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Subject: Does the concept of Sangheili honour actually exist?

Oh hey there

Posted by: petarded2
It's a metaphor for the 07s' lack of identity. too old to be newfa­g, yet too new to be oldfa­g, we wander b.net in search of a home, forever trying to be something we are not.

I would say that it exists in the novels and other stories, but not in the games.

  • 03.03.2011 10:58 AM PDT

Weapon of Oppression

I haven't read any of Evolutions, so I can't really interject any reading on the scenario. However, if memory serves me correctly, I believe it said in the Flood that positions involving stealth were not a position that were regarded with much honor. And also, every time we've seen the Elites using active camo in the games it is mostly to get the drop on you, the vast majority of the time they don't try to fight you with it engaged.

Umm no, not even, in halo ce, halo 2, and even halo 3, camouflaged elites never disengaged camouflage, even in the novels when they were going in for a kill.

And Brutes are used as shock troops in cities and major population centers, brutes are the ones that kill civilians personally along with jackals and grunts.

  • 03.03.2011 2:32 PM PDT

Hmmm....

I think it is partly a case of what they consider to be honorable to be different from our own, but also a likelyhood that what they considered honorable has changed/been twisted over the centries due to the prophets lies. Take what Fal said in The Duel: he said that his people were starting to care more about power than honor (I would give an exact quote, but I do not trust my memory).

Thel seemed to hint at this himself at one point in the Halo 3 campaign, when yelling at one of Truth's broadcasting projections:

"There was honor in the Covenant once, there shall be again!"

Views/beliefs can change over time and I would not be surprised if what is considered 'honorable' changed as well. This does not excuse them for their crimes, but now that they realize their mistakes (well, some of them), whether or not they can/should be forgiven for them though depends on what they do now. Unfortunately, as pointed out, the Shipmaster from The Return is not starting out on a good road.

On the subject of active camo, I do not recall if this applied to stealth Sangheili or even SpecOps, but I do remember that it was the Ossona that was considered to be not exactly an honorable position. In regards to the other ranks/positions, it could be point of view thing, or situational. What do we use such tech for today? Reconessance and to increase the chance of mission success by delaying detection when behind enemy lines. Do we consider using the tech for such things as honorable? I guess what I am trying to say is that honor, like evil and morals, can be rather subjective.

To give a couple of examples from my own fiction: I have one character refer to those that used active camo as cowardly. Another character, a member of reconessance, defended it as needed to prevent wasteful deaths on the battlefield. Both characters are SpecOps, but obviously in different fields.

I have another character, whom I am still developing, that considers the use of the combat haresses themselves as cowardly (he feels the armor causes individuals to be more reckless in battle). I wouldn't be surprised if there are Sangheili in canon that feel the same, along with the use of sheild technology.

  • 03.03.2011 4:32 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: Slaskia
Yeah, I have always agreed that individuals will differ in opinion, they are not a hivemind afterall. *Looks to recent Rtas post*. However, people seem to have it in their head that the Sangheili are without flaw in both their character and society, and that what is cool must automatically apply to all of them. If they think like that then I guess they should also have to deal with these negatives similarly. Most folk tried to play them down rather than just say "opinions differ". I think it is quite naive to do that really.

  • 03.03.2011 5:05 PM PDT

I am Field Master Avu Med 'Telcam, Servant of the Abiding Truth, and I have many brothers.

A god who creates tools is still a god. It is not for us to impose qualifications upon the divine or presume to guess its intentions.

As a wise sangheili once said:

"There is heresy, and then there is heresy."- Lak 'Vadamee

For those of you who know where this quote originated, you'll understand what I'm getting at.

[Edited on 03.03.2011 6:00 PM PST]

  • 03.03.2011 5:58 PM PDT
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Most alien 'hats' in the modern age exist to highlight the fact that an entire "proud warrior/heroic doctor/priestly" race is wholly unsustainable in reality.

  • 03.03.2011 6:08 PM PDT
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I like the Mk V armor.

That's why, in a way, Brutes are much more honorable than Sangheli. Look at the Jiralhanae in Halo Evolutions, Stomping at the heels of a Fuss.

The brutes no their limitations, and accept the shame upon them. Except for the two brothers who are complete zealots.

Look at Tartarus, he killed his uncle because of his unjustness.

We think they are just apes, but we just don't understand their mentality other than acting on orders.

Brutes are religious beasts, but not how the halo community really thinks.

Sangheili are also honorable, it's just they get pissed and are completely mislead. I would blow your head off if god told me to.

  • 03.03.2011 8:35 PM PDT

I am Field Master Avu Med 'Telcam, Servant of the Abiding Truth, and I have many brothers.

A god who creates tools is still a god. It is not for us to impose qualifications upon the divine or presume to guess its intentions.

Posted by: egore11
That's why, in a way, Brutes are much more honorable than Sangheli. Look at the Jiralhanae in Halo Evolutions, Stomping at the heels of a Fuss.

The brutes no their limitations, and accept the shame upon them. Except for the two brothers who are complete zealots.

Look at Tartarus, he killed his uncle because of his unjustness.

We think they are just apes, but we just don't understand their mentality other than acting on orders.

Brutes are religious beasts, but not how the halo community really thinks.

Sangheili are also honorable, it's just they get pissed and are completely mislead. I would blow your head off if god told me to.
A lot of this could be argued. But I'm too tired to do so. Brutes are stupid animals. In my opinion. Now time for bed.

  • 03.03.2011 8:36 PM PDT


Posted by: egore11
That's why, in a way, Brutes are much more honorable than Sangheli. Look at the Jiralhanae in Halo Evolutions, Stomping at the heels of a Fuss.

The brutes no their limitations, and accept the shame upon them. Except for the two brothers who are complete zealots.

Look at Tartarus, he killed his uncle because of his unjustness.

We think they are just apes, but we just don't understand their mentality other than acting on orders.

Brutes are religious beasts, but not how the halo community really thinks.

Sangheili are also honorable, it's just they get pissed and are completely mislead. I would blow your head off if god told me to.


Brutes have an intelligence, however they are simpler minded and are easier pawns to manipulate. That's why Truth elevated them. He knew he could control the Brutes no matter what, where the Elite wouldn't be so easy. (Look at delta halo control room, even after hearing the truth about the Great Journey Tartarus defends the Prophets and starts it.)

  • 03.03.2011 8:38 PM PDT
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I like the Mk V armor.


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: egore11
That's why, in a way, Brutes are much more honorable than Sangheli. Look at the Jiralhanae in Halo Evolutions, Stomping at the heels of a Fuss.

The brutes no their limitations, and accept the shame upon them. Except for the two brothers who are complete zealots.

Look at Tartarus, he killed his uncle because of his unjustness.

We think they are just apes, but we just don't understand their mentality other than acting on orders.

Brutes are religious beasts, but not how the halo community really thinks.

Sangheili are also honorable, it's just they get pissed and are completely mislead. I would blow your head off if god told me to.


Brutes have an intelligence, however they are simpler minded and are easier pawns to manipulate. That's why Truth elevated them. He knew he could control the Brutes no matter what, where the Elite wouldn't be so easy. (Look at delta halo control room, even after hearing the truth about the Great Journey Tartarus defends the Prophets and starts it.)

Oh the irony...He defended his honor. Kinda funny. Everything has flaws. Brutes have many. Humans have many. Elites have many.

Each one is the same.

  • 03.03.2011 8:41 PM PDT


Posted by: egore11

Oh the irony...He defended his honor. Kinda funny. Everything has flaws. Brutes have many. Humans have many. Elites have many.

Each one is the same.


Not sure how he 'defended his honor' in that situation, Look at the two responses.

Arbiter: "That's the truth... The prophets have lied to us."
Tartarus: "The Forerunner AI LIES! I'll start the great journey!"

One is of a person seeing how he had been misled, the other is of a person refusing to believe the truth, and blindly following the leaders.

Edit: Not saying Elites don't have flaws, but they were removed from power because they wouldn't follow the Prophets as much as the Brutes.

[Edited on 03.03.2011 8:55 PM PST]

  • 03.03.2011 8:53 PM PDT

I wake up to find myself
After all these years
And where all the time has gone
Still seems so unclear

Listen... Guys...

Honor to the Sangheili of the Covenant is to kill as many filthy heretics as possible.
"Honor" to you may be a "fair" fight. But as the "weak, filthy, heretics" Sangheili see humans as, it is a divine command. Humans very existence is sacrilege to them.

Honor to pre-schism Sangheili was to follow the Prophet's commands to a letter. I'm sure when they were ordered to attack "infested" planets, they were told to use utmost prejudice to conquer the "inferior" race of humans.

Your human version of honor does not have the same definition, as the Sangheili did not see them as worthy creatures to fight.

  • 03.04.2011 1:49 AM PDT

On hiding dead bodies:
Posted by: Psuedo
Posted by: teh Chaz
Inside another dead body. It's the last place they'll look
A corpse within a corpse.
CORPSEPTION.
Win.

Durandal, it is stated in several places; The Cole Protocol being one of them and even The Package short from Legends; about what the Sangheili cod of honour is and implies. When Zhar is attacked by the wounded Faison, he equates his predicament to the Sangheili honour code - when wounded, you have lost honour and must attempt to regain it by killing enemies with your final acts.
Zhar reconsiders the war there and then, as to whether or not humans are truly dishonourable.
So far as I'm aware, this is one of the first instances of Sangheili questioning the Prophet's order to exterminate humanity rather than accept them into the Covenant.Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
While you can't simply go "Oh the Elite's didn't mean it.", you can pardon them partly.

A few elites questioned why the Prophets didn't give humanity a choice about joining the Covenant as it had with every other race.

Oh, and the fleet which was destroyed by the Nova bomb? It was headed by an admiral who still believe the Great Journey was real, and was going to wipe out all the humans, brutes, and prophets before continuing to it.

The other Elites saw it was a lie.
But that exact fleet was the main Sangheili fleet. Xytan called every available Sangheili shipmaster to arms, and more than 200 warships answered this call to war. The Elites who did believe the Great Journey was a lie would have been a stark minority compared to this huge fleet.


Anton, I do agree with your point. As for killing Noble 6, however:
Very well, he is, as of that moment, unable to fight back. However, he had only just been disarmed, so I doubt that this would have voided his merit for being killed.
Not to mention, Six had single-handedly killed thousands of Covenant infantry, and would have been a high-priority target regardless of whether or not he was armed. I doubt that Lord Hood, Captain Keyes or Professor Halsey would have kept themselves armed (Keyes carried a pistol, but left it unloaded), and most if not all three would have been incapable of single-handedly facing off against an Elite in battle. Yet all three of them were, or would have made, high value targets to the Covenant.
Given the opportunity (as Keyes had done), the Elites would have scrambled over each other to kill them, as they did to Six.

[Edited on 03.04.2011 2:23 AM PST]

  • 03.04.2011 2:18 AM PDT

I wake up to find myself
After all these years
And where all the time has gone
Still seems so unclear

Yes, I realize that.

However, just one Sangheili's view of it doesn't mean that was everyone's view of it.

Ripa 'Moramee thought of the humans as "weak and undisciplined" and therefore did not take them seriously. Or at least not Forge seriously.

In the books(Cole), their honor was their "blood" itself. Their lifeblood. However, in the Graphic novel, when Rtas was injured in practice, he did not show concern for his bloodline. To me, that means that not all Sangheili viewed their honor the same way. It may depend on which State they originated.

"None will exist to say whether you were defeated by valor or cruelty."
"It is said remorse is the pain of sin. We feel no remorse."
"When no single human brick lies atop another, then will we be satisfied with your destruction."

These were all transmissons sent to the PoA. Do those sound like they view humans with respect? No. They do not. They have no remorse for killing them, as they are unworthy opponents.

Sounds to me they're only honorable(by our standards) to those who deserve it in their eyes.
Do you really think an honorable human would think twice stepping on mouse? Or a spider? No. Even the most honorable would not think twice. I would not challenge a mouse to unarmed "honor" combat.

  • 03.04.2011 3:45 AM PDT

Duranadal, I remember the Elites view bleeding, if caused by combat, to not dishonor them. However bleeding from a surgery was looked down upon.

  • 03.04.2011 4:26 AM PDT

Posted By: anton1792
They do. They did not waste any time with Reach or Jericho. After the UNSC fleets and armies were defeated the Covenant got straight to glassing population centres. Kholo had nothing left, not even Weather Satellites were left. The Covenant could have proceeded like normal, but did not. For some reason, they decided to waste time and resources by sending thousands of soldiers into towns and cities that were going to be glassed anyway.

Refer to above point. You can spend a few hours glassing or days/weeks hunting down every last person and the result is the same anyway. They went down for, I could only guess, sport.


I got the distinct impression from the motion comic that they went down to Kholo's surface for the same reason they always did, to neutralize the UNSC military presence, and once that was done glassing it. And the Shipmaster wasn't truly in charge of the ship anyway, there was one of the Minor Prophets on board if you'll remember, and we don't really know what sorts of absurd things they demand of their Shipmaster's, it is entirely possible he is responsible for it.

Why is there no glory in it? I think you are trying to escape the fact that it is an unfairness and so that is the justification for there being no glory in it. Regardless if they view it as a null act, it is still violating that principle. In that case, it ceases to be honour.

Your analogy. It would be entirely dependant on the morals of the wrestler. However, considering that the Sangheili are not "doing it for fun", I cannot see any pertinence here.

An integral part of honour is sticking to your beliefs, it is called having integrity. Not sticking to them is dishonourable. It is a difficult thing to earn but an easy thing to lose.


I clearly stated why I believe that there would be no glory in it from a Sangheili's perspective, it would not be a challenge and there would be no gaining of battle prowess from it. All this means is that there is no honor to be gained from it, it is a neutral activity in terms of acquiring honor to the Sangheili in much the same way my wrestler analogy is.

Do I agree with the slaughter of helpless civilians? No, but do I think the Elites are not upholding their own honor code by doing so? No, I do not, their culture is rather similar in view of warfare to more ancient times in our history where the slaughter of all enemies, whether military or civilian, was common place and not viewed as barbarism like we view it today.

Not every Elite is a commander though. You seem to be implying that. They are also not infrequent either. They are one of the most populous races and dedicate nearly all of their manpower to military endeavours. The existence of the Grunts primarily as Canon fodder, to go in first when the Elites have all the manpower and commanders they need tells me that there is something iffy about them.

That is true, and I am not implying that, I am merely stating that you do not put your commanders on the front lines.

I wouldn't go so far as to claim that, as I do not have any sort of population number to go by, but from everything I've ever seen I think most of the other Covenant species outnumber them, except for the Prophets who have the lowest population of all, in every instance we've seen the other Covenant Species have generally had many more numbers than the Elites.

And Grunts serving as the main infantry strikes me as very smart and tactical brilliance, it makes sense, does it not, for the most numerous species to be made the main infantry in your army?

That is irrelevant to the Elites holding the front line with their own blood rather than using another race. They could easily go in with the Unggoy.

And they do, all the -blam!-ing time, and whenever you don't find Elites on the front lines with the other lesser ranked species, it's the Brutes in command. Have you even played the games, dumbass?

Well we can debate his tone of voice all day and it will probably not get anywhere. When he tore his way into the tent, he still had to decide whether he wanted to kill or subdue anything inside. Do you not also find it a bit suspicious how he was willing to leave that Human for dead, but when it suited him, he decided to save him? He has not got that Humans interests in mind. The torture line was made out to sound like an ultimatum. If the Human does not give him what he wants, he should expect it.

Yeah, and in case you don't remember, he had just fought off a bunch of Jackals, fortune favors the prepared, so the saying goes, and if you just fought the enemy off and are about to enter a structure it makes sense to keep on the alert and act as if the enemy could jump out of anywhere, he didn't know what was in the tent.

He didn't do anything for the human at first because he thought the human was beyond all aid, and then when he found out that Humanity knew more about Forerunner tech, or were at least making headway with it, he decided he'd do what he could to save him/her.

  • 03.04.2011 7:47 AM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: OrderedComa
That is irrelevant to the Elites holding the front line with their own blood rather than using another race. They could easily go in with the Unggoy.

And they do, all the -blam!-ing time, and whenever you don't find Elites on the front lines with the other lesser ranked species, it's the Brutes in command. Have you even played the games, dumbass?

Sangheili population is 8.135 billion.
Grunt population is 320 million.

It is not a case of Grunts being the most populous. So it seems quite inverse the way they number themselves with respect to each other.

Also, calm the f­uck down, seriously. You are always getting adversarial with people in discussions. It is such a big deal!!! Anyway, it seems mostly as though people can see no wrong in them. They have good aspects but they also have an unpredictable tendency for pettiness and to act very poorly. That was the whole point of this thread really, but all it shows me is that people mostly think of them as being ... infallible.

Another example of this selective thinking is people quoting all the instances were Elites refer to Humans in derogatory terms, yet always omit the ones that refer to it in a more positive light.

  • 03.04.2011 9:19 AM PDT

On hiding dead bodies:
Posted by: Psuedo
Posted by: teh Chaz
Inside another dead body. It's the last place they'll look
A corpse within a corpse.
CORPSEPTION.
Win.

Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: OrderedComa
That is irrelevant to the Elites holding the front line with their own blood rather than using another race. They could easily go in with the Unggoy.

And they do, all the -blam!-ing time, and whenever you don't find Elites on the front lines with the other lesser ranked species, it's the Brutes in command. Have you even played the games, dumbass?

Sangheili population is 8.135 billion.
Grunt population is 320 million.

It is not a case of Grunts being the most populous. So it seems quite inverse the way they number themselves with respect to each other.

Also, calm the f­uck down, seriously. You are always getting adversarial with people in discussions. It is such a big deal!!! Anyway, it seems mostly as though people can see no wrong in them. They have good aspects but they also have an unpredictable tendency for pettiness and to act very poorly. That was the whole point of this thread really, but all it shows me is that people mostly think of them as being ... infallible.

Another example of this selective thinking is people quoting all the instances were Elites refer to Humans in derogatory terms, yet always omit the ones that refer to it in a more positive light.
That grunt population was taken at the end of the war, I presume?

Shortly before the war, the Grunt homeworld was completely razed by orbital bombardment, save for a small area, which is probably what reduced their number so horrifically.
Plus, they breed like crazy to provide military men.

  • 03.05.2011 5:19 AM PDT

Vengeance only leads to an ongoing cycle of hatred.

Elite's are so hypocritical. They talk so much of honor, yet they glass planets. Oh yeah, that's real honorable. Let's glass a planet where they can't defend themselves and we can sit, nice and cozy, in our ship...sipping a cup o tea.

  • 03.05.2011 5:36 AM PDT

Posted by:ScubaToaster
Posted by: HipiO7
This man, this man right here put it so eloquently that I actually cancelled my own 2000+ word long post.
/slow clap for respect


:)
The person who said participating is important, not winning, obviously never won anything.

I hated how Elite honor was shown in Cole Protocole, at most times it was simply stupid, overworked.

The whole blood thing was pretty dumb to me. I mean I can understand it, but part of being a warrior is get wounded and loosing blood... And then the disrespect for Elite doctors...

  • 03.05.2011 6:21 AM PDT


Posted by: SEAL Sniper 9
Elite's are so hypocritical. They talk so much of honor, yet they glass planets. Oh yeah, that's real honorable. Let's glass a planet where they can't defend themselves and we can sit, nice and cozy, in our ship...sipping a cup o tea.


Elite honor and human honor are not the same thing. Most of the time the glassing came about AFTER both the ground and space battle.


Posted by: HipiO7
I hated how Elite honor was shown in Cole Protocole, at most times it was simply stupid, overworked.

The whole blood thing was pretty dumb to me. I mean I can understand it, but part of being a warrior is get wounded and loosing blood... And then the disrespect for Elite doctors...


They consider bleeding from combat to not be dishonorable. It's out of combat that you are referring to.

  • 03.05.2011 6:33 AM PDT

*reminisces when the Bungie/Halo community wasn't made up of CoD kids*
*sighs*
*activates time-machine and sets the clock back to Nov. 9, 2004*
glory days here I come..
*vanishes*

They joined with the Humans because they had a mutual enemy.

And Elites do have a code of honor, similar to Bushido.

Perhaps stealth Elites are less honorable Elites that do the shameful tasks.

And they had to break their morals because of the Covenant's religious belief of humans being unclean.

As Fal once said "Sanghelios was strong before this Covenant. We fight not for honor but for power."

The Covenant Elites were mixed between fighting like true warriors and mass murderers.

  • 03.05.2011 7:22 AM PDT

Posted by: iamironman4611
"Hello, I am Ring Moniter 666 John Cena".

Just to touch on the Noble 6 point, he was Hyper Lethal. He killed a metric ass-ton of elites. I think at that point they cared more about him being dead.

  • 03.05.2011 9:23 AM PDT


Posted by: PunxsatownyPhil
Just to touch on the Noble 6 point, he was Hyper Lethal. He killed a metric ass-ton of elites. I think at that point they cared more about him being dead.


I don't really think they were 'holding him down' They went to finish him a few times but he kept on tossing them back.

  • 03.05.2011 9:34 AM PDT

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: PunxsatownyPhil
Just to touch on the Noble 6 point, he was Hyper Lethal. He killed a metric ass-ton of elites. I think at that point they cared more about him being dead.


I don't really think they were 'holding him down' They went to finish him a few times but he kept on tossing them back.


That, and he was a 'demon', they all wanted the honor of killing him.

  • 03.05.2011 12:03 PM PDT

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