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  • Subject: Brutes, what do you guys think of them?
Subject: Brutes, what do you guys think of them?

"Concise and devoid of elegance...what I have come to expect from human communication"-Endless Summer

I like the Covenant only when dead.

  • 03.27.2011 8:15 PM PDT


Posted by: Metroidman42
I like the Covenant only when dead.


Haha good answer XD Though I'm always willing to forgive a Grunt as long as he doesn't start shooting at me again.

  • 03.27.2011 8:19 PM PDT

"Concise and devoid of elegance...what I have come to expect from human communication"-Endless Summer

Brutes are scum, always have been. Elites are okay only because they kicked the brutes asses with us.

  • 03.27.2011 8:28 PM PDT


Posted by: Metroidman42
Brutes are scum, always have been. Elites are okay only because they kicked the brutes asses with us.


I am certainly not a fan of the Brutes, however I don't really hate them, even though only Maccabeus has proved himself to not be a total savage so far. Before Stomping on the Heels of a Fuss I used to think the Brutes somewhat cool, now they're just interesting, even if I hold a low opinion of them.

It might be because I came onto the series late, probably playing Halo 3 the most extensively at friends' houses before I got my own copies of the games also has something to do with it I'm sure, but I've always been a fan of the Elites.

  • 03.27.2011 9:08 PM PDT
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@OrderedComa

I read that really long reply on the previous page.

We can argue this till we are blue in the face...but we have to remember one thing.

"What do we think of the Brutes"

As far as I am concerned, you have based your dislike of the Brutes based on the books, while I have based my like of the Brutes on the games.

Unfortunately...the games are more valid.

While your books can be revised, edited, altered, re-released, re-published, corrected, retconned, and changed...the games will NEVER change. The games will always be here. They will never go away. They will forever be static, unchangeable.

My timeline...goes like this.

Halo Wars > Halo Reach > Halo 1 > Halo 2 > Halo ODST > Halo 3

Your time line is similar to mine, except it is polluted with content that can be changed at any time.

My time line will never change. I can turn these games on tomorrow, next week, next year, next decade...and they will be the same as they were the first time I played them. The story will never change.

Your books, have been retconned and edited too many times to NOT call it revisionist history. They were never thought out, poorly planned, and their existence insults the Halo Universe. This is a testament to the quality of the writers. This is why I have no stock in what the books write.

That would have been because according to the original versions of TFoR the Elites had not been encountered in the war yet, and that particular information is now horribly outdated, retconned, and useless as evidence for anything, imo.

And frankly the books do a horrible job with the Covenant anyway.


Does that quote sound familiar Coma? It should...you said it. The first book, destroyed the Halo Universe before it even started. How can you put so much stock in a line of books that were mistaken on the first step.

SOURCE: http://www.bungie.net/Forums/posts.aspx?postID=58081717&p ostRepeater1-p=2

Oh...but...it's nothing a little bit of revisionist history can't fix. That's right...

You even said the Books did a horrible job with the Covenant. So why do you defend their work on the Covenant in this thread, but degrade it in another? You are losing creditability.

Your dislike of the Brutes depends on a time line that has been constantly revised and, by your own admission, horrible in terms of Covenant development.

My opinion is based on a time line that does not, and will never change. Your opinion is based on information that can be changed at the drop of a hat. The books are comparable to a witness in court who keeps changing their story. Sooner or later, all creditability is lost. The books have lost their creditability.

I doubt you will read and fully understand what I have said. So I will end with this:

I like the Brutes because of the Games, and not the books...because the books are unreliable.

Enjoy those books...enjoy revisionist history.

  • 03.27.2011 9:45 PM PDT

"Concise and devoid of elegance...what I have come to expect from human communication"-Endless Summer

You,sir,are a raving fanboy of epic proportions. Books=games in canon. There are some exceptions(gameplay mech.).

  • 03.27.2011 9:49 PM PDT
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Posted by: Metroidman42
You,sir,are a raving fanboy of epic proportions. Books=games in canon. There are some exceptions(gameplay mech.).


fanboy implies total fanaticism. Clearly...I do not have fanaticism about the entire Halo Universe.

You...would be the fanboy.

  • 03.27.2011 9:59 PM PDT

"Concise and devoid of elegance...what I have come to expect from human communication"-Endless Summer

I am not a raving fanboy who idolizes Covenant dirt bags.

I am merely a person who hates fanboys.

[Edited on 03.27.2011 10:13 PM PDT]

  • 03.27.2011 10:12 PM PDT


Posted by: Metroidman42
You,sir,are a raving fanboy of epic proportions. Books=games in canon. There are some exceptions(gameplay mech.).


I agree with this statement, and I would probably add delusional in their too.

Posted by: Naked Crook
I read that really long reply on the previous page.

We can argue this till we are blue in the face...but we have to remember one thing.

"What do we think of the Brutes"

As far as I am concerned, you have based your dislike of the Brutes based on the books, while I have based my like of the Brutes on the games.

Unfortunately...the games are more valid.

While your books can be revised, edited, altered, re-released, re-published, corrected, retconned, and changed...the games will NEVER change. The games will always be here. They will never go away. They will forever be static, unchangeable.

My timeline...goes like this.

Halo Wars > Halo Reach > Halo 1 > Halo 2 > Halo ODST > Halo 3

Your time line is similar to mine, except it is polluted with content that can be changed at any time.

My time line will never change. I can turn these games on tomorrow, next week, next year, next decade...and they will be the same as they were the first time I played them. The story will never change.

Your books, have been retconned and edited too many times to NOT call it revisionist history. They were never thought out, poorly planned, and their existence insults the Halo Universe. This is a testament to the quality of the writers. This is why I have no stock in what the books write.

That would have been because according to the original versions of TFoR the Elites had not been encountered in the war yet, and that particular information is now horribly outdated, retconned, and useless as evidence for anything, imo.

And frankly the books do a horrible job with the Covenant anyway.


Does that quote sound familiar Coma? It should...you said it. The first book, destroyed the Halo Universe before it even started. How can you put so much stock in a line of books that were mistaken on the first step.

SOURCE: http://www.bungie.net/Forums/posts.aspx?postID=58081717&p ostRepeater1-p=2

Oh...but...it's nothing a little bit of revisionist history can't fix. That's right...

You even said the Books did a horrible job with the Covenant. So why do you defend their work on the Covenant in this thread, but degrade it in another? You are losing creditability.

Your dislike of the Brutes depends on a time line that has been constantly revised and, by your own admission, horrible in terms of Covenant development.

My opinion is based on a time line that does not, and will never change. Your opinion is based on information that can be changed at the drop of a hat. The books are comparable to a witness in court who keeps changing their story. Sooner or later, all creditability is lost. The books have lost their creditability.

I doubt you will read and fully understand what I have said. So I will end with this:

I like the Brutes because of the Games, and not the books...because the books are unreliable.

Enjoy those books...enjoy revisionist history.


Well you would be wrong, I had no particular liking for the Brutes ever since I played Halo 3 and saw and heard what they did or what they intended to do.

Unfortunately, you are completely wrong, the books and the games are on completely total and equal footing, except for the instances I gave examples for, where either source will take precedence depending on the situation regarding the issue.

I did not know you were a prophet. Just because there have been no re-releases of the games does not mean it will never happen, and in fact the games have at least one retcon themselves, Johnson was supposed to have died in Halo: CE, and yet there he is alive and well for Halo 2. And it doesn't even have to be a a re-release of a game to change the story, Bungie or 343 could make a statement that completely changes the plot of any of the games, or they could release a new game that changes and aspect of one of the former games. You are not a prophet, you cannot possibly know with any degree of certainty what the future holds.

Oh I didn't know changing such minor details as when a Covenant species was first encountered was revisionist history, oh wow, you're so smart. NOT
The only thing that has ever changed in the books is the introduction of Covenant species, and even then the changes were made because they make way more sense. If the writers sucked, they wouldn't have been hired in the first place or have any popular books or writing at all, so there goes your paper thin argument up in flames.

Again with the taking my words out of context, I probably was not as clear as I should have been, I will admit that, but everyone in that thread already would have known what I've meant as I've argued with several of them over the issue of how the Covenant's military might was portrayed and I've stated my position on what I think of their MILITARY portrayal enough times that people would know what I meant. So I am not being hypocritical on the issue at all, you are merely missing what I meant, and if you still think I am contradicting myself, then you are quite dense and thickheaded.

Again with the prophet stuff, you don't know with certainty what will happen even within the next ten minutes, there is no way in Hell that you could possibly know what will happen in regards to the games.

And that analogy of yours hardly relates at all, you are stretching yourself thin in your delusions, bucko.
And I fully and completely understand every single word you have said in this post, and I do not agree with any of it in the slightest. In fact, it is just the arrogant nonsense filled with delusions of grandeur that I have come to expect from you.

  • 03.28.2011 9:54 AM PDT


Posted by: Naked Crook

Posted by: Metroidman42
You,sir,are a raving fanboy of epic proportions. Books=games in canon. There are some exceptions(gameplay mech.).


fanboy implies total fanaticism. Clearly...I do not have fanaticism about the entire Halo Universe.

You...would be the fanboy.


No, you're just a raging and delusional Brute fanboy of epic proportions. You are a total fanatic for the Brutes.

  • 03.28.2011 9:56 AM PDT

"I may not be perfect, but always been true."

Now gentlemen, why don't we all stop fighting and calling each other out and unanimously agree that the Grunts are superior to both Brutes and Elites alike, that'd help end this type of threads were everything turns into a flame war.

  • 03.28.2011 11:49 AM PDT


Posted by: RKOSNAKE
Now gentlemen, why don't we all stop fighting and calling each other out and unanimously agree that the Grunts are superior to both Brutes and Elites alike, that'd help end this type of threads were everything turns into a flame war.


Well I don't think the Grunts are best...but, ALL HAIL THE ALMIGHTY GRUNTS!!!!! *bows in adoration and worship* *enters shrine erected to Grunts*

Or how about the Engineers, those guys are pretty cool too, and I must say cute.

  • 03.28.2011 11:55 AM PDT
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@OrderedCOma

I know enough about gaming, and large gaming universes...to know that games that are re-released, do not heavily tamper with the story and written aspect of continuity. In fact, Halo CE and Halo 2 were re-released for PC and the story didn't change. They could have changed things to better fit the unverse, but they didn't. These are prime examples where the story has NOT changed after a re-release, examples exclusive to the Halo Universe as well.

And as far as retconning goes, and your Johnson example, that is not retconning, that is called a cliffhanger. CHanging minor things, like when a gun was first seen, or the technical specs of a weapon...not a big deal. However, when you need to change the story to the point where the integrity of the universe depends on it, that is called bad writing.

Think about this:

-If in the original Halo book "The Fall of Reach", the Elites were not encountered until Reach, who were we fighting for 27 years? Grunts? This was changed because the writers said "whoops, we are stupid"

-Then the Brutes, who were not encountered until the first Battle of Earth, suddenly were retconned to Harvest (the start of the war) in Contact Harvest, and further retconned to Reach (more Reach retconning). Contact Harvest was released in Oct 2007, shortly after Halo 3 (Sept 2007), where the Brutes became the main bad guy. This serves the idea that Brutes were intentionality written bad, with little effort, and weak plot devices, to make the fans hate them for Halo 3 and any following sequels.

These two points I have listed, above all else, make and break the Halo Universe. These are MASSIVE retcons.

There is a whole thread of Retcons...its like over 1600 posts long for Heavens sake.

The point is, why does the universe need to be changed so much?

============

You call me a fanboy...but I do not think you know what that is. See, what I think of the Brutes, and my basis for liking them...has been generally accepted as...(if I was to pick a word) unorthodox.

I have spent enough time on the internet (too much time given my profession) and I have seen fanboys. WHile I do admit that I like the Brutes, a fanboy suggests that I hate everything besides the Brutes. I do not hate Elites, or any Covenant race for that matter. This precludes me from being a fanboy. While I have made passing references, insulting the Elites, it was strictly used a tool to compare the bias and disparity of respect that exists in the community.

You wanna see fanboys?

The same guy who called me a fanboy, started this thread. The OP of that thread called me a fanboy, then proceeded to created a thread, and all of his facts were wrong. He spewed ideas (That our good friend Anton so kindly shot down, with unmitigated fairness) and then followed up saying he was only interested in stating his ideas before the "certain person" (me) could reply.

There are facts I do not deny about the Brutes. Yes, they are aggressive, they are most certainly mean, and they are most certainly not the nicest people going. But, I have stood up for them, in spite of these traits, defending some of their better qualities (which do exist).

Then we have this thread.

Short of one or two people, eeryone was like "I want Thel" or "I want Arbiter" or "I want both Arbiters"...like he was the greatest thing since sliced bread. While I do admit the Arbiter is cool in his own ways, the fact that EVERYONE wants this guy...you can't tell me he is not overly-popular and hyped....by fanboys.

You could possibly throw counter-points my way, suggesting I am a fanboy...but one thing I am not...is a bandwagon hopper. I at least have the courage to defend something that is not so readily popular. If I were a fanboy, my posts would be missing one thing...supporting arguments. Like the Brutes because of how they are portrayed in the games, and not for how they are portrayed in books, because I doubt the competency of the writer. See previous posts for supporting arguments

I like the Halo franchise, but to call me a fanboy, even though I do not devoutly follow it, almost religiously like some people do, its contradictory it itself.

To call me a fanboy cause I took a side on an issue which is discontinuous with what you see, is quite stupid, and narrow, on your part...it doesn't say anything good about you. I bet you call everyone a fanboy.

And as far as my analogy about the books being like a witness in court constantly changing their story...that is pretty accurate. Retconning is changing the story. How is that analogy not accurate?

  • 03.28.2011 12:37 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: OrderedComa
You should join these morons here you'd fit right in.

Does that not break DeviantArt's Etiquette Policy?

  • 03.28.2011 1:11 PM PDT
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Deva Path


Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?

Ok Crook, Ok


1. Halo CE and Halo 2 were ported to the pc, all that means is that it was later released for the pc. thats it.

2.That ending of CE was an Easter egg and it isn't canon, johnson escaped on a pelican, which you would know if you read the book over 10 years ago.

3. It was changed do to newer content having elites being fought earlier in the war. For the majority of the war we only fought Grunts, with jackals and hunters not being as common, and elites being rare.
Which make sense if you think about it seeing how the covenant normally don't have issues waring with another species because of thier high tech. The idea makes sense but was changed becuase of newer content.

4. Seeing how the brutes had pretty much just joined the covenant around the time of the war; it makes sense for them not to fight as much seeing how they wouldn't be able to supply the covenant with constant numbers as they are limited to one planet. And the fact the elites didn't want them fighting which is why they had limited roles.

And the brutes weren't written "bad" or with little effort, you just don't understand the circumstances we saw them in.

- first encounter with the brutes on harvest was only done so becuase they were in the system and becuase if they had said something they woudl have been replaced by the elites to investigate, so they acted alone.
-they were seen at reach in limited encounters, i would assume mostly during the "pre-invasion" if were are to really take that as canon. if not in real limited numbers by SIIIs.
- They were only seen in halo 2 on high charity as guards and later on delta halo after high charity was in the system. This enforces canon seeing how they didn't have a large role in the military (something i pointed out earlier).


Halo is an FPS that being said it's story isn't going to be as solid as Mass Effect or Fallout (which is an RPG with near flawless canon and i mean flawless)or command and conquer (RTS). FPS games are normally harder to make a solid story because they don't stay around for long and when they do the developers change the story for the fans not in light of the actual story.


This is why Halo gets praised for it's deep story compared to something like call of duty (which is all multiplayer). We Got the lore with the ancient versions of factions to explore, don't for get the eons of covenant development, Rainforest wars, Post halo 3, untold of events during the war, etc.

There is alot of potential for the series it just depends if people want to play halo for the story or all they care about is mulitplayer. Thats all it comes down to, and yes i am a halo fanboy as well as a mass effect,Fallout,command and conquer,etc and have no issue with it.

  • 03.28.2011 1:13 PM PDT

@Naked Crook

Do you mean this thread here? Even though it was called "Unexplainable Errors in the Halo Canon" it's intent was to just deal with Reach and what some people believe it changed.

As far as I've read and seen, Halo 2, like most sequels, was not an intended sequel. So the scene with Johnson at the end of CE would not have been a cliffhanger, it's a non-canon easter egg now, because he was obviously still around 'til Halo 3, but until Halo 2 came out he was supposed to have died. So it was a retcon.

Why would changing the introduction be a major change by your reckoning and the appearance of a weapon be minor, they seem of the same importance to me.

I thought Contact Harvest did a pretty good job with the Brutes, I would think it would be your favorite book depiction as they're very much what you've been wanting, and it wasn't a Brute who started the first fighting of the war, so they have that plus going for them too. They're kind of like the barbarians in the days of Rome, or the Vikings in Medieval Europe, savage, but with their own primitive sense of honor. I'm thinking now that maybe different clans differ in their savagery and honor, like for instance the Brutes in Halo 2 didn't seem all that bad, and rather civilized, whereas the Brutes in Stomping on the Heels of a Fuss are complete savages and are living like little more than beasts.

=========

I know what a fanboy is, though the way I define it might be a little different than most people do. Usually what I mean by fanboy is someone who is devoted to one thing, not necessarily to the exclusion of others, but it holds a top priority. And I don't view being a fanboy, or fangirl, as an automatically bad thing, it can be bad, but I don't view the term fanboy in a negative light, it depends on how one is going about it. Like by my own definition I am something of an Elite fangirl, I am willing to hear criticism of them, though some of it I will simply overlook as irrational criticism. And, imo, being a fanboy/girl does not mean you will not make rational supporting arguments, it simply means that you hold a radical devotion to a series or aspect of a series, like the Brutes for you, or the Elites for me.

I have no problem at all with you, or anyone else, liking the Brutes, even I like them somewhat (though not much), they're just not my favorite and I find them a little disturbing, but they still have cool and some redeeming factors.

I can't speak for anyone else in that particular thread, but I chose the Arbiters for their skill, and also because I think they're cool, but mostly because of their skill in combat.

I'm not calling you a fanboy because you disagree with me, I called you a fanboy because you at least give the appearance of being devoted to the Brutes. And I don't think you need to be a religious follower of a series to be a fanboy/girl, one can be a fanboy of something without being a die hard fan of the series it belongs to. Like me for instance, I'm a huge Mandalorian fangirl, but I'm not particularly a huge fan of Star Wars, I mean I like it and all, but I'm not a die hard fan of it.

I don't even really find fault with all of your ideas, either Crook, you just come across a little too strongly in what you're arguing a little too often, and it puts people aggressively on the defensive. I respect your tenacity and your refusal to back down, I admire you for it. I think people would be a little more open to what you have to say if you tone the wording of your posts down a little bit, just a little bit of friendly advice, I don't mean any hate or anything by it, but it would probably do wonders for people's willingness to listen to your points.

And I apologize for any times I've come on too strong, even if I've thought what you've said adversarial and confrontational, that does not excuse my acting out on my frustration.

[Edited on 03.28.2011 8:21 PM PDT]

  • 03.28.2011 8:17 PM PDT


Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: OrderedComa
You should join these morons here you'd fit right in.

Does that not break DeviantArt's Etiquette Policy?


Them? And what they're saying/doing? Idk, I've never seen the Etiquette Policy, so I have no idea what it says or anything.
The second link is their own site, no matter how abhorrent they decide to act over there not much can be done about that, as it is their own site :/

  • 03.28.2011 8:20 PM PDT