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  • Subject: Reach Canon
Subject: Reach Canon

Why is Reach's canon so off. Its like we read all of Ghosts of Onyx for nothing because I didtinctly remember 300 out of 300 Alpha company Spartan IIIs dying, don't you? And then what about all of the Beta company Spartans? Aren't they all dead? Or is Ghosts of Onyx no-canon? Or is Reach non-canon? somebody clear this up, please.

  • 03.14.2011 4:20 PM PDT

*Sigh* It is explained (Here on the site, a letter between Kurt and Mendez) That after training the Spartan III's who had the Spartan II genetic requirements, and were the best, were pulled from the company and assigned to teams like Noble, or placed with headhunters. They were equipped like Spartan II's and placed on missions they would excel at.

The rest of the company received missions from Ackerson, which lead to the Suicide missions.

  • 03.14.2011 4:22 PM PDT
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I just play for fun. MLG can kiss my ass.

Actually, the IIIs that fit Halsey's specifications were pulled out of the companies and given better equipment so they could fight more effectively against the Covenant. Reach right now is being debated for canonicalness. I personally think that Halo:Reach should be considered an alternate reality version if it is decided to be non-canon.

  • 03.14.2011 4:23 PM PDT

Caaaarrrl and DaeFaron seem to have the situation in hand here :)
But yeah, what they said is how it is, the best IIIs and the ones who most fit the genetic requirements for the SIIs were pulled from their companies before the suicide ops and sent on missions more like those of their Spartan II predecessors.

  • 03.14.2011 7:01 PM PDT


Posted by: Caaaarrrl
Actually, the IIIs that fit Halsey's specifications were pulled out of the companies and given better equipment so they could fight more effectively against the Covenant. Reach right now is being debated for canonicalness. I personally think that Halo:Reach should be considered an alternate reality version if it is decided to be non-canon.
What do you mean by "Halsey's Specifications"? Even during the events of Halo: Reach, she still didn't know about the Spartan III Project.

  • 03.14.2011 7:04 PM PDT

Don't worry, you're still your mom's favorite Bnet member.

Posted by: Plasma3150
Posted by: Caaaarrrl
Actually, the IIIs that fit Halsey's specifications were pulled out of the companies and given better equipment so they could fight more effectively against the Covenant. Reach right now is being debated for canonicalness. I personally think that Halo:Reach should be considered an alternate reality version if it is decided to be non-canon.
What do you mean by "Halsey's Specifications"? Even during the events of Halo: Reach, she still didn't know about the Spartan III Project.
As stated in the journal, Halsey says the Spartans of Noble "Aren't hers". I think she also says they might be Class II of the Spartan-IIs.

  • 03.14.2011 7:18 PM PDT
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I just play for fun. MLG can kiss my ass.


Posted by: Plasma3150

Posted by: Caaaarrrl
Actually, the IIIs that fit Halsey's specifications were pulled out of the companies and given better equipment so they could fight more effectively against the Covenant. Reach right now is being debated for canonicalness. I personally think that Halo:Reach should be considered an alternate reality version if it is decided to be non-canon.
What do you mean by "Halsey's Specifications"? Even during the events of Halo: Reach, she still didn't know about the Spartan III Project.


Genetic requirements are part of the S-II program. IIIs like Noble Team meet those requirements.

  • 03.14.2011 7:28 PM PDT


Posted by: Caaaarrrl

Posted by: Plasma3150

Posted by: Caaaarrrl
Actually, the IIIs that fit Halsey's specifications were pulled out of the companies and given better equipment so they could fight more effectively against the Covenant. Reach right now is being debated for canonicalness. I personally think that Halo:Reach should be considered an alternate reality version if it is decided to be non-canon.
What do you mean by "Halsey's Specifications"? Even during the events of Halo: Reach, she still didn't know about the Spartan III Project.


Genetic requirements are part of the S-II program. IIIs like Noble Team meet those requirements.
She didn't even know that Noble Team (Aside from Jorge) even existed. You're making it sound like she was a part of the Spartan III program.

  • 03.14.2011 7:29 PM PDT
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I just play for fun. MLG can kiss my ass.


Posted by: Plasma3150

Posted by: Caaaarrrl

Posted by: Plasma3150

Posted by: Caaaarrrl
Actually, the IIIs that fit Halsey's specifications were pulled out of the companies and given better equipment so they could fight more effectively against the Covenant. Reach right now is being debated for canonicalness. I personally think that Halo:Reach should be considered an alternate reality version if it is decided to be non-canon.
What do you mean by "Halsey's Specifications"? Even during the events of Halo: Reach, she still didn't know about the Spartan III Project.


Genetic requirements are part of the S-II program. IIIs like Noble Team meet those requirements.
She didn't even know that Noble Team (Aside from Jorge) even existed. You're making it sound like she was a part of the Spartan III program.


Sorry about that. When she met Noble, she found out about Spartans that weren't hers. She had no knowledge that they were a different Program until the events at Castle Base happened.

  • 03.14.2011 7:36 PM PDT


Posted by: Plasma3150

Posted by: Caaaarrrl

Posted by: Plasma3150

Posted by: Caaaarrrl
Actually, the IIIs that fit Halsey's specifications were pulled out of the companies and given better equipment so they could fight more effectively against the Covenant. Reach right now is being debated for canonicalness. I personally think that Halo:Reach should be considered an alternate reality version if it is decided to be non-canon.
What do you mean by "Halsey's Specifications"? Even during the events of Halo: Reach, she still didn't know about the Spartan III Project.


Genetic requirements are part of the S-II program. IIIs like Noble Team meet those requirements.
She didn't even know that Noble Team (Aside from Jorge) even existed. You're making it sound like she was a part of the Spartan III program.


No, it doesn't sound like he's saying that at all. He's saying those IIIs who matched the genetic qualifications of the IIs or were pretty damn close, were pulled from their companies. Halsey doesn't know about the IIIs, but she would have documented her research and data, and remember Ackerson had put his grubby fingers all over her Spartan files in order to get started on the IIIs, as the heads of the SIII training Kurt and Mendez would have access to the stolen data as well.

  • 03.14.2011 7:38 PM PDT
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Be nice to noobs..Remember even MLG players were noobs at one point.

Dr. Halsey had absolutely no idea about the Spartan III project. I personally believe that if Halsey were to receive a file containing all of the specifics on the project she would be appalled. Halsey always showed compassion and sorrow for her Spartans and Ackerson was just looking for cheap expendable versions of the Spartan II's


Off Topic: I don't personally like to consider Halo:Reach cannon, but rather just a game. I refuse to update to the reprinted books to conform to the new cannon. I have personally always taken the books>Games regardless of the story universe.

  • 03.14.2011 7:43 PM PDT
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UWG

My jokes, so I don't lose them (ignore this):
ZedFish's Opinion on Sgt. Foley.
ZedFish's Forerunner Rickroll.

*opens can of worms*

-siiiiigh-

  • 03.14.2011 8:01 PM PDT

http://www.halo-forum.com

The argument that both Alpha and Beta Company were completely wiped out on their respective missions is flat out wrong. It is true to an extent i.e. all of the Spartan IIIs that were sent on their company's respective suicide OPs died (excluding Tom and Lucy). However, there are explanations for each of the members of Noble still being alive after their company's destruction:

Kat (Beta Company)

According to Kurt's Transmission, Kat was not deployed on TORPEDO, due to her being injured during the previous operation, CARTWHEEL. Kurt used her medical recovery time to keep her out of her company' destruction.

Noble 6 (Beta Compnay)

"Nine hadn't made it." Ghosts of Onyx, page 14.

Based off this we know that nine Spartans were not present during TORPEDO that Tom was led to believe were deployed. However, his/her Performance Report explains how he/she was affiliated with ONI as an assassin. ONI have a habit of "commandeering" Spartans. It is likely that Noble 6 is one of the nine who "died" on entry.

Carter, Emile, Jun (Alpha Company)

It is now obvious that Kurt withheld numerous Spartan IIIs from their company's final missions. Evidence of this is his transmission regarding Beta Company, but more importantly the existence of the Headhunters. Even if all other eight Beta company "deaths", not including N6, were put into the Headhunter program, this is not enough to make up the numbers. At the program's height there were 6 two-man teams, 12 Spartans, with 17 others rotating into positions when one or more of a team was killed. That is 29 Spartan IIIs needed, and clearly they can't all be Beta Spartans because the numbers don't add up. It is also obvious that Gamma Company cannot be included based on deployment time and age. This means that the others would have to be from from Alpha, and there we have clear evidence that Spartans were witheld from PROMETHEUS, which leaves room to say that Carter, Emile and Jun were also saved.

Ghost of Onyx is 100% canon, but the perspective from which the book is written leaves room to allow for the survival of more Spartan IIIs than the novel actually implies. Basically, GoO is right to say that all the Spartan IIIs of Alpha and Beta died But obviously, in actual fact, that is not the case, as I have explained above. Reach, and by extension Evolutions, does not break canon by including the survival of Sparta IIIs from Alpha and Beta Companies.

  • 03.14.2011 8:36 PM PDT
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ZedFish's Opinion on Sgt. Foley.
ZedFish's Forerunner Rickroll.

Posted by: switch 104 sv
Cookies and rainbows to you, sir.

  • 03.14.2011 8:41 PM PDT

http://www.halo-forum.com

Posted by: ZedFish
Posted by: switch 104 sv
Cookies and rainbows to you, sir.

*Nom nom nom*

"Aw, isn't that lovely"

Eh, Thanks I guess.

  • 03.14.2011 8:45 PM PDT


Posted by: switch 104 sv
The argument that both Alpha and Beta Company were completely wiped out on their respective missions is flat out wrong. It is true to an extent i.e. all of the Spartan IIIs that were sent on their company's respective suicide OPs died (excluding Tom and Lucy). However, there are explanations for each of the members of Noble still being alive after their company's destruction:

Kat (Beta Company)

According to Kurt's Transmission, Kat was not deployed on TORPEDO, due to her being injured during the previous operation, CARTWHEEL. Kurt used her medical recovery time to keep her out of her company' destruction.

Noble 6 (Beta Compnay)

"Nine hadn't made it." Ghosts of Onyx, page 14.

Based off this we know that nine Spartans were not present during TORPEDO that Tom was led to believe were deployed. However, his/her Performance Report explains how he/she was affiliated with ONI as an assassin. ONI have a habit of "commandeering" Spartans. It is likely that Noble 6 is one of the nine who "died" on entry.

Carter, Emile, Jun (Alpha Company)

It is now obvious that Kurt withheld numerous Spartan IIIs from their company's final missions. Evidence of this is his transmission regarding Beta Company, but more importantly the existence of the Headhunters. Even if all other eight Beta company "deaths", not including N6, were put into the Headhunter program, this is not enough to make up the numbers. At the program's height there were 6 two-man teams, 12 Spartans, with 17 others rotating into positions when one or more of a team was killed. That is 29 Spartan IIIs needed, and clearly they can't all be Beta Spartans because the numbers don't add up. It is also obvious that Gamma Company cannot be included based on deployment time and age. This means that the others would have to be from from Alpha, and there we have clear evidence that Spartans were witheld from PROMETHEUS, which leaves room to say that Carter, Emile and Jun were also saved.

Ghost of Onyx is 100% canon, but the perspective from which the book is written leaves room to allow for the survival of more Spartan IIIs than the novel actually implies. Basically, GoO is right to say that all the Spartan IIIs of Alpha and Beta died But obviously, in actual fact, that is not the case, as I have explained above. Reach, and by extension Evolutions, does not break canon by including the survival of Sparta IIIs from Alpha and Beta Companies.


yes, agree with you one hundred percent, Ghosts of Onyx gave us a a minimum of details that are now being expanded on, and what we previous knew can either be attributed to the characters not knowing the actual truth, such as with Beta, or simply learning new facts, like that Kurt and Mendez pulled some IIIs out to form Headhunter teams and larger teams like Noble.

  • 03.14.2011 8:46 PM PDT

Wow!
Where were you guys just after Reach's release when during the long flame wars triggered by anyone who tried to justify Noble's existence?
You guys are great!

  • 03.14.2011 10:53 PM PDT
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My jokes, so I don't lose them (ignore this):
ZedFish's Opinion on Sgt. Foley.
ZedFish's Forerunner Rickroll.

Posted by: Jak O Bladez
Wow!
Where were you guys just after Reach's release when during the long flame wars triggered by anyone who tried to justify Noble's existence?
You guys are great!
I was defending it on the Reach Forum until December 2010.

  • 03.15.2011 1:14 AM PDT
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I understand nothing because my life is a conspiracy.

No, they didn't say that all of the Spartans were deployed. Some, before the attack, were taken and put into special missions and stuff. Those include Carter, Jun, etc. The same was done for Beta Company. Another explanation is that Kurt-051 had more made secretly under that guy's command (forgot his name) who were deployed. Dr. Halsey could have known about this because with Noble Team and maybe other groups going around the human colonies, ONI though they could cross paths with Halsey (or any other important person) and released that ONI had tried duplicating some of Halsey's Spartans because they thought they had a more efficient way and could have Classified them as Spartan-II[B], Spartan-II.V, or just even Spartan-III. they also chose Carter as the perfect leader because he would never spill the beans about the S-III program to Halsey since he was very . . . protocol, if I may say. And the weapons? They were probably produced on Reach, and with Reach being destroyed, it took a while to reproduce some of those weapons (Spartan Laser and stuff) and some were just exclusive to the UNSC Army (DMR and maybe GL). The PoA either landed during or after MC's operation in Gamma Station or after, since the Spartan at the side of the room was claimed to be purely an easter egg and non-canon, like Buck's Monkey (which was really funny!). I think that is all that needs patching up. Oh, and the Falcon was only for the Army and Skirmishers, Revenants, Concussion Rifles, Needle Rifles, etc. were exclusive to some fleets that visited Reach, but not the ring world or Earth. Maybe they did, but non of the ODST's or MC encountered them.

Hope that helps; sorry for the long read.

  • 03.15.2011 3:31 AM PDT


Posted by: Jak O Bladez
Wow!
Where were you guys just after Reach's release when during the long flame wars triggered by anyone who tried to justify Noble's existence?
You guys are great!


I've been on here arguing for Reach pretty much since the beginning, though I'm much more active now than I originally was.

  • 03.15.2011 8:40 AM PDT


Posted by: lime013
No, they didn't say that all of the Spartans were deployed. Some, before the attack, were taken and put into special missions and stuff. Those include Carter, Jun, etc. The same was done for Beta Company. Another explanation is that Kurt-051 had more made secretly under that guy's command (forgot his name) who were deployed. Dr. Halsey could have known about this because with Noble Team and maybe other groups going around the human colonies, ONI though they could cross paths with Halsey (or any other important person) and released that ONI had tried duplicating some of Halsey's Spartans because they thought they had a more efficient way and could have Classified them as Spartan-II[B], Spartan-II.V, or just even Spartan-III. they also chose Carter as the perfect leader because he would never spill the beans about the S-III program to Halsey since he was very . . . protocol, if I may say. And the weapons? They were probably produced on Reach, and with Reach being destroyed, it took a while to reproduce some of those weapons (Spartan Laser and stuff) and some were just exclusive to the UNSC Army (DMR and maybe GL). The PoA either landed during or after MC's operation in Gamma Station or after, since the Spartan at the side of the room was claimed to be purely an easter egg and non-canon, like Buck's Monkey (which was really funny!). I think that is all that needs patching up. Oh, and the Falcon was only for the Army and Skirmishers, Revenants, Concussion Rifles, Needle Rifles, etc. were exclusive to some fleets that visited Reach, but not the ring world or Earth. Maybe they did, but non of the ODST's or MC encountered them.

Hope that helps; sorry for the long read.


The PoA probably landed after it picked Chief and his team up from the station, it's the time period that makes the most sense. And if the Spartan in cryo has any meaning at all, which it really doesn't seeing as it's an easter egg, it'd probably be Linda.

About the Skirmishers, I think Bungie said that most of the Skirmisher military strength was wiped out at Reach, I mean they're still around, but I don't think they have much left in the way of fighters.

  • 03.15.2011 8:43 AM PDT

http://www.halo-forum.com

Posted by: Jak O Bladez
Wow!
Where were you guys just after Reach's release when during the long flame wars triggered by anyone who tried to justify Noble's existence?
You guys are great!

I was there but gave up. Actual information gets lost in a sea of nonsense in the Reach forum so I gave up trying to educate people.

Many aspects of Reach broke or changed canon but this is not one of them.

  • 03.15.2011 10:37 AM PDT


Posted by: switch 104 sv
Posted by: Jak O Bladez
Wow!
Where were you guys just after Reach's release when during the long flame wars triggered by anyone who tried to justify Noble's existence?
You guys are great!

I was there but gave up. Actual information gets lost in a sea of nonsense in the Reach forum so I gave up trying to educate people.

Many aspects of Reach broke or changed canon but this is not one of them.


The Reach forum is pretty much where intelligence goes to die XD I've given up on arguing with anyone in there. I think the Reach forums are almost beyond hope of saving.

  • 03.15.2011 4:42 PM PDT
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I just play for fun. MLG can kiss my ass.


Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: switch 104 sv
Posted by: Jak O Bladez
Wow!
Where were you guys just after Reach's release when during the long flame wars triggered by anyone who tried to justify Noble's existence?
You guys are great!

I was there but gave up. Actual information gets lost in a sea of nonsense in the Reach forum so I gave up trying to educate people.

Many aspects of Reach broke or changed canon but this is not one of them.


The Reach forum is pretty much where intelligence goes to die XD I've given up on arguing with anyone in there. I think the Reach forums are almost beyond hope of saving.


Then thank God I've never been in them.

  • 03.15.2011 5:24 PM PDT