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Subject: A Small Idea

bah

Well, time to be constructive again. We need to think of an idea as to how to solve these repeating topic problems. The most obvious solution is to have a search function, but that's time consuming to write, and definitely not going to happen anytime soon. We can alleviate some of the problems with some common posts using a less drastic approach. 2 common posts, favorite level and favorite gun, are great examples. Put up a poll in the voting booth, after a few hundred votes, post the official results in one of the stickies. There will still be those who don't read the stickies (I just read one, said something about no using the word noob. Who would've thunk?) but for those who do read them, they might not make the common posts that new guys make.

Also, an effort really needs to be made for a guide to new guys. A post of do's and don'ts that we can point out at every turn. I hvae a handy dandy area at Newb World that I've dubbed all you need to know. It has many great pointers for new people, but I know it could use a lot of improving.

Less talk, more action. What should we do and who's willing to help me do it?

[Edited on 8/26/2004 1:04:45 AM]

  • 08.25.2004 12:28 AM PDT
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I'll help, as long as I don't have to sacrifice too much. What do you plan to do, exactly, as a solution?

  • 08.25.2004 12:36 AM PDT

bah

Well, for starters, we should somehow organise what goes on around here. Like I said, several topics get repeated often. I'll start off by making a list of topics that would make good polls:
Favorite level
Favorite gun
What's your take on ILB

If we only accomplished organising people's opinions into 3 polls, we'd accomplish something.

*New idea* Also, it would be great if people would step up and put nagative pressure on bad behavior, but don't flame. Saying stuff like "That's not nice" is much more effective than "Your opinion sucks." The mods aren't the only ones who should handle flames. Flamers naturally hate authority, so if it comes from regular users, they will see that their behavior is frowned upon.

*New idea* We should find a way to encourage good behavior, not just on new guys, but on old members too. I propose we have a thread here stickied each week where people could post how they helped someone out in some thread. This would reward people with the good karma that comes from people knowing you did a good job. I feel this would greatly encourage some of our senior members to actively help to improve the forums.

[Edited on 8/25/2004 2:17:03 AM]

  • 08.25.2004 1:04 AM PDT
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No wait he has posted it. Nevermind.

[Edited on 8/25/2004 1:25:31 AM]

  • 08.25.2004 1:20 AM PDT

STOP EXPLODING YOU COWARDS!

Whatever happens i want to help, i may be kind of new here but i am no idiot.

  • 08.25.2004 9:11 AM PDT
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Less talk, more action. What should we do and who's willing to help me do it?

That's ironic because all we can do is talk, lol. I think we need threads for threads. An example:

Halo 2:
Guns:
Member's threads for guns

Now Guns would be like a permenant topic. Then people could post threads in the topic. It would be a little more organized, but still confusing. I don't think it will ever be as organized as it was (which if you think about it, it really wasn't, lol). There are just so many things we could do to organize this place, but difficulties may come along with ideas.

  • 08.25.2004 10:55 AM PDT
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The United States of America-- STILL more rights than North Korea!
--New official U.S. motto.

Cronin's Law----The New Flood Drinking Game

the best course of action is to have a couple of us here put together a guide and submit it as a news story and a post it on the forums at the same time. its a good bet that it would be accepted as a news story, and stickied at the same time. the guide would cover most of the common mistakes, answer most of the common questions, and other stuff. it could go something like:
1.Posting ettiqite(sp?)(breif overveiw of rules, no flaming, no noob, spell/grammer)

2.common questions w/ answers (i.e. what is marathon? will there be a halo3? is the yellow banshee real? etc.)
3.a list of common subjects that they should avoid (fav gun, xboxes name, etc.)

4.clearly defines each forum and its purpose (many new ppl get mixed up)

5.links to important stuff many new ppl go to (HBO, Weekly update page, halo2 vids and screenshots etc.)

6.overveiw of functions (signatures, messages, etc.)

this would serve to educate new people of all levels of intelligence. the smarter people wouldnt really need it, but for some people... they would need every scrap of information in it.

  • 08.25.2004 11:26 AM PDT

bah

I like the idea of a guide. I'll start writing one tonight using my databases to help a bit. I could write it all alone, by myself, but I think a public writing would be more effective. A post written by senior members for the new guys would have a lot more impact than a message written by one or two new guys. I'll write the main post, but then people here can post ideas about what they want to add. Should the post be here in this thread, or make a new thread? I think a new thread is in order for it so we can point it out to new guys that it was written by everyone.

I would want the good posts topic to be stickied each week as a way to draw attention to the good deeds of people here. And simply aknowledging a flamer isn't bad as long as the aknowledgement is simply a neutral you're being mean message. Ignoring a troll makes them go away, but ignoring a flamer simply makes them feel like what they're doing is accepted by us. If we simply state that they're being bad, positive peer pressure can work wonders.

[Edited on 8/25/2004 1:40:12 PM]

  • 08.25.2004 1:37 PM PDT

We're currently discussing some very exciting ideas. Keep your eyes peeled!

  • 08.25.2004 1:40 PM PDT

bah

Maybe some of these ides that the mods are discussing could leak into the main forum here so as everyone could take a look? Or are these ideas going down between you guys and Bungie. I'd say if they aren't implemented within 2 weeks, we should go ahead with an idea here anyways, if not just to test the idea of self organization. Bunige said something aboout the Column organizing itself, and ideas of a council were broought up once. I never liked the plan too much, but we can always go with the purely democratic idea of making a guide for new people written by all.

  • 08.25.2004 2:00 PM PDT
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i like ideas! there were 7 in that last post u made! wooo ideas galore.....im seenin light bulbs everywhere man....

  • 08.25.2004 2:59 PM PDT
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I would say maybe post a basic outline in here, so that after sugestions are made to it we can post a finished product as a seperate post. Less pollution that way, and this thread still has life in it.

  • 08.25.2004 3:20 PM PDT
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The United States of America-- STILL more rights than North Korea!
--New official U.S. motto.

Cronin's Law----The New Flood Drinking Game

heres a basic outline for Part One (it'll take a while for us to write an entire comprehensive guide and work out all the tweaks. remember all you who write and contribute to it: practice what you preach; grammer and spelling should be decent, follow all the rules.)
anyways... heres my outline for part one. (the title "guided tour of Bungie.net was arbitrarily chosen by me, if anyone has anybetter ideas please say them).
okay really this time, heres my outline for part one:

Guided tour of Bungie.net Part 1 (forum etiquette)

1. Overveiw
Welcome to Bungie.net. Perhaps you are new, or maybe you have been here a while.
Either way, this guide is designed to make the forums a better and more sane place. This guide coversThe basics of where to post, what to post, what not to post, and where to post. I hope it helps some ofYou out, and help the sanity and enjoyability of Bungie.net in general.

2. Rules
For some reason, many of you seem unwilling to read the code of conduct and terms of use.
For you and others who "just haven't gotten around to it yet" here are some basic guidelines:
1. Do not flame
2. Do not make useless and repetitive threads (collectively referred to as "spam")
3. The word n00b, noob, newb, and any other variant is banned. That means never say it
4. No posting or linking to adult content (sry pervs.)
5. Do not post or link to leaked Halo2 beta screenshots/anything else illegal
6. Don't feed the trolls (more on that later)

3. Common Sense
For the sake of everyone's sanity, please use common sense. It is one of the hardest
Things to find in others on the Bungie.net forums, and if you decide to exercise it, theBungie
Community will be just a little bit more enjoyable.

4. Posting
There are many different forums to choose from... where do you put your post?
The following is a list of forums*, what the purpose of each is, and what kind of people to
Expect there.

The Underground:
The Bungie general forums. This is where you would come to discuss marathon and other
Oldschool stuff, as well as general things such as the weekly updates and news stories.
Attention! Topics Pertaining To Halo And Halo2 Do Not Belong Here!
It has to be one of the more irritating things for moderators and the average guy alike; misplaced threads.
The underground is a forum for general discussion, not halo or halo2 discussion.
Who can you expect to meet there? The Underground is, by far, the most varied in user types. There are
New people, old people, smart people, dumb people. (Usually posting about halo2 or halo... don't be like them)
There are usually threads about recent goings-on around the Bungie community, and is usually friendly enough. This is a good place to start out if you are new

The Septagon:
The Bungie community forums. This is where you would come to discuss possible changes to bungie.net and the 7th column. Any game-related topics do not belong here and will be locked by a moderator. This is a calm, sane
Environment populated mostly by oldschoolers and mature newcomers. There are a lot of topics here that have substantial discussion, unlike most of the rest of the Bungie boards. This is a good place to get oriented before moving out into the rest
of the Bungie.net world, as most of the people here are accepting of new people and willing to help you out (why else would we write this guide?), just as long as you stay sane and don't make a jackass out of yourself.

New Mombasa:
The dedicated Halo2 forum. All topics having to do with Halo2 go here. Use at your own risk. New Mombasa is for the large part a Spam arena, home to many people who love to flame and just Generally be stupid. it is not reccomended as a starting point for new people, as everytime you read a thread there your I.Q. drops ten points. New Mombasa is home to many repeat posts every day as well, If you decide to post there please look down and see if there are any topics of interest before you make a
new one. It will make the few sane people there very happy.

The Maw:
The dedicated HaloPC forum. All posts concerning HaloPC go here.
This forum is good if you're having technical problems with HaloPC, also a good place
to discuss various custom maps for haloCE (Custom Edition). There are few topics dealing
with actual plot and gameplay, if you want to talk about that you'll be better off in the library.
the people there a relatively varied; some are nice, some are not. but you would do well to
remember that it is a PC dedicated forum, so if you are fonder of Xbox, the library is recommended

The Library:
This is the Dedicated forum for Halo on the Xbox. Come here to discuss basically
anything about Halo. the people are much the same as in the Maw with a mix between
good and bad. If you are new it is recommended that you spend a few days in either
The Underground or The Septagon before posting here.

*only the main forums are listed and described.

care should be taken in all forums not to re-post
a topic that most people feel is already done to death.
remember, please read topic titles back a page or so before making your first post!

5.Don't Feed the Trolls
While most spam is accidental or unknowingly commited by newer people
or people who have been gone awhile, some people do it maliciously (these people collectively called trolls).
remember that since the troll is calling out for attention, replying will be a victory for him.
so how do you deal with trolls? several ways. you can message a Moderator (Moderators are the users Shishka, Makaveli4life,
Reginko, Yoozel, and Goweb) to have their troll thread locked. this is by far the best approach, but not always possible (mods may
all be offline, etc.). in the meantime never ever ever reply to a troll. if you feed a hungry troll, he will grow and spam more. so replying=no.
if you see someone repeatedly spamming/flaming you might want to tell a mod about it. chances are they already know and are
going to ban him, but he may have escaped their notice, and would doubtless appreciate your help.



  • 08.25.2004 4:12 PM PDT
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Right now (I'm a little pressed for time) I would only like to add a couple things.
1) Sigma is also a mod.
2) The Flood moves quickly enough to deserve some mention.
3) Mods can't ban (As far as I know)
4) Isn't there a place to collectively inform all mods about a troll/flame war/otherwise unacceptable post (I'm pretty sure there is, but I can't find it)?
5) Tell them that they can PM any of the older members (unless one of you has a problem with this) with any questions.

  • 08.25.2004 4:51 PM PDT
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The United States of America-- STILL more rights than North Korea!
--New official U.S. motto.

Cronin's Law----The New Flood Drinking Game

PMing members doesnt do much but for the rest... of course your right. this is why we make rough drafts no? wat other parts will be in this guide? and who is writing them?

  • 08.25.2004 6:29 PM PDT
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Before I state my idea I realize that it probably never see the lights of Bungie but I just ask you dont flame me all to hell (which is ironic because that's a big problem nowadays)

Ok here it goes...
I say there should be a "-blam!- Session" forum where anyone and everyone (ie new, old and even mods) where they can -blam!- their heartout about such things as problems with users (no names just be general), mods (again no names just state the problem and a way to fix it), or the forums in general such as the layout, bugs that are never looked at, things that you might want changed for whatever reason (be sure to back yourself up and get feedback before ranting) just feel free to -blam!- about anything (within reason) really its just a big... um... -blam!- Session
Now we would have to limit it to say 5 "-blam!- Posts" a week persay (so people dont get in heated arguments). There would be some ground rules such as...
1. NO NAMES when ever you point your finger three more and pointing back at you, plus the certain user will no doubt hear about it come in flame your ass you will flame his ass and then the -blam!- that you were trying to get out will die in the flood of spam and swearing... *takes a breath*
2 . Refrain from ecsessive language even though it is a -blam!- Session there are still some young tender ears in this world *cough* 3 *cough*
3. Have some back before you -blam!-... look into what's happening, find people who agree with you, and think of a way that might help or even change the problem.
4. Listen to other peoples' -blam!-es... if you are one of the people that might be causing, or aiding the problem make an effort to stop
5. If you disagree with the -blam!- calm down and dont flip, just state that you think everything is fine in your opinion and help that person see that fact that it everything may infact be fine.
6. If your -blam!- is not reconized try and find more people that agree with you and post again (wait about a week first though because you have to give it a chance to sink in)


Thats all I can think of right now... it's a long shot that will probably never happen but if anyone can add on to it or anything feel free. Oh and Rip and more than happy to help you with your Problem Solving Dilemma ya got goin on here. Just PM me and we'll arange something...

Shifty

  • 08.25.2004 6:54 PM PDT
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The thing about ideas such as "-blam!- sessions" and dedicated spam forums, is that this is a company website, not some webcomic (*cough*pennyarcade*cough*) or underground messageboard. The contents of this site reflect upon Bungie and they obviously don't wish to endorse that kind of behavoir.

  • 08.25.2004 7:05 PM PDT

bah

Stuff to add.

Emphasis needs to be made on being nice to others. Disagreements can occur, but don't resort to insulting the other person, their opinions, or their ideas. Instead, try to offer criticism that has backing behind it. For instance, JoeBlow brings up trains in Halo 2. He wants to drive trains around. We all know this would suck, but simply saying so makes Joe angry, and he will hate you for all of time. Instead, tell Joe that trains are a bad idea since they are restricted to a track. Now, Joe realizes how stupid his ides was and drops it. You have now changed someone's opinion to your own.

Before you post anything about Halo, know it's probably been brought up before, twice, last week alone. There are over half a million posts on the new Bungie.net, and that's just in the last 4.5 months. Every place, every technique, and everything anyone says has been seen, perfected, and heard respectively. If something absolutely grand happens, that is just downright awesome, share it. We'll all have a few laughs at the funny situation Short of Halo freezing on you, it's all happened. (I really don't believe Halo has ever frozen on anybody ever, unless their copy was busted).

Spelling and grammar need a major emphasis. For a while, it was just fine, but it got bad recently as I saw Spelling Wiz perusing around a bit. No one expects you to have perfect spelling an grammar, but posts need to be at least legible. This means capitalize and punctualize. Without these two things, people really can't tell where your sentences are. If they can't read it, they're more opt to assume you're stupid. The obvious exception here is for people from non-English speaking countries. These people need to just try their hardest and let us use our brains to determine what you're saying.

The Flood
This is not a general discussion forum. This is not a spamming forum. It is a forum for off-topic stuff. Off-topic does not mean what's your favorite food, color, or type of music. Off-topic means what's your favorite food to eat while playing Halo, favorite color to use in multiplayer, your favorite non-Marty music. Make your topics at least a bit about something related to Bungie. The forum's original intention was for non-relevant posts that didn't belong, like MC vs. someone. 70% of the posts there now are completely unrelated to Bungie or their games, so why talk about them at a Bungie site? There are general issue forums elsewhere on the web to talk about your English teacher's new haircut. The way most people talk, you'd never know if they've ever played a Bungie game in their life.

  • 08.26.2004 1:35 AM PDT
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Posted by: The Rip Saw
Stuff to add.

Emphasis needs to be made on being nice to others. Disagreements can occur, but don't resort to insulting the other person, their opinions, or their ideas. Instead, try to offer criticism that has backing behind it. For instance, JoeBlow brings up trains in Halo 2. He wants to drive trains around. We all know this would suck, but simply saying so makes Joe angry, and he will hate you for all of time. Instead, tell Joe that trains are a bad idea since they are restricted to a track. Now, Joe realizes how stupid his ides was and drops it. You have now changed someone's opinion to your own.

Before you post anything about Halo, know it's probably been brought up before, twice, last week alone. There are over half a million posts on the new Bungie.net, and that's just in the last 4.5 months. Every place, every technique, and everything anyone says has been seen, perfected, and heard respectively. If something absolutely grand happens, that is just downright awesome, share it. We'll all have a few laughs at the funny situation Short of Halo freezing on you, it's all happened. (I really don't believe Halo has ever frozen on anybody ever, unless their copy was busted).

Spelling and grammar need a major emphasis. For a while, it was just fine, but it got bad recently as I saw Spelling Wiz perusing around a bit. No one expects you to have perfect spelling an grammar, but posts need to be at least legible. This means capitalize and punctualize. Without these two things, people really can't tell where your sentences are. If they can't read it, they're more opt to assume you're stupid. The obvious exception here is for people from non-English speaking countries. These people need to just try their hardest and let us use our brains to determine what you're saying.

The Flood
This is not a general discussion forum. This is not a spamming forum. It is a forum for off-topic stuff. Off-topic does not mean what's your favorite food, color, or type of music. Off-topic means what's your favorite food to eat while playing Halo, favorite color to use in multiplayer, your favorite non-Marty music. Make your topics at least a bit about something related to Bungie. The forum's original intention was for non-relevant posts that didn't belong, like MC vs. someone. 70% of the posts there now are completely unrelated to Bungie or their games, so why talk about them at a Bungie site? There are general issue forums elsewhere on the web to talk about your English teacher's new haircut. The way most people talk, you'd never know if they've ever played a Bungie game in their life.



Yes I wish that was how it was in the forums. Now about the spelling and grammer part. What could we really do stop this madness? I mean we used to say something like "there is a period, shift key, etc." and so on. Should we say the same thing to the people who write bad, I'm sure we'd get flammed for it (that's never stopped me)? I don't Rip, I don't think the Bungie forum(s) will ever be as awesome as they were.

This is going to take a lot of work.

  • 08.26.2004 4:08 AM PDT
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The United States of America-- STILL more rights than North Korea!
--New official U.S. motto.

Cronin's Law----The New Flood Drinking Game

for starters we could put it in the guide. hopefully at least some people will read and take it to heart.

  • 08.26.2004 7:13 AM PDT
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The United States of America-- STILL more rights than North Korea!
--New official U.S. motto.

Cronin's Law----The New Flood Drinking Game


3. Common Sense
For the sake of everyone's sanity, please use common sense. It is one of the hardest
Things to find in others on the Bungie.net forums, and if you decide to exercise it, theBungie
Community will be just a little bit more enjoyable.

-revision-
3. Common Sense
For the sake of everyone's sanity, please use common sense. It is one of the hardest
Things to find in others on the Bungie.net forums, and if you decide to exercise it, theBungie
Community will be just a little bit more enjoyable. This includes using proper grammer/spelling, as well as polite disagreement. flaming is a major problem on the Bungie boards today, and not flaming but ploitely and civilly disagreeing will help prevent you getting flamed in return. on the flip side, if you are being flamed, do not flame back. use logic and disabling reason against that person, or simply alert a moderator. that brings us to the second issue; grammer and spelling. the best post in the world will not do you a bit of good if people cannot understand it. while perfect grammer and spelling is not required, attempts should be made to at least make sure it is understandable.

  • 08.26.2004 7:23 AM PDT
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The United States of America-- STILL more rights than North Korea!
--New official U.S. motto.

Cronin's Law----The New Flood Drinking Game

okay heres a rough revised draft. a lot better methinks, especially the introduction. (not finalized yet. getting around to it. if someone could get me a list of overused topics and overasked questions it would help alot.)

Guided tour of Bungie.net

1. Introduction
Welcome to Bungie.net! This guide is was written by myself and a couple other members of the Bungie community in order to alleviate some of the problems plaguing Bungie.net. while it is geared primarily towards the newer users, I think every one of you out there will benefit from reading it. It contains a very brief overview of the rules, a description of each forum, how to use it, and what kind of people to expect there, and some basic guidelines to both enjoy your stay more as well as make it more enjoyable for others. Also included (not in this draft tho) is a list of overused topics you should avoid, as well as a “forum FAQ” for questions frequently asked on the Bungie boards.
2. Rules
For some reason, many of you seem unwilling to read the code of conduct and terms of use. You really should,
For you and others who "just haven't gotten around to it yet" here are some basic guidelines:
1. Do not flame
2. Do not make useless and repetitive threads (collectively referred to as "spam")
3. The word n00b, noob, newb, and any other variant is banned. That means never say it
4. No posting or linking to adult content (sry pervs.)
5. Do not post or link to leaked Halo2 beta screenshots/anything else illegal
6. Don't feed the trolls (more on that later)
7. Political discussion= big no-no

3. Common Sense
For the sake of everyone's sanity, please use common sense. It is one of the hardest
Things to find in others on the Bungie.net forums, and if you decide to exercise it, theBungie
Community will be just a little bit more enjoyable. This includes using proper grammer/spelling, as well as polite disagreement. Flaming is a major problem on the Bungie boards today, and not flaming but politely and civilly disagreeing will help prevent you getting flamed in return. On the flip side, if you are being flamed, do not flame back. Use logic and disabling reason against that person, or simply alert a moderator. That brings us to the second issue; grammar and spelling. The best post in the world will not do you a bit of good if people cannot understand it. While perfect grammar and spelling is not required, attempts should be made to at least make sure it is understandable.


4. Posting
There are many different forums to choose from... where do you put your post?
The following is a list of forums*, what the purpose of each is, and what kind of people to
Expect there.

The Underground:
The Bungie general forums. This is where you would come to discuss marathon and other
Oldschool stuff, as well as general things such as the weekly updates and news stories.
Attention! Topics Pertaining To Halo And Halo2 Do Not Belong Here!
It has to be one of the more irritating things for moderators and the average guy alike; misplaced threads.
The underground is a forum for general discussion, not halo or halo2 discussion.
Who can you expect to meet there? The Underground is, by far, the most varied in user types. There are
New people, old people, smart people, dumb people. (Usually posting about halo2 or halo... don't be like them)
There are usually threads about recent goings-on around the Bungie community, and is usually friendly enough. This is a good place to start out if you are new

The Septagon:
The Bungie community forums. This is where you would come to discuss possible changes to bungie.net and the 7th column. Any game-related topics do not belong here and will be locked by a moderator. This is calm, sane
Environment populated mostly by oldschoolers and mature newcomers. There are a lot of topics here that have substantial discussion, unlike most of the rest of the Bungie boards. This is a good place to get oriented before moving out into the rest
Of the Bungie.net world, as most of the people here are accepting of new people and willing to help you out (why else would we write this guide?), just as long as you stay sane and don't make a jackass out of yourself.

New Mombassa:
The dedicated Halo2 forum. All topics having to do with Halo2 go here. Use at your own risk. New Mombassa is for the large part a Spam arena, home to many people who love to flame and just generally be stupid. It is not recommended as a starting point for new people, as every time you read a thread there your I.Q. drops ten points. New Mombassa is home to many repeat posts every day as well, If you decide to post there please look down and see if there are any topics of interest before you make a
New one. It will make the few sane people there very happy.

The Maw:
The dedicated HaloPC forum. All posts concerning HaloPC go here.
This forum is good if you're having technical problems with HaloPC, also a good place
to discuss various custom maps for haloCE (Custom Edition). There are few topics dealing
With actual plot and gameplay, if you want to talk about that you'll be better off in the library.
The people there a relatively varied; some are nice, some are not. But you would do well to
Remember that it is a PC dedicated forum, so if you are fonder of Xbox, the library is recommended

The Library:
This is the dedicated forum for Halo on the Xbox. Come here to discuss basically
Anything about Halo. The people are much the same as in the Maw with a mix between
Good and bad. If you are new it is recommended that you spend a few days in either
The Underground or The Septagon before posting here.

*only the main forums are listed and described.

Care should be taken in all forums not to re-post
A topic that most people feel is already done to death.
Remember, please read topic titles back a page or so before making your first post!

5. Don’t Feed the Trolls
While most spam is accidental or unknowingly committed by newer people
Or people who have been gone awhile, some people do it maliciously (these people collectively called trolls). Remember that since the troll is calling out for attention, replying will be a victory for him. So how do you deal with trolls? Several ways. You can message a Moderator (Moderators are the users Shishka, Makaveli4life, Reginko, Yoozel, Sigma, and Goweb) to have their troll thread locked. this is by far the best approach, but not always possible (mods may all be offline, etc.). In the meantime never ever ever reply to a troll. If you feed a hungry troll, he will grow and spam more. So replying=no. If you see someone repeatedly spamming/flaming you might want to tell a mod about it. Chances are they already know and are taking the necessary steps to deal with him, but he may have escaped their notice, and would doubtless appreciate your help.
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I hope this guide was informative, if you have any questions you can PM me and ask.

  • 08.26.2004 10:01 AM PDT

bah

Well mods, do we go through with something like this, or just sit on our butts?

  • 08.27.2004 10:58 PM PDT

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