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  • Subject: Brutes, what do you guys think of them?
Subject: Brutes, what do you guys think of them?
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The Brutes are no different in Halo 2 to Halo 3/ODST.

Only difference is the fact they have cloths. The design remained totally the same, aside from a touch of hair here, and a goatee there.

Halo 2 Brutes

Halo 3 Brutes

Take a good look. Where the Halo 2 Brutes have hair, the Halo 3 Brutes have cloths. Where there is skin on Halo 2 Brutes, there is skin on Halo 3 Brutes.

They are identical, they are exactly as hairy looking...just with a bit of cloths. That's it.

Everytime someone gives a theory about Tartarus's clan having no armor, I shake my head.

There are two things wrong with this:

(1). Tartarus was the Chieftain of the Brutes. If he wasn't, I would buy the whole telling his clan clan how to look thing, but he was the leader of ALL the brutes, and If he wanted to, he could have ordered EVERY Brute to use no armor. But he didn't...as clearly seen by Halo Wars Brutes. Halo Wars is in 2531, 6 years after Tartarus became the Chieftain of the Brutes. See my second point to further this idea.

Brute Army Commander

Another Brute

(2) If Tartarus was so against the use of power armor...why did he need an invulnerability shield in his hammer? Why didn't he just use power armor AND his hammer powers.

This clan theory stuff about not wearing armor, or shaving hair, is nonsense, and it can be easily debunked.

The only reason the design changes from game to game is because Bungie sucks and they have terrible memory. They don't know how to reuse assets, and save on manpower and development time.

[Edited on 03.26.2011 1:11 AM PDT]

  • 03.26.2011 1:09 AM PDT

Posted by: Naked Crook
The Brutes are no different in Halo 2 to Halo 3/ODST.

Only difference is the fact they have cloths. The design remained totally the same, aside from a touch of hair here, and a goatee there.

Halo 2 Brutes

Halo 3 Brutes

Take a good look. Where the Halo 2 Brutes have hair, the Halo 3 Brutes have cloths. Where there is skin on Halo 2 Brutes, there is skin on Halo 3 Brutes.

They are identical, they are exactly as hairy looking...just with a bit of cloths. That's it.

Everytime someone gives a theory about Tartarus's clan having no armor, I shake my head.

There are two things wrong with this:

(1). Tartarus was the Chieftain of the Brutes. If he wasn't, I would buy the whole telling his clan clan how to look thing, but he was the leader of ALL the brutes, and If he wanted to, he could have ordered EVERY Brute to use no armor. But he didn't...as clearly seen by Halo Wars Brutes. Halo Wars is in 2531, 6 years after Tartarus became the Chieftain of the Brutes. See my second point to further this idea.

Brute Army Commander

Another Brute

(2) If Tartarus was so against the use of power armor...why did he need an invulnerability shield in his hammer? Why didn't he just use power armor AND his hammer powers.

This clan theory stuff about not wearing armor, or shaving hair, is nonsense, and it can be easily debunked.

The only reason the design changes from game to game is because Bungie sucks and they have terrible memory. They don't know how to reuse assets, and save on manpower and development time.


Three places, Forearms, Feet and Neck, I watched a random video on Youtube and yes, there is no hair on the back of their heads like it was shown in Halo 2.

Halo Wars is flat out wrong with Canon, we all know it, in Halo Wars, the Spartan Team Omega have shields for Mark IV armor when in fact they weren't made for the Mark V armor for another 20 years. In Halo Wars they have Spartan Lasers, don't even get me started with the Covenant Vehicles.

It might be considered Canon with all the elements, although I want to know where it was said that Halo Wars is canon, it just simply ruined the storyline, just like Reach, but it's just a straight up mix up, let's hope 343 can fix that.

To answer your two, who would turn down shielding from the legendary fist of Rukt? Your the Chieftain of the Brutes and you would rather fight with no protection when you have a Gravity hammer that could generate shielding for you? Now the Armor is pretty self explanatory as he felt dishonored at what happened in Harvest. Although he most likely allowed the issue of minimal armor such as those in the pictures of Halo 2.

I'm not going to bother replying to your response unless you have the link on the Halo Wars canon thing, I've had it with Brutes.

[Edited on 03.26.2011 1:41 AM PDT]

  • 03.26.2011 1:38 AM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?

Halowars didn't screw anything up canon wise, if anything it is one of my favortie games due to few canon mishaps.
I think you forgot (or didn't know) that it is an RTS game so certain game elements have to be in place (shields).


Please know the differance between canon and gameplay devices, because that is why them books have more weight than the games since thier are no gameplay flukes.

  • 03.26.2011 6:02 AM PDT

Posted by: Naked Crook
No, this is the mark of BAD story telling. They are using the cheapest and lowest plot devices to make us dislike them. The Brutes fight amongst each other, they eat people, they roar and howl. They are not dinosaurs and this is not Jurassic park. This is a sentient species. Sentience implies intelligence, consciousness, and adaptability. They were written, as if they lacked these qualities, and thus, written as little more than wild, non-sentient, animals who act on instinct.

Now you are going to say "that is exactly what they are, wild animals". You, and everyone after you, is going to say this because that is how the lazy writers made them look.

I say the writers are stupid, and lazy, and retarded because (A) they cannot stay consistent, and (B) they use cheap plot devices to classify an ENTIRE civilization and thus (C) show what total retards and morons, not to mention totally unimaginative, they, being the writers, are.

How many wolves have split the atom? How many gorillas have built space faring ships? How many lions have have engineering capabilities to build their own vehicles? The writers fooled EVERYONE into thinking they were animals, in spite of their scientific accomplishments, which were also written by the writers. So on one hand, the writers say they have accomplished great scientific feats, but on the other hand, they are not sentient, but rather stupid, arrogant, thick-headed, and nothing more than wild animals who just kill each other with little regard for consequences and never evaluating their actions. These two ideas do not connect and they are opposing ideas that cannot co-exist on the same species given what is required for each end of the spectrum.

There is a DAMN GOOD REASON why I say these books suck! The writers suck. Oh God...God have mercy, nothing sucks more than these Halo novel writers! Everything sucks as far as these books are concerned. There are so many contradictions in the character writing, so many conflicting ideas, no motives, no sensibility, irregardless of the fact the Brutes, or a certain number of them at least, have demonstrated, in their history, intelligence equal to that of Albert Einstein. As far as these Halo novel writers go, they make George Lucas look like Edgar Allen Poe or F. Scott Fitzgerald.


If you think showing and telling your reader about why a race/someone is a good guy/bad guy is the mark of bad story telling then you are completely insane.

Humans fight amongst each other all the time, yet we are fully capable of intelligent thought. Rivalries between different clans/kingdoms/tribes leading to tensions and war between them is nothing new, I don't see why you think having a race that consistently fights itself is dumb story telling, it makes for a plenty interesting story.

A limited understanding of technology, or even great understanding of technology, does not mean that one will act civilized and not be a total barbarian. The Brutes are technology smart, but they act like complete animals, the two are not mutually exclusive.

That is your opinion, and yours alone, not mention wrong. If the books suck so much I'd like to see you try and do better. Anything is bound to contradict itself at some point, perfection is simply impossible, contrary to what you might think. If hate the books so much, which are just as much a part of Halo's canon as the games, and think anyone who's ever written for the Halo story sucks, then why are you even a fan of Halo at all?

It is possible to make every character like-able. It is possible to like antagonists, despite their methods. Darth Vader is a like-able character, even in the first move. He was written well, and you like the depth of his character. He is not A-typical bad guy...he has style and class. Even the empire were not A-typical. The empire presented itself as the legitimate ruling government fighting terrorists. Both sides, were the heroes of their own story. When there is only one point of view...it's called bad writing.

I like Brutes because I feel bad for them, knowing how little care was put into their design.

Sure, some of the concepts I put forward cannot apply to an entire race, but it shows that I have a better grasp on story writing than the writers do.

Just adapt the ideas to a wider scope, that's it, problem solved. There is no flaw in the argument, just widen the scope of what I said to encompass the entire race.

I hope you never become a writer.


I did not say it was impossible to like villains, I said it was impossible to make every character likable. There's a big difference between what I said and you said. I could name innumerable villains that I like just as much the heroes, however it is not possible for an author or writer to make every character likable, and I explained why.

Do you even know what the term atypical means? Darth Vader and the Empire are very much typical villains, there is barely anything atypical about them. If you think having only one point of view is bad, then you must hate Lord of the Rings, the Harry Potter books, and a great deal of the other modern and older classics.

The Brutes are just as developed as the Grunts, Jackals, and Elites, if you should feel bad for any of the Covenant species for a lack of development then it should be the Prophets, Drones, and Hunters, they're the least developed out of all the Covenant species.

Too bad, I'm already a writer, and I honestly don't give a damn what you think of me.

You should join these morons here you'd fit right in.

So I guess once Brutes lost the ability to regenerate their shields, it didn't make them easier. If Brutes had solid armor, that never broke, and continually regenerating shields, they would have been a lot harder as enemies.

In Halo 1, 2, 3, and Reach...Elites don't lose their power armor and their shields continually regenerate, no matter if you drop their shields once, twice, or a 1000 times.

And you are saying this KEY difference had NO IMPACT on difficulty?

My point is, only Brutes have armor that breaks apart. Why doesn't Elite power armor break apart? Why didn't that aesthetic choice befall the Elites as well? Shield popping could have worked just as well for the Brutes as it did the Elites. I want an answer to this question.

You wont be able to answer this question, because you know you are wrong. I am half expecting anyone who reads this, to never answer this question. There is no valid answer short of:

"This is not aesthetics, this is called broken mechanics"

Brutes are hated, because Bungie made stupid design choices. Every reason the Brutes are hated, is because of the stupid design decisions made by, so called, experts in novelization, or game design.


First of all, the Brutes never had shields to begin with, except for Tartarus. And also, the vast majority of the time the Brutes come in large packs, unlike the Elites, they would be just as broken in Halo 3 as they were in 2 if you had to fight off 5+ enemies at once with recharging shields. There's your answer.

The Elites are given stronger defenses, for gameplay reasons, because they are far fewer and far between, the most Elites I've ever fought at once outside of Firefight is 3. The way Brute armor functions in gameplay is completely different from in canon. From a canon standpoint the Brutes are just as well defended as the Elites.

They left...because a few hats and ships were exchanged. They turned their back because they were no long guards for the Prophets and they lost a few dozen ships. Cry babies if you ask me.

Nothing honorable about that.

"I want my hat back...WHAAAAAAA. I want my ship back...WHAAAAAAAAA". Then the Elites quit their galactic club because they had fewer rights.

Why didn't they try earning their position, instead of thinking it was their divine right to rule? See what I mean...the writers are stupid.

Cry me a river, build a bridge over it, and jump off.
I don't hate Elites, but this is the major reason I like Brutes more. They don't whine and complain like Elites do.

That is beside the point.


No, they left the Covenant once the killing started, god, did you even pay attention to the story in Halo 2? Or were you too butt-hurt because your favorite race were the bad guys? And the Prophets were breaking their agreement, the agreement formed between the Elites and the Prophets was that the Elites, and only the Elites, would serve as the Prophets guards. Let's see you sit there in silence while an agreement you and another party made is broken, you would be just as offended if an agreement you had made was suddenly broken by the other party.

In my original post, I never brought up Elites (short of making a simple comparison on how when someone hates on the Elites, people jump down his/her throat or the breaking of the armor. Not once did I make evaluated comparisons between the two). If you recall, I quoted someone who brought them up and compared the two...in detail. In fact...it was you who made an evaluated comparison.

You brought them up first...

Dumbass...

You must be in a Coma. I know of no explanation as to why your brain has such little activity.


You didn't quote anybody making refference to Elites in your first post at all. And you brought up Elites in a far greater fashion than anyone else, and it was you who started the detailed comparisons of Elites and Brutes.

I said the Elites were not brought into it at all save in passing reference, I did not give any detailed comparison, all I stated was that Maccabeus reminded me of the Elites, that is not detailed in the least.

  • 03.26.2011 7:41 AM PDT

Sour0deez is the leader of the t-P-t
And Administrator of The Clan Union Group
this file is not linked to sour0deez due to technical difficulties this file is linked to MUGBEER19 also IMPORTANT here my name is sourodeez on xbox it is sour0deez

brutes are more powerfull with thier own weapons. h3>h2 brutes because in h3 they had a -blam!-load of weapons, in h2 they had red prifles

  • 03.26.2011 7:57 AM PDT


Posted by: Naked Crook
Posted by: RKOSNAKE
Yeah, well I don't think killing members from their own tribes would be a good idea (except they wanted the Chieftain position). But then again, yes they do have a bad reputation both in the games and in the books.

I think they would have made better for better enemies if they had given them more intelligence that they actually do.


I could live with them trying to kill the Chieftain to gain power. If anything, it has a subtle message that the strongest and most cunning Brute should be the leader. If a newcomer can kill the current chieftain, the newcomer is stronger. This works and has it;s own logic to it.

I didn't mind how they were portrayed in the games. They had cohesion and unity in the games. It is the books that bug me.

I would rather have Marty O'Donnell write a profile for the brutes...at least he has seen one. I doubt those Book writers have.

PRINT IS DEAD

I also collect spores, molds, and fungus.


You don't know how the writing of the books works do you? The writers aren't just pulling stuff out of their ass, all the important information for their story comes from the Halo Story Bible. They're given a copy of whatever pages in the HSB contain the relevant information for writing their story. Such as the back story for whatever race is figuring prominently in the story as well as the information important to the plot.

So you're quite wrong, anyone who has written a Halo book has seen part of the Halo Story Bible.

  • 03.26.2011 8:02 AM PDT


Posted by: Naked Crook

Posted by: mojeda101
Naked, put it like this, Brutes simply cannot top Elites. Yes, they have accomplished a lot, but look at what they have done in the war. The Covenant utterly devastated us, this is due to the fact they were all under the command of the Elites, yes, there were the Prophets, but the Elites were those who focused on the war, The 20 million prophets simply stayed in High Charity and watched.

The Elites pushed us all the way back to Earth for 27 years, once the Brutes came in, we no longer faced the powerhouse of the Covenant and simply fought the lesser races. Brutes are no ship masters, read "Contact Harvest" the only ship the Brutes controller was falling apart, when the Elites judged it, they were shocked at it.

Add to the fact that the Brutes struggled to take a planet with less than a thousand human resistance. Elites simply are better than Brutes, and you know it Naked, you can't deny it, yes, Brutes have the upper hand in hand to hand combat, hell one berserk brute can kill 3 Zealots but they are far less powerful in a gunfight, let another a space battle.

Although give the Brutes credit, they did manage to hold Earth for over a month, but the whole space invasion was thanks to the Elites. Think about it Naked, what did the Brutes do that could match what the Elites did? Nothing. They did manage to take Harvest, but it took them a while.

Oh and don't get confused on what I said earlier, Brutes were extremely rare on their deployment, and while the Elites and the lesser races fought, what did the Brutes do in all that time? Be lazy and stay on their lone ship eating a feast threatening a deacon of the Prophets. Brutes are savages, you know it.

Bungie simply didn't portray it that way. I wanted to see Brutes eat people on Exodust, and I wanted them to have hair with at least a bit of armor, but whatever, let 343 fix them.


This has nothing to do with this thread.

You don't get a response to this stupidity. Read my last post, and the post before that, and the post before that, and you will see I am not comparing the races, I am simply responding to the notion of why people hate Brutes so much.

OrderedMoron said I keep bringing up the Elites (when that is not true), when it is in fact, you guys that keep bringing them up.

You get no response for anything that you typed.

Congratulations...you wasted your time.

But I will say this.

Coming from the guy who never spells my name right, and also the guy who said Halo Reach wasn't Canon (and could not cite his source), and the guy who said Brute Force claimed that Doisac had 100 billion Brutes on it (When Brute force is a totally different game that has nothing to do with Halo)...everything you say means jack--blam!-.

You remind me of the Iraqi Misinformation Minister.

(I noted you stopped saying CROOK and you call me Naked now. Is the letter R too much for you to handle?

----

Lets ignore Mojeda101 and get back on topic.


Your first post brought up the Elites at least three separate times and worded in such a way as to start a fight. And then your second post, before anyone had started to argue with you, you again brought up the Elites. Before you came along, almost nothing was said about the Elites, and even then it was only in passing mention.

You keep bringing up the Elites with inflammatory comments, and what can only be viewed as the intention to start a fight.

  • 03.26.2011 8:11 AM PDT
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Posted by: OrderedComa
A limited understanding of technology, or even great understanding of technology, does not mean that one will act civilized and not be a total barbarian. The Brutes are technology smart, but they act like complete animals, the two are not mutually exclusive.


You just proved my point.

First off, I never said that just because you understand technology, that you would be peaceful, or have an evolved sensibility, or be non-violent.

What I said was that the writers refuse to let the Brutes act on their sentient qualities, which they DO posses. I said that sentience suggests intelligence (among others), and intelligent people have the capacity to reason, compromise, deduce, analyze, conceive, and generally make evaluated decision, free from the bonds of instinct.

While they have demonstrated their ability to conceive in the form of scientific accomplishments, the writers think they can take away the other fundamental characteristics, such as reason and evaluated decision making, and call it good.

I am not saying they cannot be violent. I am not saying they cannot have animalistic traits, such as ferocity, or their habit to roar, howl, and become overtly aggressive and savage. What I am saying, is that they SHOULD have been written with more control of these traits, to be able to work together, seamlessly, for a common goal, to see each other as "brothers" as they so frequently call each other, while remaining objective as to who the enemy is and to what the objective is. This is part of sentience, to be self aware of yourself, others, and your own ego. The writers could have made a very dangerous, a very cunning, a very viscous, and very ruthless antagonist to match the Elites in some ways, but remain unique in other ways...but they didn't. I know why they didn't do this. The writers suck TOO MUCH to know how to do this. They didn't think about what they were writing, and how they could write it.

You are of the same mentality of these writers. When you say something "acts like an animal" you immediately suggest there is no room for reason, logic, or evolved sensibility. This, in itself, creates BORING characters. Boring characters suggest BAD WRITING. You are of limited scope, and I shudder to think what your writing ability is like.

Posted by: OrderedComa
If the books suck so much I'd like to see you try and do better. Anything is bound to contradict itself at some point, perfection is simply impossible, contrary to what you might think. If hate the books so much, which are just as much a part of Halo's canon as the games, and think anyone who's ever written for the Halo story sucks, then why are you even a fan of Halo at all?


When books contradict their own lore/story/chronology, that's called bad writing. What is SO HARD to understand about this? You are giving me material and feeding the fire of the "Halo Writers Suck" fire.

Being a fan of Halo means I am a fan of the video games (minus Reach...it sits on the shelf and collects dust). To be honest, I don't even know why I bought the game...I beat it before any of you guys did, that's for sure. The books suck...that's why I don't read them, and not a fan of them. They have terrible writing standards. I wouldn't even steal the books, let alone PAY for them.

By the way, the books are tier 2 canon, meaning they can be overridden by the games, at any time, with any information. Like...if a game said there was no such thing as Onxy, that ONE line could destroy an entire book. They are not "just as much part of the canon". They are like...second class information. Kinda like information from Mojeda101.

As for writing better character development and story...believe me...I COULD. Unfortunately...I doubt I would get a job in their writing departmewnt as my career path has taken me down the Computer Science route, not the hippy liberal douche path of free-lance writing.

Posted by: OrderedComa
I did not say it was impossible to like villains, I said it was impossible to make every character likable.


Posted by: OrderedComa
Too bad, I'm already a writer


You must be s -blam!- writer. It's not impossible...it just takes EFFORT!

...He is not A-typical bad guy...

Yes, I did use that word in error given the context. I should not of used the word "not"...I contradicted myself there. Redundant use of "not" notwithstanding, the empire, as an organization, is very A-Typical. I am not gonna elaborate on this, but they did have motives for what they were doing, and they did have purpose. This is something the brutes are never given in stories exclusively about them, such as that bowel movement called "Stomping on the Heels of a Fuss" or whatever it's called. All they did was eat people, and fight. There might have been one or two personal conflicts, but there was no foundation to the story. The Writers simply do not care about them them.

There is no way the Brutes are "just as developed as the Elites...perhaps the Grunts, but not nearly as much as the Elites.

Posted by: OrderedComa
First of all, the Brutes never had shields to begin with, except for Tartarus. And also, the vast majority of the time the Brutes come in large packs, unlike the Elites, they would be just as broken in Halo 3 as they were in 2 if you had to fight off 5+ enemies at once with recharging shields. There's your answer.

The Elites are given stronger defenses, for gameplay reasons, because they are far fewer and far between, the most Elites I've ever fought at once outside of Firefight is 3. The way Brute armor functions in gameplay is completely different from in canon. From a canon standpoint the Brutes are just as well defended as the Elites.


They had Shields in Halo Wars. Guess what...Halo Wars is a game, and such, Tier 1 Canon...that means it overrides the books.

You say I don't play the games. Play Reach or Halo 2, or even Halo 1. There are DOZENS and DOZENS of parts in the collective games where there is more than 5 Elites at a time. Reach is notorious for this. Combined with the stupid weapons, which either all explode or are all these bright flashing lights that could kill photosensitive people. Dude...there is no excuse. I fight of 5+ enemies, specifically Elites, with recharging shields all the time in Halo 1, 2, and Reach. There is no excuse for the Brute armor breaking off other than...

"THE MECHANICS IN HALO 3 AND ODST ARE BROKEN"

What is wrong with the Halo universe where Chronology and common sense are just ideas that gets in the way of throwing stupid games and even more stupid books together?


You didn't quote anybody making refference to Elites in your first post at all. And you brought up Elites in a far greater fashion than anyone else, and it was you who started the detailed comparisons of Elites and Brutes.

I said the Elites were not brought into it at all save in passing reference, I did not give any detailed comparison, all I stated was that Maccabeus reminded me of the Elites, that is not detailed in the least.


I only made passing references to them as well. I certainly didn't bring them up first.

Posted by: Mojeda101
I choose Reach over 2 because they actually have variety displaying their ranks unlike in Halo 2. Similar to Halo 3 but in Halo 3 they were trying to make them as much as Elites with their armor and such.


Posted by: Plasma3150
Oh, crap, forgot to say that I didn't want the armor to fall of like in Halo 3 and ODST. Afterall, Elites', Jackals', Skirmishers', and Grunts' armor doesn't fall off. And only the weaker part of the Hunter's armor does.


Posted by: OrderedComa
I think that was just an aesthetic design for gameplay, so you could tell how much you had hurt them or something like that. 'Cause the Elite's shields pop when you hurt them enough. And the Brutes in Reach have their helmets pop off, which I don't think would happen so easily in real life. So yeah, I think the armor falling apart in H3 was just a gameplay feature so you could tell how much you'd hurt the Brute.


Posted by: OrderedComa
though I still kinda like Maccabeus, he reminded me of a the Elites a bit.


I was not the first one to mention them...so POINT FOR NAKED CROOK

I also made passing references to them to compare the level of bias and the crappy armor mechanics. Go back, and read from my first post to this one, reading everything in between.

Someone brought up swords, and how Elites were better because they use swords. I would quote it but I am running out of remaining characters.

  • 03.26.2011 11:42 AM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?

@Crook

The reason Games>books doesn't hold up because games are filled with gameplay elements and demands from "fans". That being said if "everybody" wants halo 4 we will get it because we demanded it though that might not have been the original intended canon.

Much like stargate universe, the show is canceled but when we are told what the plans were for the show and what was to happen it will probably be accepted as canon seeing how it was only halted by not being on the show not due to internal reasons.

The books don't have expectations,technological limitations or gameplay elements like the games; that is why we hold them higher than (or on the same leve as) a crappy/well done game.


@ and halowars was an RTS so many elements are for gameplay so stick to the cinimatics and plot when you are talking about it unless you know what is and isn't a gameplay element.

  • 03.26.2011 11:53 AM PDT
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Don't be stupid like I was! Check to see what that Forum Ninja is saying to you!

"I may not like what you say, but I will defend your right to the death to say it!"

"Tolerance is a virtue, and virtue builds character."
-Onyx81

Oh well. Just a theory.

Wow, I just remembered why they were given power armor. It was because they were given the role of protecting the prophets. So they needed better armor. Which is why they were given armor similar to the elites.

Halo 3 was the best representation of the brutes, it's just a shame there was no main character in Halo 3 that was a brute. We should have seen the brutes talking to Truth in the cutscenes.

It's just a whole damn sticky mess with the brutes. It sucks. For Reach they should have done an HD version of the Halo 2 brutes, and have them beserek a crap load.

  • 03.26.2011 12:02 PM PDT

Naked Crook is Delusional he fits the description perfectly
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delusional_disorder

  • 03.26.2011 12:10 PM PDT

I like to play Devil's Advocate


Posted by: benspartan118
Naked Crook is Delusional he fits the description perfectly
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delusional_disorder


What?

  • 03.26.2011 12:15 PM PDT
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Posted by: benspartan118
Naked Crook is Delusional he fits the description perfectly
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delusional_disorder


So how does knowing how to properly structure a good story constitute being delusional?

Hmmm...

I know something that fits you...

This one is for you benspartan118. This one is for you.

  • 03.26.2011 12:19 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: grey101
@Crook

The reason Games>books doesn't hold up because games are filled with gameplay elements and demands from "fans". That being said if "everybody" wants halo 4 we will get it because we demanded it though that might not have been the original intended canon.

Much like stargate universe, the show is canceled but when we are told what the plans were for the show and what was to happen it will probably be accepted as canon seeing how it was only halted by not being on the show not due to internal reasons.

The books don't have expectations,technological limitations or gameplay elements like the games; that is why we hold them higher than (or on the same leve as) a crappy/well done game.


@ and halowars was an RTS so many elements are for gameplay so stick to the cinimatics and plot when you are talking about it unless you know what is and isn't a gameplay element.

  • 03.26.2011 12:40 PM PDT
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Posted by: grey101
Posted by: grey101
@Crook

The reason Games>books doesn't hold up because games are filled with gameplay elements and demands from "fans". That being said if "everybody" wants halo 4 we will get it because we demanded it though that might not have been the original intended canon.

Much like stargate universe, the show is canceled but when we are told what the plans were for the show and what was to happen it will probably be accepted as canon seeing how it was only halted by not being on the show not due to internal reasons.

The books don't have expectations,technological limitations or gameplay elements like the games; that is why we hold them higher than (or on the same leve as) a crappy/well done game.


@ and halowars was an RTS so many elements are for gameplay so stick to the cinimatics and plot when you are talking about it unless you know what is and isn't a gameplay element.


My apologies, I did not see your reply.

I submit the following.

Reference. Scroll up one post

Posted by: App L Sawz
Indeed. In addition Halopedia describes cannon policy as having overruling mediums or "Superior Cannon" (Broken Link). The order is as follows:

- Current Bungie [343] Employees
- Halo Games
- Halo Literature, Soundtracks, and Other Media
- Bungie [343] Affiliates
- *Announcement Trailers
- Halopedia Canon

For a full breakdown on how Halopedia views cannon click here (Broken Link).


I looked into this, and I also found this. This is what the broken links were.

Canon Policy

Games outrank books. Period.

You might say "Well, Bungie Canon outranks 343i Canon. As we all know, Bungie has nothing to do with Halo anymore, so they have been bumped off and 343i now controls everything...plus 343 has ex-Bungie employees.

Halo Wars is part of 343 now (just to point that out)

[Edited on 03.26.2011 1:12 PM PDT]

  • 03.26.2011 12:58 PM PDT


Back to brutes.

Brutes are one of my favorite covenant species and I believe that how thay are portrayed in the books and games is not because bad writing or broken game play it's because thay are supposed to be these animalistic Barbarians, there not called brutes for nothing.

[Edited on 03.26.2011 9:10 PM PDT]

  • 03.26.2011 2:44 PM PDT
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I like the Mk V armor.

Directly after the battle of Reach, Parabum and his ship, Valourus Salvation, along with a rival clan aboard, broke away from the Fleet of Paticular Justice, travelling to Beta Gabriel.

Parabum was a slow, but not dumb brute, excellent in tatics in hunting, and extremely strong, only one out of the thirty six brutes was stronger, Hammadus, but his loyality was securred for the time being.

The two brothers, Ceretus and Maladus, were religous zealots and extremely intelligent, and nearly talked Hammadus into killing Parabum for his cowardcy at Reach and disrespect towards the covenant, Parabum even stated "There are no gods".

Maladus eventually snapped and challenged Parabum, getting his face bit off in the process. Parabum still ruled, and Ceretus planned revenge and once again started sweet talking Hammadus.

Eventually Beta Gabriel layed in ruins, few humans were left so they ate grunts.

So, as you can see, brutes are like angry humans. If they weren't so angry, they'd be the most advanced race easilly, having achieved space flight long ago, before the Covenant, but blew the -blam!- out of each other.

Based on memory from Halo: Evollutions

Sorry for terrible spelling.

Just for fun:

PEW PEW

"Die brute scum!!"-Marines

"Lets get outa here"-Obrien(A guy capturred by the Brutes, an ONI agent)

"-blam!- you Parabum"-A girl brabs a spiker after escaping and blasts Parabum in the face, but is killed by him.

"My religeon must live"-Dasc, a human priest, kills O'brien not wanting his religeon to be exposed.

  • 03.26.2011 5:58 PM PDT
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I like the Mk V armor.


Posted by: benspartan118

Back to brutes.

Brutes are one of my favorite covenant species and I believe that how thay are portrayed in the books and games is not because bad writing or broken game play it's because thay are supposed to be these animalistic barbarians, there not called brutes for nothing.

Barabarians means sheep.

  • 03.26.2011 6:05 PM PDT

I love that story, really shows the brytes in an intresting way. And just something i'd like to point out that brutes seem to only value strenght in fighting and nothing else it would seem.

  • 03.26.2011 6:44 PM PDT

Halo: Heretic or Hero---An Elite's Story
Choose your own destiny

FanFicFactor
Forged in the Flames of Passion, go forth and represent!

I see Brutes as a necessary plot-device to replace the Elites, and a good one (in some cases).

To state very plainly, they are inferior in all combat situations to Elites. While this can partly be accredited to Halo 2, 3 and Reach's poor AI rendition (not that I could do any better, but Brutes are much fiercer in the books).

In Halo 2, they only posed any true threat when A) they had a Brute Shot or B) they were berserking on higher difficulties. Their behavior was linear and predictable, and their reflexes, in comparison to Halo CE's dodge, duck, dip, dive and dodge Elites, did not make benchmark.

In Halo 3, while some argued that Bungie's new Brute model was better, I must say I was even less impressed. I liked the new aesthetics, and I appreciated that their self-created weaponry and vehicles were implemented, but still their combat behavior was awful. They will fire their Spikers from the other side of the level, but in contrast would simply watch the player in awe when he got up close, and whacked him two times. They would either stand still while getting headshotted and submit themselves to massacre, or deploy a Bubbleshield, which, ironically, they would step out of three seconds later.

Reach, they were just out there to soak up bullets and weren't fun to fight against. Not to mention that they looked awful, aside from maybe the Chieftain.

Again, I know Brutes were necessary to the plotline and in some cases fun to fight, but they are in no way shape or form superior to Elites in combat, aesthetics, or anything else for that matter besides stench.

  • 03.27.2011 5:52 AM PDT

Posted by: Naked Crook
First Section


You implied that a species would be peaceful if they were sentient, whether you meant it or not, that's what it seemed to be implying to me.

Rivalries/hatred, are often quite deep seated and are very hard to work past. I mean, just look at the Middle-East, a lot of the people are just as rationale as the next guy, but the Shuni and Shiite factions of Islam still hate each others guts, and the Arab states and Israel still do not get along. The Brutes are all that you said, accept they have not reached a point where their tribes are willing to look past their differences.

When books contradict their own lore/story/chronology, that's called bad writing. What is SO HARD to understand about this? You are giving me material and feeding the fire of the "Halo Writers Suck" fire.

Being a fan of Halo means I am a fan of the video games (minus Reach...it sits on the shelf and collects dust). To be honest, I don't even know why I bought the game...I beat it before any of you guys did, that's for sure. The books suck...that's why I don't read them, and not a fan of them. They have terrible writing standards. I wouldn't even steal the books, let alone PAY for them.

By the way, the books are tier 2 canon, meaning they can be overridden by the games, at any time, with any information. Like...if a game said there was no such thing as Onxy, that ONE line could destroy an entire book. They are not "just as much part of the canon". They are like...second class information. Kinda like information from Mojeda101.

As for writing better character development and story...believe me...I COULD. Unfortunately...I doubt I would get a job in their writing departmewnt as my career path has taken me down the Computer Science route, not the hippy liberal douche path of free-lance writing.


The only "conflicts" I actually see are coming from the people who are not willing to accept such things as retcons. Such as first encounters with Covenant species or the length of the Battle of Reach.

Is supposedly "beating the game before any of you guys did" supposed to impress me or something? If the books sucked so much, then why, pray tell, are most of the books New York Times best sellers? And being a fan of Halo means being a fan of the whole story, not just one aspect of the story, IE games or books.

Not according to what I've read, Bungie views the games and books on the same level, though if there is a contradiction between the game and books the game will take superiority, and new canon outranks old, so if a new book had another Spartan on taking part in the events on Alpha Halo, then guess what, that would mean Chief wouldn't be the only Spartan in CE. So unless there is a contradiction that needs resolving, then the books and games are on completely equal terms.

I'll believe it when I see, I don't doubt that you could write, as writing is really not that hard, however, claiming whatever you could write is better than Bungie or the book writers, that I'll believe when I see it.
Being a writer does not mean one is automatically a douche, hippy, or liberal, if that is what you think...well then.

You must be s -blam!- writer. It's not impossible...it just takes EFFORT!

Yes, I did use that word in error given the context. I should not of used the word "not"...I contradicted myself there. Redundant use of "not" notwithstanding, the empire, as an organization, is very A-Typical. I am not gonna elaborate on this, but they did have motives for what they were doing, and they did have purpose. This is something the brutes are never given in stories exclusively about them, such as that bowel movement called "Stomping on the Heels of a Fuss" or whatever it's called. All they did was eat people, and fight. There might have been one or two personal conflicts, but there was no foundation to the story. The Writers simply do not care about them them.


You can do your darndest, but ultimately it is an impossibility for every character in anything to be likable, simply for the fact that everyone's opinion is different. Like for instance I simply cannot stand most of the Jedi in Star Wars except for in the Orignal Trilogy.

I'm sorry, but the Empire are completely typical, there is nothing atypical about them. If you'd care to convince me otherwise then do so in a message, as I don't want to derail the topic more than it already is.

The Brutes had plenty of motives and character development and "foundation to the story" (as much as a short story can really have) in "Stomping on the Heels of a Fuss", you are simply choosing to ignore it.

They had Shields in Halo Wars. Guess what...Halo Wars is a game, and such, Tier 1 Canon...that means it overrides the books.

You say I don't play the games. Play Reach or Halo 2, or even Halo 1. There are DOZENS and DOZENS of parts in the collective games where there is more than 5 Elites at a time. Reach is notorious for this. Combined with the stupid weapons, which either all explode or are all these bright flashing lights that could kill photosensitive people. Dude...there is no excuse. I fight of 5+ enemies, specifically Elites, with recharging shields all the time in Halo 1, 2, and Reach. There is no excuse for the Brute armor breaking off other than...

"THE MECHANICS IN HALO 3 AND ODST ARE BROKEN"

What is wrong with the Halo universe where Chronology and common sense are just ideas that gets in the way of throwing stupid games and even more stupid books together?


Um no they didn't, Brutes had no shields at all in Halo Wars.

I never said anything of sort about you not playing the games, don't put words in my mouth.

Learn to count, the Elites have never numbered as much as the Brutes have in anything except Firefight. Reach had as much as Brutes in Halo 3 a couple times, but Reach was Bungie's last game, and they included much more of all the different enemy types because the game could support more AIs.

Disliking something does not make it suck or make it broken. I like the Brutes just fine in Halo 2, the kill time for them however, and the ammount of ammo it takes, is completely broken and makes Normal feel like Legendary for the other games.

I only made passing references to them as well. I certainly didn't bring them up first.

I never said you brought them up first, and two of those posts do not count, the first one you use from me is talking about gameplay, not Elites vs. Brutes, and Plasma's is also talking about gameplay and is also not focused on Elites vs Brutes, he mentions Skirmishers, Jackals, Hunters, and Grunts as well.

I hate EVERYTHING about Elites because they say Wort and they have legs that look funny. If I was serious in this claim, I would be ripped apart.

Nobody even questioned this. Why do you hate them? That wasn't even asked ONCE. But if I said I HAAAATE Elites in every way, gameplay wise and dynamics...you people would be jumping down my throat.

See what I mean? This thread was created by people who just have an unadulterated and unfounded hate for Brutes. Why even make this thread if it's just to rag on them?

20 bucks says if I make a thread to rag on Elites...EVERYONE will come to their defense. But not a SINGLE person here even challenges a single unfounded claim made in this thread.

This is why I believe this entire community is utterly, without question, the largest congregation of stupidity on the internet.


Sorry...but this thread, is little more than an Elite Brothel, geared towards to the total service of Elites. Once you guys get those members out of your mouths, and wipe the Elite DNA from your chins and mouth regions...let me know. Let me know when you guys are done with the one-sided nonsense.

Those may be "passing mention" like the rest of the others, but you meant more by them than simple comparison, those quotes are extremely inflammatory and you came in here simply to troll and cause a fight. You are little more than a troll.

  • 03.27.2011 3:04 PM PDT

Posted by: Naked Crook
I looked into this, and I also found this. This is what the broken links were.

Canon Policy

Games outrank books. Period.

You might say "Well, Bungie Canon outranks 343i Canon. As we all know, Bungie has nothing to do with Halo anymore, so they have been bumped off and 343i now controls everything...plus 343 has ex-Bungie employees.

Halo Wars is part of 343 now (just to point that out)


That is how Halopedian treats canon, and only how they view it, that is no way indicative how Bungie/343 treat the issue of canon. Unless the games have information that contradicts information from the books, or the books don't have new information that seemingly contradicts a game, then they are completely equal. In the case of new stuff, the new information trumps the old, like for instance, Cryptum and the Terminals from Halo 3 don't match up exactly, yet Cryptum's story is the real deal because it is the new information.

  • 03.27.2011 3:11 PM PDT
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Deva Path


Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: OrderedComa
Posted by: Naked Crook
I looked into this, and I also found this. This is what the broken links were.

Canon Policy

Games outrank books. Period.

You might say "Well, Bungie Canon outranks 343i Canon. As we all know, Bungie has nothing to do with Halo anymore, so they have been bumped off and 343i now controls everything...plus 343 has ex-Bungie employees.

Halo Wars is part of 343 now (just to point that out)


That is how Halopedian treats canon, and only how they view it, that is no way indicative how Bungie/343 treat the issue of canon. Unless the games have information that contradicts information from the books, or the books don't have new information that seemingly contradicts a game, then they are completely equal. In the case of new stuff, the new information trumps the old, like for instance, Cryptum and the Terminals from Halo 3 don't match up exactly, yet Cryptum's story is the real deal because it is the new information.


Actually they do match up, G167 (Seaward) was a planet that only the really really rich forerunners lived on and knew about. so much that it was documented as desolate.

And while games are a more direct source of canon they will always be limited by what the "fans" want and by gameplay elements. So until those two factors can be completly removed then you cannot say games>books.

Its like saying your pen is better than my pen becuase the president gave it to you

[Edited on 03.27.2011 3:19 PM PDT]

  • 03.27.2011 3:16 PM PDT


Posted by: grey101

Posted by: OrderedComa
Posted by: Naked Crook
I looked into this, and I also found this. This is what the broken links were.

Canon Policy

Games outrank books. Period.

You might say "Well, Bungie Canon outranks 343i Canon. As we all know, Bungie has nothing to do with Halo anymore, so they have been bumped off and 343i now controls everything...plus 343 has ex-Bungie employees.

Halo Wars is part of 343 now (just to point that out)


That is how Halopedian treats canon, and only how they view it, that is no way indicative how Bungie/343 treat the issue of canon. Unless the games have information that contradicts information from the books, or the books don't have new information that seemingly contradicts a game, then they are completely equal. In the case of new stuff, the new information trumps the old, like for instance, Cryptum and the Terminals from Halo 3 don't match up exactly, yet Cryptum's story is the real deal because it is the new information.


Actually they do match up, G167 (Seaward) was a planet that only the really really rich forerunners lived on and knew about. so much that it was documented as desolate.

And while games are a more direct source of canon they will always be limited by what the "fans" want and by gameplay elements. So until those two factors can be completly removed then you cannot say games>books.

Its like saying your pen is better than my pen becuase the president gave it to you


I haven't read Soma the Painter, as it's not in my copy of Evolutions, so I don't really know anything about it. And I think it's mostly the fan interpretations that got contradicted by Cryptum anyway :P

Well the gameplay certainly will be at least, and I don't really hold the games as the golden standard for canon anyway, I view them and the books on equal footing. I was merely giving examples where the games take precedence over the books based on what Bungie has said about how they treat canon. Like for instance The Flood, says that the Covenant ships at Halo were forbidden from firing on the Autumn for fear of damaging Halo, yet in CE you can see a couple Plasma Torpedoes, or whatever they're supposed to be, hitting the Autumn after the crew abandons ship.

  • 03.27.2011 4:01 PM PDT


Posted by: mojeda101
Halo Wars is flat out wrong with Canon, we all know it, in Halo Wars, the Spartan Team Omega have shields for Mark IV armor when in fact they weren't made for the Mark V armor for another 20 years. In Halo Wars they have Spartan Lasers, don't even get me started with the Covenant Vehicles.
Those shields are just for gameplay. We all know that even the trilogy takes liberties for gameplay purposes. Same rule applies to the Spartans, allowing them to have an extra health layer that recharges. They are called Heroes for a reason.

There is no definite time table for the Spartan Laser.

If you were reffering to the vehicle shielding research, again, it is for gameplay. If not, what are you reffering to?

  • 03.27.2011 7:33 PM PDT