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This topic has moved here: Subject: Something i noticed on the Reach scorpion.
  • Subject: Something i noticed on the Reach scorpion.
Subject: Something i noticed on the Reach scorpion.
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"Time was your ally human. But now it has abandoned you. The Forerunners....have returned. And this tomb... is now yours". - The Didact

From Halo Wars timeline:

A unified Earth government was formed in the wake of these conflicts. Now, the victors were forced to deal with a less obvious but equally serious threat: overpopulation and a massive military that had no enemy to fight.

In the postwar period there were massive population surges and the overpopulation, coupled with the destruction and famine bred by the Rain Forest Wars, threatened to destabilize the economy.



See the problems they had,if they were stupid enough to keep investing into warfare instead of space colonisation then it would result into Human extintion.

  • 02.27.2011 5:32 AM PDT

I am alpha, i am omega.

I am the last of the primes.

Don't the modern day armys use steel as 1 of their main metals?

Plasma + steel = a lot of melting...

  • 02.27.2011 6:45 AM PDT

You're the ignorant one here, You're completely wrong on the HEAT round point. HEAT stands for HIGH EXPLOSIVE ANTI TANK round, its mean to use explosive force to punch directly thru tank armor.

Also, Hunters could be taken care of easily by Javelin missile launchers.

Have you seen the XM25? XM2001 Crusader? M1A2 SEP? F-22 Raptor? please you have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to military history or arms. in 500 years i expect the United States military to have surpassed even our wildest sci-fi dreams in its technical achievement. Halo is a bad portrayal on what level of technology humans should be at in the 26th century.

Yes you could use the argument that they have Translight engines or outer colonies but its still a flawed argument.

Scarabs would be taken out with air or artillery strikes too.

  • 02.27.2011 1:31 PM PDT


Posted by: KillerKalaj212
Scarabs would be taken out with air or artillery strikes too.
What happens when Tyrants are built, and the battle is in a cityscape?

  • 02.27.2011 1:36 PM PDT

Precision artillery and JDAMs could most definitely cripple it, if not destroy it.

  • 02.27.2011 1:56 PM PDT

Posted by: KillerKalaj212
You're the ignorant one here, You're completely wrong on the HEAT round point. HEAT stands for HIGH EXPLOSIVE ANTI TANK round, its mean to use explosive force to punch directly thru tank armor.

Also, Hunters could be taken care of easily by Javelin missile launchers.

Have you seen the XM25? XM2001 Crusader? M1A2 SEP? F-22 Raptor? please you have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to military history or arms. in 500 years i expect the United States military to have surpassed even our wildest sci-fi dreams in its technical achievement. Halo is a bad portrayal on what level of technology humans should be at in the 26th century.

Yes you could use the argument that they have Translight engines or outer colonies but its still a flawed argument.

Scarabs would be taken out with air or artillery strikes too.


False, It takes up to three direct shots by a 102mm Rocket to kill a Hunter, you think one measily Javilin could kill a Hunter? Add to the fact they can dodge them with ease(Book: The Flood)

Scrabs would be taken out by simple air strikes? Have you seen the cutscenes on Halo 2? The Top turret of the Scarab would shoot down the Helos before they could even come within 500 Yards.

  • 02.27.2011 2:09 PM PDT

I put the laughter in manslaughter


Posted by: RotaryCookie

Posted by: ferrrari

First off, the abrams tank only fires a 120 sabot round which turns into a 40mm dart... While the scorpion fires a 90mm slug at far higher velocity... Also the scorpion armour is far stronger then any of todays armour. Trust me it is very strong... It packs more firepower and defanse then modern day tank... Also it's turret is smaller, making it a smaller target...



Abrams =/= Challenger II. although your right about the 40mm dart.

However, I will not "trust you" about the armour. I have provided the closest comparisons of each of the armours capabilities using evidence provided and, using my admittedly limited knowledge to come to the conclusion that Titanium Ceramic (battleplate) armour is, at the given thickness and weight, less effective against convenant weapons than current reactive/composite armours. As well as providing examples of other synthetic materials capable of absoring the heat energy fully.

Just saying UNSC armour is better is not a proper counter argument.


Yes, it has a smaller turret, but it has exposed workings and a horribly high profile. Overall much easier to hit and cause damage to.
Even if we assume the 90mm surpasses the 120mm in raw firepower, I still feel the Scorpion would lose against a Challenger II or other modern MBT in any engagement except for maybe in a defensive role.


given that the UNSC has about 500 years of development on us, as well as multiple wars that really spur invention and innovation, I would say that the "UNSC is just better" argument seems pretty solid.

  • 02.27.2011 9:08 PM PDT


Posted by: KillerKalaj212
You're the ignorant one here, You're completely wrong on the HEAT round point. HEAT stands for HIGH EXPLOSIVE ANTI TANK round, its mean to use explosive force to punch directly thru tank armor.

Also, Hunters could be taken care of easily by Javelin missile launchers.

Have you seen the XM25? XM2001 Crusader? M1A2 SEP? F-22 Raptor? please you have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to military history or arms. in 500 years i expect the United States military to have surpassed even our wildest sci-fi dreams in its technical achievement. Halo is a bad portrayal on what level of technology humans should be at in the 26th century.

Yes you could use the argument that they have Translight engines or outer colonies but its still a flawed argument.

Scarabs would be taken out with air or artillery strikes too.


*sigh* You are ignoring the base facts of this situation.

THERE WAS NO WARS. Colonization era had no fighting, no heavy weapons research. They didn't care about making better ways to kill somebody. They wanted ways to colonize new planets, and terraforming to make those planets better suited for human life/producing food.

Halo is one of the most reasonable portrayals of human tech in the future. There is no "OMG Alien influence/artifact that gives us insane tech quickly!" Military might and gear is shown as being realistic to how the time advanced for the UNSC.

I doubt the current military forces could stand against a Covenant force. Air strike? I pull in Seraphs and AA guns. Your aircraft are gone. Artillery? Wraith and low-atmosphere bombardments. Tanks? Likewise bombardments and quick-moving anti-vehicle kill squads and scarabs, hunters included.

  • 02.27.2011 9:32 PM PDT

It is rudely innaccurate to state that "THERE WERE NO WARS." According to the timeline, wars were being continually fought during the period between pre-colonization and the insurrection. Even if this were not true, the UNSC participated in decades of anti-terrorism preceding the Covenant War.

That being said, I think that the vast majority of information that we all reference concerning humanit's technological level is just plain understated. Much of what we know as canon was written by game-developers and writers with no military knowledge. Even then, much of the underlying tech-lore is completely unsung. No one knows about the recoil-comensators that work in tandem with the targeting sensors in the compact electronics suite of a standard issue rifle, or the computerized aiming systems and stabilizers on-board a main battle tank, or the titanium nano-composite body armor that each soldier wears into battle because none of it has been written before. We know it's all possible if trans-light engines and self-aware artifial intelligence is possible, but we can't except it as canon because no one has ellaborated on it yet. But given time and more experienced writers, the Halo universe is more than capable of playing host to advanced tech that exceeds our own.

^I get the feeling that was a rant.

  • 02.27.2011 9:57 PM PDT

Actually, I'm talking colonization era, not before they developed the slipspace drive and not after the rebels first appeared.

The time between those two events was pretty much without any wars, and anti-terrorism missions was after the rebels appeared.

  • 02.27.2011 10:10 PM PDT

On hiding dead bodies:
Posted by: Psuedo
Posted by: teh Chaz
Inside another dead body. It's the last place they'll look
A corpse within a corpse.
CORPSEPTION.
Win.

The modern tank is faster, more heavily armoured, has a heavier gun, has more guns and is physically capable of engaging other armoured vehicles.

If you were to present the Scorpion to any modern army, they would instantly reject it. Its chassis survivability and crew survivability is somewhere between 0 and... not much more.

  • 02.28.2011 3:31 AM PDT

The Javelin missile is a 127 mm missile with a Tandem HEAT warhead it would make short work of a Hunter, im sorry but 500 years regardless if there was no wars, there would still be technological advancement. You're argument is ultimately flawed, F-22 Raptors can drop precision 2000lb JDAM bombs, Cluster munitions, Cruise missiles and other weapons, and obviously Helicopters would be used as close air support against smaller ground targets and not Scarabs i doubt Covenant AAA can hit a B-2 at 50,000 ft.

God knows what Lockheed Martin and Boeing have hidden in their skunk works that could also be used to wreak havoc on the Covenant Army.

  • 02.28.2011 4:15 AM PDT


Posted by: JDYeash937 MkII
The modern tank is faster, more heavily armoured, has a heavier gun, has more guns and is physically capable of engaging other armoured vehicles.

If you were to present the Scorpion to any modern army, they would instantly reject it. Its chassis survivability and crew survivability is somewhere between 0 and... not much more.


This based in gameplay or in canon facts?

Posted by: KillerKalaj212
The Javelin missile is a 127 mm missile with a Tandem HEAT warhead it would make short work of a Hunter, im sorry but 500 years regardless if there was no wars, there would still be technological advancement. You're argument is ultimately flawed, F-22 Raptors can drop precision 2000lb JDAM bombs, Cluster munitions, Cruise missiles and other weapons, and obviously Helicopters would be used as close air support against smaller ground targets and not Scarabs i doubt Covenant AAA can hit a B-2 at 50,000 ft.

God knows what Lockheed Martin and Boeing have hidden in their skunk works that could also be used to wreak havoc on the Covenant Army.



Covenant Heavy AA gun is powerful enough to keep a UNSC frigate at bay.

Anyway, sure there are advancements, but there is a MAJOR difference between 500 years spent focusing on military and 500 years spent focusing on colonization and economy.

Edit: Just something I've noticed, you seem to be just going "Modern weapons can easily destroy Covenant." without even looking at the Covenant gear. It honestly sounds like you are simply going "Modern gear is best." and not looking at anything else.

[Edited on 02.28.2011 5:36 AM PST]

  • 02.28.2011 5:34 AM PDT

I'm merely stating that modern weaponry could give the covenant a run for its money. Yes covenant AA could destroy a frigate and a cruiser but those are space weapons, im speaking about ground assets with some atmospheric aircraft. Yes covenant gear is very advanced with their plasma weaponry and gravity propulsion.

Have you seen covenant tactics? Hordes of grunts other species just run at you, any real military would use maneuver and combined arms warfare to a degree that would destroy covenant armies. I'm not saying that UNSC weapons are not advanced, they are actually very advanced but I would expect to see a more actual depiction of how a war would be fought. Longswords strategic bombing covenant positions, HARM missiles taking out covenant AAA emplacements, stuff of that nature.

  • 02.28.2011 6:22 AM PDT
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"Time was your ally human. But now it has abandoned you. The Forerunners....have returned. And this tomb... is now yours". - The Didact


Posted by: KillerKalaj212
I'm merely stating that modern weaponry could give the covenant a run for its money. Yes covenant AA could destroy a frigate and a cruiser but those are space weapons, im speaking about ground assets with some atmospheric aircraft. Yes covenant gear is very advanced with their plasma weaponry and gravity propulsion.

Have you seen covenant tactics? Hordes of grunts other species just run at you, any real military would use maneuver and combined arms warfare to a degree that would destroy covenant armies. I'm not saying that UNSC weapons are not advanced, they are actually very advanced but I would expect to see a more actual depiction of how a war would be fought. Longswords strategic bombing covenant positions, HARM missiles taking out covenant AAA emplacements, stuff of that nature.


Covenant AA batteries are used on ground,just see Halo 3 and Reach.
I don't know if you read first strike,but it's said there a wraith mortar got a kill radius of 20 meters.In Halo Reach a plasma mortar hits and destroys a concrete building in the tots opening scene.

I guess you only played the games right?Because covies use rush tactics when sending suicide grunt squads ahead.
-Seen in first strike,when they cleared a mine field
-Jericho where thousands of grunts attack sII

Competent elite commanders and even brutes use modern tactics like squad.But don't expect many squad tactics when you are in the middle of a massive war like WOII,we even saw Tank rushes in that war.

The Covenant would massacre us.

  • 02.28.2011 7:49 AM PDT

I put the laughter in manslaughter

Humans never really advanced past the projectiles weaponry because, well, it worked pretty well for us.
launching stuff at insane speeds or using stuff that blows up was a very effective way of facing enemies, why bother go through advancing through energy based weapons when they would be expensive and dangerous?

  • 02.28.2011 9:45 AM PDT

Wake me when the jews are gone.

why would the UNSC develop ground weapons when the wars would be fight in the space

[Edited on 02.28.2011 12:41 PM PST]

  • 02.28.2011 10:18 AM PDT

I've read the books and im fully aware of how the 20 meter kill radius of the Wraith, But have you seen an artillery salvo from an XM2001 Crusader? its unreal. If you think a wraith could go up against an M1A3 (not fielded yet, but will be in a few years) you must be smoking something. Our military maneuvers are much more advanced than the covenants ground doctrine, Our military is built to fight a massive ground, air, and naval war with China and Russia on 2 Major theaters of war. You're not giving us credit.

But i suppose im not giving the Covenant enough credit on their plasma weaponry and advanced technology, but now imagine the US military with equally advanced tech. we would wipe our asses with them.

  • 03.01.2011 12:06 AM PDT

a wraith plasma mortar would vaporize a modern day tank, not just destroy the armor, it would vaporize it.

Not to mention the plasma turret itself would melt through the armor of the tank unsuited to fight plasma weapons.

Wraiths are faster, not to mention they have speed boosts and they are smaller so I'm guessing much cheaper for the covenant than tanks are for us.

  • 03.01.2011 6:10 AM PDT
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Don't be stupid like I was! Check to see what that Forum Ninja is saying to you!

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What we are forgetting here is how powerful Plasma bolts actually are. We must remember that when Plasma hits a target, it burns through that target for 2-3 seconds. Not to mention that the weapons the Covies use don't even shoot plasma.
It was just an original guess made by us of what is coming out of their guns.

This would mean that small arms fire (PP, PR, PG,) can destroy a modern day tank because the substance that is fired out of their guns burns through even Titanium A like butter.

Think of what that would do to modern day steel.
(A bit jumbled up, but I was typing fast)

[Edited on 03.01.2011 1:25 PM PST]

  • 03.01.2011 1:24 PM PDT

"The Emperor Protects"
"Suffer Not To Let The Unclean Live"


Posted by: RotaryCookie
2)
Challenger II MBT; 63 tons, Dorchester/Chobham armour*, 120mm rifled gun, 59/37 kph on/off road

Scorpion MBT; 66 tons, titanium ceramic armour**. 90mm smoothbore gun, 54 kph on road (wiki, although it has never shown to do more than a jogging speed), exposed driver and gunner. Not to mention the raised gun that exposes the hydraulics.



* the specifics are classified but there are many examples of Challengers (and Warrior IFVs) surviving multiple Anti-tank shaped charges.

** If it can't stop super heated plasma, it can't stop anti-tank rounds that cause brute force (non composite) armours like titanium battleplate to melt due to the super-heated plasma generated by the impact.


Result: Challenger II would tear a Scorpion to peices.

While there is no doubt that a Challenger or an Abrams could kill a scorpion i think the scorpion is more meant to be mass produced and deployed in numbers also a modern tank reqires a crew of two or three so if you loose a tank you lose upwards of three men but if you lose a scorpion you lose one dude and maybe a gunner if there is one, not to mention you have to admit the scorpion while not sensible in battle in reality, looks pretty sweet

  • 03.01.2011 1:41 PM PDT

"The Emperor Protects"
"Suffer Not To Let The Unclean Live"

One of the arguments i see here is that the covenant lack any military strategy and what ever is there is flawed.
This is simply not true. Many elites such as R'tas Vandumee and Arbiter were great military minds. R'tas coordinated the containment of delta halo and not to mention was a Spec ops commander before he was shipmaster and before Arbiter was the Arbiter he was a fleet commander at reach who followed the pillar of Autumn to halo, and before that was a Zealot who by the way get to see a lot of combat. Both have much experience in battlefield and it has been shown that the Covenant do use sophisticated tactics. Many times the grunt rush or massed waves can be used as an equivalent to an artillery barrage, used to soften up the enemy lines before moving in with a real force. also when it comes to the tanks the covenant tank, The Wraith is basically a field artillery piece which is highly mobile its main armament is a mortar gun. In most cases if the need is there for a MBT many times hunter teams will be used or things such as locust or in extreme cases scarabs. Also many go by what is seen in the games or mentioned in the current books but i am certain that there is other technology that may also more closely resemble a classic tank on the covenant side

  • 03.01.2011 1:58 PM PDT

Indeed, while the Elites might view the grunts as soldiers, the rate at which grunts reproduce mean they can be used in mass to soften or overwhelm an enemy line before bringing in the real forces.

  • 03.01.2011 2:23 PM PDT

Who cares your still going to play halo reach right???

Soo just stop argueing and play the god dam game!

  • 03.01.2011 10:06 PM PDT

regardless of whether a challenger or scorpion is better, i think the personnel issue was huge for the unsc. they had equipment, but were running out of soldiers to use them - that's part of the reason for the spartan 3 program.

on a battlefield, would you rather be in a challenger as part of a 4 man crew, or a team of four scorpions hunting that single challenger?

  • 03.02.2011 12:59 AM PDT