Off Topic: The Flood
This topic has moved here: Subject: Events in Libya, Unrest in the Arab World And Africa UPDATE317
  • Subject: Events in Libya, Unrest in the Arab World And Africa UPDATE317
Subject: Events in Libya, Unrest in the Arab World And Africa UPDATE317

Duracell.
I don't keep going and going and going and...
but i Start, and just don't Stop.

So what if the saxophone is black?
it has better tone the the gold one.
damn straight i play Jazz.


Posted by: Dynex811

Posted by: Ultermarto

Posted by: chucky chief

Posted by: Ultermarto
Hey wait a sec, what about the soldiers?

The loyalist forces for Gadaffi, many of whom may actually reject gadaffi but be too scared to stand up. Many of whom are apparently misinformed as to who they are fighting. Those potentially innocent people could die at the hands of NATO. Crap. How did i fail to think of this untill now?.

Not that we have a choice, but is there any way we can save these people?.


Not really to be honest. And remember these people have bombarded misrata with artillery fire. Im pretty sure they knew they were killing civilians.

And even if they wernt, there is nothing we can do but hope they surrender.

I'm sure it's not the entire loyalist army who has taken part in the massacres, even willfully. That's like expecting every criminal in a prison to be in for murder.

First off that comparison makes no sense.

Secondly, the argument that you were following orders has been disregarded as a defense in international courts
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Trials
NATO needs to choose between the lesser of two evils, killing armed 'misled and threatened' soldiers or letting those same soldiers kill unarmed civilians.

while some of these people can claim they were doing it to save themselves they still did it.

  • 04.24.2011 1:53 PM PDT
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Posted by: Ultermarto

Posted by: Phoenix1330

I'm sure it's not the entire loyalist army who has taken part in the massacres, even willfully. That's like expecting every criminal in a prison to be in for murder.[/quote]a large majority of it actually has, but the 'forced to fight' thing keeps coming up, with people saying they watched defectors get burned alive for trying to not kill the rebels. The loyalist army is driven by fear not by desire to serve Gaddafi.

Exactly, and my question is do we punish individuals, or the faction in general, for being afraid?. It's only expected of them as human beings.


I dont think the UN or NATO has thought that far ahead. We arnt even near tripoli yet

ATM though, we need to kill those men as we cant afford to let them kill civilians

[Edited on 04.24.2011 1:54 PM PDT]

  • 04.24.2011 1:53 PM PDT

The cake is a pie


Posted by: Dynex811

First off that comparison makes no sense.

Secondly, the argument that you were following orders has been disregarded as a defense in international courts
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Trials

No not that they were following orders, that they were dictated their orders.

I mean just think, you're a Libyan soldier and you find the killing of your own civilians a disgrace. But what can you do?. I imagine running from an army is incredibly difficult. So it's kill, or die, not even sure if your death will count.

  • 04.24.2011 1:55 PM PDT

Duracell.
I don't keep going and going and going and...
but i Start, and just don't Stop.

So what if the saxophone is black?
it has better tone the the gold one.
damn straight i play Jazz.


Posted by: Ultermarto

Posted by: Phoenix1330

I'm sure it's not the entire loyalist army who has taken part in the massacres, even willfully. That's like expecting every criminal in a prison to be in for murder.[/quote]a large majority of it actually has, but the 'forced to fight' thing keeps coming up, with people saying they watched defectors get burned alive for trying to not kill the rebels. The loyalist army is driven by fear not by desire to serve Gaddafi.

Exactly, and my question is do we punish individuals, or the faction in general, for being afraid?. It's only expected of them as human beings.
they are still following their orders and killing civilians. The following those orders even under the penalty of death for not following them, is considered to be just as much a crime in international court as doing it willingly.

the justification is that your defection, and potential death will be less of a massacre than the 10 or 20 or even hundreds of civilians you could have killed to save your own skin.

yes, it's sad these people are dying in a battle they are forced to fight, but nonetheless, there is no way to get around it. they are still commuting the crimes that their deaths are the only way to stop.

  • 04.24.2011 1:57 PM PDT


Posted by: Ultermarto

Posted by: Dynex811

First off that comparison makes no sense.

Secondly, the argument that you were following orders has been disregarded as a defense in international courts
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Trials

No not that they were following orders, that they were dictated their orders.

I mean just think, you're a Libyan soldier and you find the killing of your own civilians a disgrace. But what can you do?. I imagine running from an army is incredibly difficult. So it's kill, or die, not even sure if your death will count.

Unfortunately that's why war is a terrible thing and not something to be celebrated. In order to stop having soldiers being forced to do this we need to topple the regime, and that means killing soldiers. If they can defect they should.

  • 04.24.2011 1:57 PM PDT

The cake is a pie


Posted by: chucky chief

Posted by: Ultermarto

Posted by: Phoenix1330

I'm sure it's not the entire loyalist army who has taken part in the massacres, even willfully. That's like expecting every criminal in a prison to be in for murder.[/quote]a large majority of it actually has, but the 'forced to fight' thing keeps coming up, with people saying they watched defectors get burned alive for trying to not kill the rebels. The loyalist army is driven by fear not by desire to serve Gaddafi.

Exactly, and my question is do we punish individuals, or the faction in general, for being afraid?. It's only expected of them as human beings.


I dont think the UN or NATO has thought that far ahead. We arnt even near tripoli yet

ATM though, we need to kill those men as we cant afford to let them kill civilians

I understand. We must be utilitairianist about who we kill. But I advise you, when and if we succeed in Libya, If the public tries to frame the loyalist faction as entirely a bunch of evil brutes, bear in mind there is innocence in there.

  • 04.24.2011 1:57 PM PDT

Duracell.
I don't keep going and going and going and...
but i Start, and just don't Stop.

So what if the saxophone is black?
it has better tone the the gold one.
damn straight i play Jazz.


Posted by: Ultermarto

Posted by: Dynex811

First off that comparison makes no sense.

Secondly, the argument that you were following orders has been disregarded as a defense in international courts
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Trials

No not that they were following orders, that they were dictated their orders.

I mean just think, you're a Libyan soldier and you find the killing of your own civilians a disgrace. But what can you do?. I imagine running from an army is incredibly difficult. So it's kill, or die, not even sure if your death will count.
international court says in such a situation that your death for refusing orders, and the deaths of those who also refuse is less of an atrocity than the death of the unarmed you would have killed. again with the choosing the lesser of two evils.

I agree, faced with death, i likely would follow orders. REGARDLESS, I understand why the court sees it as i should have died instead of carrying them out.

  • 04.24.2011 1:59 PM PDT

Duracell.
I don't keep going and going and going and...
but i Start, and just don't Stop.

So what if the saxophone is black?
it has better tone the the gold one.
damn straight i play Jazz.


Posted by: Ultermarto

Posted by: chucky chief

Posted by: Ultermarto

Posted by: Phoenix1330

I'm sure it's not the entire loyalist army who has taken part in the massacres, even willfully. That's like expecting every criminal in a prison to be in for murder.[/quote]a large majority of it actually has, but the 'forced to fight' thing keeps coming up, with people saying they watched defectors get burned alive for trying to not kill the rebels. The loyalist army is driven by fear not by desire to serve Gaddafi.

Exactly, and my question is do we punish individuals, or the faction in general, for being afraid?. It's only expected of them as human beings.


I dont think the UN or NATO has thought that far ahead. We arnt even near tripoli yet

ATM though, we need to kill those men as we cant afford to let them kill civilians

I understand. We must be utilitairianist about who we kill. But I advise you, when and if we succeed in Libya, If the public tries to frame the loyalist faction as entirely a bunch of evil brutes, bear in mind there is innocence in there.
agreed there are some soldiers or even a large number of them that are misled or led by fear, and I can sympathize, I still have to say that they need to be stopped regardless of their motives.

  • 04.24.2011 2:01 PM PDT

The cake is a pie


Posted by: Dynex811
Unfortunately that's why war is a terrible thing and not something to be celebrated. In order to stop having soldiers being forced to do this we need to topple the regime, and that means killing soldiers. If they can defect they should.

Yup. Once again I'm trying to think of an alternative solution, and once again I'm failing. However I still refuse to believe that we have no other options.

OK so the reason faction dictatorship happens, I assume, is because of liutenants and commanders being more corrupt; more willing to kill civilians. Now what if it's possible to stop these men from delivering their death penalties. How do we do it?. I say If a government can manipulate human emotion to make commanders so brutal, then we can manipulate human emotion to do otherwise.

This, being a shot in the dark.

  • 04.24.2011 2:03 PM PDT
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Posted by: Phoenix1330

Posted by: Ultermarto

Posted by: chucky chief

Posted by: Ultermarto

Posted by: Phoenix1330

I'm sure it's not the entire loyalist army who has taken part in the massacres, even willfully. That's like expecting every criminal in a prison to be in for murder.[/quote]a large majority of it actually has, but the 'forced to fight' thing keeps coming up, with people saying they watched defectors get burned alive for trying to not kill the rebels. The loyalist army is driven by fear not by desire to serve Gaddafi.

Exactly, and my question is do we punish individuals, or the faction in general, for being afraid?. It's only expected of them as human beings.


I dont think the UN or NATO has thought that far ahead. We arnt even near tripoli yet

ATM though, we need to kill those men as we cant afford to let them kill civilians

I understand. We must be utilitairianist about who we kill. But I advise you, when and if we succeed in Libya, If the public tries to frame the loyalist faction as entirely a bunch of evil brutes, bear in mind there is innocence in there.
agreed there are some soldiers or even a large number of them that are misled or led by fear, and I can sympathize, I still have to say that they need to be stopped regardless of their motives.


How hard is it to leave or escape the army in Libya?

  • 04.24.2011 2:03 PM PDT

The only thing we can do is bombard them with propaganda and hope they defect. Otherwise, sad but true, we have to attack them to keep civilians safe. If they surrender it's a good thing as well, better than if we kill them. The less death the better.

  • 04.24.2011 2:06 PM PDT

The cake is a pie


Posted by: Dynex811
The only thing we can do is bombard them with propaganda and hope they defect. Otherwise, sad but true, we have to attack them to keep civilians safe. If they surrender it's a good thing as well, better than if we kill them. The less death the better.

Hey, we have advanced communications technology. What if we were to broadcast to every medium rank unit footage of dead civilians and stuff. We can't broadcast it to higher ranks because they might just convince the middle ranks that these 'arn't real libyans'

  • 04.24.2011 2:09 PM PDT


Posted by: Ultermarto

Posted by: Dynex811
The only thing we can do is bombard them with propaganda and hope they defect. Otherwise, sad but true, we have to attack them to keep civilians safe. If they surrender it's a good thing as well, better than if we kill them. The less death the better.

Hey, we have advanced communications technology. What if we were to broadcast to every medium rank unit footage of dead civilians and stuff. We can't broadcast it to higher ranks because they might just convince the middle ranks that these 'arn't real libyans'

I'm not sure if that's possible. We're already hijacking some of their transmission but soldiers force people to stick to Libyan state TV. Or is that one of the other countries? I think it's Libya.

  • 04.24.2011 2:19 PM PDT

Why does this thread even exist? We can all read the news.

  • 04.24.2011 2:21 PM PDT


Posted by: sentenashi
Why does this thread even exist? We can all read the news.

Because people like you keep bumping it. It was dead before you posted here. Thanks a lot dick.

  • 04.24.2011 2:22 PM PDT
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Posted by: sentenashi
Why does this thread even exist? We can all read the news.


This lets us discuss the news, and anyway the news is often filled with rubbish [royal wedding], so we have to look for the proper stories.

  • 04.24.2011 2:25 PM PDT

The cake is a pie


Posted by: Dynex811

Posted by: Ultermarto

Posted by: Dynex811
The only thing we can do is bombard them with propaganda and hope they defect. Otherwise, sad but true, we have to attack them to keep civilians safe. If they surrender it's a good thing as well, better than if we kill them. The less death the better.

Hey, we have advanced communications technology. What if we were to broadcast to every medium rank unit footage of dead civilians and stuff. We can't broadcast it to higher ranks because they might just convince the middle ranks that these 'arn't real libyans'

I'm not sure if that's possible. We're already hijacking some of their transmission but soldiers force people to stick to Libyan state TV. Or is that one of the other countries? I think it's Libya.

Ok then send a practical message?. Like a package with the footage inside? A set of prisoners carrying the footage that we return to the loyalists? An unmanned vehicle?

I think we could pull it off, at least as an experimental procedure of psychological warfare.

  • 04.24.2011 2:33 PM PDT

The cake is a pie


Posted by: chucky chief

Posted by: sentenashi
Why does this thread even exist? We can all read the news.


This lets us discuss the news, and anyway the news is often filled with rubbish [royal wedding], so we have to look for the proper stories.

+ sports
+ angry voters who didn't know what they were voting for even though the parties were perfectly clear
+ ragers about the snow (if there was any)
+ fear mongering about powerful eastern countries

This thread is far more informative than the news.

  • 04.24.2011 2:34 PM PDT


Posted by: Ultermarto

Posted by: Dynex811

Posted by: Ultermarto

Posted by: Dynex811
The only thing we can do is bombard them with propaganda and hope they defect. Otherwise, sad but true, we have to attack them to keep civilians safe. If they surrender it's a good thing as well, better than if we kill them. The less death the better.

Hey, we have advanced communications technology. What if we were to broadcast to every medium rank unit footage of dead civilians and stuff. We can't broadcast it to higher ranks because they might just convince the middle ranks that these 'arn't real libyans'

I'm not sure if that's possible. We're already hijacking some of their transmission but soldiers force people to stick to Libyan state TV. Or is that one of the other countries? I think it's Libya.

Ok then send a practical message?. Like a package with the footage inside? A set of prisoners carrying the footage that we return to the loyalists? An unmanned vehicle?

I think we could pull it off, at least as an experimental procedure of psychological warfare.

Those suggestions aren't really practical, especially when civilians are being slaughtered right before our eyes. I don't want to experiment with people's lives.

You know what is a practical message though? A bombing run.

I may sound callous but I'm just being curt today.

[Edited on 04.24.2011 2:35 PM PDT]

  • 04.24.2011 2:35 PM PDT

Duracell.
I don't keep going and going and going and...
but i Start, and just don't Stop.

So what if the saxophone is black?
it has better tone the the gold one.
damn straight i play Jazz.


Posted by: Ultermarto

Posted by: Dynex811

Posted by: Ultermarto

Posted by: Dynex811
The only thing we can do is bombard them with propaganda and hope they defect. Otherwise, sad but true, we have to attack them to keep civilians safe. If they surrender it's a good thing as well, better than if we kill them. The less death the better.

Hey, we have advanced communications technology. What if we were to broadcast to every medium rank unit footage of dead civilians and stuff. We can't broadcast it to higher ranks because they might just convince the middle ranks that these 'arn't real libyans'

I'm not sure if that's possible. We're already hijacking some of their transmission but soldiers force people to stick to Libyan state TV. Or is that one of the other countries? I think it's Libya.

Ok then send a practical message?. Like a package with the footage inside? A set of prisoners carrying the footage that we return to the loyalists? An unmanned vehicle?

I think we could pull it off, at least as an experimental procedure of psychological warfare.
we tried that in WW2 and to our knowledge it had no effect at all, if anything they thought what we sent were falsified images and they fought harder.

  • 04.24.2011 2:43 PM PDT

Duracell.
I don't keep going and going and going and...
but i Start, and just don't Stop.

So what if the saxophone is black?
it has better tone the the gold one.
damn straight i play Jazz.


Posted by: chucky chief

Posted by: sentenashi
Why does this thread even exist? We can all read the news.


This lets us discuss the news, and anyway the news is often filled with rubbish [royal wedding], so we have to look for the proper stories.
I love how when ever a comment like this pops up the regulars here defend it very strongly, I'm happy to see so many people share my views in keeping this alive.

  • 04.24.2011 2:45 PM PDT


Posted by: Phoenix1330

Posted by: chucky chief

Posted by: sentenashi
Why does this thread even exist? We can all read the news.


This lets us discuss the news, and anyway the news is often filled with rubbish [royal wedding], so we have to look for the proper stories.
I love how when ever a comment like this pops up the regulars here defend it very strongly, I'm happy to see so many people share my views in keeping this alive.

Well most people who say those things are poorly disguised trolls. I can't see anyone having a problem with this thread.

Also, any news on the Brega attack?

[Edited on 04.24.2011 2:47 PM PDT]

  • 04.24.2011 2:46 PM PDT
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Posted by: Dynex811

Posted by: Phoenix1330

Posted by: chucky chief

Posted by: sentenashi
Why does this thread even exist? We can all read the news.


This lets us discuss the news, and anyway the news is often filled with rubbish [royal wedding], so we have to look for the proper stories.
I love how when ever a comment like this pops up the regulars here defend it very strongly, I'm happy to see so many people share my views in keeping this alive.

Well most people who say those things are poorly disguised trolls. I can't see anyone having a problem with this thread.

Also, any news on the Brega attack?


I cant see anything on the Brega attack on Al Jazeera. Its mostly about how gaddafis forces are retreating from Misrata

  • 04.24.2011 2:49 PM PDT

Duracell.
I don't keep going and going and going and...
but i Start, and just don't Stop.

So what if the saxophone is black?
it has better tone the the gold one.
damn straight i play Jazz.


Posted by: Dynex811

Posted by: Phoenix1330

Posted by: chucky chief

Posted by: sentenashi
Why does this thread even exist? We can all read the news.


This lets us discuss the news, and anyway the news is often filled with rubbish [royal wedding], so we have to look for the proper stories.
I love how when ever a comment like this pops up the regulars here defend it very strongly, I'm happy to see so many people share my views in keeping this alive.

Well most people who say those things are poorly disguised trolls. I can't see anyone having a problem with this thread.

Also, any news on the Brega attack?
nothing on brega at all today. not sure if they haven't advanced yet, planning on using the cover of night, or what the plan was. no news on it though.

  • 04.24.2011 2:52 PM PDT

That's a shame. I'd like to see that town retaken. Maybe they're actually consulting with NATO to coordinate airstrikes first.

  • 04.24.2011 2:53 PM PDT