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This topic has moved here: Subject: Halo: Reach Brutes....What happened?
  • Subject: Halo: Reach Brutes....What happened?
Subject: Halo: Reach Brutes....What happened?

Your Covenant Elite name is
Anro 'Erbusee.

And your rank is
Gold.

Yes i agree the Brutes on reach are less formidable then in halo 2,3,ODST But then again as I'm sure someone might have touched base on the timelines

remember Reach is first not last, It is just my opinion that "MAYBE" they became more feral as the time progressed, maybe even received better training or different breeding

Needless to say i do miss the "superbrute" leap from across the map with a hammer that ways probably as much as car or small truck.

  • 02.28.2011 1:58 AM PDT

This makes me wonder...were there any females in the covenant?

Anyways, I missed the brutes from Halo 3/Odst, but seeing how they are from different clan, it is understandable, color, fur, head(maybe I guess), and height.

Halo 3 + Halo 2 brute - sponge = bad-blam-
But when melee fighting one, them should do a surprise back swing very quickly sometimes. (or whatever it take for them to be a better opponent.)
I wish you could play as one though...

Posted by: a bread loaf
Yes i agree the Brutes on reach are less formidable then in halo 2,3,ODST But then again as I'm sure someone might have touched base on the timelines

remember Reach is first not last, It is just my opinion that "MAYBE" they became more feral as the time progressed, maybe even received better training or different breeding

Needless to say i do miss the "superbrute" leap from across the map with a hammer that ways probably as much as car or small truck.


Hmm...maybe, maybe once they saw Halo 1 got destroyed, the profits let them go wild, or trained them differently?

  • 02.28.2011 7:41 AM PDT


Posted by: Naked Crook
It says on Halopedian that some of them broke off from the Covenant while others fought with each other...possibly for control or leadership.

They stay loyal to the san shyumm. If you've read that short story in halo evolutions about the confession of the san shyumm trapped in high charity during the invasion of the flood. He states the best chance of each species, saying the would stay loyal to the san shyumm because of their technology the unggoy would follow those who were strong, the kig-yar would follow profit, the Yanme'e would follow whoever controlled them, an the Mgalekgolo would go into hiding, possibly even surviving the flood.

  • 02.28.2011 10:21 AM PDT
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Still...I have difficulty accepting clans because if there was a Chieftain of the Brutes, it implies a one world government. In this event, the clans would lose steam and give-way to unity. I doubt there is still clan distinctions.

But yes, Brutes in Halo Reach were pretty laughable. Reach ruined everything...thankfully...Reach is not Canon.

Halo3/ODST Brutes were the best in both appearance and behavior. Aside from a few tweaks that could have been done...I thought they were the coolest thing since sliced bread as far as enemies go. They were also kinda funny to fight. Some of their taunts made me laugh.

Unfortunately...I stopped laughing at WORT a long time ago...

  • 02.28.2011 10:58 AM PDT

Posted By: Naked Crook
Yes...I know about Maccabeus having a ship. But that ship was also stripped down. It didn't even have an engineer. How can a so severly under-equipped vessel compete with a fully armed one in terms of killing power?

I can say, that up until the Schism, a majority of the Covenant was controlled by Elites. This is a numbers a game. It is an established precedent that Brutes (almost) never had Engineers on their ships and they were given undermanned and under equipped ships as seen by the Maccabeus case. We don't know exact numbers...but...I found this on Halopedia

Throughout the majority of the Covenant Civil War or commonly known as the "Great Schism," (as referred to by the Covenant Separatists) the Covenant Military was violently splintered between the Covenant Loyalists, who continued to believe in the Prophet's wisdom and the Covenant Separatists, who followed the Arbiter against them. As the battle raged, the High Prophet of Truth formally transferred command of the Covenant Navy to the Jiralhanae, a position once exclusively held by the Sangheili. The Covenant Separatists wiped out the primary Loyalist fleet at the Battle of Installation 00.


Oh yeah, not having an Engineer is totally stripped down, of course, how could I have ever missed that /sarcasm.

The Elites were the Fleetmasters and such, but that doesn't say anything at all about Shipmasters and how many of the different species besides Elites held that rank. The Brutes were the societal equals of Elites, it was like the early English Parliament, the member of parliament held the exact same power as the nobles not in the governing body, the only difference being that the member of Parliament had a direct input into the running of their nation. This is the same situation with the Brutes and Elites, the only difference between them is that some of the Elites had seats on the Council while the Brutes did not, and other than that they were equals.

All your quote says is that the positions of commanding the whole of the Covenant Navy was only held by the Elites. And the Brutes obviously had to have loads of ships, and not sub-par ones either, as you see a lot of evidence of ship-to-ship combat in the background on Halo 2, sure some of those were probably commandeered ships of the Elites, but to have that big a battle when Chief first arrives the Brutes had to have a lot of the ships in High Charity's escort fleet. All your quote sounds like to me is that Truth revoked the Elite's position as the supreme commanders and gave it to the Brutes.

Now...you call Brutes savage...ok...

They torture people? Alright...

We know this guy tortured James Ackerson for some reason.

We can surmise Gravemind tortured Cortana in some way...as Cortana looked weird...and she was acting weird...possible mental stress.

The Elites were also guilty of torture:

Keyes was taken aboard the Co venant CCS-Class Battlecruiser, the Truth and Reconciliation. There, he was interrogated, tortured, and held prisoner until the Master Chief, the ODSTs, and a group of Marines were able to rescue him with the help of Cortana.

I didn't see any brutes on the Truth and Reconciliation...did you?

Then there was Reth

When Reth was believed to be a rebel, 'Vadamee, Zhar, Saal, and Veer kidnapped him from The Redoubt for information. Saal then tortured him, refusing to believe that he was following the orders of the Hierarchs since they were under conflicting orders.

and the Elites do not torture people?

Did you know you're stupid?

Look at poor Noble 6. Although I am glad he is now feeding the worms, I am pretty sure he was shot 40 times, ganged up on by several Elites, and stabbed several times. This looked pretty painful.

In Halo 3...in the first level, a Marine was being held captive by a Brute. It was that part where the brute was standing on a log, and he was holding the marine by the neck. The brute killed the Marine with a single punch to the face. Now...I am not a medical doctor, nor am I an expert in medical science...but it is my understanding that if you are hit hard enough in the face, it can break the noes cartilage. If the cartilage is pushed into the brain, you are instantly, and painlessly, killed. I surmise this happened to the Marine.

From what I can tell...Brutes seem more merciful than Elites...


What does the Gravemind have to do with our discussion, even if he did torture Cortana?

The Flood also contradicts other pieces of canon, such as stating that the Covenant don't take prisoners, the appearance of the ODSTs, the ODSTs' droppods, the Elite executing Keyes whole group when Keyes' has marines and other guys imprisoned with him, and of course in the same section the Elite using a Human weapon to execute them, until the Schism Elites would never touch Human weaponry, they even looked on it with scorn in Halo 2 when they found out the Brutes were hording it. I don't think we can take word of the Flood on this since the author did not seem to have paid attention to the lore of Halo, and besides, what makes an enemy seem scarier, letting you rot in a cell, or torturing you half to death? I don't think we can regard the Flood as accurate.

As far as they knew, Reth was a Heretic, betraying his religion and his nation, this is an entirely different scenario. At point in time, when the Elites still believed in the Covenant version of the Great Journey they would not show any mercy to Herecy, regardless of how honorable they are the rest of the time.

If some guy is killing all of your men and no matter what you do just wont die, of course you'll try to kill them, especially if it's one of the Demons. I never saw Six get stabbed once, she kept shooting/kicking them back when they got close, and the screen goes black when we see the Zealot ignite his sword, so Six was only stabbed once in that encounter, by the Zealot at the end, at least that's what we're led to believe.

The Brute throws him, he doesn't punch him, and it sounded to me, from the way Nathan Fillion was delivering the line, that he was in pain, IE the Brute had already roughed him up.

And from what I can tell you seem to be just as blind as the Brutes...

  • 02.28.2011 12:13 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: OrderedComa
and of course in the same section the Elite using a Human weapon to execute them, until the Schism Elites would never touch Human weaponry, they even looked on it with scorn in Halo 2 when they found out the Brutes were hording it.

Where did the idea of the use of Human weaponry being heresy come from?

  • 02.28.2011 12:31 PM PDT


Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: OrderedComa
and of course in the same section the Elite using a Human weapon to execute them, until the Schism Elites would never touch Human weaponry, they even looked on it with scorn in Halo 2 when they found out the Brutes were hording it.

Where did the idea of the use of Human weaponry being heresy come from?


I believe it's from Ghosts of Onyx, where it says that Covie would rather die if their weapons was out of battery/ammo than pick up a fully loaded human weapon sitting right next to them.

  • 02.28.2011 12:53 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: OrderedComa
Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: OrderedComa
and of course in the same section the Elite using a Human weapon to execute them, until the Schism Elites would never touch Human weaponry, they even looked on it with scorn in Halo 2 when they found out the Brutes were hording it.

Where did the idea of the use of Human weaponry being heresy come from?


I believe it's from Ghosts of Onyx, where it says that Covie would rather die if their weapons was out of battery/ammo than pick up a fully loaded human weapon sitting right next to them.

Can you remember what page though? I am beginning to think that this is somewhat of a myth.

Covenant weapons are always superior, but when faced with a choice of wielding no weapon or a Human weapon, our forces should acquire the nearest weapon at hand - even if Human.
That is from the Halo 2 limited edition manual, written from Thel 'Vadamee's point of view.

  • 02.28.2011 1:20 PM PDT


Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: OrderedComa
Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: OrderedComa
and of course in the same section the Elite using a Human weapon to execute them, until the Schism Elites would never touch Human weaponry, they even looked on it with scorn in Halo 2 when they found out the Brutes were hording it.

Where did the idea of the use of Human weaponry being heresy come from?


I believe it's from Ghosts of Onyx, where it says that Covie would rather die if their weapons was out of battery/ammo than pick up a fully loaded human weapon sitting right next to them.

Can you remember what page though? I am beginning to think that this is somewhat of a myth.

Covenant weapons are always superior, but when faced with a choice of wielding no weapon or a Human weapon, our forces should acquire the nearest weapon at hand - even if Human.
That is from the Halo 2 limited edition manual, written from Thel 'Vadamee's point of view.


No, I can't remember specifically what page it's on, but I believe it was in the prologue during Beta Company's suicide op.

I would be inclined to believe the book holds a little more weight, because game manuals and the like fall into the lowest tier of canon, I suppose it could be an individual preference over how strictly the Covenant follow that rule. And Thel would be giving his advice near Halo 2? In any case, it still doesn't make sense why the Elite in the Flood would ignore his own weapons and snatch up a Magnum instead...actually that makes sense, since the CE Magnum is essentially God's Own Pistol, I'd pick one up if I saw it lying around XD

  • 02.28.2011 4:31 PM PDT

I like to play Devil's Advocate

Let's get back on topic


Another thing I've noticed in Reach brutes....is that their noses are a LOT smaller

http://www.halopedian.com/File:BruteH3HReach.jpg

  • 02.28.2011 10:17 PM PDT
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Sorry I have not replied in a few days...I have been buried in personal work...

Anyway...I read some pretty interesting stuff.

Posted by: OrderedComa
Oh yeah, not having an Engineer is totally stripped down, of course, how could I have ever missed that /sarcasm.


Not having an engineer can be quite debilitating to a ship. Consider the fact that Engineers are...WAY...WAY...WAY more intelligent and productive than everything else in the Covenant. The ability to quickly repair something in a matter of seconds is a pretty big advantage. I would take an engineer over 1000 drones any day! Consider the following:

Let's say we were in a competition...say...computing Pi to the 1000th digit. My team consisted of super computers and your team consisted of honeybees. Which one of us will reach that 1000th digit first? See you at the finish line...sometime.

My point is...having an engineer is very advantageous.

Posted by: OrderedComa
The Elites were the Fleetmasters and such, but that doesn't say anything at all about Shipmasters and how many of the different species besides Elites held that rank. The Brutes were the societal equals of Elites


Why do you keep saying this? This is not the issue at hand! I dont care if they were/were not societal equals. This is not the issue. The issue is the fact that the Elites are the GREATER OF TWO EVILS...and hence they are worse than the Brutes.

You continue to dispute that Elites were worse than Brutes, despite the overwhelming evidence suggesting otherwise. Elites had better ships, and they were better equipped and better manned. This means the Elites have more killing power.

But you know...lets take a second to end this equality nonsense once and for all. Sure...lets talk about equality.

So the Elites and Brutes are equal hmm? The Elites have representation per capita in The Government that is the Covenant. The Brutes...do not.

guess what...

this is not equality.

When one race has no representation in Government and another race does...this precludes the possibility of equality. This is civil rights 101...equal representation in Government.

They are not societal equals. There is a caste system...and caste systems are incompatible with equality.

There was a time in human history when only Caucasian Males were allowed to hold public office. This is the very definition of INEQUALITY. Much like Brutes do not hold office or a seat on the Council, this is inequality.

I am going to guess you have never heard of the Civil Rights Movement, or the Suffragette Movement...

Posted by: OrderedComa
What does the Gravemind have to do with our discussion, even if he did torture Cortana?

The Flood also contradicts other pieces of canon, such as stating that the Covenant don't take prisoners, the appearance of the ODSTs, the ODSTs' droppods, the Elite executing Keyes whole group when Keyes' has marines and other guys imprisoned with him, and of course in the same section the Elite using a Human weapon to execute them


I brought up the Gravemind example to show that even potted planets can be vicious monsters that torture people. The Elites torture, the Brutes torture, potted plants torture, and humans torture.

Just because the events of the flood have a minor inconsistency with how many Marines were with Keyes, does not mean you can dismiss ALL of it as non-canon. Just because its counter-productive to your argument gives you no right to dismiss it. So a few marines were out of place when comparing the books to the game...at least its not like Reach that caused a time paradox.

Posted by: OrderedComa
As far as they knew, Reth was a Heretic, betraying his religion and his nation, this is an entirely different scenario. At point in time, when the Elites still believed in the Covenant version of the Great Journey they would not show any mercy to Herecy, regardless of how honorable they are the rest of the time.


I was told Elites were always skeptical of the promise of the Great Journey, and thus religion in general. So they are skeptical when they are kicked out as honor guards, but not when they have the chance to torture a space turkey.

You are either justifying torture in the name of religion, or you are contradicting established lore. Which is it? It can't be both.

Posted by: OrderedComa
I never saw Six get stabbed once, she kept shooting/kicking them back when they got close, and the screen goes black when we see the Zealot ignite his sword, so Six was only stabbed once in that encounter


Yes...because I am sure that Zealot was showing Six, his best friend in the whole wide world, how funky his laser sword was. I am sure that's it.

If Noble Six has a grave, he would be spinning in it.

Posted by: OrderedComa
The Brute throws him, he doesn't punch him, and it sounded to me, from the way Nathan Fillion was delivering the line, that he was in pain, IE the Brute had already roughed him up.


WRONG!!!!

The Brute roars in the Marine's face, then the Brute punches the marine in the face (killing him), and then the brute throws him and laughs.

Posted by: OrderedComa
And from what I can tell you seem to be just as blind as the Brutes...


And you have the nerve to call me blind, when you cannot even tell the different between a punch and a throw.

You are, without a doubt, the dumbest person alive. You have reached a new low, a low that I have never, in my wildest dreams, would ever think could be reached.

Also OrderedComa...you say that the Elites would never use humans weapons? To quote Anton, who was speaking in relation to Elites.

Posted by: Anton1792
They are a race of individuals. Individuals. Some are honorable and hold themselves to high standards, and others are simply charlatans, using religion as the loophole in their honor code to do whatever they please and practice pure cruelty


With that said, some Elites might not care about using human weapons.

[Edited on 03.02.2011 7:21 PM PST]

  • 03.02.2011 7:17 PM PDT

Not having an engineer can be quite debilitating to a ship. Consider the fact that Engineers are...WAY...WAY...WAY more intelligent and productive than everything else in the Covenant. The ability to quickly repair something in a matter of seconds is a pretty big advantage. I would take an engineer over 1000 drones any day! Consider the following:

Let's say we were in a competition...say...computing Pi to the 1000th digit. My team consisted of super computers and your team consisted of honeybees. Which one of us will reach that 1000th digit first? See you at the finish line...sometime.

My point is...having an engineer is very advantageous.


That is true, I agree almost completely, having even one Engineer would be more efficient than having a bunch of Drones, however lacking an Engineer is not stripped down, that is merely lacking one important asset, it's like a tank only having machine guns and no rocket launcher, would it still function? Yes, would it be as effective as a tank with both? No, but it would still do a number on the enemy infantry. The same thing applies here, Maccabeus ship was only lacking an Engineer, not enough to warrant being called "stripped down".

Why do you keep saying this? This is not the issue at hand! I dont care if they were/were not societal equals. This is not the issue. The issue is the fact that the Elites are the GREATER OF TWO EVILS...and hence they are worse than the Brutes.

You continue to dispute that Elites were worse than Brutes, despite the overwhelming evidence suggesting otherwise. Elites had better ships, and they were better equipped and better manned. This means the Elites have more killing power.

But you know...lets take a second to end this equality nonsense once and for all. Sure...lets talk about equality.

So the Elites and Brutes are equal hmm? The Elites have representation per capita in The Government that is the Covenant. The Brutes...do not.

guess what...

this is not equality.

When one race has no representation in Government and another race does...this precludes the possibility of equality. This is civil rights 101...equal representation in Government.

They are not societal equals. There is a caste system...and caste systems are incompatible with equality.

There was a time in human history when only Caucasian Males were allowed to hold public office. This is the very definition of INEQUALITY. Much like Brutes do not hold office or a seat on the Council, this is inequality.

I am going to guess you have never heard of the Civil Rights Movement, or the Suffragette Movement...


I have seen no evidence anywhere stating or implying that the Elites had better ships, other than the ONE instance of Maccabeus in Harvest, which is no where near enough to back up your claim, especially since Halo 2 indicates that they were on equal footing in regards to ships.

I said that they were completely equal OTHER THAN, just to make sure you got that I made it bold and extra clear you would be able to see it, the Brutes not holding a seat on the council, in every other regard they are completely equal, both have the same methods at their disposal, both have equal access to military assets, both hold some of the highest military stations, and both hold the highest station in the Covenant caste system aside from the Prophets.

I brought up the Gravemind example to show that even potted planets can be vicious monsters that torture people. The Elites torture, the Brutes torture, potted plants torture, and humans torture.

Just because the events of the flood have a minor inconsistency with how many Marines were with Keyes, does not mean you can dismiss ALL of it as non-canon. Just because its counter-productive to your argument gives you no right to dismiss it. So a few marines were out of place when comparing the books to the game...at least its not like Reach that caused a time paradox.


I was stating that because the Flood made many errors that what it states might not be canon, I didn't say the whole story was non-canon or that it should be thrown out, merely that what is said in it might not be fact, especially things we have no other evidence to support its claims.

Reach is a totally different scenario, the Flood was not written by creators of the series, Reach was. The Flood made errors, the supposed "inconsistencies" between Reach and TFoR only exist if you obstinately hold onto everything TFoR said as fact. What Reach did was retcon a few minor things, this is VASTLY different than getting your information wrong and making a large number of errors.

I was told Elites were always skeptical of the promise of the Great Journey, and thus religion in general. So they are skeptical when they are kicked out as honor guards, but not when they have the chance to torture a space turkey.

You are either justifying torture in the name of religion, or you are contradicting established lore. Which is it? It can't be both.


Told by whom? And being skeptical of the Great Journey does not equal skeptical of religion in general, it should be painfully obvious if you've read the books that the Elites are very deeply religious, they believed the Forerunners were gods even before they encountered the Prophets, and they still believe so.
I am not justifying it, I am merely stated that one will be harsher on a member of their religion or organization than they would be on one who is outside of it. And how is anything I said contradicting established canon? Nothing I said in my last pot to you contradicts it in any way.

Yes...because I am sure that Zealot was showing Six, his best friend in the whole wide world, how funky his laser sword was. I am sure that's it.

If Noble Six has a grave, he would be spinning in it.

WRONG!!!!

The Brute roars in the Marine's face, then the Brute punches the marine in the face (killing him), and then the brute throws him and laughs.


You are misreading what I stated, I said we do not see Six get stabbed at all in that cutscene or even see her die. The only time Six is stabbed, or we can infer such, is after that Zealot ignites his energy sword.

I am merely stating what i have seen, and I have not seen any punching, just throwing. I will got back and check it out, and if I am wrong I will admit it, but for now I stand by my statement.

And you have the nerve to call me blind, when you cannot even tell the different between a punch and a throw.

You are, without a doubt, the dumbest person alive. You have reached a new low, a low that I have never, in my wildest dreams, would ever think could be reached.

Also OrderedComa...you say that the Elites would never use humans weapons? To quote Anton, who was speaking in relation to Elites.


BAHAHAHA XD Oh gosh, you are an absolute scream XD

Did you even read the post where I was talking about their weaponry? I said the same thing you did, that they probably have individual standards for how much of a heresy it is, as some of the Elites in Reach will actually climb into the turrets of 'Hogs and shoot at you with them.

  • 03.02.2011 8:22 PM PDT

Well each Brute clan was a little different. Think of old barbarians of Gaul... They didn't all have the same facial trim or tattoos or butt-hair. These Brutes were just different... and easy to kill.

  • 03.02.2011 8:25 PM PDT

MJB

thank you, finally someone is making a good analogy

  • 03.02.2011 9:01 PM PDT
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Lets talk about the Rapid Conversion, the flagship of Chieftain Maccabeus:

Posted by: Halopedian
It was originally decommissioned by the Sangheili for their own use, but was deemed worthy of use by Jiralhanae. Many of its systems, including weapons and mechanical lifts, were disabled.


Oh no...

Posted by: Halopedian
[Maccabeus] was not allowed to repair any weapon systems and he was not allowed to have a Huragok on board, instead having Yanme'e serve as maintenance.


OH NO!!

Posted by: Halopedian
[The Lift System] was replaced with crude ladders as a deliberate affront to the Sangheili


Oh my God...

So...you wanna continue this? I sure can...

Although Maccabeus was one example, it was still a precedent in the way the Elites denigrated the brutes and treated them as inferiors. For all we know, any Brute ship, was exactly like Maccabeus' ship. I cannot say this for certain, but I can say we do have an example supporting my argument to this.

You cannot say, with total certainty, that the Brute ships in Halo 2, that were originally under the command of Brutes prior to the schism, did not have the same downgrades. Ships that were taken from Elites may have sported the standard machinery, but inherently Brute ships, could have very well been like Maccabeus' ship.

Equality...taking into account what I just said...doesn't sound too equal to me.

But...you have a twisted view of equality.

Posted by: OrderedComa
I said that they were completely equal OTHER THAN...


Right...so woman (at one point) were equal to men OTHER THAN the fact they were paid less. Blacks (at one point) were equal to whites, OTHER THAN the fact they were slaves.

Much like Brutes are equal to Elites, OTHER THAN, the fact they have no representation in Government.

What if I said you could no longer vote, and I actually took that right away from you...but in every other way we are equal. Are we SOCIETAL EQUALS? NO!

Common man, do you even know what equality is? You talk about SOCIETAL EQUALITY...but you don't even know how far reaching that is! SOCIETAL EQUALITY is equality in all sense, all branches, all aspects, all dignity, all morality, and all ways to another individual. The moment, you have one less right than someone else...you have lost equality!

Posted by: OrderedComa
Told by whom? And being skeptical of the Great Journey does not equal skeptical of religion in general, it should be painfully obvious if you've read the books that the Elites are very deeply religious, they believed the Forerunners were gods even before they encountered the Prophets, and they still believe so.


I cannot remember who posted this...but I will try and find the post where this is said...about how the Elites were always skeptical, etc.

Of course the Elites worship the Forerunners, everyone knows that. They revered and worships the technology while the Prophets exploited it. It led to a war a long time ago...it was the French Revolution or something...I dunno...

As for Reth...My point is...they still tortured someone, irregardless of what the reason was...they...still...torture.

Torture in the name of national defense, religion, or pleasure...torture is torture...and it's wrong.

Posted by: OrderedComa
And being skeptical of the Great Journey does not equal skeptical of religion in general.


The Great Journey is to the Covenant faith as the Rapture is to Christianity. Once you lose faith in the rapture...you pretty much hit the end of the road for Christianity.

As such, once the Great Journey was rebuked, that SHOULD end any religious belief. They knew the truth of what happened, they knew what happened to the Forerunners...they were not Gods, they were just dudes who got killed by killer hoops in space.

It's like worshiping Dinosaurs, claiming that "hey...the Dinosaurs moved to a higher plane of existence!"...but then you find their bones...and proof of Pangaea...and possible points of impact from a meteor...suddenly...that faith loses meaning as it has been disproved. Then you realize...hmmm...seems like a waste of time to me.

  • 03.02.2011 9:19 PM PDT

I like to play Devil's Advocate

So Brutes are Elites equals.....

They aren't equals.....

Brutes are slaves.....

They aren't slaves?

Can someone clear this up?

Because signs are pointing to yes....but people are saying no

[Edited on 03.03.2011 3:21 PM PST]

  • 03.03.2011 3:18 PM PDT

Posted By: Naked Crook
Oh my God...

So...you wanna continue this? I sure can...

Although Maccabeus was one example, it was still a precedent in the way the Elites denigrated the brutes and treated them as inferiors. For all we know, any Brute ship, was exactly like Maccabeus' ship. I cannot say this for certain, but I can say we do have an example supporting my argument to this.

You cannot say, with total certainty, that the Brute ships in Halo 2, that were originally under the command of Brutes prior to the schism, did not have the same downgrades. Ships that were taken from Elites may have sported the standard machinery, but inherently Brute ships, could have very well been like Maccabeus' ship.

Equality...taking into account what I just said...doesn't sound too equal to me.

But...you have a twisted view of equality.


They still had an elevator, so the claim that the ship didn't have an operable lift system is entirely absurd. Part of the reason Maccabeus put in ladders was to spite the Elites, and also because he remodeled the ship to his own personal tastes.

Actually I can say that with complete certainty, as we have an instance of a whole Covenant fleet composed of Brutes, the fleet at Unyielding Heirophant. I highly doubt Truth would choose to use a fleet of sub-par ships like Maccabeus had, and transferring them from Sangheili hands would seem odd, as the mission was supposed to be a secret and not attract attention, therefore it can be assumed that somewhere along the line between Harvest and Halo 2's timeframe the Brutes got better ships.

Right...so woman (at one point) were equal to men OTHER THAN the fact they were paid less. Blacks (at one point) were equal to whites, OTHER THAN the fact they were slaves.

Much like Brutes are equal to Elites, OTHER THAN, the fact they have no representation in Government.

What if I said you could no longer vote, and I actually took that right away from you...but in every other way we are equal. Are we SOCIETAL EQUALS? NO!

Common man, do you even know what equality is? You talk about SOCIETAL EQUALITY...but you don't even know how far reaching that is! SOCIETAL EQUALITY is equality in all sense, all branches, all aspects, all dignity, all morality, and all ways to another individual. The moment, you have one less right than someone else...you have lost equality!


-face meat grinder-
Oy, words can't even begin to describe how ludicrous that was, I could actually feel my brain melting and oozing out my ears from the sheer absurdity of it.

How would you describe it then smart ass? The best way I can think of to describe the Brute's position is exactly the way I did.

I cannot remember who posted this...but I will try and find the post where this is said...about how the Elites were always skeptical, etc.

Of course the Elites worship the Forerunners, everyone knows that. They revered and worships the technology while the Prophets exploited it. It led to a war a long time ago...it was the French Revolution or something...I dunno...

As for Reth...My point is...they still tortured someone, irregardless of what the reason was...they...still...torture.

Torture in the name of national defense, religion, or pleasure...torture is torture...and it's wrong.


The war you speak of is what brought about the founding of the Covenant. And it was nothing like the French Revolution, how did you come up with that parallel anyway :/

I haven't read the book yet, so I'm just going to stop talking about this issue and bring it back up once I read the Cole Protocol and see the whole thing for myself.

The Great Journey is to the Covenant faith as the Rapture is to Christianity. Once you lose faith in the rapture...you pretty much hit the end of the road for Christianity.

As such, once the Great Journey was rebuked, that SHOULD end any religious belief. They knew the truth of what happened, they knew what happened to the Forerunners...they were not Gods, they were just dudes who got killed by killer hoops in space.

It's like worshiping Dinosaurs, claiming that "hey...the Dinosaurs moved to a higher plane of existence!"...but then you find their bones...and proof of Pangaea...and possible points of impact from a meteor...suddenly...that faith loses meaning as it has been disproved. Then you realize...hmmm...seems like a waste of time to me.


Hardly, one can completely disbelieve in the Rapture and still believe Christianity, I don't fully understand the idea, and because Revelation is chock full of symbolism and it's hard to tell what is metaphorical language and what is not meant to be taken metaphorically. I'm not even entirely sure that the Rapture, as such, is even really mentioned in the Bible, nothing that stands out the way people usually describe it anyway.

Actually the Great Journey was not proven false at all, it was the idea of the Halos being connected to it that was debunked and tossed out. As far as I've read, the Elites still believe the whole of the Covenant religion with a few things changed either due to the Prophet's lies or finding out the truth of the matter.

  • 03.03.2011 8:30 PM PDT


Posted by: Cubanpete24
So Brutes are Elites equals.....

They aren't equals.....

Brutes are slaves.....

They aren't slaves?

Can someone clear this up?

Because signs are pointing to yes....but people are saying no


No, they are not slaves at all, and there is no evidence in canon to even back that claim up. The only Covenant species that comes even close to being regarded as a slave race are the Grunts.

  • 03.03.2011 8:31 PM PDT
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Posted by: OrderedComa
Actually I can say that with complete certainty, as we have an instance of a whole Covenant fleet composed of Brutes, the fleet at Unyielding Heirophant. I highly doubt Truth would choose to use a fleet of sub-par ships like Maccabeus had


The Brutes had armor that disintegrated like dry clay when you shot it. Truth had no problem giving them cheap armor, so why not cheap ships?

Posted by: OrderedComa
-face meat grinder-
Oy, words can't even begin to describe how ludicrous that was, I could actually feel my brain melting and oozing out my ears from the sheer absurdity of it.

How would you describe it then smart ass? The best way I can think of to describe the Brute's position is exactly the way I did.


You make sarcastic remarks in response to comments with connotations of slavery and gender inequality. You are a horrible person...and you are retarded.

I would describe the Covenant as a Caste System. You see...in a Caste System, there are multiple levels of society. Based on what societal definition you match, determines your place in the Caste System.

With the Covenant, it is determined by Race. It goes something like this:

-Prophets and Elites (Debatable but...also possible)
-Brutes
-Engineers
-Drones
-Jackals and Skirmishers
-Grunts

From top to bottom...that is a Caste system, with the races on top being the supreme races with the most power and rights, and the bottom races being the ones with the least amount of power and rights. I suggest you research Caste Systems before reply to anything I say. You obviously do not understand what a Caste System is.

But in general...Caste Systems are incompatible with equality. There is no such thing as equality in a Caste System as far as the different levels of the caste are concerned. Again...research Caste Systems.

Do you know how I would describe your views as the Covenant. I would describe them as WRONG.

If you STILL do not understand this, then I would be in my right mind to find your father and hit him between the legs with a sledge hammer as hard as I can. It would, at that point, be my duty to mankind to ensure that he never creates another idiot like you...EVER AGAIN!

Posted by: OrderedComa
And it was nothing like the French Revolution, how did you come up with that parallel anyway :/


I forgot...idiots need the [sarcasm][/sarcasm] BBCode. let me rephrase it for you...so you can understand:

Posted by: Naked Crook
Of course the Elites worship the Forerunners, everyone knows that. They revered and worships the technology while the Prophets exploited it. It led to a war a long time ago...

[sarcasm]it was the French Revolution or something...I dunno...[/sarcasm]


Better?

Posted by: OrderedComa
Actually the Great Journey was not proven false at all, it was the idea of the Halos being connected to it that was debunked and tossed out. As far as I've read, the Elites still believe the whole of the Covenant religion with a few things changed either due to the Prophet's lies or finding out the truth of the matter.


Ummm...343 Guilty Spark is a living witness to the mass suicide of the Forerunners to stop the Flood. I think he even said that the Halo's were weapons of last resort...and that all the Forerunners died...as planned.

The Forerunners died. For all we know this is how they died. This is what happens when you activate the Halo Array

That's not going to space heaven...that is called DYING HORRIBLY.

It's quite possible that is exactly what happened to every sentient being in the Galaxy. There is nothing left for the flood to use.

When the Elites stopped believing in the Great Journey, they learned of the Real purpose of the Halo Array.

When they learned of the real purpose of the Halo Array, they learned that the Forerunners died, and did not ascend.

When they learned the Forerunners died, and did not ascend, they learned the Forerunners were not Gods.

Game over for Religion.

  • 03.03.2011 10:58 PM PDT

Cook, you forgot Hunters.

  • 03.03.2011 11:00 PM PDT
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Posted by: mojeda101
Cook, you forgot Hunters.


Thank you...I knew I forgot something. They would fit possibly under Engineers.

Hunters are kinda important...the worms are in the Scarabs and such.

[Edited on 03.03.2011 11:47 PM PST]

  • 03.03.2011 11:46 PM PDT

Posted By: Naked Crook
The Brutes had armor that disintegrated like dry clay when you shot it. Truth had no problem giving them cheap armor, so why not cheap ships?


Um, how about no? The Brutes' armor is fine have you played ODST? They have some semblance of shields in that, and they're probably supposed to have shields in Halo 3 as well. And also it depends on the individual tribe or clan how much armor is used and what kinds, so some clans might have better armor than others due to personal choice. Where did you get the idea their armor were shoddy pieces of -blam!-?

You make sarcastic remarks in response to comments with connotations of slavery and gender inequality. You are a horrible person...and you are retarded.

I would describe the Covenant as a Caste System. You see...in a Caste System, there are multiple levels of society. Based on what societal definition you match, determines your place in the Caste System.

With the Covenant, it is determined by Race. It goes something like this:

-Prophets and Elites (Debatable but...also possible)
-Brutes
-Engineers
-Drones
-Jackals and Skirmishers
-Grunts

From top to bottom...that is a Caste system, with the races on top being the supreme races with the most power and rights, and the bottom races being the ones with the least amount of power and rights. I suggest you research Caste Systems before reply to anything I say. You obviously do not understand what a Caste System is.

But in general...Caste Systems are incompatible with equality. There is no such thing as equality in a Caste System as far as the different levels of the caste are concerned. Again...research Caste Systems.

Do you know how I would describe your views as the Covenant. I would describe them as WRONG.

If you STILL do not understand this, then I would be in my right mind to find your father and hit him between the legs with a sledge hammer as hard as I can. It would, at that point, be my duty to mankind to ensure that he never creates another idiot like you...EVER AGAIN!


I know all about caste systems thank you very much!

Engineers don't have a place in the caste system, they're much more like tools to the Covenant than actual creatures. And the Covenant is not exactly a caste system either, or at least not a very clear cut one, as the Jackals and Grunts dispute over which has a higher place, both have about the same amount of rights. I think Drones are about the same position as the Grunts and Jackals, not sure, I haven't seen any sources giving specifics concerning their position.
Prophets and Elites are completely equal though they serve entirely different functions. The Brutes have every single right the Sangheili do except a seat on the Council, I have never said the Brutes and Elites were completely equal, I know they're not, because the Brutes aren't on the Council.

The Covenant is not a very strict caste system, it's not at all like India's caste system.

Ummm...343 Guilty Spark is a living witness to the mass suicide of the Forerunners to stop the Flood. I think he even said that the Halo's were weapons of last resort...and that all the Forerunners died...as planned.

The Forerunners died. For all we know this is how they died. This is what happens when you activate the Halo Array

That's not going to space heaven...that is called DYING HORRIBLY.

It's quite possible that is exactly what happened to every sentient being in the Galaxy. There is nothing left for the flood to use.

When the Elites stopped believing in the Great Journey, they learned of the Real purpose of the Halo Array.

When they learned of the real purpose of the Halo Array, they learned that the Forerunners died, and did not ascend.

When they learned the Forerunners died, and did not ascend, they learned the Forerunners were not Gods.

Game over for Religion.


You obviously know nothing of the Halo lore on this matter? Have you read the Return or seen the motion comic for it? The Shipmaster in that still believe the Forerunners are gods, I'm not quite sure if he still believes in the Great Journey or not, it was not entirely clear on that point, but it clearly states that he still thinks the Forerunners are gods, and common sense would tell you that if one still believes it, there must be more. I can't speak for the whole race, but there are still at least some Elites who believe that the Forerunners are gods.

You can imagine what you wish, but I don't think that's what the Halos do, especially since we know nothing other than it killed all life in Forerunner known space.

  • 03.05.2011 10:31 AM PDT
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Posted by: OrderedComa
And the Covenant is not exactly a caste system either, or at least not a very clear cut one


You're right...perhaps not totally clear cut, that's assuming you are lookin at it from a race point of view.

You could easily rename the Castes and fit the Covenant races in their appropriate places...but we won't get into that we. We both understand, at least, the Covenant is LIKE a Caste System.

Posted by: OrderedComa
The Brutes have every single right the Sangheili do except a seat on the Council, I have never said the Brutes and Elites were completely equal


You did, in fact, say they were societal equals, which implies full equality on all levels, as a society is composed of many different aspects, including Government, military, civilian status, etc.

You called the societal equals...but now you call them equals in most aspects. This is good...this means you are learning. Brutes and Elites may be equal in terms of rights A, B, C, and D...but since the Elites have a right, which we will call E, a right that the Brutes do not have, this will forever preclude societal equality. They may be equal in terms of military, they may be equal in the amount of respect they get from their lessers, but they will never be equal in government representation.

Posted by: OrderedComa
You obviously know nothing of the Halo lore on this matter? Have you read the Return or seen the motion comic for it? The Shipmaster in that still believe the Forerunners are gods, I'm not quite sure if he still believes in the Great Journey or not, it was not entirely clear on that point, but it clearly states that he still thinks the Forerunners are gods, and common sense would tell you that if one still believes it, there must be more. I can't speak for the whole race, but there are still at least some Elites who believe that the Forerunners are gods.


I am sorry for being a human being who thinks for himself. I am sorry I don't eat schlock like everyone else.

Any rational, normal thinking person, when given irrefutable and discrediting evidence on a subject, tends to rethink their position and reevaluate what they believe.

In this case, it was proven to the Elites the Forerunners were corporal beings. Corporal beings die, they expire, they are fallible, they are weak, and they are small. By definition...these are traits a God or Gods do NOT share.

Now I see two possibilities here:

1. The book writers are stupid, and they have NO CLUE how to write realistic, and rational thinking characters. The only thing these writers know how to do is write 1-dimensional and static characters with absolutely no mental growth. This gives me plenty of reason not to read these books written by stupid people.

OR

2. The Elites are stupid. They are so deluded, and misguided, that they do not deserve a fraction of the respect and intelligence that is credited to them. They believe in discredited lies and fallacies for their own personal comfort (but conveniently lose faith in a nearly identical set of lies and fallacies: IE - The Covenant and the Great Journey). Any race that so heavily deludes itself in lies, and double standards, should not, and could not, advance the way the Elites did...but somehow they did.

What makes me even more sick, is that we, as the outsiders, KNOW, for a fact, the Forerunners were not Gods...but...you still defend the Elites for believe in nonsense and bullocks. But of course not...you eat this schlock, non stop, eating it, and eating it, and eating it...accepting this substandard literary work, and never questioning it, and never thinking about it like a rational human being would.

Step back from these stupid books for a second, and actually think about this...think for yourself...think like a rational human being.

Once you do this...you will FULLY understand my point of view, and you may even agree with me.

  • 03.05.2011 12:29 PM PDT

dupa! C:

when i saw the halo reach render, i thought the brutes were gonna have a diability

  • 03.05.2011 12:32 PM PDT

On a related note, ******'s mom has really nice boobs, and it doesn't take much booze or encouragement to get her to let the puppies out of the pen...if you know what I mean...

Posted by: mojeda101
The Brutes on Reach were from a different clan, not under Tartarus, who of course allowed Brutes to grow out their hair. These were under the Prophets, which if you notice in Halo 3, also had no hair, because the Prophets ordered all Brutes to be shaved and given Power Armor since Tartarus was no longer around.

I also hate that they removed Berserk from the Brute. I missed seeing them fly to you and can kill you in one hit but you can kill them with a few shots. I wanted them to have hair, I truely did, I wanted to face Bigfoot's, Bungie decided otherwise.

But at least there is a reason why, you're welcome.

Love, A Brute Fan as well =]

  • 03.05.2011 12:55 PM PDT