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Subject: Why Reach's story will never be as good as the other games.

I was originally going to type this up as a response to Hotshot Revan II on the Forerunner Homeworld topic (which somehow got epically derailed into a discusion of Reach's story and how it fails) but I went so far into it I just decided to make it its own topic.

So far in fact I have to make a seperate post to fit all of it into one essay-post.

LONG ASS READ DEAD AHEAD!

tl;dr at the bottom.

  • 02.26.2011 1:25 PM PDT

Posted by: hotshot revan II

[quote]Posted by: ROBERTO jh
I agree with everything here.



Good to know I'm not the only one who thinks this. I often look at Mr. Harry S. Plinkett when thinking of stories from a story perspective. Maybe Bungie can take a leaf out of Plinkett's book and listen to him when writing a story.

Now I'm an ameture novelist and have been for several years. After watching his reviews, specifically the Star Wars reviews, I began looking more logically at the stories I was writing and it worked so well a College Profesor of Journalism that I know was impressed. And I'm only 16!

Not to sound self-impressed, but I'm just trying to make a point. When a 16 year old apparently knows more about writing a story then Bungie, who are amongst the original videogame story tellers and have crafted a brilliant universe, we have a problem.

But I give all credit for what I know now to Mr. Plinkett. Just watching one of his reviews can make you a better story teller by 100%. I actually just got done watching the Attack of the Clones review just now. I honestly think that if Bungie had looked at his reviews before writing the story for Reach (or whichever individual DID write the story) and looked at story telling the way Mr. Plinkett does, then Reach would've been so much better. It truly WOULD have been the best Halo in the series.

But it was the worst, arguably. ODST had a better story because they were like real people that we could relate too, regardless of whether or not you thought they devoloped well. In fact, from a campaign perspective of course, I'd even go as far as saying it was the BEST stand-alone story Bungie has made for Halo.

I always said Halo 2 had the best story because of the metaphors and character devolopment of the Arbiter, but that story is expanded upon in Halo 3, so its not really a stand alone story. ODST is.

It was atmospheric, well cast and it really got the sense we were losing.

See comparing ODST and Reach you notice several differences.

1) The power of the Covenant was not shoved in your face by superior numbers like in Reach.

With Reach it was all enemies all the time. Every corner there'd be another front of grunts and Elites, usually with a vehicle and support races like Drones or Hunters. This worked as a standalone challenge, but overall it can give you what Kaos studios calls "Massacre Fatigue."

Kaos usually aquaits this with human enemies but it can be applied to aliens who have been devoloped to have human characteristics too, even aliens without any human likeness. That is to say that you no longer see the enemies you're killing as part of the story and see them only as obstructions in the world of a videogame and only a videogame. It shatters your ability to immerse yourself in the story and makes you feel unstoppable, and utterly bored, no matter how advanced the AI is. If you're cutting swaths through hundreds at a time, you eventually get bored.

This is ironic--and another contradiction--because the Covenant were suppose to give the impression they were kicking our asses. Sure the world around you was on fire, but you, Noble 6, was like a friggin' tank. The only tension I ever felt was when I fought higher ranking Elites, like Ultras, or Zealots, and maybe a Brute Chieften with a FRG because THEY were virtually unstoppable and helped convey the emotions that all was lost. And we knew it from the very start that Reach was doomed, so it's important to try to make the enemies as mysterious and brutal as possible. You can't really have a story like Reach's when you know the ending, so you need to portray the emotions of the characters and people in the story.

Like Titanic. We knew how it was going to end, but the real story was with the characters and people on the boat because they felt like real people and devoloped over the three hours of the movie.

Reach fails in every way imaginable and even does the exact opposite of what made Titanic a good movie. Its even more of a fail when you consider Bungie was consistently likening Reach with Titanic. I guess they didn't catch the whole emotional part and only watched the sinking, huh?

Now contrast this with ODST. The only levels I really got annoyed with were Uplift Reserve, the very end of Data Hive and that one where you rampaged as Mickey through the streets in a tank.

These parts annoy me because they felt more like a Spartan II then an ODST. You felt more then human. But the City At Night levels were -blam!- ing perfect. The enemies were sporadic but often enough that you stayed on your guard. The whole while though you knew that you were losing.

You were all alone in a city that was abandoned with lightning going off every now and then and the Covenant flying over head in their Phantoms against a burning backdrop. Every single facet about the city at night levels conveyed the emotions Bungie intended: that you were alone and royally screwed, and you damn well knew it. It even broke new ground by straying away from the badass feel of Master Chief and put you against only a few enmies at a time. It gave a sense of mystery to the Covenant and what they were doing, a truly amazing feat since we know everything about them even right down to what they were looking for.

2) The main characters in Reach are uninteresting because they do not feel like real people. Except for Jorge.

Now you can argue that the character devolopment in ODST was just "okay," or not good at all even. That's debatable. It's also not the point.

Who are you more likely to remember? Buck, or Carter? DARE or Kat (characteristiclly bad driving or fugly face not with standing; we're talking story and character here).

ODST's characters were good because we saw their personalities, saw their friendships and got insight into who they are as human beings. Like when Buck and DARE are talking over the radio, we learn they used to be lovers who lived together. We learn that they broke up because Buck learned she was an ONI spook and so couldn't trust her.

We also know that he was at Reach when it fell. All of this compacts into his current character as a stubborn leader who doesn't like joking around. He lost his girlfriend, been at war for way to many years, and saw 500million people get incinerated in one day. This is good insight and gives us some reason to like him because we can at least relate to just another guy who lost his girl, if not the specific circumstances surrounding the seperation (unless, you know, your girlfriend just happens to work for the CIA). Point is, he's a person, and acts like a person just like the other characters do.

But in Reach, only one character acts like a person and that's Jorge. When Jorge saw Sword Base get plasma-nuked from space, you could tell he was sad, could tell he was thinking things that no military robot would think. It was a great way of foreshadowing his death, having him looking solemnly at burning Reach, unsure if the person who had effectively been his mother for 27 years was still alive, and not being able to do anything about it. It was even better knowing this was his home.

But the other characters were dull, boring military androids. When Kat died, did Carter get all choked up like Jorge when Sword 'sploded? No. As a matter of fact, he didn't make a single -blam!- ing mention of her death after that. She was implied in the extended canon to be his "girlfriend," even. He was certaintly close to her since they'd been together the longest. And yet she dies and...nothing.

They instead went back to kicking untold thousands of Covenant asses as if nothing happened.

Then their's the circumstances regarding their deaths. Jorge had motivation to sacrifice himself because he wanted revenge on the Covies for destroying his homeworld. It was a bit convieniant that the remote detonator malfunctioned (*ahem* Armageddon), but it was emotionally worth it.

Though with the other ones...

Kat should've been more attentive of that hole in the ceiling when you consider that entire battle was primarily an aerial battle. Carter should've been able to eat those Banshees alive with his fully functioning 70mm autocanons on the front of his full loaded Pelican. Emile should've been able to vaporize that Phantom with the speed that gun turns, which in turn should've allowed Noble 6 to survive.

Oh but wait: that would ruin the canon I guess, huh?

=_____=

See, ODST was superior in every way because you felt like a human in a human scenario. I don't rag on the Halo Trilogy because the Halo Trilogy was more about the events AND more then just one party of characters. Master Chief was just one guy in a much larger story with other characters around him, all of whom seriously helped him along the way, including guys you never even really met (Medicant Bias).

It was an interesting parallel with the Bible and a metaphorical portrayal of how humanity's own sins come back to haunt them.

"I am a monument to all of your sins." Is more memorable then "Get that Corvette moving and get the hell outta there!"

"If you ever fall for a woman, make sure she's got balls" is better then "I'm ready! How 'bout you!?"

(in fact that Buck line may damn well be one of my favorite lines ever).

tl;dr : So in conclusion, Reach fails because it lacks almost any character and humanity. All of which, ODST had.

Its a shame really: Reach had the potential to truly be the next "Seven Samurai," but it just simply wasn't.

So let's hope 343 can return us to good story telling in Halo.

[Edited on 02.26.2011 1:26 PM PST]

  • 02.26.2011 1:26 PM PDT

1M@N

holy -blam!- thats long

  • 02.26.2011 1:42 PM PDT


Posted by: Spartan00011
holy -blam!- thats long


Yeah, I said the same thing when I spell checked it.

Did you read it though?

  • 02.26.2011 1:45 PM PDT

There was a lot more potential to the game, but, alas!

I wonder what it would have been like if Infinity Ward or Treyarch were the ones that made the Campaign.

[Edited on 02.26.2011 1:48 PM PST]

  • 02.26.2011 1:47 PM PDT


Posted by: Plasma3150
There was a lot more potential to the game, but, alas!

I wonder what it would have been like if Infinity Ward were the ones that made the Campaign.


From a story perspective, bad, if MW2's plothole ridden campaign was the best they could offer.

Though you know what? If it was Joe Statten, who wrote Contact Harvest--one of the best character Halo stories--writing the story AND Infinity Ward doing the military action scenes, it could've been perfect.

You can have good action in a character story, you just need to counter-balance it with, you know, characters.

@Below me.

thanks :)

[Edited on 02.26.2011 1:51 PM PST]

  • 02.26.2011 1:49 PM PDT

1M@N

Posted by: ROBERTO jh

Posted by: Spartan00011
holy -blam!- thats long


Yeah, I said the same thing when I spell checked it.

Did you read it though?

i finished reading it right now and all i have to say is good post

  • 02.26.2011 1:49 PM PDT

If you can read this, that means I'm not a Shaolin monk...

yet.

Very true.

  • 02.26.2011 2:58 PM PDT

Man is born free but everywhere he is in chains.

I actually really liked ODST and its story. It was far better than Reach's story, which consisted of "SHOOT THE COVENANT" over and over again.

I will say, however, that Bungie is fantastic at setting a mood:

-The Halo Trilogy story arc had a heroic, back-against-the-wall suspenseful sci-fi mood.
-ODST had film noir traits (a mystery, clues, rain, sexy saxophone music, etc.)
-Reach set an excellent mood of loss and defeat in the level Exodus. I sincerely felt bad after playing that mission; watching civilian transports being shot down, and seeing bodies strewn about the streets.

  • 02.26.2011 3:40 PM PDT


Posted by: Lyme1331
I actually really liked ODST and its story. It was far better than Reach's story, which consisted of "SHOOT THE COVENANT" over and over again.

I will say, however, that Bungie is fantastic at setting a mood:

-The Halo Trilogy story arc had a heroic, back-against-the-wall suspenseful sci-fi mood.
-ODST had film noir traits (a mystery, clues, rain, sexy saxophone music, etc.)
-Reach set an excellent mood of loss and defeat in the level Exodus. I sincerely felt bad after playing that mission; watching civilian transports being shot down, and seeing bodies strewn about the streets.


Yeah, me too.

Reach had its moments, usually with Jorge, but there was the occasional moment as well. I would've made a point about Exodus, but I only had 200 figures left so just left it.

Its my favorite level too in Reach. The ending of Long Night of Solace gives me chills, and works perfectly in transition to the level Exodus.

Its just that the cons outweigh the pros, IMO.

  • 02.26.2011 3:49 PM PDT
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  • Exalted Legendary Member

UWG

My jokes, so I don't lose them (ignore this):
ZedFish's Opinion on Sgt. Foley.
ZedFish's Forerunner Rickroll.

Posted by: ROBERTO jh
Its my favorite level too in Reach. The ending of Long Night of Solace gives me chills, and works perfectly in transition to the level Exodus.
And the "Make him proud" line at the start of New Alexandria.
That was great. Much more emotionally hard-hitting than Kat's death after it.

  • 02.26.2011 5:50 PM PDT


Posted by: ZedFish
Posted by: ROBERTO jh
Its my favorite level too in Reach. The ending of Long Night of Solace gives me chills, and works perfectly in transition to the level Exodus.
And the "Make him proud" line at the start of New Alexandria.
That was great. Much more emotionally hard-hitting than Kat's death after it.


Its scenes like this I like. Personally, Reach had some of the best cutscenes in the series because of things like this.

Its just that I always got the impression the emotional moments in the last half of the game were forced once they started knocking off Noble team like flies. In some cases it worked, like 6 overlookig the abanoned city in a Pelican, but the others were there simply because it was supposed to be there.

Kat's death was a lame excuse for an emotional scene and it had one of the saddest songs in the game. They realised at this point that they had run out of game ideas and needed to start axing the characters fast, regardless of whether or not they were well devoloped.

See Bungie made a serious mistake with Reach and that they turned it from a good character story into an emotionless action movie.

I understand as game devolopers they had this mind set, but from a story perspective, which is why a lot of people buy the Halo games initially--for the story--you need to focus on the story first and not the epic action moments you can include with your shiny new graphics engine.

This is why Modern Warfare 2's "story" sucked so hard. And that was ALWAYS an action game, yet it got SO action heavy the story was an after thought.

Bungie failed because they wanted these epic action pieces in the game and the story was merely a means to get from one action set to another. There's "emotional" moments in Die Hard, but is that still ultimately a mindless action film? Yes! And its because of this the emotion doesn't work.

Difference is, people were expecting Die Hard to be an actionmovie.

But after seeing this what do you think people expected? An emotionless action movie Modern Warfare style? No!

I thought the whole game was going to be this dark, depressing, and extremely sad story of loss and sacrifice in the face of insurmountable odds.

Instead it was a dark and depressingly sloppy action movie that conveyed only two real scenes of emotion in a story filled with death.

Now to much emotion isn't good either, like in Final Fantasy 13. I really didn't give a -blam!- about that entire story. It is now officially my most hated game I've ever played because of how insultingly inhuman it was.

You need to establish the characters subtley before we can give a crap. Reach started out just fine in this regard, and there was some good moments of characterization.

The second half should've been the dark part where it all hits the fan. Which it was, but the problem is it wasnt done very well.

The game was suppose to be boots in the mud down in the dirt kind of deal. The last act was filled instead with helicopter raids, space battles, vehicular chase scenes, flying around with a jetpack and so on. None of that is boots in the mud, just more Master Chief stuff.

What they should have done is reverse the game from a gameplay perspective to fit the story more. Have the more epic and high scale vehicle chase sequences and war going on with you actually in the middle of the war right from the get go, and at the end of the game have the Noble Team in the abandoned city streets trying to rally what's left of the human resistance. They could rally them to a central plaza maybe, only to be attacked and overwhelmed, which really puts the nail in the proverbial coffin for the UNSC. Have this the battle where Kat dies, but do it slowly, and painfully to illicit an emotional response from Carter as he's forced to evacuate and leave his long-time friend behind. End the final cutscene with a shot of a Covenant Cruiser incinerating the city.

This'll do several things

1) Actually have Kat's death have some mening to both the player and the characters

2) It'll symbolically represent the Covenant's dominance over humanity by having you squandering in the streets looking for survivors while they fly in these massive ships overhead, torching the rest of the city.

3) It'll have an epic Saving Private Ryan D-Day-like battle cutscene involving the last of the UNSC and the Covenant, also the one where Kat dies.

4) This doubles as a perfect oppurtunity to create some stunning cinemtography with Bungie's new film techniques. Remember how they compared Reach's cutscenes to war journalism in war movies, and that every shot would be like a guy filming you except for when a ship was filming overhead? Yeah, what happened to that?

5) It'll add some emotion

Hey Bungie: we're not going to feel sad because someone we don't care about died and there happened to be a piano involved!

Music, while helpful, is an extension of a scene that already has an established emotion. No pre-established emotion=no emotion at all, music regardless.

Music can really change the mood of scene. I often refer to it as a plot device unto itself, but the imagary and story needs to go with the music to work.

As a matter of fact, I think I might write how I imagined the battle of New Alexandria should've looked to be truly boots in the mud. Might even post it on here if I think its good enough.

Eh, just a thought. I'm not really a fan of fan-fiction posts, but I might do it.

[Edited on 02.26.2011 6:30 PM PST]

  • 02.26.2011 6:28 PM PDT

If you can read this, that means I'm not a Shaolin monk...

yet.


Posted by: ROBERTO jh
Eh, just a thought. I'm not really a fan of fan-fiction posts, but I might do it.

Go ahead.

  • 02.26.2011 7:25 PM PDT


Posted by: ROBERTO jh

Posted by: ZedFish
Posted by: ROBERTO jh
Its my favorite level too in Reach. The ending of Long Night of Solace gives me chills, and works perfectly in transition to the level Exodus.
And the "Make him proud" line at the start of New Alexandria.
That was great. Much more emotionally hard-hitting than Kat's death after it.


Its scenes like this I like. Personally, Reach had some of the best cutscenes in the series because of things like this.

Its just that I always got the impression the emotional moments in the last half of the game were forced once they started knocking off Noble team like flies. In some cases it worked, like 6 overlookig the abanoned city in a Pelican, but the others were there simply because it was supposed to be there.

Kat's death was a lame excuse for an emotional scene and it had one of the saddest songs in the game. They realised at this point that they had run out of game ideas and needed to start axing the characters fast, regardless of whether or not they were well devoloped.

See Bungie made a serious mistake with Reach and that they turned it from a good character story into an emotionless action movie.

I understand as game devolopers they had this mind set, but from a story perspective, which is why a lot of people buy the Halo games initially--for the story--you need to focus on the story first and not the epic action moments you can include with your shiny new graphics engine.

This is why Modern Warfare 2's "story" sucked so hard. And that was ALWAYS an action game, yet it got SO action heavy the story was an after thought.

Bungie failed because they wanted these epic action pieces in the game and the story was merely a means to get from one action set to another. There's "emotional" moments in Die Hard, but is that still ultimately a mindless action film? Yes! And its because of this the emotion doesn't work.

Difference is, people were expecting Die Hard to be an actionmovie.

But after seeing this what do you think people expected? An emotionless action movie Modern Warfare style? No!

I thought the whole game was going to be this dark, depressing, and extremely sad story of loss and sacrifice in the face of insurmountable odds.

Instead it was a dark and depressingly sloppy action movie that conveyed only two real scenes of emotion in a story filled with death.

Now to much emotion isn't good either, like in Final Fantasy 13. I really didn't give a -blam!- about that entire story. It is now officially my most hated game I've ever played because of how insultingly inhuman it was.

You need to establish the characters subtley before we can give a crap. Reach started out just fine in this regard, and there was some good moments of characterization.

The second half should've been the dark part where it all hits the fan. Which it was, but the problem is it wasnt done very well.

The game was suppose to be boots in the mud down in the dirt kind of deal. The last act was filled instead with helicopter raids, space battles, vehicular chase scenes, flying around with a jetpack and so on. None of that is boots in the mud, just more Master Chief stuff.

What they should have done is reverse the game from a gameplay perspective to fit the story more. Have the more epic and high scale vehicle chase sequences and war going on with you actually in the middle of the war right from the get go, and at the end of the game have the Noble Team in the abandoned city streets trying to rally what's left of the human resistance. They could rally them to a central plaza maybe, only to be attacked and overwhelmed, which really puts the nail in the proverbial coffin for the UNSC. Have this the battle where Kat dies, but do it slowly, and painfully to illicit an emotional response from Carter as he's forced to evacuate and leave his long-time friend behind. End the final cutscene with a shot of a Covenant Cruiser incinerating the city.

This'll do several things

1) Actually have Kat's death have some mening to both the player and the characters

2) It'll symbolically represent the Covenant's dominance over humanity by having you squandering in the streets looking for survivors while they fly in these massive ships overhead, torching the rest of the city.

3) It'll have an epic Saving Private Ryan D-Day-like battle cutscene involving the last of the UNSC and the Covenant, also the one where Kat dies.

4) This doubles as a perfect oppurtunity to create some stunning cinemtography with Bungie's new film techniques. Remember how they compared Reach's cutscenes to war journalism in war movies, and that every shot would be like a guy filming you except for when a ship was filming overhead? Yeah, what happened to that?

5) It'll add some emotion

Hey Bungie: we're not going to feel sad because someone we don't care about died and there happened to be a piano involved!

Music, while helpful, is an extension of a scene that already has an established emotion. No pre-established emotion=no emotion at all, music regardless.

Music can really change the mood of scene. I often refer to it as a plot device unto itself, but the imagary and story needs to go with the music to work.

As a matter of fact, I think I might write how I imagined the battle of New Alexandria should've looked to be truly boots in the mud. Might even post it on here if I think its good enough.

Eh, just a thought. I'm not really a fan of fan-fiction posts, but I might do it.
well you can gain more from nobble on how thay move and how they act towards each other, such as the power towards emille and jorge or how kat can get carter to make LNOS a reality, you just need to look past certan aspects of the cutscenes to see everything

  • 02.26.2011 7:37 PM PDT


Posted by: Alf stewert

Posted by: ROBERTO jh

Posted by: ZedFish
Posted by: ROBERTO jh
Its my favorite level too in Reach. The ending of Long Night of Solace gives me chills, and works perfectly in transition to the level Exodus.
And the "Make him proud" line at the start of New Alexandria.
That was great. Much more emotionally hard-hitting than Kat's death after it.


Its scenes like this I like. Personally, Reach had some of the best cutscenes in the series because of things like this.

Its just that I always got the impression the emotional moments in the last half of the game were forced once they started knocking off Noble team like flies. In some cases it worked, like 6 overlookig the abanoned city in a Pelican, but the others were there simply because it was supposed to be there.

Kat's death was a lame excuse for an emotional scene and it had one of the saddest songs in the game. They realised at this point that they had run out of game ideas and needed to start axing the characters fast, regardless of whether or not they were well devoloped.

See Bungie made a serious mistake with Reach and that they turned it from a good character story into an emotionless action movie.

I understand as game devolopers they had this mind set, but from a story perspective, which is why a lot of people buy the Halo games initially--for the story--you need to focus on the story first and not the epic action moments you can include with your shiny new graphics engine.

This is why Modern Warfare 2's "story" sucked so hard. And that was ALWAYS an action game, yet it got SO action heavy the story was an after thought.

Bungie failed because they wanted these epic action pieces in the game and the story was merely a means to get from one action set to another. There's "emotional" moments in Die Hard, but is that still ultimately a mindless action film? Yes! And its because of this the emotion doesn't work.

Difference is, people were expecting Die Hard to be an actionmovie.

But after seeing this what do you think people expected? An emotionless action movie Modern Warfare style? No!

I thought the whole game was going to be this dark, depressing, and extremely sad story of loss and sacrifice in the face of insurmountable odds.

Instead it was a dark and depressingly sloppy action movie that conveyed only two real scenes of emotion in a story filled with death.

Now to much emotion isn't good either, like in Final Fantasy 13. I really didn't give a -blam!- about that entire story. It is now officially my most hated game I've ever played because of how insultingly inhuman it was.

You need to establish the characters subtley before we can give a crap. Reach started out just fine in this regard, and there was some good moments of characterization.

The second half should've been the dark part where it all hits the fan. Which it was, but the problem is it wasnt done very well.

The game was suppose to be boots in the mud down in the dirt kind of deal. The last act was filled instead with helicopter raids, space battles, vehicular chase scenes, flying around with a jetpack and so on. None of that is boots in the mud, just more Master Chief stuff.

What they should have done is reverse the game from a gameplay perspective to fit the story more. Have the more epic and high scale vehicle chase sequences and war going on with you actually in the middle of the war right from the get go, and at the end of the game have the Noble Team in the abandoned city streets trying to rally what's left of the human resistance. They could rally them to a central plaza maybe, only to be attacked and overwhelmed, which really puts the nail in the proverbial coffin for the UNSC. Have this the battle where Kat dies, but do it slowly, and painfully to illicit an emotional response from Carter as he's forced to evacuate and leave his long-time friend behind. End the final cutscene with a shot of a Covenant Cruiser incinerating the city.

This'll do several things

1) Actually have Kat's death have some mening to both the player and the characters

2) It'll symbolically represent the Covenant's dominance over humanity by having you squandering in the streets looking for survivors while they fly in these massive ships overhead, torching the rest of the city.

3) It'll have an epic Saving Private Ryan D-Day-like battle cutscene involving the last of the UNSC and the Covenant, also the one where Kat dies.

4) This doubles as a perfect oppurtunity to create some stunning cinemtography with Bungie's new film techniques. Remember how they compared Reach's cutscenes to war journalism in war movies, and that every shot would be like a guy filming you except for when a ship was filming overhead? Yeah, what happened to that?

5) It'll add some emotion

Hey Bungie: we're not going to feel sad because someone we don't care about died and there happened to be a piano involved!

Music, while helpful, is an extension of a scene that already has an established emotion. No pre-established emotion=no emotion at all, music regardless.

Music can really change the mood of scene. I often refer to it as a plot device unto itself, but the imagary and story needs to go with the music to work.

As a matter of fact, I think I might write how I imagined the battle of New Alexandria should've looked to be truly boots in the mud. Might even post it on here if I think its good enough.

Eh, just a thought. I'm not really a fan of fan-fiction posts, but I might do it.
well you can gain more from nobble on how thay move and how they act towards each other, such as the power towards emille and jorge or how kat can get carter to make LNOS a reality, you just need to look past certan aspects of the cutscenes to see everything


As I said, I like Reach's cutscenes the most. I just don't think Reach fit well with the mood that Bungie established it would have in the Deliver Hope Trailer and vid-docs.

In fact, that Deliver Hope Trailer is more powerful then the entire game at once. I thought that trailer was supposed to be like a mood setter fotr the game.

It wasn't.

Now I know what you're saying, but that's not enough to get attached to the characters in the span of nine levels. Especially when they started getting axed five levels in, and almost none of the levels had the whole team together.

  • 02.26.2011 7:43 PM PDT

In all honesty, no one really gives a rats arse about one reviewer and his opinions, no matter how good they may be. I cannot really speak anything in favor or not in favor of Plinkett as I have never seen any of his reviews, however I will say this, one of the most important things I've learned about writing a story, whether for a film, a book, a play, or a video game, is that the reviewer/critic is not always right or even accurate. For instance there are a great deal of movies that I've seen that were nor very favorably received by the critics, which I however enjoyed the hell out of and are some of my favorites. And another thing, practice is what makes you a better writer, not some professional or amateur reviewer, they may get you thinking more critically, but ultimately any improvement is in your hands and is the result of your own efforts in conjunction with feedback you receive that will make you improve. That being said, now moving on to dissecting the rest of this wordy, word stew :P (not saying wordy is bad, just saying it is wordy ;P ).

In response to section 1:
I personally was very pleased with how Reach turned out, it was everything I was expecting it to be, and I saw all the trailers and such just like you did, my expectations were high, and I was not really let down. I wouldn't call Reach the best story Bungie has done (I personally don't think there is any "best" amongst the stories in the various Halo games), but it is most definitely NOT the worst. Imo, people are only dissapointed with the game because they over-hyped themselves for it and were setting their expectations way too high.

I really did not feel overburdened by enemies, if anything it helped me feel the scale and gravity of it all much better than I did in the other Halo games, with exclusion of the levels in the Covenant ships or strictly Covenant areas I really didn't feel like I was fighting a war for humanities' survival, it felt much more like a series of a small scale battle by two under-equipped sides. And no matter what the game, I have never felt like the enemy AIs are anything more than obstacles to beat into submission and out of my way. That is natural, you are supposed to feel powerful whenever you play as a Spartan, because that is what the Spartans were. However I did feel like Humanity was gets its ass handed to them on a silver platter, I knew this and felt this from looking out at the background images and from listening to dialogue going on around me.

And frankly, I disagree with you about the levels played as the Rookie, until the end I felt like they were the very worst part of the game, they were quite boring to me. I never felt at all screwed when playing as the Rookie, I certainly got the loneliness and the whole "city is dead" feeling and vibe, but I never felt screwed once. I never felt any mystery to what they were doing either, the only mystery was what Dare was up to, we knew why the Covenant was there, and we knew what they were doing. The Rookie missions I wanted to get overwith as fast as possible, aside from finding the audio logs for Sady's Story, there was absolutely nothing going on and nothing really to promote playing those levels, if you ask me, they were the weakest levels in the whole Halo Saga.

In response to section 2:
I will give you that Carter was a rather weak character and probably the weakest in Reach, however I think all the rest of the characters within the game were just as well developed as in any other Halo game, with Jorge being the strongest and most developed in Reach's story.

One flaw in your comparison between the Squad and Noble Team is that Noble are composed of Spartans, and they were meant to live their lives in service to the UNSC and her colonies and defending them, they are not going to show all that much personality. Whereas the Squad have all grown up leading normal lives, they have a life outside the military they go back to when off duty. Spartans? They have no real life other than the military, they are not going to be emotional the same way as people who have developed and been shaped by other factors than the military.

Carter did the thing a good leader would, he did not show his true emotions, he put what he felt aside for the good of the mission, which was defending Reach to the death or the order to retreat was given. And even if he does not really express too much emotion over Kat's death obviously, you can never the less still notice it if you look. Like for instance, after she dies he is the one carrying and cradling her body as they wait for extraction, and in the next level you can tell from his voice that he has lost a lot of his drive and is extremely worn and exhausted emotionally, both from Kat's death and the inherent fall of Reach weighing heavily on him.

It may have been possible to kill the Banshees, however, the Pelican lacked any armaments capable of taking out the Phantom, if they had turned to fight, the Pelican would have been shot down, so no real problem with Carter's death. Kat was not acting any different than the rest of Noble had, it could have just as easily been one of them who died there as it had been Kat, she is merely the one chosen to "off" at that moment, and I didn't feel all that saddened by her death at first, I always feel saddened at that part of the game every time now. And as for Emile's death? It was hardly unavoidable, for starters, the Phantom came from below the Onager and thus out of its range, and when it did come in range there was not enough time to fire anything off.

ODST and Reach are both excellent games, you may feel inclined to disagree and think one is better than the other, I however think both are excellent games and explorations into the heart of humanity. I don't think any Halo game is better than any of the others, they are all different and special in their own way.

As for the lines you are comparing, the first is completely mismatched, it is like comparing apples to a head of lettuce.

The second, you're a bit closer on this one, but still not the same. I find Emile's last words quite memorable, it is not just the line that makes something memorable but the actions that go with it. For instance, in and of itself, Master Chief's line about "giving the Covenant back their bomb." is not really all that memorable by itself.

TL;DR: Reach is an excellent addition to the Halo series and is just as good as any of the other installments. With great characters, excellent environment, and a highly enjoyable and engaging story.

  • 04.22.2011 10:54 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Well, I already believe Reach's story is better than Halo 3's. Halo 3 was good when I first played through it, but looking back, I don't feel the same fondness. Reach may end up the same way, but for now, it's not.

  • 04.22.2011 10:58 PM PDT

Have you seen my mind anywhere? I seem to have lost it...

0x0 x0x 0x0 000 000 x0x 000
x0x 0x0 0x0 0xx 000 0x0 000
x0x x0x x00 0xx 0x0 x0x 0x0

I have seen you future

I am not a fan of Reach's story. I have made several posts trying to figure out exactly what it is that makes it lacking. I have blamed NOBLE's colorfulness, bad voice acting and bad characters among other things. You make a very compelling case for the lack of character development, but I am going to disagree with you about that being the true reason that Reach didn't live up to its storytelling potential.

The real reason that Reach's story didn't work is that Bungie didn't use the inevitability to its full potential. The movie that has done this extremely well is United 93. (I know a movie about September 11 will be more emotional than a movie about a fictional planet.) For the sake of this I am going to focus on the ending. The whole movie you know that the movie ends with the plane crashing in a field in Pennsylvania. What Paul Greengrass did, instead of making the situation seem hopeless for the last half of the movie, gave you hope. Once the passengers start planning he makes it seem like they are going to take back the plane and live happily ever after. It's not until the end, when you look out the cockpit windows and see the field growing closer that you are forced to realize that everyone on that plane is going to die.

Reach did something similar to this, with the part of the story that ends in LNoS, where you destroy the supercarrier in the hopes that it will save Reach. The problem was that after the larger fleet showed up the game basically says "you're screwed" and the rest of the game is trying to save some civilians, trying to stop the Covenant from getting some intel (sort of, still adds to the no hope atmostphere) and getting a small part of an AI off of the planet.

What they should have done is something where you feel like you have a chance to save the planet, right up until the very end. At the start of the last mission you should look up to see slipspace ruptures for over 100 ships. Instead of delivering Cortana to the Pillar of Autumn you should have to (insert Reach-saving plot device here). Just as you're about to stop it (not so close that it's overly cliche, but close enough that you feel as though you're going to make it). That new fleet starts glassing Reach.

  • 04.22.2011 11:27 PM PDT

I agree with everything the OP said. Like really everything. Also what the CTN guy said.

[Edited on 04.22.2011 11:33 PM PDT]

  • 04.22.2011 11:31 PM PDT

I started up the heated debate on whether the SPARTAN-II in the cryo tube near the end of Reach is really Linda.
I created the Moa XING avatar pic.
Also I earned the All Star nameplate with this submission to Week 14 All Stars http://www.bungie.net/images/News/Inline11/bwu_0415/art/likea boss.jpg

1. The Forerunner homeworld is Ghilbab. It's full of radiation and is uninhabitable.
2. Halo 2 owns all Halo campaigns.

  • 04.22.2011 11:34 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: ImmortalJoshua
1. The Forerunner homeworld is Ghilbab. It's full of radiation and is uninhabitable.
2. Halo 2 owns all Halo campaigns.

Combat Evolved and ODST both beat Halo 2. Halo 2 will forever have the unpopulat Arbiter missions and that awful cliffhanger.

  • 04.22.2011 11:36 PM PDT

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Well, I already believe Reach's story is better than Halo 3's. Halo 3 was good when I first played through it, but looking back, I don't feel the same fondness. Reach may end up the same way, but for now, it's not.

I agree and kind of don't.
I personally like Halo 3 more because it was something we all been waiting for. The fight to be finished. I'd say there were more parts in Halo 3 that gave me chills then Reach but Reach certainly had H3 a run for its money.

It's also hard to bond to characters that were introduced in 1 game, then like the Master Chief saga where you feel MC care for Cortana, the death of Johnson, finding out Keys is now a flood (he is definitely and exception to what I stated above), and the hatred towards the Gravemind, or the prophets lies.

And then there's ODST
Which in my personal opinion just kicked utter ass... This is by far my favorite Halo game. Everything felt right about it.

[Edited on 04.22.2011 11:40 PM PDT]

  • 04.22.2011 11:38 PM PDT


Posted by: ROBERTO jh

Posted by: Plasma3150
There was a lot more potential to the game, but, alas!

I wonder what it would have been like if Infinity Ward were the ones that made the Campaign.


From a story perspective, bad, if MW2's plothole ridden campaign was the best they could offer.

Though you know what? If it was Joe Statten, who wrote Contact Harvest--one of the best character Halo stories--writing the story AND Infinity Ward doing the military action scenes, it could've been perfect.

You can have good action in a character story, you just need to counter-balance it with, you know, characters.

@Below me.

thanks :)

Joe Staten did write the story. Also, although MW2's story was a mess, the characters felt believable, likeable and they weren't cheesy. They also did a good job at conveying epic battles and drama.

  • 04.22.2011 11:59 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: xgeua

Posted by: ROBERTO jh

Posted by: Plasma3150
There was a lot more potential to the game, but, alas!

I wonder what it would have been like if Infinity Ward were the ones that made the Campaign.


From a story perspective, bad, if MW2's plothole ridden campaign was the best they could offer.

Though you know what? If it was Joe Statten, who wrote Contact Harvest--one of the best character Halo stories--writing the story AND Infinity Ward doing the military action scenes, it could've been perfect.

You can have good action in a character story, you just need to counter-balance it with, you know, characters.

@Below me.

thanks :)

Joe Staten did write the story. Also, although MW2's story was a mess, the characters felt believable, likeable and they weren't cheesy. They also did a good job at conveying epic battles and drama.

Not too hard when you have millions of explosions and border on the unbelievable.

  • 04.23.2011 12:02 AM PDT

My YouTube Channel
Bungiepedia Page

"Sometimes life gives you lemons, and then you have to say 'f**k the lemons' and bail."

If you're reading this, you need to stop stalking me. If you can't stop stalking me, you might as well go here.

Posted by: ROBERTO jh
Contact Harvest--one of the best character Halo stories
Thank you!

Finally; someone who sees the light!

  • 04.23.2011 12:13 AM PDT

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