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Subject: Does the concept of Sangheili honour actually exist?

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

I am not getting on at the fact that they have killed over 23 billion Humans and have massacred large populations of other species because that was done in the name of a Religion due to being misled, and not really due to their own state of mind.

Also, just because the authors say that they are honourable does not mean that they are as that automatically begs the question, and it is also just appealing to an authority. The authors may say that they are, but their are actions throughout the trilogy that appear to say otherwise.
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Evolutions Vol I, Page 234, Headhunters
"If we were to meet in battle as warriors - true warriors," the Elite hissed, "you would have fallen, just as so many of your kind have fallen - to our swords and fire; under the weight of our boots. But you - you are not warriors. You are assassins. Weak and timid, you hide in the shadows -"

This Elite, after being defeated in battle by the Spartan III Headhunter team, starts taking a hissy fit about how he would have defeated the Spartans had they met as "true warriors" face to face, rather than as what had actually happened where the Spartans used active Camoflague. This guy thinks that the use of Active camoflague is for cowards and weaklings.

Woops! He just inadvertently called a lot of his fellow Sangheili warriors cowards and weaklings, including the Commandos who were standing watching this engagement the whole time whilst using Active Camouflage!. If you do not know why this is implied, the Sangheili use Active Camouflage systems rather excessively when it suits them to, and there seems to be no problems when they do. But when the Spartans use it, it is suddenly baaaad.

As Jonah puts it after interrupting the Elite:

"Says the alien shi­t­-heel who invented active-camo,"
It may be a point of view thing or the Elite was just butt-hurt; or perhaps they can be baseless hypocrites in that regard.
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Evolutions Vol II, Page 314, The Return
After two days of Human slaughter in their cities and homes, he waited for the prescribed hour and looked over to the prophet next to him, the Prophet of Conviction, who was there to witness the event on behalf of the High Council.

That phrase about "Human slaughter in their cities and homes" is what I am after here. Homes implies that there was butchering of civilians. What do the Sangheili supposedly think about that? It ties in with their whole Code of Conduct on the battlefield about gaining merit and rank.

Halo Encyclopedia Pg 124
Currently, "promotion" (Though the Covenant do not think of it in those terms) is available only to a soldier who has killed an opponent in legitimate combat - butchering unarmed civilians does not count as legitimate combat.

So it does not count towards any sort of merit. There is likely little to no honour to be found in it as a result. The most effective way of destroying population centres is to simply glass them. There is absolutely no reason to go down and butcher civilians in regular combat as it wastes time, resources and there is no opportunity to be gained from it. So why was it done?

Seems to me like the Sangheili have simply violated their own morals, and committed heinous acts even by their own standards. They would not consider it as non-legitimate combat if they did not see it as unacceptable, and yet they appear to have sunk to a level that they themselves view as low and dishonourable.
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"But wait," You say, "they allied with Humanity at the end of the day! They must be innately good hearted after all!"

Not really.

The reason why the alliance was allowed to persevere, or even begin in the first place was due to the NOVA event at Joyous Exultation.

Halo Encyclopaedia, Pg 201
Onboard the Sublime transcendence, Covenant engineers accidentally activated a NOVA warhead, which had been picked up from Reach previously. The explosion destroyed three-fifths of the Sangheili armada and fighting forces, which effectively equalised the forces of the Covenant rebels with those of the Loyalists. This event also forced the Sangheili to seek out new allies in their battle against the Loyalists.

Nothing really wrong with that I guess, but it utterly defeats the idea that the Sangheili allied with Humanity out of a desire for absolution, penance or guilt. It was for personal gain.

Although here is the real issue. The event with Tartarus, Arbiter and the beginning of the Human-Sangheili alliance in the 05 Control Room happened on the 22nd of October I believe. Admiral Xytan Jar 'Wattinee was fully prepared to destroy Humanity along with the Covenant Loyalist, and that was on November 3rd. Word surely could not have taken that long to get around with Covenant technology. It appears that they just ignored the truth and went with their old genocidal ways out of arrogance, only changing their minds when their entire species was suddenly threatened.
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The final cutscene of Reach.
This one is pretty self evident I think. N6 was on the deck unarmed, wounded and yet we see the Ultra pinning him down whilst the Zealot finished him off. That seems like a pretty dirty way to beat him. These Sangheili here did not appear to hold themselves to very noble standards.

It is strange though when you look at what the Covenant think about tactics involving outnumbering your opponent. They think it to be poor (New Fall of Reach: Cole's interrogation) and yet it was quite appealing to use in this instance.
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Grunts
We all know what the primary role of Grunts are in the Covenant: Canon Fodder. They are used to overwhelm enemies, exhaust their supplies, clear minefields and are sacrificed in order to take ground or set up artillery. If Sangheili were the fearless warriors that they have proclaimed themselves to be then should they not be the ones charging out laying down their lives for what they believe in, leading the Covenant by example? Rather, it seems like they will only engage once an enemy has been softened up a bit and the danger a little less threatening due to hordes of Grunts advancing beforehand.
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The Shipmaster in The Return is not leaving a very good impression either. Just committed genocide for no reason whatsoever, but to hell with it, let's torture another Human to find a race that will damn us anyway!

All in all now, I think that they are beginning to look like nothing but charlatans. It is not a case of morals being relative either, because they are breaking their own morals. At the least, they are not all as noble and infallible as people like to think.

What do you think?
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Also, I sort of realise I came off too strong. This is solely to point out that the Elites do have flaws and that they are not infallable. I am sure that for every "bad" one that exists there are a few "good" ones too.

[Edited on 03.25.2011 11:41 AM PDT]

  • 03.02.2011 4:27 PM PDT

Fear my Pink Mist...

Pretty Insane, bro.

  • 03.02.2011 4:35 PM PDT

Posted by: anton1792
I am not getting on at the fact that they have killed over 23 billion Humans and have massacred large populations of other species because that was done in the name of a Religion due to being misled, and not really due to their own state of mind.


False, What about the Kig Yar, Unggoy, and Jiralhanae? They all killed more than the Elites, Elites are more like commanders in the the American revolution, they weren't many in the front lines, just overlooked and backed up the mobile infantry.
They were responsible for most of the kills in the space combat though.

  • 03.02.2011 4:37 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: mojeda101
Posted by: anton1792
I am not getting on at the fact that they have killed over 23 billion Humans and have massacred large populations of other species because that was done in the name of a Religion due to being misled, and not really due to their own state of mind.


False, What about the Kig Yar, Unggoy, and Jiralhanae? They all killed more than the Elites, Elites are more like commanders in the the American revolution, they weren't many in the front lines, just overlooked and backed up the mobile infantry.
They were responsible for most of the kills in the space combat though.

Well, I largely believe that this point has no overall impact anyway. Regardless of whether they killed 1 Human, 100'000 or 23 billion, the fact is is that they did it out of fear of religious consequences and not through hubris, greed or xenophobia.

Anyway. It all falls down to who you blame: The Hitman or the Contractor?

Personally I think they are all the same. Elites commanded with the intent to murder and the grunts/jackals carried out those orders with intent to murder.

The Covenant killed 23 billion, and the Elites were a part of it. You cannot just partition the blood between them. At one end you have the ones who ordered the genocide but have never spilled a drop of Human blood and at the other end you have the ones who have slaughtered hundreds yet only follow orders. They all had the same intentions as well.

  • 03.02.2011 5:08 PM PDT

While you can't simply go "Oh the Elite's didn't mean it.", you can pardon them partly.

A few elites questioned why the Prophets didn't give humanity a choice about joining the Covenant as it had with every other race.

Oh, and the fleet which was destroyed by the Nova bomb? It was headed by an admiral who still believe the Great Journey was real, and was going to wipe out all the humans, brutes, and prophets before continuing to it.

The other Elites saw it was a lie.

  • 03.02.2011 5:24 PM PDT

Of course the concept of Sangheili honour exists.

This is why it's important that they've labelled humans so negatively; you can simultaneously maintain meaningful morality and murder people en masse if, as far as you're concerned, those people are subpeople that need to be purged.

The obvious parallel here is the Eastern Front of WWII and -blam!- policies towards Slavs, Jews, and others, but this discussion hardly needs to bring that up; throughout world history there are plenty of comparable cases of various degrees.

Edit: Wow, that is a rather obnoxious censor. I'm assuming "National Socialist" comes through? -.-

[Edited on 03.02.2011 5:38 PM PST]

  • 03.02.2011 5:34 PM PDT


Posted by: Tupolev
Of course the concept of Sangheili honour exists.

This is why it's important that they've labelled humans so negatively; you can simultaneously maintain meaningful morality and murder people en masse if, as far as you're concerned, those people are subpeople that need to be purged.

The obvious parallel here is the Eastern Front of WWII and -blam!- policies towards Slavs, Jews, and others, but this discussion hardly needs to bring that up; throughout world history there are plenty of comparable cases of various degrees.

Edit: Wow, that is a rather obnoxious censor. I'm assuming "National Socialist" comes through? -.-


Well, knowing Elite culture if humanity had joined the Covenant, they would have gotten a good spot in the covenant military. That is because if an enemy fights so fiercely that they impressive the Elites (which some Elites were.), they were granted a position in the armed forces.

  • 03.02.2011 5:45 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Oh, and the fleet which was destroyed by the Nova bomb? It was headed by an admiral who still believe the Great Journey was real, and was going to wipe out all the humans, brutes, and prophets before continuing to it.

The other Elites saw it was a lie.

They did? Xytan did still believe in the GJ if I remember rightly, but the fact remains that he was able to amass all those followers. If they all believed the same thing, then the point still stands.

If they did not, and were too afraid to speak or act up and would continue to do things that they did not agree with then that is a display of flawed integrity and cowardliness.

Posted by: Tupolev
Of course the concept of Sangheili honour exists.

This is why it's important that they've labelled humans so negatively; you can simultaneously maintain meaningful morality and murder people en masse if, as far as you're concerned, those people are subpeople that need to be purged.

The obvious parallel here is the Eastern Front of WWII and -blam!- policies towards Slavs, Jews, and others, but this discussion hardly needs to bring that up; throughout world history there are plenty of comparable cases of various degrees.

Edit: Wow, that is some inconvenient censorship. I'm assuming "National Socialism" comes through?

Well they did think what they were doing was...right. Humanity was labelled as Heretics, demons and they responded according to what their religion dictated. It would have at least demonstrated that they had integrity. I am however not getting at that specifically. There are instances where they break their own Code of Conduct and come off as very hypocritical.

For a race that explicitly prides itself on its apparent capacity to recognise honour, it seems unlikely that they should abandon it just because they can.

  • 03.02.2011 5:47 PM PDT

I can't write my signature on a computer... silly goose!

One thing I'd like to point out was the Noble 6 incident. Elites fully knew of what the Spartans did and were capable to do and probably vented a deep fury towards the enemy that killed so many of their comrades. It's like killing the guy who killed all your friends, in a messed up analogy.......

  • 03.02.2011 6:00 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: Shad0w 0f F3ar
One thing I'd like to point out was the Noble 6 incident. Elites fully knew of what the Spartans did and were capable to do and probably vented a deep fury towards the enemy that killed so many of their comrades. It's like killing the guy who killed all your friends, in a messed up analogy.......

Okay, this is probably true. However two things come to mind.

Firstly, it shows that they really are not so civilised and honour laden as we think if they allow their emotional state to so easily turn them into a pack of animals like that.

Second, it makes them look like hypocrites. It would be okay for them to do this to others (Like Humanity) but they are suddenly taken aback when it comes around and bites them in the ass so to speak. Also, your analogy does not really hold so well, because you are not killing that guys friends.

  • 03.02.2011 6:17 PM PDT

I am Field Master Avu Med 'Telcam, Servant of the Abiding Truth, and I have many brothers.

A god who creates tools is still a god. It is not for us to impose qualifications upon the divine or presume to guess its intentions.

Well, as for the Active Camo, yeah, that elite was more than likely butthurt. Your comments on killing civilians, they were charged with genocide. Every and any human had to be eliminated. Noble 6, like the rest of the Spartans, were marked targets. The Sangheili knew they would be rewarded or at the least remembered for taking one down. That seems to be why everyone was ready to pounce on him. And lastly, the Sangheili- Human alliance. Thel saw it necessary for the separatists to ally with humanity in order to prevent the galaxy from being devoid of life. Xytan more than likely just plain old didn't like or respect the humans. He believed them to be a stain of the galaxy that had to be cleansed. He hung to that belief of the Covenant. With his powerful position, he had the ability to do so. Xytan wanted to see the loyalist and the humans dead. I don't see anything dishonorable about that.

  • 03.02.2011 6:25 PM PDT

Did that Brute fanboy hack your account or something?

Posted By:
I am not getting on at the fact that they have killed over 23 billion Humans and have massacred large populations of other species because that was done in the name of a Religion due to being misled, and not really due to their own state of mind.

Also, just because the authors say that they are honourable does not mean that they are as that automatically begs the question, and it is also just appealing to an authority. The authors may say that they are, but their are actions throughout the trilogy that appear to say otherwise.


If you think that's the case then you can't trust anything an author says. Using that logic there is nothing at all to say that the Empire in Star Wars is evil and the Rebels are the good guys. If the author's word has not meaning, then what is the point of even having stories?

This Elite, after being defeated in battle by the Spartan III Headhunter team, starts taking a hissy fit about how he would have defeated the Spartans had they met as "true warriors" face to face, rather than as what had actually happened where the Spartans used active Camoflague. This guy thinks that the use of Active camoflague is for cowards and weaklings.

Woops! He just inadvertently called a lot of his fellow Sangheili warriors cowards and weaklings, including the Commandos who were standing watching this engagement the whole time whilst using Active Camouflage!. If you do not know why this is implied, the Sangheili use Active Camouflage systems rather excessively when it suits them to, and there seems to be no problems when they do. But when the Spartans use it, it is suddenly baaaad.


I haven't read any of Evolutions, so I can't really interject any reading on the scenario. However, if memory serves me correctly, I believe it said in the Flood that positions involving stealth were not a position that were regarded with much honor. And also, every time we've seen the Elites using active camo in the games it is mostly to get the drop on you, the vast majority of the time they don't try to fight you with it engaged.

That phrase about "Human slaughter in their cities and homes" is what I am after here. Homes implies that there was butchering of civilians. What do the Sangheili supposedly think about that? It ties in with their whole Code of Conduct on the battlefield about gaining merit and rank.

So it does not count towards any sort of merit. There is likely little to no honour to be found in it as a result. The most effective way of destroying population centres is to simply glass them. There is absolutely no reason to go down and butcher civilians in regular combat as it wastes time, resources and there is no opportunity to be gained from it. So why was it done?

Seems to me like the Sangheili have simply violated their own morals, and committed heinous acts even by their own standards. They would not consider it as non-legitimate combat if they did not see it as unacceptable, and yet they appear to have sunk to a level that they themselves view as low and dishonourable.


You are reading your own bias into that, I don't see that as necessarily stating that they went down to slaughter towns and villages, if there is a military presence there it makes sense, and that is what I would assume they went down there form, and seeing as at that point the Elites viewed Humanity as an abomination it would make sense for them to kill whatever humans they came across on the surface while engaging the military.

Again, you are reading into the text you quoted what isn't there, it says nothing about killing those unarmed civilians as dishonorable or shameful, merely that there is no honor to be gained from it, it's not a challenge to a warrior and not rewarding at all, therefore there is no value to it other than damaging your enemies' morale.

Nothing really wrong with that I guess, but it utterly defeats the idea that the Sangheili allied with Humanity out of a desire for absolution, penance or guilt. It was for personal gain.

Although here is the real issue. The event with Tartarus, Arbiter and the beginning of the Human-Sangheili alliance in the 05 Control Room happened on the 22nd of October I believe. Admiral Xytan Jar 'Wattinee was fully prepared to destroy Humanity along with the Covenant Loyalist, and that was on November 3rd. Word surely could not have taken that long to get around with Covenant technology. It appears that they just ignored the truth and went with their old genocidal ways out of arrogance, only changing their minds when their entire species was suddenly threatened.


The showdown between Tartarus and Thel is actually between the 3rd and the 7th of November, at least according to Halopedian. So there goes that theory of yours, word would not have spread yet of the Prophet's lies, hence why all the Elites present would not have any problems with continuing their extermination of Humanity. So your whole line of reasoning on this issue now falls apart. That only made the alliance necessary, I think it would have happened anyway or both sides would have simply ignored each other and went their separate ways.

This one is pretty self evident I think. N6 was on the deck unarmed, wounded and yet we see the Ultra pinning him down whilst the Zealot finished him off. That seems like a pretty dirty way to beat him.

It is funny though when you look at what the Covenant think about tactics involving outnumbering your opponent. They think it to be poor (New Fall of Reach: Cole's interrogation) and yet it was quite appealing for them to use in this instance.


Yeah, you try single combat with a guy/girl who has single-handedly eliminated whole squads of your men right before your eyes. And Six was still kicking and fighting even the Elites had him/her down, it wasn't a matter of holding him, it was a matter of defending themselves, Six was fighting those two Elites on top of him/her tooth and nail and probably would have managed to kill them even his/her current condition, so of course they're going to not let up until they're sure Six is deader than a door nail.

We all know what the primary role of Grunts are in the Covenant: Canon Fodder. They are used to overwhelm enemies, exhaust their supplies, clear minefields and are sacrificed in order to take ground or set up artillery. If Sangheili were the fearless warriors that they have proclaimed themselves to be then should they not be the ones charging out laying down their lives for what they believe in, leading the Covenant by example? Rather, it seems like they will only engage once an enemy has been softened up a bit and the danger a little less threatening due to hordes of Grunts advancing beforehand.

One, there are not that many Elites out in the field at one time, even in a pitched battle, they serve much the same role as higher ranked military commanders in this day and age, they sit further back from the combat and direct their troops, and because they are commanders, and thus more valuable than any common canon fodder like a Grunt or a Jackel, it makes sense for the common infantry to go in first. And besides, your point is moot, as we see Elites in field positions all the time in the games, so contrary to the what the books say, Elites do take part in the initial assaults and directly on the front lines for the lesser ranks such as Minors and Majors, and we see Zealots on the front lines quite a bit too, though not all that often.

The Shipmaster in The Return is not leaving a very good impression of his race either. Just committed genocide for no reason whatsoever, but to hell with it, let's torture another Human to find a race that will damn us anyway!

All in all now, I think that they look like nothing but charlatans. It is not a case of morals being relative either, because they are breaking their own morals

What do you think?


He did not just commit genocide, the Return takes place 6 years after the war is over that is not "just committed" anything. And I didn't really get the idea that he was going to do anything to the human except heal him/her, I saw him saying that line as if torture was an option if the Human refused to say anything and their was no other way the Shipmaster could persuade him/her.

I think that you want to see the Elites as disgusting vermin and are thus skewing everything to say that in order to support your inaccurate view. I also think that that Brute fanboy must have brainwashed you or something, you were defending the Elites before, why the sudden change of heart?

  • 03.02.2011 7:08 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: matman25402
Your comments on killing civilians, they were charged with genocide. Every and any human had to be eliminated. Noble 6, like the rest of the Spartans, were marked targets. The Sangheili knew they would be rewarded or at the least remembered for taking one down. That seems to be why everyone was ready to pounce on him.

The thing I cannot get in this case is what is so special about them if they do this. They really are no different than let us say Jackals if their conduct, discipline and morals are things to be just cast aside at a whim when opportunity presents itself. Rewarding this behaviour seems counter-intuitive as well.

Posted by: matman25402
And lastly, the Sangheili- Human alliance. Thel saw it necessary for the separatists to ally with humanity in order to prevent the galaxy from being devoid of life.

I agree, although it seems strange that Thel would neglect to mention the Reclaimer thing that Humans have going on, and the fact that, apparently, only they can activate a Halo. Something like that would be, I think, instrumental in swaying opinions.

Posted by: matman25402
Xytan more than likely just plain old didn't like or respect the humans. He believed them to be a stain of the galaxy that had to be cleansed. He hung to that belief of the Covenant.

Going back to the above point, it possibly shows that Xytan has ignored certain truths. There is no nobility nor trustworthiness in this. It seems quite petty and unfair, which defeats the whole nobility thing.

Posted by: matman25402
With his powerful position, he had the ability to do so. Xytan wanted to see the loyalist and the humans dead. I don't see anything dishonorable about that.

That is the beginnings of a tyrant though. Abusing his power like that is not honourable.

I have always remembered honour being built up from a set of virtues. Integrity, nobility, sincerity and courage. Integrity is your will to hold true to a set of beliefs and a certain code. Nobility is rising above pettiness and displaying sound judgement and fairness. Sincerity is being trustworthy and reliable. The Sangheili appear to fail in a number of areas, Xytan especially.

What do you view it as?

  • 03.02.2011 7:09 PM PDT


Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: matman25402
Your comments on killing civilians, they were charged with genocide. Every and any human had to be eliminated. Noble 6, like the rest of the Spartans, were marked targets. The Sangheili knew they would be rewarded or at the least remembered for taking one down. That seems to be why everyone was ready to pounce on him.

The thing I cannot get in this case is what is so special about them if they do this. They really are no different than let us say Jackals if their conduct, discipline and morals are things to be just cast aside at a whim when opportunity presents itself. Rewarding this behaviour seems counter-intuitive as well.

Posted by: matman25402
And lastly, the Sangheili- Human alliance. Thel saw it necessary for the separatists to ally with humanity in order to prevent the galaxy from being devoid of life.

I agree, although it seems strange that Thel would neglect to mention the Reclaimer thing that Humans have going on, and the fact that, apparently, only they can activate a Halo. Something like that would be, I think, instrumental in swaying opinions.

Posted by: matman25402
Xytan more than likely just plain old didn't like or respect the humans. He believed them to be a stain of the galaxy that had to be cleansed. He hung to that belief of the Covenant.

Going back to the above point, it possibly shows that Xytan has ignored certain truths. There is no nobility nor trustworthiness in this. It seems quite petty and unfair, which defeats the whole nobility thing.

Posted by: matman25402
With his powerful position, he had the ability to do so. Xytan wanted to see the loyalist and the humans dead. I don't see anything dishonorable about that.

That is the beginnings of a tyrant though. Abusing his power like that is not honourable.

I have always remembered honour being built up from a set of virtues. Integrity, nobility, sincerity and courage. Integrity is your will to hold true to a set of beliefs and a certain code. Nobility is rising above pettiness and displaying sound judgement and fairness. Sincerity is being trustworthy and reliable. The Sangheili appear to fail in a number of areas, Xytan especially.

What do you view it as?


One individual is not indicative of the whole race or species. If what matman theorised is true, that just means Xytan is an -blam!- who is as blinded as the Brutes. We have countless more examples of the Elites being everything the authors and game writers describing them as, honorable warriors, than what we have of Elites being dishonorable or not seeming to fit their culture's ideals.

  • 03.02.2011 7:15 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: OrderedComa
If you think that's the case then you can't trust anything an author says. Using that logic there is nothing at all to say that the Empire in Star Wars is evil and the Rebels are the good guys. If the author's word has not meaning, then what is the point of even having stories?

If the authors do not fully understand what they are implying with a word in spite of the actions that appear to contradict it then there is every reason to question it.

I am questioning the validity of the Sangheili's honour. Quoting "The are honourable" in explicit form in this debate is no better than quoting from the Bible in a philosophical debate about the validity of the Bible itself.

Posted by: OrderedComa
I believe it said in the Flood that positions involving stealth were not a position that were regarded with much honor. And also, every time we've seen the Elites using active camo in the games it is mostly to get the drop on you, the vast majority of the time they don't try to fight you with it engaged.

So did the Spartans. Page references for premises as well please.

Posted by: OrderedComa
You are reading your own bias into that, I don't see that as necessarily stating that they went down to slaughter towns and villages, if there is a military presence there it makes sense, and that is what I would assume they went down there form, and seeing as at that point the Elites viewed Humanity as an abomination it would make sense for them to kill whatever humans they came across on the surface while engaging the military.

But why? They can just glass the planet, like they do any other time. It takes only a few hours and saves time, energy and resources. Kholo had minimal defences and military which was crushed nearly instantly. There was virtually nothing left to fight. Also, I am not really sure how much more explicit the idea of civilian butcher can be conveyed other than "Slaughter in their homes" to be honest.

Posted by: OrderedComa
Again, you are reading into the text you quoted what isn't there, it says nothing about killing those unarmed civilians as dishonorable or shameful, merely that there is no honor to be gained from it, it's not a challenge to a warrior and not rewarding at all, therefore there is no value to it other than damaging your enemies' morale.

You know, morals are not just something that you do for the hell of it. They are usually justified with respect to those who carry them. There will be a reason why that rule exists for the Sangheili. Why is it not considered a challenge? Because it is too easy most likely. Why is it too easy? Because they cannot hope to defend themselves. In that knowledge, there is no honour to be found in it because there is little fairness in it. It is inductive.

Posted by: OrderedComa
The showdown between Tartarus and Thel is actually between the 3rd and the 7th of November, at least according to Halopedian.

That automatically begs the question as well. You know, if I ever quoted a wiki in my reports my professor would fail me instantly. With wikis, here is why (From the discussion page):

He probably took about three days to get to the index which puts us at the 31st. He was probably Graveminds captive for a day. They both get sent to High Charity and the Control Room and each of them has two more levels. So two more days = November 3.
I will look into his later on.

Posted by: OrderedComa
Yeah, you try single combat with a guy/girl who has single-handedly eliminated whole squads of your men right before your eyes. And Six was still kicking and fighting even the Elites had him/her down, it wasn't a matter of holding him, it was a matter of defending themselves, Six was fighting those two Elites on top of him/her tooth and nail and probably would have managed to kill them even his/her current condition, so of course they're going to not let up until they're sure Six is deader than a door nail.

So you look at Noble 6 in the final seconds and think that once he went down, after receiving those injuries, that he had a chance against that Zealot? 6 was finished. Plasma would have utterly ruined his armour and caused severe damage.

Posted by: OrderedComa
One, there are not that many Elites out in the field at one time, even in a pitched battle, they serve much the same role as higher ranked military commanders in this day and age, they sit further back from the combat and direct their troops,

Which is my point. They sit back and let their mouths do all the heavy lifting whilst proclaiming to lay their lives for the Covenant. I am sure that you have seen this meme, correct? The Elites appear to do the same thing, only that with what you are suggesting it is not a keyboard but a command post. The Grunts have lain down their lives for the Covenant more than the Elites have from what I have seen.

Posted by: OrderedComa
and because they are commanders, and thus more valuable than any common canon fodder like a Grunt or a Jackel, it makes sense for the common infantry to go in first.

That does not change the fact that they prefer to enter into a minimal danger area despite their fearless persona we are lead to believe in. If they believe to be the leading example of the Covenant military, then they would be in there in greater numbers.

Posted by: OrderedComa
And besides, your point is moot, as we see Elites in field positions all the time in the games, so contrary to the what the books say, Elites do take part in the initial assaults and directly on the front lines for the lesser ranks such as Minors and Majors, and we see Zealots on the front lines quite a bit too, though not all that often.

What is the Grunt to Elite ratio? Also, Elites are always seen hanging back whilst the "lessers" go in first.

Posted by: OrderedComa
He did not just commit genocide, the Return takes place 6 years after the war is over that is not "just committed" anything.

Semantics.

You know what I mean. If you want to get technical, the 6 in comparison to 27 is pretty small.

Posted by: OrderedComa
And I didn't really get the idea that he was going to do anything to the human except heal him/her, I saw him saying that line as if torture was an option if the Human refused to say anything and their was no other way the Shipmaster could persuade him/her.

What if the Human genuinely knows nothing of importance? The fact that he has even considered it, with glee (if you watch/listen to the motion comic) suggests a capriciously malicious nature.

Posted by: OrderedComa
I also think that that Brute fanboy must have brainwashed you or something, you were defending the Elites before, why the sudden change of heart?

I have thought this for a while now. He merely reminded me about it. I had forgotten mostly.

  • 03.02.2011 8:08 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: OrderedComa
One individual is not indicative of the whole race or species. If what matman theorised is true, that just means Xytan is an -blam!- who is as blinded as the Brutes. We have countless more examples of the Elites being everything the authors and game writers describing them as, honorable warriors, than what we have of Elites being dishonorable or not seeming to fit their culture's ideals.

The instance of the Return would involve hundreds of Sangheili. The canon fodder status of Grunts is widely held. If Xytan was prepared to continue baseless genocide, where were the differences in opinion from his fleet?

Why is a "Noble" race subject to hubris anyway?

  • 03.02.2011 8:16 PM PDT

If the authors do not fully understand what they are implying with a word in spite of the actions that appear to contradict it then there is every reason to question it.

I am questioning the validity of the Sangheili's honour. Quoting "The are honourable" in explicit form in this debate is no better than quoting from the Bible in a philosophical debate about the validity of the Bible itself.


I have seen nothing at all to tell me they are not acting out the way the authors have described them. And everything you've raised so far is not a very strong argument against it either.

So did the Spartans. Page references for premises as well please.

Like I said, I have not read Halo: Evolutions yet, I don't know how the scenario played out, I'll have to see it for myself before I form any opinion on this particular instance.
And I can't find you the exact reference for what I said about the Elites regarding stealth based units, I don't own any of the books, and the Flood is not the one I've borrowed currently so I can't look it up.

But why? They can just glass the planet, like they do any other time. It takes only a few hours and saves time, energy and resources. Kholo had minimal defences and military which was crushed nearly instantly. There was virtually nothing left to fight. Also, I am not really sure how much more explicit the idea of civilian butcher can be conveyed other than "Slaughter in their homes" to be honest.

Why not just glass a planet every time? Why ever go down to the surface unless there are Forerunner artifacts? Like I said, if you are fighting a war of genocide, like the Covenant was doing, you will kill the enemy wherever you find them, this would mean killing whoever or whatever you found in homesteads.

You know, morals are not just something that you do for the hell of it. They are usually justified with respect to those who carry them. There will be a reason why that rule exists for the Sangheili. Why is it not considered a challenge? Because it is too easy most likely. Why is it too easy? Because they cannot hope to defend themselves. In that knowledge, there is no honour to be found in it because there is little fairness in it. It is inductive.

All that is true, but that does not mean at all that the Elites view it as something shameful, merely that there is no glory in it, and something not having any glory in it does not automatically mean that it is a shameful act, there is no glory in doing something like brushing your teeth or being a pro-wrestler and then wrestling somebody for fun, is such a thing shameful? No, it would probably be something absurdly easy to win for the pro, but it wouldn't be shameful in any way.

That automatically begs the question as well. You know, if I ever quoted a wiki in my reports my professor would fail me instantly. With wikis, here is why (From the discussion page):

He probably took about three days to get to the index which puts us at the 31st. He was probably Graveminds captive for a day. They both get sent to High Charity and the Control Room and each of them has two more levels. So two more days = November 3.

I will look into his later on.


I don't care what professors would have to say or not, this is not something we are being graded on, and even if the speculation is off by a bit, the date of Xytan's meeting with all those fleet commanders and the Arbiter's showdown with Tartarus would not be that far apart and it very plausible that the full extent of the Prohpet's treachery was not known yet. And that would not be begging the question, if it was a logical fallacy at all it would be an appeal to doubtful authority, an obvious example of such would "according my dad it is going to rain for three months straight".

Which is my point. They sit back and let their mouths do all the heavy lifting whilst proclaiming to lay their lives for the Covenant. I am sure that you have seen this meme, correct? The Elites appear to do the same thing, only that with what you are suggesting it is not a keyboard but a command post. The Grunts have lain down their lives for the Covenant more than the Elites have from what I have seen.

*Sigh* you don't see to get what I was saying at all. I was stating that it would be fool hardy to put their commanders on the front lines, that is not good military strategy. And we have seen that any Elite, regardless of position, is willing to put their money where their mouth is. Every commander we've seen has been willing to put his life on the line when given the opportunity.

[quote]That does not change the fact that they prefer to enter into a minimal danger area despite their fearless persona we are lead to believe in. If they believe to be the leading example of the Covenant military, then they would be in there in greater numbers.

What is the Grunt to Elite ratio? Also, Elites are always seen hanging back whilst the "lessers" go in first.


I don't think there has been any specific ratio given, but what has been stated is that the Grunts are by far the most numerous Covenant species and that strict breeding laws have had to be put into place to keep the Grunt populations in check.

[quote]Semantics.

You know what I mean. If you want to get technical, the 6 in comparison to 27 is pretty small.

What if the Human genuinely knows nothing of importance? The fact that he has even considered it, with glee (if you watch/listen to the motion comic) suggests a capriciously malicious nature.


It is small yes, but it is still just doing something.

I didn't hear any sort of glee in his voice at all, all I heard was desperation from not knowing what his gods wanted and a determination to find out information from the Human because Humanity seemed to know more about his gods than he did. And all throughout he seemed to regret what he did, if the human genuinely did know nothing, then I doubt that the Shipmaster would add more guilt to what he already feels by killing another innocent human.

  • 03.03.2011 8:58 AM PDT

"You are who you dare"

You owe it to yourself to get out and be someone. Get to work!

-Leader of The Citadel

The thing is.....their instances of being honorable far outweigh the instances of being hypocritical.

  • 03.03.2011 9:03 AM PDT

Don't worry, you're still your mom's favorite Bnet member.

Perhaps the Sangheili view of honor is far different than the human view of honor.

  • 03.03.2011 9:07 AM PDT

Man is born free but everywhere he is in chains.

That's a great interpretation of the Sangheili. Being a war mongering alien species I can't see any room for honor there in the first place. It makes sense that they're hypocrites towards their own morals as they're in a genocidal war with humanity for as long as they were.

  • 03.03.2011 9:20 AM PDT

This almost sounds like a case of "They don't fit our definition of honor, therefore they aren't honorable."

Their sense of honor is completely different from a humans.

Even then, look at how they were told about humans before. They basically had been told humans were defiling artifacts and relics of their gods, and tainting the universe.

  • 03.03.2011 9:34 AM PDT
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Esro 'Ecaulee is my name, and I wear black armour....

This heresy will not stand in my presence!!!!

  • 03.03.2011 9:40 AM PDT

You're making the mistake of thinking Sangheili honour is identical to what humans perceive as honour. Where we may find bombarding a planet cowardly, Sangheili may perceive it as a show of strength and does imbued with much honour.

  • 03.03.2011 10:16 AM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: OrderedComa
I have seen nothing at all to tell me they are not acting out the way the authors have described them. And everything you've raised so far is not a very strong argument against it either.

Well, we shall see.

Posted by: OrderedComa
Why not just glass a planet every time?

They do. They did not waste any time with Reach or Jericho. After the UNSC fleets and armies were defeated the Covenant got straight to glassing population centres. Kholo had nothing left, not even Weather Satellites were left. The Covenant could have proceeded like normal, but did not. For some reason, they decided to waste time and resources by sending thousands of soldiers into towns and cities that were going to be glassed anyway.

Posted by: OrderedComa
Why ever go down to the surface unless there are Forerunner artifacts? Like I said, if you are fighting a war of genocide, like the Covenant was doing, you will kill the enemy wherever you find them, this would mean killing whoever or whatever you found in homesteads.

Refer to above point. You can spend a few hours glassing or days/weeks hunting down every last person and the result is the same anyway. They went down for, I could only guess, sport.

Posted by: OrderedComa
All that is true, but that does not mean at all that the Elites view it as something shameful, merely that there is no glory in it, and something not having any glory in it does not automatically mean that it is a shameful act, there is no glory in doing something like brushing your teeth or being a pro-wrestler and then wrestling somebody for fun, is such a thing shameful? No, it would probably be something absurdly easy to win for the pro, but it wouldn't be shameful in any way.

Why is there no glory in it? I think you are trying to escape the fact that it is an unfairness and so that is the justification for there being no glory in it. Regardless if they view it as a null act, it is still violating that principle. In that case, it ceases to be honour.

Your analogy. It would be entirely dependant on the morals of the wrestler. However, considering that the Sangheili are not "doing it for fun", I cannot see any pertinence here.

An integral part of honour is sticking to your beliefs, it is called having integrity. Not sticking to them is dishonourable. It is a difficult thing to earn but an easy thing to lose.

Posted by: OrderedComa
I don't care what professors would have to say or not, this is not something we are being graded on, and even if the speculation is off by a bit, the date of Xytan's meeting with all those fleet commanders and the Arbiter's showdown with Tartarus would not be that far apart and it very plausible that the full extent of the Prohpet's treachery was not known yet. And that would not be begging the question, if it was a logical fallacy at all it would be an appeal to doubtful authority, an obvious example of such would "according my dad it is going to rain for three months straight".

I do not care for wikis. You need to find your own sources rather than using second hand information which, as you put it, is doubtful. It is also easy to miss things if they omit it. Here is what happens when you place full faith in it rather than use the sources for yourself. From the Bestiarium:

The [Covenant's] accurate [slipspace] navigation, near-instantaneous interstellar communication, ...
There is no excuse for Xytan.

Posted by: OrderedComa
*Sigh* you don't see to get what I was saying at all. I was stating that it would be fool hardy to put their commanders on the front lines, that is not good military strategy. And we have seen that any Elite, regardless of position, is willing to put their money where their mouth is. Every commander we've seen has been willing to put his life on the line when given the opportunity.

Not every Elite is a commander though. You seem to be implying that. They are also not infrequent either. They are one of the most populous races and dedicate nearly all of their manpower to military endeavours. The existence of the Grunts primarily as Canon fodder, to go in first when the Elites have all the manpower and commanders they need tells me that there is something iffy about them.

Posted by: OrderedComa
I don't think there has been any specific ratio given, but what has been stated is that the Grunts are by far the most numerous Covenant species and that strict breeding laws have had to be put into place to keep the Grunt populations in check.

That is irrelevant to the Elites holding the front line with their own blood rather than using another race. They could easily go in with the Unggoy.

Posted by: OrderedComa
I didn't hear any sort of glee in his voice at all, all I heard was desperation from not knowing what his gods wanted and a determination to find out information from the Human because Humanity seemed to know more about his gods than he did. And all throughout he seemed to regret what he did, if the human genuinely did know nothing, then I doubt that the Shipmaster would add more guilt to what he already feels by killing another innocent human.

Well we can debate his tone of voice all day and it will probably not get anywhere. When he tore his way into the tent, he still had to decide whether he wanted to kill or subdue anything inside. Do you not also find it a bit suspicious how he was willing to leave that Human for dead, but when it suited him, he decided to save him? He has not got that Humans interests in mind. The torture line was made out to sound like an ultimatum. If the Human does not give him what he wants, he should expect it.

To MegaMuffin16, Cmdr DaeFaron, Wolverfrog

Moral Relativism is not the problem here. It is perceived instances where they have apparently violated the morals that they themselves proclaim to adhere to. Unless you are implying that it is their morals to break their own morals, but that does not make any sense anyway.

As a side note, even if somehow through some logic, they do view the murder of civilians face to face to be acceptable with their version of Honour, it is of no relevance to us. Calling them honourable is pointless, because the use of that word implies Human standards that do not exist for them. They are something else. It looks like admiring them for perceived Human traits that do not exist for them. So what exactly is everyone so infatuated about from the start? They are unrelatable in that case.

[Edited on 03.03.2011 12:52 PM PST]

  • 03.03.2011 10:32 AM PDT

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