearly not blessed with normal human cognitive abilities.

Just to correct your stupidity...Halo Reach is not Canon as it has already messed with the continuity of an Established game (Halo CE). Although I do not read those books or watch those cartoons, people seem to think they are canon as well.

So if you say EVERYTHING is Canon, in spite of constant contradictions between Halo Reach, and Material that came BEFORE it (that for the record, all fit together nicely BEFORE Halo Reach came along)...then how is two versions of the same event canon in a single universe?

Its like saying "Germany Won WW2 and the Allies won WW2" or "Xbox 360 brand name was released before the PS3 brand name and the PS3 brand name was released before the Xbox 360 brand name" or even "1 + 1 = 2 and 1 + 1 = 3". these contradictions do not make sense and they are equal to Halo Reach in the fallacy sense. Only one thing can be true, and the opposite is false.

Like I said, I don't read those books or watch those cartoons...but other people do. If the vast majority of people realize the contradiction in the chronological history, people are going to remove something from Canon, whether the studios like it or not. It boils down to the fan base. More often than not, the fans are more knowledgeable than these so-called designers.

Halo Reach has overridden/corrupted the Canon of 4 previous games and a multitude of books. The entire universe will not make way for this flawed game. Halo Reach does not have that much weight.

If Halo Reach was some...other event...some other battle never detailed, something new to the universe, then it could be accepted as Canon as it would have negligible-to-no impact on the history. However, this is not the case.

It is widely known that the Halo Reach game is totally flawed historically, and thus, all of the game content, by extension, is non-canon and flawed. This is a common practice in our society to depreciate information/content/testimony/produce/events coming from a spoiled source. Halo Reach is like a clinically insane individual, and the content of Halo Reach is its testimony to events. Any rational human being just might pause and question the authenticity.

Whether you like it or not, you are wrong, and I am right.

your logic is flawed.

Halo Reach Brutes (also known as the Whoopnars) are not Canon.

---

also yes...Halo legends gave me Cancer and I never watched it. How? Let's put it this way...you don't need to smoke a day in your life to get lung cancer, but proximity to it can be just as bad.

---

I apologize for going off topic with that example but I felt it was necessary.

Okay, give me one example of continuity errors in Reach. I'm not trying to start a debate about this, I just don't have the time to follow every event in a universe that doesn't exist. I personally liked the brutes in H3 and thought the Whoopnars were poor recreations (I killed a cheiftian with a pistol), and (this is not directed at anyone in particular) you can give me all the reasons you want, the Whoopnars still sucked. At first, I didn't even recognize the brutes, and probably wouldn't have until I heard someone identify them as such.

P.S.
Sorry if my language comes off as belligerent, it's just how I write.

  • 02.24.2011 9:07 PM PDT
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Posted by: ahaynes1990

Okay, give me one example of continuity errors in Reach. I'm not trying to start a debate about this, I just don't have the time to follow every event in a universe that doesn't exist. I personally liked the brutes in H3 and thought the Whoopnars were poor recreations (I killed a cheiftian with a pistol), and (this is not directed at anyone in particular) you can give me all the reasons you want, the Whoopnars still sucked. At first, I didn't even recognize the brutes, and probably wouldn't have until I heard someone identify them as such.

P.S.
Sorry if my language comes off as belligerent, it's just how I write.


There is a whole thread on this. Check the first page. There are several continuity errors.

  • 02.24.2011 9:08 PM PDT

I will list a few canon problems on the continuation.

Reach attacked on July 24, 2552 - Halo: Reach(Game)
Reach attacked August 30, 2552 - ALL the books

Simple as that.

  • 02.24.2011 9:10 PM PDT


Posted by: ahaynes1990

Posted by: Naked Crook
Listen to me very carefully DonVinzone1...I am going to say this as simply as I can...you are clearly not blessed with normal human cognitive abilities.

Just to correct your stupidity...Halo Reach is not Canon as it has already messed with the continuity of an Established game (Halo CE). Although I do not read those books or watch those cartoons, people seem to think they are canon as well.

So if you say EVERYTHING is Canon, in spite of constant contradictions between Halo Reach, and Material that came BEFORE it (that for the record, all fit together nicely BEFORE Halo Reach came along)...then how is two versions of the same event canon in a single universe?

Its like saying "Germany Won WW2 and the Allies won WW2" or "Xbox 360 brand name was released before the PS3 brand name and the PS3 brand name was released before the Xbox 360 brand name" or even "1 + 1 = 2 and 1 + 1 = 3". these contradictions do not make sense and they are equal to Halo Reach in the fallacy sense. Only one thing can be true, and the opposite is false.

Like I said, I don't read those books or watch those cartoons...but other people do. If the vast majority of people realize the contradiction in the chronological history, people are going to remove something from Canon, whether the studios like it or not. It boils down to the fan base. More often than not, the fans are more knowledgeable than these so-called designers.

Halo Reach has overridden/corrupted the Canon of 4 previous games and a multitude of books. The entire universe will not make way for this flawed game. Halo Reach does not have that much weight.

If Halo Reach was some...other event...some other battle never detailed, something new to the universe, then it could be accepted as Canon as it would have negligible-to-no impact on the history. However, this is not the case.

It is widely known that the Halo Reach game is totally flawed historically, and thus, all of the game content, by extension, is non-canon and flawed. This is a common practice in our society to depreciate information/content/testimony/produce/events coming from a spoiled source. Halo Reach is like a clinically insane individual, and the content of Halo Reach is its testimony to events. Any rational human being just might pause and question the authenticity.

Whether you like it or not, you are wrong, and I am right.

your logic is flawed.

Halo Reach Brutes (also known as the Whoopnars) are not Canon.

---

also yes...Halo legends gave me Cancer and I never watched it. How? Let's put it this way...you don't need to smoke a day in your life to get lung cancer, but proximity to it can be just as bad.

---

I apologize for going off topic with that example but I felt it was necessary.

Okay, give me one example of continuity errors in Reach. I'm not trying to start a debate about this, I just don't have the time to follow every event in a universe that doesn't exist. I personally liked the brutes in H3 and thought the Whoopnars were poor recreations (I killed a cheiftian with a pistol), and (this is not directed at anyone in particular) you can give me all the reasons you want, the Whoopnars still sucked. At first, I didn't even recognize the brutes, and probably wouldn't have until I heard someone identify them as such.

P.S.
Sorry if my language comes off as belligerent, it's just how I write.


Even though I always argue that Reach did not break canon, I will admit that some things have been changed a bit, things are nowhere near as bad as people claim they are. The only books even remotely affected by the changed Reach introduced to the story are the tail end of "The Fall of Reach" and a little of "First Strike"'s beginning. A lot of the so called mistakes though are fixed in Halsey's Journal, it also fixes some of the pesky issues that have been pervading the Halo verse for a while now, such as the number of Spartans.

And it has done nothing at all to change the games, any claim of such is absurd and gross exaggeration. The games and Reach coexist completely perfectly, connecting Reach to the books is where people will start to murder each other.

  • 02.24.2011 9:15 PM PDT


Posted by: Naked Crook
Too bad you missed the point of my post. I am critiquing the writers...

Again...the only the reason the brutes are like this...is because the story writers got lazy. They made the A-typical bad guy and used cheap story mechanics to pull it off.

Chances are, the Brutes would have been much better had the writers put effort into writing them.


Are you addressing this to me or someone else?

And despite what you claim, the Brutes were going to be the way they are from their inception. The Brutes have just as much effort put into them as all the other Covenant species, they are just much more savage, that is their character, it is not the generic bad guy portrayal at all, no more than the Prophets species is portrayed as the typical villain.

  • 02.24.2011 9:23 PM PDT


Posted by: Naked Crook
Posted by: Metroidman42
Dirty the name of Brutes? Your -blam!-ing me right? they eat people!

Where the hell have you been since Halo 2?! Brutes are -blam!-


Who cares if they eat people. That adds a dimension to them as believable enemies. This is called character development, something that is overlooked by most designers/producers/and young people. You have more reason to believe they are bad if they eat people. It makes them unique and interesting. Name me one other Covenant race that eats people?


O.K., I'll agree with you about character development. It does add dimension to the brutes. But when you think Brute, your supposed to think evil, angry, dirty, killing machine. So really, You wouldn't dirty the name of Brutes by associating them with Whoopnars so much as cleaning the name a bit.

You diss the Brutes? You sound like someone who idolizes the Elites...

And what is so bad about Elites. They are badasses. I would rather have soldier that could think of a way to solve a situation other than just "smash it". The Elites are a noble race. They have some concept of honor and dignity. What do the Brutes do? They kill they're family and do it for power. They love the bloodshed (which also adds dimension to their character), where the Elites fight for honor. Also, Elites have skill. Any idiot with half a brain could swing a big ass hammer that warps gravity around the end, but it takes someone with skill to use a blade effectively. Put simply, Elites are surgical instruments, and Brutes are baseball bats.

At least brutes can perform simply physical tasks like:

-heavy lifting
-climbing ladders
-learning languages

That's right. Elites have malformed legs, no tongues, and are considerably weaker in terms of Physical strength than a Brute is. In hand to hand combat, an Elite will be dismembered before it can say Wort. With all these disabilities, every Elite should be equipped with one of these


Actually, I am more inclined to believe that an Elite would win a fist fight with a Brute. It isn't all about strength. The Brutes fight harder, not smarter, and the Elites would know just how to manipulate that to their advantage.

Some other person named Mega Loathe just said they like Reach Brutes? You like the fact they do not berserk? You like the fact they are dull, boring, and bland? You like enemies with flat characteristics? You sir, are boring, on a colossal level. You like one-dimensional enemies that do one thing...shoot. You like enemies that do not talk, that stand there, and fire a gun. If you wanna kill one-dimensional AI characters, go back to Nintendo 64. We live in an era of technology where it is expected that games produce some level of interest, intelligence, and depth to AI enemies in a FPS environment. You have low standards Mega Loathe...I suggest you raise them...fast. Nothing personal, I am just looking out for your best interests. This also goes for anyone who likes Reach Brutes.

I also liked the beserker mode. It made it a challenge when one of them ran at me. But, just because I can, I am going to make one more point on why the Elites are better. When a Brute with no armor charges at you, it makes a shotgun round to the face a really easy cure. Of course, the Elites in Reach started doing that too, but still. As for looking out for his best interest, that is just plain patronization.

If you hate Brutes, fine. If you like Reach Brutes, we have a problem...and the problem is you.

There is no problem with liking Reach Brutes. It just means you like an enemy that will sit there and take it like a common whore. Your words were just so condescending that I had to say something.

  • 02.24.2011 9:41 PM PDT


Posted by: Naked Crook

Posted by: ahaynes1990

Okay, give me one example of continuity errors in Reach. I'm not trying to start a debate about this, I just don't have the time to follow every event in a universe that doesn't exist. I personally liked the brutes in H3 and thought the Whoopnars were poor recreations (I killed a cheiftian with a pistol), and (this is not directed at anyone in particular) you can give me all the reasons you want, the Whoopnars still sucked. At first, I didn't even recognize the brutes, and probably wouldn't have until I heard someone identify them as such.

P.S.
Sorry if my language comes off as belligerent, it's just how I write.


There is a whole thread on this. Check the first page. There are several continuity errors.


Oh, Thanks.

  • 02.24.2011 9:42 PM PDT
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Posted by: ahaynes1990
But when you think Brute, your supposed to think evil, angry, dirty, killing machine.


This is no excuse for lazy and A-typical development on the part of the writers.

Posted by: ahaynes1990
Actually, I am more inclined to believe that an Elite would win a fist fight with a Brute. It isn't all about strength. The Brutes fight harder, not smarter, and the Elites would know just how to manipulate that to their advantage.


Sgt. Forge beat an Elite in physical combat. If he can, a Brute easily could in any number of ways, given their physical strength.

But...for all intents and purposes...you can call the Elites Noble...but I find nothing noble about mass murder...and deviancy in their mating practices. Yeah...I recently learned that "Aristocrats" are allowed to "rock it" with any female they want. An Aristocrat could walk to his neighbors house and steal his mate...all in the name of "sword genes"

What is an Aristocrat or Aristocracy?

"Aristocracy is a form of government in which a few of the most prominent citizens rule."

Basically...the best your society has to offer.

Theoretically, nothing is stopping an Aristocrat from mating with his own mother, aunt, niece, or daughter if he wanted to. This could actually be done with or without his knowledge. If the best Elite society can show me is deviancy in their mating practices? What am I supposed to say?

"Oh...you are such enlightened and sophisticated perverts"

Yep...Elites...making perversion cool since the 9th Age of Reclamation.

What is wrong with you people? Why do people glorify mass murder and strange mating behavior? Not only do the Elites actively degrade women, and other forms of life, they call themselves noble and honorable while they do it...and you people are like "We agree"...like you are robots just regurgitating schlock given to by substandard writers.

Here is a fact: Enlightened races can be just as brutal as primitive ones. Why has nobody admitted this? Not a single person who has defended the Elites has admitted to a single failing of their society, but are very quick to tear down what the Brutes are. This is a very disgusting double standard.

If only we could all be like the Elites, where we practice a sophisticated form of barbarism, and be considered the greatest thing on two legs.

[Edited on 02.25.2011 12:51 AM PST]

  • 02.24.2011 10:45 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Naked Crook does have a point here guys. I often wonder myself what exactly goes on in the heads of these people who idolise the Elites. And I am not talking about the average Elite fans, but rather these people who have it on borderline misanthropy.

Need to remember though dude, they are a race of individuals. Individuals. Some are honorable and hold themselves to high standards, and others are simply charlatans, using religion as the loophole in their honor code to do whatever they please and practice pure cruelty. The cause for the genocide was religion though, which was imposing the retarded eternal punishment thing on them if they did not comply.

Which means that it remains to be seen what they think/do after Halo 3 now that they have no belief. If they continue to think lowly of other races then their nobility is load of shyte. Which is why I find the idea of glassing Doisac after Halo 3 to be retarded. If the writers want to portray the Elites as honorable, then they would not do that. If they do then they are made out to be nothing but baseless hypocrites.

and deviancy in their mating practices.
Morals are relative. What we consider wierd is what we consider to be weird. It would be the same if an alien race were to look at us. They may find some of our concepts to be weird.

The Brutes are probably as equally weird as the Elites. It is tradition for the Brutes to commit patricide to attain pack leader status once they feel ready.

  • 02.25.2011 10:11 AM PDT