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Subject: Why do people have a problem with Reachs Campaign?
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Boomer.
Best. Ship. Ever!

I hate the campaign because it destroyed the canon of the books. The journal was Bungie's attempt to make it connect with the books but it doesn't fix much.

  • 03.11.2011 3:20 PM PDT

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

Posted by: gromman1000
You do realize a good commander should never show too much emotion about a loss?

And since they're Spartans, which don't have much emotion in the first place, then that makes perfect sense.


1) This is not true. Sure, a commander shouldn't show himself broken in front of his team but he shouldn't be immune to it either. A good example of this is Saving Private Ryan. Their CO was obviously not immune to the horrors he experienced on the battlefield. In fact, they had several scenes dedicated to displaying that fact and there was one guy who knew about the problem in the group (which is the case for most of these scenarios).

A way to remedy the apparent lack of importance of Kat's death (a good idea executed poorly) would be to have Carter open up to Noble in another part of the game. Noble is new and trustworthy and breaking his game in front of a group who sees him as unbreakable would be detrimental to the team. This can be anything from bawling his eyes out to just stating his reasons for moving on and re-establishing his will to move on. But there was none of that.

2) Spartan II's were emotionless. Spartan III's were actually quite spunky.

  • 03.11.2011 3:29 PM PDT

http://www.halo-forum.com

Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
Spartan II's were emotionless. Spartan III's were actually quite spunky.

I think the interpretation of IIs being emotionless killing machine's is wrong. I think the novels show that although they are disciplined and determined soldiers that, in their own way at least, are emotional, albeit not in the sense that they react the same way a a person who grew up in normal society. Also Jorge seems to be a clear example of Spartan IIs being more human than we give them credit for. I'd say that the IIs are as "spunky" as the IIIs apparently are. For example, Fred, John, Kurt etc. all react to a fellow Spartan's death in the same non-reactive way that Carter does to Kat's death. Outwardly Spartans do not show their feelings on the matter but inside it does effect them somewhat. However, their training allows them to bypass these emotions for the sake of their mission's success.

  • 03.11.2011 3:37 PM PDT


Posted by: Caaaarrrl

Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: Caaaarrrl
Where the hell have you been all this time?! I was beginning to think I was the only person who likes Reach!


I like Reach, Caaaarrrl :D So you're not alone out there.


I hope there are more people who share our opinion than just those who said it in this thread.


Well all of my friends that I've had any sort of canon discussion with has liked the campaign a ton, so we are not alone, and I'm sure there a lot of lovers/likers of the story amongst the silent masses who don't come on Bungie. I believe the people hating on Reach here is what you'd call the vocal minority.

  • 03.11.2011 3:39 PM PDT

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

Posted by: switch 104 sv
I think the interpretation of IIs being emotionless killing machine's is wrong. I think the novels show that although they are disciplined and determined soldiers that, in their own way at least, are emotional, albeit not in the sense that they react the same way a a person who grew up in normal society. Also Jorge seems to be a clear example of Spartan IIs being more human than we give them credit for. I'd say that the IIs are as "spunky" as the IIIs apparently are. For example, Fred, John, Kurt etc. all react to a fellow Spartan's death in the same non-reactive way that Carter does to Kat's death. Outwardly Spartans do not show their feelings on the matter but inside it does effect them somewhat. However, their training allows them to bypass these emotions for the sake of their mission's success.

You are right, but I'm talking on an external sense. If you spoke to a Spartan II they'd be a stone wall. Speak with a Spartan III and you could get anything from the above to a fairly sarcastic tone. The Spartan III's were older (therefore more cultured) and had a shorter disciplinary period. They were Spartans, but the certaintly didn't have the same composure as a II.

Still, a novel is far different from a game. Showing internal struggle is easier. The fact they showed it is also what makes a difference. In the game, however, it was omitted. We can assume it effected him but assumptions aren't proof nor do they evoke any emotion/connection from the player. You must illustrate the situation which means visual cues, vocal cues and other events that show Carter was feeling her loss. The only hint we even got was that they took the time to drag her into cover.

  • 03.11.2011 3:50 PM PDT


Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: Caaaarrrl

Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: Caaaarrrl
Where the hell have you been all this time?! I was beginning to think I was the only person who likes Reach!


I like Reach, Caaaarrrl :D So you're not alone out there.


I hope there are more people who share our opinion than just those who said it in this thread.


Well all of my friends that I've had any sort of canon discussion with has liked the campaign a ton, so we are not alone, and I'm sure there a lot of lovers/likers of the story amongst the silent masses who don't come on Bungie. I believe the people hating on Reach here is what you'd call the vocal minority.


A complete and utterly 'lore nerd' friend of mine has very few issues with the Reach campaign. Same here. Can't honestly explain why these guys are nit-picking everything...

  • 03.11.2011 3:51 PM PDT


Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
Posted by: switch 104 sv
I think the interpretation of IIs being emotionless killing machine's is wrong. I think the novels show that although they are disciplined and determined soldiers that, in their own way at least, are emotional, albeit not in the sense that they react the same way a a person who grew up in normal society. Also Jorge seems to be a clear example of Spartan IIs being more human than we give them credit for. I'd say that the IIs are as "spunky" as the IIIs apparently are. For example, Fred, John, Kurt etc. all react to a fellow Spartan's death in the same non-reactive way that Carter does to Kat's death. Outwardly Spartans do not show their feelings on the matter but inside it does effect them somewhat. However, their training allows them to bypass these emotions for the sake of their mission's success.

You are right, but I'm talking on an external sense. If you spoke to a Spartan II they'd be a stone wall. Speak with a Spartan III and you could get anything from the above to a fairly sarcastic tone. The Spartan III's were older (therefore more cultured) and had a shorter disciplinary period. They were Spartans, but the certaintly didn't have the same composure as a II.

Still, a novel is far different from a game. Showing internal struggle is easier. The fact they showed it is also what makes a difference. In the game, however, it was omitted. We can assume it effected him but assumptions aren't proof nor do they evoke any emotion/connection from the player. You must illustrate the situation which means visual cues, vocal cues and other events that show Carter was feeling her loss. The only hint we even got was that they took the time to drag her into cover.


I'm sorry, but at the start of "The Package" it was very clear to me Carter was taking her loss pretty hard.

A: He carried her corpse from the bunker to the extraction point in NA.
B: He took a good bit to respond to Holland, something that he never did before.
C: His tone of voice was different, to me it was much sadder/tired then his usual tone of voice.

  • 03.11.2011 3:54 PM PDT

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
I'm sorry, but at the start of "The Package" it was very clear to me Carter was taking her loss pretty hard.

A: He carried her corpse from the bunker to the extraction point in NA.
B: He took a good bit to respond to Holland, something that he never did before.
C: His tone of voice was different, to me it was much sadder/tired then his usual tone of voice.

A: A generic tendency for any soldier. Actually, so much so that the strategy for snipers is shoot one to take down multiple (cause soldiers stop to help).

B: WAY too subtle. I'm talking about just after her being shot a scene dedicated to dealing with it. At least a shot or a few seconds. Nothing was what we got. The team had miraculously dealt with it and moved on during the fade.

C: Could be for any reason and honestly that is also way too subtle.

  • 03.11.2011 4:01 PM PDT


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: Caaaarrrl

Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: Caaaarrrl
Where the hell have you been all this time?! I was beginning to think I was the only person who likes Reach!


I like Reach, Caaaarrrl :D So you're not alone out there.


I hope there are more people who share our opinion than just those who said it in this thread.


Well all of my friends that I've had any sort of canon discussion with has liked the campaign a ton, so we are not alone, and I'm sure there a lot of lovers/likers of the story amongst the silent masses who don't come on Bungie. I believe the people hating on Reach here is what you'd call the vocal minority.


A complete and utterly 'lore nerd' friend of mine has very few issues with the Reach campaign. Same here. Can't honestly explain why these guys are nit-picking everything...


I'm the "lore nerd" amongst my friends, but one of mine is kinda close to it, he's the one I talk most about Halo with, and he doesn't have any "lose sleep over" problems with Reach. So yeah, I don't see what the big deal is at all, other than people taking the changes too personally or don't like change and feel that stories should never, ever have retcons, even if it makes the story better.

  • 03.11.2011 4:11 PM PDT

http://www.halo-forum.com

Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
Posted by: switch 104 sv
I think the interpretation of IIs being emotionless killing machine's is wrong. I think the novels show that although they are disciplined and determined soldiers that, in their own way at least, are emotional, albeit not in the sense that they react the same way a a person who grew up in normal society. Also Jorge seems to be a clear example of Spartan IIs being more human than we give them credit for. I'd say that the IIs are as "spunky" as the IIIs apparently are. For example, Fred, John, Kurt etc. all react to a fellow Spartan's death in the same non-reactive way that Carter does to Kat's death. Outwardly Spartans do not show their feelings on the matter but inside it does effect them somewhat. However, their training allows them to bypass these emotions for the sake of their mission's success.

You are right, but I'm talking on an external sense. If you spoke to a Spartan II they'd be a stone wall. Speak with a Spartan III and you could get anything from the above to a fairly sarcastic tone. The Spartan III's were older (therefore more cultured) and had a shorter disciplinary period. They were Spartans, but the certaintly didn't have the same composure as a II.

Still, a novel is far different from a game. Showing internal struggle is easier. The fact they showed it is also what makes a difference. In the game, however, it was omitted. We can assume it effected him but assumptions aren't proof nor do they evoke any emotion/connection from the player. You must illustrate the situation which means visual cues, vocal cues and other events that show Carter was feeling her loss. The only hint we even got was that they took the time to drag her into cover.

The IIs are not as stone wall as you make out. They make jokes ("piss poor odds for the little guys"), use sarcasm("Didn't think anyone survived Pegasi sir?"), they laugh etc, etc. They are not blank robotic personalities.

  • 03.11.2011 4:13 PM PDT

-blam!- Was that actually blammed out? Or did I just type it? You'll never know.

The story was unsatisfactory. I still liked it, but story-wise it could have been way better. Also, better friendly AI would have actually made me give a damn about anyone's death but Jorge's.

  • 03.11.2011 4:13 PM PDT
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Posted by: Thugzz Deluxxxe
I loved the campaign in Reach. It's a fabulous story. The characters were extremely well developed and it portrayed the desperation of the planet.

What people don't like is that Reach's story, as great as it may be, stepped on the feet of the already established backstory.



Same goes for me. I loved it, but I was also really annoyed.

  • 03.11.2011 6:31 PM PDT

What i do like is the fact that a covenant supercarrier is seen up close for the first time as i had read about them on halowiki and FUUCK ME!! THEY ARE HUGE!!


At the end of the spire mission when it blew up the frigate was like comparing a kitten to an african lion in size.

MASSIVE!!

  • 03.12.2011 2:59 AM PDT

keegan doherty

how an anyone not like reach its awsome great story line charaters with atual depth and point

emile<3 epic death

  • 03.12.2011 3:26 AM PDT

story =/= canon.

  • 03.12.2011 3:28 AM PDT
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My jokes, so I don't lose them (ignore this):
ZedFish's Opinion on Sgt. Foley.
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Posted by: Spartan999
I love Reach's campaign, save some ridiculous AI behaviors (the Brutes' and Elites' tendency to just run straight at you for 100ft or more, and the fact that Elites and Skirmishers strafe with zero momentum change), but I don't like how they changed the previously established story for the game. Like Greg Bear has said, it is cleverer to tell your story within the confines of the previously established story, rather than change it all to give you an excuse to do whatever you want. That is kind of selfish, in my opinion.
This, in every way possible.

It's a great campaign, but the puzzle piece has been pounded into place, rather than gently placed in so it fits.
I thoroughly enjoyed it, but it still has some minor (in my eyes, the ones I am concerned about can be relatively easy to explain or change) canon faults.

[Edited on 03.12.2011 4:27 AM PST]

  • 03.12.2011 3:30 AM PDT

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

Posted by: switch 104 sv
The IIs are not as stone wall as you make out. They make jokes ("piss poor odds for the little guys"), use sarcasm("Didn't think anyone survived Pegasi sir?"), they laugh etc, etc. They are not blank robotic personalities.

You don't have to lack a sense of humor to be a stone wall personality. But through the entire series there is only one or two areas where the Spartan II's show a significant amount of emotion. One is inside the Covenant station when I think it is Kelly who remembers a past event and they reminisce. Not really sure about any others. And you don't have to vocalize your thoughts to have a personality either.

  • 03.12.2011 3:33 AM PDT

Forgettable characters with no real sense of purpose until the last mission when most of them are dead.

A terrible depiction of the planet and the scale of the battle. They made reach out to be like a pitiful farming colony.

If you re-watch the announcement trailer and the first in game trailer, it seems like bungie originally used the novels timeline for the battle, but they said Ahhh F it, we want to do our own their, damn established canon!

Just because they made their own story didnt mean they had to make it 100% separate of the established story.

I like bungies story and respect them for what they did, but the did it at the expense of EVERYTHING. They could have made their great story, free of all the shackles of the previous story, then sought to incorporate the two stories together. Instead they make one great story and refuse to rework the previous story to fit with it.

I have zero problems with the new interpretation of reaches fall. I do have a problem with absolutely zero explanation as to how the old story is changes to fit with the new.

[Edited on 03.12.2011 4:13 AM PST]

  • 03.12.2011 4:05 AM PDT

Posted by:ScubaToaster
Posted by: HipiO7
This man, this man right here put it so eloquently that I actually cancelled my own 2000+ word long post.
/slow clap for respect


:)
The person who said participating is important, not winning, obviously never won anything.

I loved the Campaign story, but Bungie could have done it easily alot better. There were alot of things that Bungie had promised that did not show up, or things the fans were taking for granted since it was Reach, and again, did not show up.

The ending of the game was a big WTF with the whole deal with the Pillar of Autumn.

I liked it too, but it could have been done alot better.

  • 03.12.2011 4:06 AM PDT

It wasn't epic. Simple as. It wasn't a bad campaign, but it wasn't Halo.

-blam!- being humble,
-blam!- Spartan-IIIs they suck balls,

We want to be a arse-kicking, duel wielding, 7-and-a-half foot, green, armour-clad, super soldier fighting against impossible odds, filled with subtle humour, with a blue chick in the back of our heads and coming out the other side battered, bruised but alive!

We want to comply with established canon, we want to be the lone wolf, we want to be the only person capable of stopping the alien hordes.
Fighing as a team, and losing. That's for the poor sods you read or hear about. It's not for the main character(s). We are the hero, we are the one every looks up to, that everyone hides behind because we are the one person, the one weapon that the enemy is afraid of.

Reach has none of that, and that is why I don't like Reach as a Halo game. Noble team should have been a novel, or an accompainying cut-scene-story that played alongside the main campaign.

  • 03.12.2011 4:24 AM PDT


Posted by: Caaaarrrl
Where the hell have you been all this time?! I was beginning to think I was the only person who likes Reach!


The people who like reach have less to complain about and so are very underepresented on the forums.

  • 03.12.2011 4:37 AM PDT


Posted by: Xalrons4410

Posted by: Caaaarrrl
Where the hell have you been all this time?! I was beginning to think I was the only person who likes Reach!


The people who like reach have less to complain about and so are very underepresented on the forums.


QFT, all the people who like Reach probably will not come on to make a post saying how much they like it. They may be the minority on the forums, but they're silent majority outside of them, no one I've talked to outside the forums has said that the Halo Reach campaign was bad or destroyed canon, and these are not just people who play the games, they're people who are at least somewhat knowledgeable of the lore in the Haloverse.

  • 03.12.2011 7:56 PM PDT


Posted by: Dustin 6047
agreed. we will levy war against all halo reach campaign haters.


We shall unleash the cleansing flames and purge the heresy from our midst. We are the ones who tread the blessed path, those who would subvert our Holy Covenant shall be stayed by the weight of their heresy and be left behind. None of them will live to crawl blackened from their holes, to mar the reflection of our passage, the culmination of our Great Journey!

XD heehee, ranting like a Prophet is fun, lol.

  • 03.12.2011 8:32 PM PDT

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