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This topic has moved here: Subject: Something i noticed on the Reach scorpion.
  • Subject: Something i noticed on the Reach scorpion.
Subject: Something i noticed on the Reach scorpion.

"The UNSC don't need AR's with that kind of range,the AR's were developped during the innie war,the battles only took place in urban and the AR's did well.Which idiot would need an AR with a range of 600 meters on a open wield unless you charge into enemie lines (star wars style aotc)"

LOL.

You do realize that effective range is also a mitigating factor in effective killing power, right? Meaning that if an Insurgent manages to sight you at 350m (and urban combat - thanks to Iraq - has proven to take place at far greater ranges) with a weapon with an ER of 600m he's more likely to not only reduce bullet fall, but could penetrate your armor.

Whereas a 300m ER round from your weapons will essentially miss more often and often fail to perceptibly kill the target even with direct hits.

Having a lower effective range with a higher muzzle velocity is (and I have to yell this) BAD ENGINEERING! It's calling card of somebody who has no clue what they're talking about.

  • 02.26.2011 6:13 AM PDT

Posted by:ScubaToaster
Posted by: HipiO7
This man, this man right here put it so eloquently that I actually cancelled my own 2000+ word long post.
/slow clap for respect


:)
The person who said participating is important, not winning, obviously never won anything.

Modern day takes would be destroyed by Scopions.

Scorpions fire a larger round and can reload in 2 seconds and only needs one person to operate the whole system, while modern day tanks need an entire team to operate it.

  • 02.26.2011 6:21 AM PDT
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"Time was your ally human. But now it has abandoned you. The Forerunners....have returned. And this tomb... is now yours". - The Didact


Posted by: Zero_Patience
@ Hotshot Revan:

- Actually (as proven with my above chart) even when we were colonizing much of the planet we were still progressing in leaps and bounds in small arms, far faster than the UNSC anwyay.

- So the FTL drive being the single most expensive piece of equipment is your reason for their poor small arms? You do realize that's an excuse right. A valid excuse, but it still doesn't make UNSC weapons anymore powerful than modern small arms.

An excuse is an excuse, not a rebuttal.

- And yet none of those ONI technologies have seen widespread UNSC adoption, ergo they have nothing to do with my argument in regards to UNSC small arms. Can you shut up with the pointless excuses, please? It's starting to get annoying.

- We have many weapons that were purpose built for dealing with urban combat, it still doesn't mean that you handicap their effective range as to limit their formal adoption and increase the per-unit cost (and you yourself argued that cost was a mitigating factor); unless you were mentally retarded.

But then again, being mentally handicapped seems to be the UNSC arms design policy.

- You do realize that there are many modern weapons that can cite such durability (the AK series comes to mind)? However I'm not seeing a cite for this, so I will only have to take your somewhat stunted word for it.


-How do you know that?You said "most of the planet" the UNSC colonised 800 planets.
When did we built FTL drives,or terreformed planets,building large space ships dwarfing any construction made by us today,space elevators,...

You really honestly gonna tell me that during a space colonisation period,the UNSC still had to improve weapons instead of expanding???

-The FTL thing in one of the causes.The UNSC have no infinite budget.
Spending your budget on weapons during a crysis period is a waste of money.Earth was too overpopulated,they had to quickly use everything they have to expand into space.

-A few of them did.But my point was ONI and the UNSC work different,that's why ONI had those advanced tech at their disposal.It was just an exemple.

-I have to agree with this point.But not all UNSC weapons suffer this.The AR is still well suited.

-That's why i only mentioned the M16

As for my source:I have slogged through snow and mud and sand with my (MA5C); even got dumped into an open sewer with it and it has never given me a bit of complaint. I trust it like I trust my own arms.

That's from the link you gave.



  • 02.26.2011 6:38 AM PDT

Que Pasta...?
:D


Posted by: RotaryCookie
Scorpion MBT; 66 tons, titanium ceramic armour**. 90mm smoothbore gun, 54 kph on road [B](wiki, although it has never shown to do more than a jogging speed)[B], exposed driver and gunner. Not to mention the raised gun that exposes the hydraulics.


Just to point this out, think about Halo Reach's cutscene on the mission in which you destroy the AA guns (The name eludes me).

They're shown to be driving the same speed as a full fleet of Warthogs and Mongoose, all driving at VERY high speeds.

Just sayin' ^.^

  • 02.26.2011 8:12 AM PDT

About me: I am a vicious wolf of a man.

But really am sweet at heart. =)

2.

Scorpion: 90mm Main Gun.
1 7.62x51 exposed mount or coaxial mount.
Top speed of 10 mph w/ exposed engine.
One foot of Titanium Armor with huge hole in front for machine gun.

M1 Abrams: 105mm rifled barrel or 120 smooth bore canon
1 Top mounted .50 caliber remote operated machine gun, 2 coaxial 7.62x51mm machine guns.
Top speed of around 50 mph on roads, 40 mph on rough terrain.
Layers of Explosive Reactant Armor, depleted uranium weave, and composite plastics that can survive a hit up to 120mm and can take Duel Purpose High Explosive and HEAT rounds.

This is the general layout for pretty much all NATO heavy armor. Any Leopard 2, Abrams, or Challenger II could drive circles around a Scorpion and take it out in one shot.

  • 02.26.2011 8:54 AM PDT
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Rawr Im a dino!

They needed to produce a huge amount of Scorpians and fast to combat the covenant. They needed something maneuverable and fast that could be made easily.

  • 02.26.2011 9:46 AM PDT
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"Time was your ally human. But now it has abandoned you. The Forerunners....have returned. And this tomb... is now yours". - The Didact


Posted by: Gottalovec4
2.

Scorpion: 90mm Main Gun.
1 7.62x51 exposed mount or coaxial mount.
Top speed of 10 mph w/ exposed engine.
One foot of Titanium Armor with huge hole in front for machine gun.

M1 Abrams: 105mm rifled barrel or 120 smooth bore canon
1 Top mounted .50 caliber remote operated machine gun, 2 coaxial 7.62x51mm machine guns.
Top speed of around 50 mph on roads, 40 mph on rough terrain.
Layers of Explosive Reactant Armor, depleted uranium weave, and composite plastics that can survive a hit up to 120mm and can take Duel Purpose High Explosive and HEAT rounds.

This is the general layout for pretty much all NATO heavy armor. Any Leopard 2, Abrams, or Challenger II could drive circles around a Scorpion and take it out in one shot.


Biased too much??Not to mention some of your info about the scoprion is wrong.

I guess you played Reach right,your service record says so.
Then i assume you played tip of the spear,watch the opening cutscene and you see scoprion moving at high speeds.

And there are two 7,62 mm turrets on the scoprion,that subject was the ponit of this entire thread.
Which exposed engine??

Which huge hole?

  • 02.26.2011 10:25 AM PDT

Regarding UNSC small arms.

Density of Steel: 7850 kg/m2
Density of lead: 11340 kg/m2
Density of Tungsten: 19600 kg/m2

So a tungsten core round would be in the region of 250grains, at 905 m/s puts it at 6600 joules (4800fpe) compared to a modern .308 that has 3600 joules (2600fpe)

That gives it 1.8 times more kenetic energy, with no observed increase in recoil.

I therefore call bull on the canon figures presented. I would estimate a maximum effective range of 1500m+.

  • 02.26.2011 10:50 AM PDT


Posted by: Zero_Patience
@ Hotshot Revan:

- Actually (as proven with my above chart) even when we were colonizing much of the planet we were still progressing in leaps and bounds in small arms, far faster than the UNSC anwyay.

- So the FTL drive being the single most expensive piece of equipment is your reason for their poor small arms? You do realize that's an excuse right. A valid excuse, but it still doesn't make UNSC weapons anymore powerful than modern small arms.

An excuse is an excuse, not a rebuttal.


When we were colonizing the unexplored areas of the Earth, the nations were still at war/ fighting.

When the UNSC was colonizing systems, ALL of humanity was with it, there was no war, no heavy fighting.

  • 02.26.2011 10:56 AM PDT

About me: I am a vicious wolf of a man.

But really am sweet at heart. =)


Posted by: hotshot revan II

Posted by: Gottalovec4
2.

Scorpion: 90mm Main Gun.
1 7.62x51 exposed mount or coaxial mount.
Top speed of 10 mph w/ exposed engine.
One foot of Titanium Armor with huge hole in front for machine gun.

M1 Abrams: 105mm rifled barrel or 120 smooth bore canon
1 Top mounted .50 caliber remote operated machine gun, 2 coaxial 7.62x51mm machine guns.
Top speed of around 50 mph on roads, 40 mph on rough terrain.
Layers of Explosive Reactant Armor, depleted uranium weave, and composite plastics that can survive a hit up to 120mm and can take Duel Purpose High Explosive and HEAT rounds.

This is the general layout for pretty much all NATO heavy armor. Any Leopard 2, Abrams, or Challenger II could drive circles around a Scorpion and take it out in one shot.


Biased too much??Not to mention some of your info about the scoprion is wrong.

I guess you played Reach right,your service record says so.
Then i assume you played tip of the spear,watch the opening cutscene and you see scoprion moving at high speeds.

And there are two 7,62 mm turrets on the scoprion,that subject was the ponit of this entire thread.
Which exposed engine??

Which huge hole?



Uh, look at the cutscene closely genius. The Scorpions and Hogs start at the same spot, but immediately the Hogs pull away from the tanks and they are never seen again.

And what do you mean, "what exposed engine"? That huge grate at the rear of the turret is the engine, and one guy with a frag grenade can take it out from there.

The huge hole is where the gunner on the front mounted 7.62 sits. Why the UNSC would have such a huge gap in defense so a human can do what a slaved link to the driver's helmet could do I have no idea.

Even if the Scorpion DOES have 2 7.62x51 NATO machine guns it is still completely inferior to the Abrams in every way. From exposed treads, to a huge dead zone covering the entire rear of the tank where no weapons can reach, it is a slowly moving death trap.



[Edited on 02.26.2011 11:02 AM PST]

  • 02.26.2011 11:00 AM PDT

Weapon of Oppression


Posted by: Zero_Patience
Actually, canon says otherwise. In fact the information on this very site disagrees with what you've said entirely:

- AR: http://www.bungie.net/News/content.aspx?type=topnews&link =BAGAssaultRifle

7.62mm ammunition, a maximum effective range of 300m and a muzzle velocity of 905m/s, hardly what would constitute as an arm shattering weapon, is it?

- SMG: http://www.bungie.net/projects/halo3/content.aspx?link=h3smg

5mm caseless rounds, 427m/s muzzle velocity and a maximum effective range of 50m. I can count pistols off the top of my head that are better than this, never mind actual real world SMG's. The UNSC has had nearly 500 years of R&R in interstellar warfare from the 20th century on, and yet their small arms are straight out of the 1960's.

Sorry folks, nothing impressive or uber advanced going on here (never mind that the Battle Rifle - which you listed - has an effective range of 200 meters).


Yes,you guy are my hero.
This is what i was trying to say.

  • 02.26.2011 11:04 AM PDT

Sour0deez is the leader of the t-P-t
And Administrator of The Clan Union Group
this file is not linked to sour0deez due to technical difficulties this file is linked to MUGBEER19 also IMPORTANT here my name is sourodeez on xbox it is sour0deez

to enforce co-operation

  • 02.26.2011 11:08 AM PDT

@Gottalovec4
take a look at my comparison on page 1, you will see that while trying to prove what you are saying, I unwittingly proved that the Scorpion, while inferior, isn't as bad as it appears on first looks.

  • 02.26.2011 11:16 AM PDT

You guys are comparing the gameplay tank when you obviously have no idea how the canon tank works.

Scorpion Armament
1 - 90mm Rapid Fire Main Cannon
1 - Unmanned 7.62x51mm Turret
1 - Manned 7.62x51mm Turret

Abrams Armament
1 - 120mm Slow Fire Main Cannon(which only fires a 45mm slug)
1 - Manned .50 Cal Turret


The Scorpion would be able to plant 4 shots on the Abrams before the Abrams can even take a second shot, do you realize how hard it is to reload when you were just hit by a 90mm slug? That would tear through the armor easily, the Recoil and brace for fire wouldn't let the men be able to slip the slug into the cannon, while the Scorpion is auto fired by a system.

That is all.

Scorpions could easily take up to 8 shots from a 45mm slug, not basing this off gameplay, off canon.

Ready for someone to prove me wrong.

  • 02.26.2011 11:33 AM PDT

Mojeda has a point, the guy saying the Scorpion is completely inferior to the Abrams is going completely off gameplay. Fun fact, gameplay mechanics and how it really acts in canon is different.

Oh, and in Tip of the Spear, you are wrong about one thing.

The Scorpions are seen first, moving at high speeds. THEN Warthogs come up and around the tanks, moving slightly faster.

  • 02.26.2011 11:48 AM PDT

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Mojeda has a point, the guy saying the Scorpion is completely inferior to the Abrams is going completely off gameplay. Fun fact, gameplay mechanics and how it really acts in canon is different.

Oh, and in Tip of the Spear, you are wrong about one thing.

The Scorpions are seen first, moving at high speeds. THEN Warthogs come up and around the tanks, moving slightly faster.


One notable thing the Scorpion has is it's multiple tracks that allow it to go into near impossible terrain that Abrams cannot.

  • 02.26.2011 6:57 PM PDT

I put the laughter in manslaughter


Posted by: RotaryCookie
2)
Challenger II MBT; 63 tons, Dorchester/Chobham armour*, 120mm rifled gun, 59/37 kph on/off road

Scorpion MBT; 66 tons, titanium ceramic armour**. 90mm smoothbore gun, 54 kph on road (wiki, although it has never shown to do more than a jogging speed), exposed driver and gunner. Not to mention the raised gun that exposes the hydraulics.



* the specifics are classified but there are many examples of Challengers (and Warrior IFVs) surviving multiple Anti-tank shaped charges.

** If it can't stop super heated plasma, it can't stop anti-tank rounds that cause brute force (non composite) armours like titanium battleplate to melt due to the super-heated plasma generated by the impact.


Result: Challenger II would tear a Scorpion to peices.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZ8pZ-iAKn4 in the video (at 1:00 and on), you can see the scorpions moving pretty fast..

  • 02.26.2011 9:19 PM PDT


Posted by: AngrydoG
Why do you have a hard on for the Challenger II?

The Abrams is clearly superior.


Abrams: "As of March 2005, approximately 80 Abrams tanks were forced out of action by enemy attacks....although several tank crew members were later killed by roadside bombs during the occupation that followed."

Challenger: "There have been two Challenger 2s damaged in combat and one destroyed"
"...one Challenger mistakenly engaged another Challenger 2...It remains the only Challenger 2 to be completely destroyed on operations."
"One Challenger 2 operating near Basra survived being hit by 70 RPGs in another incident."
One Challenger 2 "was hit directly by fourteen rocket propelled grenades from close range and a MILAN anti-tank missile. The crew survived remaining safe within the tank until the tank was recovered for repairs, the worst damage being to the sighting system. It was back in operation six hours later after repairs."


There we go. Challenger II > Abrams, in the most important matter, survivability and crew protection.

  • 02.27.2011 1:57 AM PDT

Im honestly sick of people comparing the Challenger with the Abrams, the Arbams is the premier armored combat system on earth, 1500 Horsepower gas-turbine engine that runs whisper quiet compared to the 1200HP Diesel on the CH2, 3rd generation Chobham armor which is codenamed Dorchester coupled with a depleted uranium mesh in the front and turret armor. The Challenger hasnt been exposed to the combat that the Abrams has.

So im sorry to say but Abrams > Challenger/Scorpion, The abrams has survived multiple direct hits from other Abrams tanks in friendly fire incidents and still survived with minor damage.

Modern tank crews would wipe the floor with a Scorpion tank.

Also Titanium A battleplate is nothing more than Titanium-50 which is hardened but it still does not compare to the armor of modern day tanks.


On another note, the progress in which Humanity advances in 500 years is laughable in the Halo universe, Surely by then railguns would be standard on tanks and other artillery systems.

The modern day US Army/Marines/Air Force would give the covenant army an ass whooping,but not if you bring the Covenant Navy into the fray.



[Edited on 02.27.2011 2:50 AM PST]

  • 02.27.2011 2:39 AM PDT

>>/INFO_ONISEC1SER3
/CLASSIFICATION>> CLASS ?
/MISSION_CONTROL>> BASE ALAMO
/CODENAME>> FACOTA FI
/MISSON_LOCATION>> CLASSIFIED
/MISSION_STATUS >> 7H+IN_PROGRESS
>>END //INFO_ONISEC1SER3 >>CLEAR

I once took part in this type of thread. There I proved, yes proved some points but I'm not digging them up now. Feel free to find them if you wish.

Sorry, irrelevant post, but I did enjoy reading this thread. : )

[Edited on 02.27.2011 2:47 AM PST]

  • 02.27.2011 2:44 AM PDT
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"Time was your ally human. But now it has abandoned you. The Forerunners....have returned. And this tomb... is now yours". - The Didact

The Scorpion looks like it can fire merely HEAT rounds, rather than the depleted uranium darts, that the Abrams fires.


Looks like??That's no evidence,how about do some research and post something valid.

The scorpion fires a 90 mm tungsten armor piercing ballistic capped round...at high velocity.Remember the faster the projectile goes,the more damage it does
*points to the gauss cannon*

It also has the canister shell with a large kill radius.

HEAT shells are not meant for tank to tank fighting. The darts are.

Too bad you argument is invalid becomes the scorpino doesn't fires any HEAT shells.

Modern tank crews would wipe the floor with a Scorpion tank.

Prove it.

Also Titanium A battleplate is nothing more than Titanium-50 which is hardened but it still does not compare to the armor of modern day tanks.

Here we go again,another claim with no proof backed up.

On another note, the progress in which Humanity advances in 500 years is laughable in the Halo universe, Surely by then railguns would be standard on tanks and other artillery systems.

Hahaha your argument is laughable,you completely ignored the fact that the UNSC didn't invested in military anymore because they just invested all their budget in space colonisation.

Why are people like you so single minded?I bet in 500 years current humanity wouldn't even exist anymore if they keep doing stupid things like now.

Instead of building new energy resources they invest most of their budget in war.

Humans are just retards,period unless they do something good and invest in space colonisation or else we would die on a overpopulated planet with dry resources.

Investement in military started back during the war with innies.Even then the UNSC have still better things then current military.

-UNSC nukes are better
-Most of the weapons like the sniper and rocket laucnher,splazer
-Aircraft
-Most of the vehicles
-Spartans
-Soldier armor
...

The logic of idiots who claim the UNSC sucks:

"If the AR range sucs then everything sucks as well"
"I can't hit someone at a range of 50 in the game,so the UNSC sucks"

The modern day US Army/Marines/Air Force would give the covenant army an ass whooping,but not if you bring the Covenant Navy into the fray.

Too bad the covie have artillery tanks that can wipe out anything in a radius of 20 meter

They have massive spider walkers that can crush any opposition with ease.

Plasma melts you to death

Vampire aircrafts can engage many aircrafts at the same time thanks to their rotating needler turret,2 plasma cannons and one statis cannon.

An average elite would beat an average human

Hunters can rip apart entire platoon(see the flood and fall of reach books)

...
..

I can give more things,but i bet your ignorance will blind you again.












  • 02.27.2011 4:00 AM PDT


Posted by: KillerKalaj212
On another note, the progress in which Humanity advances in 500 years is laughable in the Halo universe, Surely by then railguns would be standard on tanks and other artillery systems.


Maybe if the UNSC focused entirely on war for the 500 years.

However, they didn't. From before the first slips-space drive working to after the rebels popped up they focused entirely on economy and colonization. They was no war, there was no fighting.

  • 02.27.2011 5:12 AM PDT