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Subject: Bungie's Ability to Write a Good Story


Posted by: gst353
Apparently, the UNSC and the Covenant also seem to have gone back to using mass charges as their strategy, as evidenced by the intro cutscene for "Tip of the Spear. A clear demonstration of Bungie's complete ignorance to modern military strategy. Would it have been so hard, what with Halo being a big-budget game, to hire a military consultant like Treyarch/IW have done in the past in order to avoid making blunders like that?


Don't shoot until you see the whites of their eyes.

I have honestly thought that most of the Halo game's stories have gotten worse. ODST was a bright spot to me. That's my opinion though.

[Edited on 02.28.2011 7:56 PM PST]

  • 02.28.2011 7:54 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: ninjakenzen
Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: ninjakenzen
I agree, if somehow Eric Nylund had a direct involvement in the actual story department of the in-game Halo cutscenes, i think most of us will be satisfied from a Canon and Great storytelling point of view.

If Eric Nylund had his way, the entirety of Reach's campaign would have been three missions.

1. Go to Circumference
2. Defend Generator
3. Wander CASTLE Base

So fun. /sarcasm

Noticed i had said cut scene. However those missions would have been of Storytelling quality.

I would take those 3 missions that epically capture the feel of importance in a doomed tragic struggle, then 10 over dragged out missions with generic,annoying characters and pre-establish canon breaking story. Which forever will haunt the Halo Universe.

Not even. Honestly, Exodus trounces all 3. Please, The Fall of Reach isn;t as good as people say it is.

  • 02.28.2011 7:55 PM PDT

If you're passionate about the thing you're talking about, I'll always lend an ear.

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Not even. Honestly, Exodus trounces all 3. Please, The Fall of Reach isn;t as good as people say it is.

Well that's your opinion. I respect that.
I enjoyed exodus to a limited extent, however it was very lackluster in terms of pushing forward potential plot.

  • 02.28.2011 8:24 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: ninjakenzen
Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Not even. Honestly, Exodus trounces all 3. Please, The Fall of Reach isn;t as good as people say it is.

Well that's your opinion. I respect that.
I enjoyed exodus to a limited extent, however it was very lackluster in terms of pushing forward potential plot.

Seemed fairly good at pushing the "We are losing this battle" plot pretty well.

  • 02.28.2011 8:28 PM PDT

Have you seen my mind anywhere? I seem to have lost it...

0x0 x0x 0x0 000 000 x0x 000
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I have seen you future

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: ninjakenzen
Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Not even. Honestly, Exodus trounces all 3. Please, The Fall of Reach isn;t as good as people say it is.

Well that's your opinion. I respect that.
I enjoyed exodus to a limited extent, however it was very lackluster in terms of pushing forward potential plot.

Seemed fairly good at pushing the "We are losing this battle" plot pretty well.

Exodus did a good job of showing that the UNSC was losing the fight, and that it affected civilians. It was also the one mission that fit well with canon.

That said, it had a couple small things wrong with it. One example would be the civilians you are supposed to keep alive until the elevator arrives not getting on the elevator. Small, but it breaks immersion.

  • 02.28.2011 8:38 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: CTN 0452 9
Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: ninjakenzen
Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Not even. Honestly, Exodus trounces all 3. Please, The Fall of Reach isn;t as good as people say it is.

Well that's your opinion. I respect that.
I enjoyed exodus to a limited extent, however it was very lackluster in terms of pushing forward potential plot.

Seemed fairly good at pushing the "We are losing this battle" plot pretty well.

Exodus did a good job of showing that the UNSC was losing the fight, and that it affected civilians. It was also the one mission that fit well with canon.

That said, it had a couple small things wrong with it. One example would be the civilians you are supposed to keep alive until the elevator arrives not getting on the elevator. Small, but it breaks immersion.

It does, but at the time I just kept going not thinking too much about it. Always thought they'd get into another elevator.

  • 02.28.2011 8:40 PM PDT

If you're passionate about the thing you're talking about, I'll always lend an ear.

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Seemed fairly good at pushing the "We are losing this battle" plot pretty well.

Yeah i guess so, especially when a lone wolf Spartan can just mop down all the covenants offences and activate a button that destroys covenant ships with ease. Only for civilians to run around helpless to really capture the we're hopeless feel.

  • 02.28.2011 8:42 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: ninjakenzen
Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Seemed fairly good at pushing the "We are losing this battle" plot pretty well.

Yeah i guess so, especially when a lone wolf Spartan can just mop down all the covenants offences and activate a button that destroys covenant ships with ease. Only for civilians to run around helpless to really capture the we're hopeless feel.

Ignore the civilian transport going down and the frantic communications of the remaining transports trying to flee some more.

  • 02.28.2011 8:46 PM PDT

If you're passionate about the thing you're talking about, I'll always lend an ear.

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Ignore the civilian transport going down and the frantic communications of the remaining transports trying to flee some more.

Is that scene alone able to capture the "We're losing this battle" theme for you. It was pretty powerful but the same thing happened in Arcadia in Halo Wars, yet that was more intense IMO as you had a direct effect in saving these ships rather then a cop-out switch.

In the end it's subjective for the most part. If you think the campaign did a great job at conveying Reach's downfall. Good for you. However, i grossly disagree.

  • 02.28.2011 8:52 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: ninjakenzen
Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Ignore the civilian transport going down and the frantic communications of the remaining transports trying to flee some more.

Is that scene alone able to capture the "We're losing this battle" theme for you. It was pretty powerful but the same thing happened in Arcadia in Halo Wars, yet that was more intense IMO as you had a direct effect in saving these ships rather then a cop-out switch.

In the end it's subjective for the most part. If you think the campaign did a great job at conveying Reach's downfall. Good for you. However, i grossly disagree.

Then we see Kat asking the question, "Are we losing?, we see Reach starting to get glassed, and then you lose, your life.

I could go on, but I know you won't agree.

  • 02.28.2011 8:56 PM PDT

I guess I'm the one person that enjoyed all of their stories? CE, 2, and 3 were great in my opinion, and then ODST took a pleasant turn by showing a regular soldier fighting the Covenant. I read Fall of Reach, which was great, but I wasn't pleased with the entire planet being lost in ONE space battle. :\ Reach filled in that gap I had from the end of Fall of Reach and I was greatly pleased with its story. I even liked all the Spartans for their own ways and felt for them as they started to get picked off.

  • 02.28.2011 9:08 PM PDT

If you're passionate about the thing you're talking about, I'll always lend an ear.

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Then we see Kat asking the question, "Are we losing?, we see Reach starting to get glassed, and then you lose, your life.

I could go on, but I know you won't agree.

I'm not saying Halo:Reach didn't have its moments where you were told you we're losing this fight. I'm just saying they could have portrayed it in such a way that they didn't need to ask you. Where it made sence you were losing.

Examples:

Instead of mopping down Covenant after covenant singlehandedly in Exodus. How about we actually back out from the fight, make the switch unachievable.That show's we're losing, doing something that we want to do but can't. The covenant actually overwhelming us that we have no more support that the UNSC could provide. They only tacked this on during the end.

How about the actual dependence on MAC stations. They played a crucial role in the Halo Universe. Somehow they got dismissed.
In the Fall of Reach the MAC stations actually were the deciding factor into how Reach was defending itself.

Ground engagements meant something, in Generator defence. It meant that if the generator went down, a MAC station went down. Meaning more Covie Troops. You were indirectly saving Reach by saving the Generaters.

What made this so Tragic and sad is that no matter what you could do, you were going to lose, it was a losing battle, yet as a Spartan, with all that training, the onslaught of covenant was just too much. The Navy in space depended on you as much as you depended on them.

It was a relationship that helped shape the sad Fall of Reach.

Completely gone.

Tacked on by gimmicky space battles, sudden hidden covenant cruisers, Special-Op units that aren't in the slightest Spec-OP
candidates. The music and some silent epic skyboxes and single screens save this game from complete failure.

The game story had so much potential, to me it was wasted. Sure it had some moments, but it's not the same.

The 1st trailer for this game had me thinking it was going in the right direction. The Glassing, the stuggle. The dark grim serious nature. As you can see here.

They went back on this, scapped it. That's why i don't meet eye to eye with your views.

When i hear "The covenant are on Reach" in the 1st level, i have no choice but to cringe. That one line foreshadows this entire game for me.

  • 02.28.2011 9:14 PM PDT
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CoD is a good game, even if the Halo series are better in some aspects. Anyone who insults either is just bad in that game. Grow up.


Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: ninjakenzen
I agree, if somehow Eric Nylund had a direct involvement in the actual story department of the in-game Halo cutscenes, i think most of us will be satisfied from a Canon and Great storytelling point of view.

If Eric Nylund had his way, the entirety of Reach's campaign would have been three missions.

1. Go to Circumference
2. Defend Generator
3. Wander CASTLE Base

So fun. /sarcasm


It didn't have to follow TFoR. It could have simply adhered to it. They could have done the missions for Noble Team, simply make it FIT within the time frame projected by previous sources. On the other hand, they could have easily chosen to show what happened to the rest of the Spartan IIs who were sent to defend the ODPs, we have practically no info on what happened to them.

  • 02.28.2011 9:14 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: Beowolfe

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: ninjakenzen
I agree, if somehow Eric Nylund had a direct involvement in the actual story department of the in-game Halo cutscenes, i think most of us will be satisfied from a Canon and Great storytelling point of view.

If Eric Nylund had his way, the entirety of Reach's campaign would have been three missions.

1. Go to Circumference
2. Defend Generator
3. Wander CASTLE Base

So fun. /sarcasm


It didn't have to follow TFoR. It could have simply adhered to it. They could have done the missions for Noble Team, simply make it FIT within the time frame projected by previous sources. On the other hand, they could have easily chosen to show what happened to the rest of the Spartan IIs who were sent to defend the ODPs, we have practically no info on what happened to them.

They died, how could you not come to that conclusion?

  • 02.28.2011 9:19 PM PDT

AFK: Away from Kontroller. Don't do it or you'll get the living crap smacked out of you by the Banhammer. If you disagree with any of this, you are just bad at Mortal Kombat.


Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: ninjakenzen
I agree, if somehow Eric Nylund had a direct involvement in the actual story department of the in-game Halo cutscenes, i think most of us will be satisfied from a Canon and Great storytelling point of view.

If Eric Nylund had his way, the entirety of Reach's campaign would have been three missions.

1. Go to Circumference
2. Defend Generator
3. Wander CASTLE Base

So fun. /sarcasm


He if had his way, the story would have been much better, not to mention it would fit in the canon Reach doesn't feel like an invasion until New Alexandria when it should feel like one from the very start (if not Long Night of Solace and/or Exodus)


[Edited on 02.28.2011 9:23 PM PST]

  • 02.28.2011 9:23 PM PDT

// Chapter
// My PC


2/15/12: Francisco Porras, I'll miss you. Rest in Peace.

I enjoyed Reach A LOT, and loved ODST's storyline (a little short though).

  • 02.28.2011 9:24 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: Darkstar_81

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: ninjakenzen
I agree, if somehow Eric Nylund had a direct involvement in the actual story department of the in-game Halo cutscenes, i think most of us will be satisfied from a Canon and Great storytelling point of view.

If Eric Nylund had his way, the entirety of Reach's campaign would have been three missions.

1. Go to Circumference
2. Defend Generator
3. Wander CASTLE Base

So fun. /sarcasm


He if had his way, the story would have been much better, not to mention it would fit in the canon Reach doesn't feel like an invasion until New Alexandria when it should feel like one from the very start (if not Long Night of Solace and/or Exodus)

If Nylund had his way, his underwhelming writing would probably put me to sleep.

  • 02.28.2011 9:24 PM PDT
  • gamertag: An0nz
  • user homepage:

CoD is a good game, even if the Halo series are better in some aspects. Anyone who insults either is just bad in that game. Grow up.


Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: Beowolfe

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: ninjakenzen
I agree, if somehow Eric Nylund had a direct involvement in the actual story department of the in-game Halo cutscenes, i think most of us will be satisfied from a Canon and Great storytelling point of view.

If Eric Nylund had his way, the entirety of Reach's campaign would have been three missions.

1. Go to Circumference
2. Defend Generator
3. Wander CASTLE Base

So fun. /sarcasm


It didn't have to follow TFoR. It could have simply adhered to it. They could have done the missions for Noble Team, simply make it FIT within the time frame projected by previous sources. On the other hand, they could have easily chosen to show what happened to the rest of the Spartan IIs who were sent to defend the ODPs, we have practically no info on what happened to them.

They died, how could you not come to that conclusion?

NO! REALLY!?
/sarcasm.

We don't know what their battle was before they died, now did we? All we know is that they were most likely killed by the UNSC Majestic when it bombarded the area with MAC rounds.

And since Halo Reach was made with the intent of showing a longer battle, they could have easily portrayed the ground battle to be 1-2 days, and with that they could have added plot twists to continue the story, for example, maybe not all 11 Spartan IIs in Beta Red died, maybe a few were sent away before the blast for a counter-attack mission just like Fred decided to do with his team; maybe they survived the bombardment somehow.

Not exactly hard to make up new stories when you haven't spilled all the beans.

  • 02.28.2011 9:27 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: Beowolfe
maybe they survived the bombardment somehow.

So the uber canon nuts can have another thing to whine about?

  • 02.28.2011 9:31 PM PDT
  • gamertag: An0nz
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CoD is a good game, even if the Halo series are better in some aspects. Anyone who insults either is just bad in that game. Grow up.


Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: Beowolfe
maybe they survived the bombardment somehow.

So the uber canon nuts can have another thing to whine about?

Not really. Bungie already did that with the supposed orbital MAC round at Sword Base; if they had done this, the people are less likely to complain about because this effectively gives them a story they know about but never actually experienced. If you were to say that they survived because some of the Spartans were inside the Generators, and the complex had different levels like Sword or Castle Base, people probably wouldn't care either, especially since we know that Ship-mounted MACs are considerably weaker than Orbital SMACs, and they would have already hit the 3 Covenant cruisers before they impacted the ground below.

Either way, this is ONE option out of the countless other valid ones, Bungie simply chose not to go with that.

You also have to take into account the fact that this tiny tidbit of info we know of Red Beta Team actually came from Halo Reach itself through radio conversations, so if the game was designed differently in the first place, this storyline would have had no restrictions.

[Edited on 02.28.2011 9:40 PM PST]

  • 02.28.2011 9:37 PM PDT

If you're passionate about the thing you're talking about, I'll always lend an ear.

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: Beowolfe
maybe they survived the bombardment somehow.

So the uber canon nuts can have another thing to whine about?

If done correctly, as in not conflicting with any other sources.Then it would add a layer of intricacy to the game. Theres more then meets the eye. Another group of Spartans surviving etc can open up many potential possibilities in the Halo Universe.

IMO it would be much better then Noble Team. How suddenly they were introduced into the game and then easily conforming to generic video-game stereotypes. They barely had any moments in the game where you were like "now that's what a Spartan does" any badassery seen that no common solidier could dream of doing.

Do we ever see Jun epically sniping anyone in a cut scene?
Do we ever see Kat taking advantage of her robo arms in a cut scene?
Do we ever see Jorge plowing down covies with his turret in a cut scene?
Do we ever see Emile using his shotgun and knife in a manner that wows of Spec-ops in a cut scene?

NO we don't, they don't give us this feel. Instead people base their combat prowness in game. "Oh emile snipes with the -blam!-gun" etc. Nothing to show Spartan-like quialites in them.

Another example of potential in this game that got wasted.

We see them die, but at this point who cares?
The attachment factor and portrayal is so disapointing that many people have no feelings when it happenes.

Hell, In MW2 when i saw Ghost die, i was like pumped up, i WANTED Shepard to die. That BASTARD!!!
Or in the end of MW, when you crew gets gun down. I WANTED REVENGE, it was satisfying taking out that russian leader.
In Gears 2 when Dom's wifes story arc is introduced. I felt bad for Dom, i made sure the each and every Locust died.
In Halo 1, When i had that green, video of the marines point of view for the flood, the atmosphere and everything. I made sure to GTFO there as soon as i can.
In Halo 2, When you see the Arbitar get shamed, i wanted my honor back. By carrying out the objectives without objection. And dimay that i was playing as an elite.
Etc etc

I had motivation to carry out my mission.

Never had this feeling in Reach.

See a Zealot, kill it, objective done. That's all.
That's a bloody shame.

That's my problem with Reach.

  • 02.28.2011 9:47 PM PDT
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Posted by: CTN 0452 9
It is sad, Halo CE and Halo 2 had brilliant stories. Halo 3's was shallow and, after several replays, lacks any real depth.

I disagree with you on ODST. The romance was unnecessary and poorly handled, but the story of the lone soldier in the occupied city was great, the story of the ODSTs gave you some insight into the lives of soldiers fighting block by block over smaller things, not just Master Chief fighting the save the universe epic.

Reach was awful for several reasons, the colorful Spartans, the terrible voice acting, writing, and characters.

Oh yeah, it also trampled established canon.

Agreed. 100%

  • 02.28.2011 9:53 PM PDT
  • gamertag: An0nz
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CoD is a good game, even if the Halo series are better in some aspects. Anyone who insults either is just bad in that game. Grow up.


Posted by: ninjakenzen
Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: Beowolfe
maybe they survived the bombardment somehow.

So the uber canon nuts can have another thing to whine about?

If done correctly, as in not conflicting with any other sources.Then it would add a layer of intricacy to the game. Theres more then meets the eye. Another group of Spartans surviving etc can open up many potential possibilities in the Halo Universe.

IMO it would be much better then Noble Team. How suddenly they were introduced into the game and then easily conforming to generic video-game stereotypes. They barely had any moments in the game where you were like "now that's what a Spartan does" any badassery seen that no common solidier could dream of doing.

Do we ever see Jun epically sniping anyone in a cut scene?
Do we ever see Kat taking advantage of her robo arms in a cut scene?
Do we ever see Jorge plowing down covies with his turret in a cut scene?
Do we ever see Emile using his shotgun and knife in a manner that wows of Spec-ops in a cut scene?

NO we don't, they don't give us this feel. Instead people base their combat prowness in game. "Oh emile snipes with the -blam!-gun" etc. Nothing to show Spartan-like quialites in them.

Another example of potential in this game that got wasted.

We see them die, but at this point who cares?
The attachment factor and portrayal is so disapointing that many people have no feelings when it happenes.

Hell, In MW2 when i saw Ghost die, i was like pumped up, i WANTED Shepard to die. That BASTARD!!!
Or in the end of MW, when you crew gets gun down. I WANTED REVENGE, it was satisfying taking out that russian leader.
In Gears 2 when Dom's wifes story arc is introduced. I felt bad for Dom, i made sure the each and every Locust died.
In Halo 1, When i had that green, video of the marines point of view for the flood, the atmosphere and everything. I made sure to GTFO there as soon as i can.
In Halo 2, When you see the Arbitar get shamed, i wanted my honor back. By carrying out the objectives without objection. And dimay that i was playing as an elite.
Etc etc

I had motivation to carry out my mission.

Never had this feeling in Reach.

See a Zealot, kill it, objective done. That's all.
That's a bloody shame.

That's my problem with Reach.

To be fair, Emile's final act is fairly badass. His death overall is retarded beyond belief, but the act itself is still very Spartan-like in that none other than a super-soldier can do that. However, aside from that, Emile does not show anything else at any other time. I agree with what you said.

  • 02.28.2011 9:58 PM PDT

If you're passionate about the thing you're talking about, I'll always lend an ear.

Posted by: Beowolfe
To be fair, Emile's final act is fairly badass. His death overall is retarded beyond belief, but the act itself is still very Spartan-like in that none other than a super-soldier can do that. However, aside from that, Emile does not show anything else at any other time. I agree with what you said.

Well SGT Forge stabbed the arbiter in the neck in Halo Wars, so not very unique in that department.
But thanks for the shout-out.
:)

  • 02.28.2011 11:04 PM PDT
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Posted by: A Puzzled Mind
What is this crap that you're spewing. Reading your comment makes me want to kill a dozen puppies. Only a fool would have dozens of light armored vehicles in no particular formation rush hardened and well defended enemy positions.


Oh, kind of like in Halo: The Flood when the army of Ghosts charged the ODST encampment? On the Covenant's side, they're horrendously over-confident. For them to send light vehicles in was nothing too unbelievable.

As for the UNSC, have you ever heard of bait? I imagine the plan to have gone something like this: "Alright Batallions [X] will engage the Covenant forces here, drawing them away from the cloaking spires. Then, Noble Team will be able to neutralize the Spire with minimal Covenant resistance."

As for the Halo games storyline, I've enjoyed all six games. Yes, I consider Halo Wars a Halo game. I still play through all of them, and don't really see how they "don't fit." I also still read the books, and have the wonderful ability to overlook small inconsistencies that probably came about from the books being written before Halo 2 was even completed.

  • 02.28.2011 11:45 PM PDT

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