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  • Subject: Events in Libya, Unrest in the Arab World And Africa UPDATE324
Subject: Events in Libya, Unrest in the Arab World And Africa UPDATE324

not Pikesmaker

Posted by: Phoenix1330

Posted by: Ultermarto

Posted by: Phoenix1330

Posted by: lonepaul2441
China and Russia should keep there noses out of this they obviously have no interest. Chances are they are worried about more democratic nations popping up and communism weakening.

The UN has the right to be anywhere that civilians are being hurt. Obviously Russia and China don't care since they kill their own.
Russia is actually a Democratic nation.

Yes and I don't think China has anything to worry about. Their economy is fine.

It's possible that the two countries, like several others, see no reason to help another countries problemn. In some ways they are correct. However I think we were right to intervene. Anybody ever see the film 'Shooting Dogs'?. That is what happens when we sit by and do nothing.
or even Hotel Rwanda. THAT is what happens when someone in the UN exercises there VETO power over an intervention. The Canadian General in charge of UN operations in Rwanda said that had they been allowed to fire, they could have saved almost every life there.

THAT is why sometimes we need to intervene, even if it doesn't further our goals, it is the RIGHT thing to do.
I'm sure you're sprinting to your nearest recruiting station as we speak.

[Edited on 04.26.2011 12:44 PM PDT]

  • 04.26.2011 12:41 PM PDT

Duracell.
I don't keep going and going and going and...
but i Start, and just don't Stop.

So what if the saxophone is black?
it has better tone the the gold one.
damn straight i play Jazz.


Posted by: Pikesmakker VI
Posted by: Phoenix1330

Posted by: Ultermarto

Posted by: Phoenix1330

Posted by: lonepaul2441
China and Russia should keep there noses out of this they obviously have no interest. Chances are they are worried about more democratic nations popping up and communism weakening.

The UN has the right to be anywhere that civilians are being hurt. Obviously Russia and China don't care since they kill their own.
Russia is actually a Democratic nation.

Yes and I don't think China has anything to worry about. Their economy is fine.

It's possible that the two countries, like several others, see no reason to help another countries problemn. In some ways they are correct. However I think we were right to intervene. Anybody ever see the film 'Shooting Dogs'?. That is what happens when we sit by and do nothing.
or even Hotel Rwanda. THAT is what happens when someone in the UN exercises there VETO power over an intervention. The Canadian General in charge of UN operations in Rwanda said that had they been allowed to fire, they could have saved almost every life there.

THAT is why sometimes we need to intervene, even if it doesn't further our goals, it is the RIGHT thing to do.
I'm sure you're sprinting to your nearest recruiting station as we speak.
depends on how Canada's elections go.

if post election we commit further forces, this intervention has really opened that window in my mind again.

I've always thought about joining the Canadian forces though, I'm proud of our country's military history, so i wouldn't be against it.

  • 04.26.2011 12:58 PM PDT
Subject: Events in Libya, Unrest in the Arab World And Africa UPDATE323
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Posted by: Ultermarto

Posted by: Phoenix1330

[quote]Posted by: Ultermarto
WHAT? Why is Gadaffi shelling civilians in particular?. What does it win him?.

I guess it lowers morale. But let's hope the people take this as a reason to revolt rather than a reason to hide.



I thought of something earlier, gentlemen. How are we actually going to capture Gadaffi. The man has endless money and a military at his disposal. He could be anywhere. Even if the rebels breach tripoli and take hold of it, Gadaffi will be long gone.
Doubt he will, he has no more money as the world locked his accounts, and he can't get out by sea due to a NATO blockade, and he's surrounded on all sides by the rebels or countries sympathetic to the rebels.

Simply by land?. Libya is a big country. A big, wide country with lots of cars and roads. Why can't he simply hop in an armoured vehicle and drvie annonomously from Tripoli. Although I suppose if that happened the rebels would have won.[/quote

I would actually like that to happen. For gaddafi to flee tripoli would mean that that the conflict would be over, and our forces wouldnt have to invade tripoli which would doubtless result in innocent civilian lives. Sure we couldnt get revenge on gaddafi then, but at least the bloodshed would have ended with a rebel victory

  • 04.26.2011 1:02 PM PDT

The cake is a pie


Posted by: chucky chief

Posted by: Ultermarto

Posted by: Phoenix1330

[quote]Posted by: Ultermarto
WHAT? Why is Gadaffi shelling civilians in particular?. What does it win him?.

I guess it lowers morale. But let's hope the people take this as a reason to revolt rather than a reason to hide.



I thought of something earlier, gentlemen. How are we actually going to capture Gadaffi. The man has endless money and a military at his disposal. He could be anywhere. Even if the rebels breach tripoli and take hold of it, Gadaffi will be long gone.
Doubt he will, he has no more money as the world locked his accounts, and he can't get out by sea due to a NATO blockade, and he's surrounded on all sides by the rebels or countries sympathetic to the rebels.

Simply by land?. Libya is a big country. A big, wide country with lots of cars and roads. Why can't he simply hop in an armoured vehicle and drvie annonomously from Tripoli. Although I suppose if that happened the rebels would have won.[/quote

I would actually like that to happen. For gaddafi to flee tripoli would mean that that the conflict would be over, and our forces wouldnt have to invade tripoli which would doubtless result in innocent civilian lives. Sure we couldnt get revenge on gaddafi then, but at least the bloodshed would have ended with a rebel victory

No it wouldn't be entirely over then. Gadaffi would probably pull together some forces and launch some counterstrikes.

  • 04.26.2011 1:04 PM PDT
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Posted by: Ultermarto

Posted by: chucky chief

Posted by: Ultermarto

Posted by: Phoenix1330

[quote]Posted by: Ultermarto
WHAT? Why is Gadaffi shelling civilians in particular?. What does it win him?.

I guess it lowers morale. But let's hope the people take this as a reason to revolt rather than a reason to hide.



I thought of something earlier, gentlemen. How are we actually going to capture Gadaffi. The man has endless money and a military at his disposal. He could be anywhere. Even if the rebels breach tripoli and take hold of it, Gadaffi will be long gone.
Doubt he will, he has no more money as the world locked his accounts, and he can't get out by sea due to a NATO blockade, and he's surrounded on all sides by the rebels or countries sympathetic to the rebels.

Simply by land?. Libya is a big country. A big, wide country with lots of cars and roads. Why can't he simply hop in an armoured vehicle and drvie annonomously from Tripoli. Although I suppose if that happened the rebels would have won.[/quote

I would actually like that to happen. For gaddafi to flee tripoli would mean that that the conflict would be over, and our forces wouldnt have to invade tripoli which would doubtless result in innocent civilian lives. Sure we couldnt get revenge on gaddafi then, but at least the bloodshed would have ended with a rebel victory

No it wouldn't be entirely over then. Gadaffi would probably pull together some forces and launch some counterstrikes.


Im pretty sure tripoli is gaddafis last line of defense. Thats the centre of his popularity and his strongest point. And he can hide from nato air strikes in the city. If he leaves it, he is vulnerable.

[And i thought we were talking about if gaddafi tried to flee libya]

  • 04.26.2011 1:07 PM PDT
Subject: Events in Libya, Unrest in the Arab World And Africa UPDATE324

not Pikesmaker

Posted by: Phoenix1330
depends on how Canada's elections go.

if post election we commit further forces, this intervention has really opened that window in my mind again.

I've always thought about joining the Canadian forces though, I'm proud of our country's military history, so i wouldn't be against it.
That's certainly a respectable position.

  • 04.26.2011 1:26 PM PDT

Duracell.
I don't keep going and going and going and...
but i Start, and just don't Stop.

So what if the saxophone is black?
it has better tone the the gold one.
damn straight i play Jazz.

Found out why China is so against the coalition bombing in Libya or becoming more involved.

They apparently have more than $14 Billion in resource investments there, and apparently some of them are getting destroyed by airstrikes and the fighting on the ground, such as oil fields near Brega.

They also have another set of deals with the Gaddafi Regime worth Billions more that they fear will fall through if a more 'western' style government takes over.

  • 04.26.2011 2:32 PM PDT

Duracell.
I don't keep going and going and going and...
but i Start, and just don't Stop.

So what if the saxophone is black?
it has better tone the the gold one.
damn straight i play Jazz.

There are about 3000 Government troops stationed in Brega and the next two towns on the way to Misurata. It appears they have dug in and opted to stop the Ajdabiyan command for the rebels from advancing to meet the battered city of Misurata.

  • 04.26.2011 2:36 PM PDT

Duracell.
I don't keep going and going and going and...
but i Start, and just don't Stop.

So what if the saxophone is black?
it has better tone the the gold one.
damn straight i play Jazz.

if you were wondering what it is currently like in Syria this article describes it perfectly.

  • 04.26.2011 2:53 PM PDT

Posted by: Phoenix1330
There are about 3000 Government troops stationed in Brega and the next two towns on the way to Misurata. It appears they have dug in and opted to stop the Ajdabiyan command for the rebels from advancing to meet the battered city of Misurata.


Rebels trying to get NATO to soften them up?

  • 04.26.2011 2:55 PM PDT

Duracell.
I don't keep going and going and going and...
but i Start, and just don't Stop.

So what if the saxophone is black?
it has better tone the the gold one.
damn straight i play Jazz.

The Syrian Government has started expiring passport visas of foreign journalists, forcing them to leave the country.

  • 04.26.2011 2:57 PM PDT

Duracell.
I don't keep going and going and going and...
but i Start, and just don't Stop.

So what if the saxophone is black?
it has better tone the the gold one.
damn straight i play Jazz.


Posted by: Mereel N7
Posted by: Phoenix1330
There are about 3000 Government troops stationed in Brega and the next two towns on the way to Misurata. It appears they have dug in and opted to stop the Ajdabiyan command for the rebels from advancing to meet the battered city of Misurata.


Rebels trying to get NATO to soften them up?
more like the Loyalists are massing there and building up defensive positions.

  • 04.26.2011 2:59 PM PDT

Syria is still set to be on the UN Human Rights Council, despite brutality toward civilians Source

  • 04.26.2011 2:59 PM PDT
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We are determined that before the sun sets on this terrible struggle our flag will be recognized throughout the world as a symbol of freedom on the one hand and of overwhelming force on the other.

Russian and China should be expelled from the UN.

Seriously, they disagree with everything the west tries to do.

  • 04.26.2011 3:02 PM PDT


Posted by: Phoenix1330
Found out why China is so against the coalition bombing in Libya or becoming more involved.

They apparently have more than $14 Billion in resource investments there, and apparently some of them are getting destroyed by airstrikes and the fighting on the ground, such as oil fields near Brega.

They also have another set of deals with the Gaddafi Regime worth Billions more that they fear will fall through if a more 'western' style government takes over.

Can't the Western Nations buy China off with some sort of deal that protects/insures their investments?


Posted by: I Em I Raptor
Russian and China should be expelled from the UN.

Seriously, they disagree with everything the west tries to do.

So maybe the West should be expelled for disagreeing with China and Russia.

The attitude of "screw them because they don't agree with us" works both ways my friend.

  • 04.26.2011 3:14 PM PDT

Posted by: I Em I Raptor
Russian and China should be expelled from the UN.

Seriously, they disagree with everything the west tries to do.


thats to drastic

removing the veto power because its outdated isn't a bad idea though.

  • 04.26.2011 3:14 PM PDT

Duracell.
I don't keep going and going and going and...
but i Start, and just don't Stop.

So what if the saxophone is black?
it has better tone the the gold one.
damn straight i play Jazz.


Posted by: Mereel N7
Posted by: I Em I Raptor
Russian and China should be expelled from the UN.

Seriously, they disagree with everything the west tries to do.


thats to drastic

removing the veto power because its outdated isn't a bad idea though.
Indeed, Veto power needs to go for all 5 Veto countries, giving every country equal power.

Especially as it was there due to those 5 being the only countries to have nuclear technology at the time. Now Canada and Japan(neither with Veto power) are more advanced in Nuclear technologies than any of those five, and by that justification North Korea should be a UN member state and hold Veto power.

  • 04.26.2011 3:18 PM PDT

Duracell.
I don't keep going and going and going and...
but i Start, and just don't Stop.

So what if the saxophone is black?
it has better tone the the gold one.
damn straight i play Jazz.


Posted by: Dynex811

Posted by: Phoenix1330
Found out why China is so against the coalition bombing in Libya or becoming more involved.

They apparently have more than $14 Billion in resource investments there, and apparently some of them are getting destroyed by airstrikes and the fighting on the ground, such as oil fields near Brega.

They also have another set of deals with the Gaddafi Regime worth Billions more that they fear will fall through if a more 'western' style government takes over.

Can't the Western Nations buy China off with some sort of deal that protects/insures their investments?


probably not, some of their assets have already been destroyed by NATO and the Rebels, it's probably to late.

  • 04.26.2011 3:19 PM PDT

Posted by: Phoenix1330

Posted by: Dynex811

Posted by: Phoenix1330
Found out why China is so against the coalition bombing in Libya or becoming more involved.

They apparently have more than $14 Billion in resource investments there, and apparently some of them are getting destroyed by airstrikes and the fighting on the ground, such as oil fields near Brega.

They also have another set of deals with the Gaddafi Regime worth Billions more that they fear will fall through if a more 'western' style government takes over.

Can't the Western Nations buy China off with some sort of deal that protects/insures their investments?


probably not, some of their assets have already been destroyed by NATO and the Rebels, it's probably to late.


well, we can use the lives are greater then Money argument. and that most of the countries in the coalition give them the money Libya would give them IN A DAY.

  • 04.26.2011 3:22 PM PDT
Subject: Events in Libya, Unrest in the Arab World And Africa UPDATE323
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Yes I'm fairly young. No, that doesn't mean I'm automatically dumber than you or have less life experience, thats just generally the case. I am not your general case.

Posted by: Phoenix1330

Posted by: That Atheist
Posted by: Phoenix1330
the C7 is the more commonly used variant of the M16(manufactured by Colt Canada rather than Colt US)that has a longer stock and is built a little sturdier with an increase in cost. and the same goes for the C8 and the M4

I'm not sure where you're getting you're information, because that doesn't sound right to me.
the increased cost and longer stock with a sturdier material came straight from wikipedia, experience with firing the C7, M16, C8 and M4 tell me the C7 and M16 are essentially the same weapon, and the C8 and M4 as well.

C7 and C8 being more commonly used comes from the list of countries that use either one. More countries use the C7 than the M16, but more M16s were built.

it's just more likely that a NATO country would supply the C7 than the M16 due to it being what they have.

Ah, I see. Sorry, I'm not used to thinking about my peace-mongering home country as the kind of place that secretly smuggles weapons but you cleared it up for me.

  • 04.26.2011 3:48 PM PDT

Duracell.
I don't keep going and going and going and...
but i Start, and just don't Stop.

So what if the saxophone is black?
it has better tone the the gold one.
damn straight i play Jazz.


Posted by: That Atheist
Posted by: Phoenix1330

Posted by: That Atheist
Posted by: Phoenix1330
the C7 is the more commonly used variant of the M16(manufactured by Colt Canada rather than Colt US)that has a longer stock and is built a little sturdier with an increase in cost. and the same goes for the C8 and the M4

I'm not sure where you're getting you're information, because that doesn't sound right to me.
the increased cost and longer stock with a sturdier material came straight from wikipedia, experience with firing the C7, M16, C8 and M4 tell me the C7 and M16 are essentially the same weapon, and the C8 and M4 as well.

C7 and C8 being more commonly used comes from the list of countries that use either one. More countries use the C7 than the M16, but more M16s were built.

it's just more likely that a NATO country would supply the C7 than the M16 due to it being what they have.

Ah, I see. Sorry, I'm not used to thinking about my peace-mongering home country as the kind of place that secretly smuggles weapons but you cleared it up for me.
Ah, I have the same feeling about Canada, but most people (Canadians included) forget some of the Bad assery we displayed in our history(Vimy Ridge, Caen, Italy, the Devils Brigade) and that conflicts like Libya is where Canada will get it's hands dirty in anyway possible.

Regardless, the C7 or C8 are just manufactured by Colt Canada, not necessarily being supplied to the rebels by Canada, it could be any NATO country supplying them with C7 and C8s

  • 04.26.2011 4:29 PM PDT

A couple twitter posts about recent developments (take with a grain of salt considering the source):

2 Freedom fighters & 50 Gaddafi forces were killed in battle at Jadou.#libya #feb17

#misrata 2nite. 34 toyota land cruisers with soldiers and machine guns. #NATO bombed them.#Libya


Misrata: NATO destroyed a convoy of 35 jeeps and 4x4s carrying Gaddafi mercenaries and soldiers into Misrata, from the east #libya

gaddafi troops tried 2 sneak 2 center of misrata 2nite. 34 toyota land cruisers with soldiers and machine guns. NATO bombed them.#Libya

TRIPOLI BREAKING: NATO jets destroyed the Sidi Bilal naval base today, which is where Gaddafi was preparing to attack Misrata from #libya



  • 04.26.2011 4:54 PM PDT
Subject: Events in Libya, Unrest in the Arab World And Africa UPDATE326

tl:dr version below

Composite Twiiter update from Misrata (Libya Alhurra Tweetdeck , so unconfirmed): "ChangeInLibya MhalwesMisrata update: Today we cleared the apartment buildings on the coastal road in the area close to Kirzaz, and we killed the snipers and Gaddafi forces there and thankfully we managed to lift the freedom flags on that area too, meaning it has been liberated. As for the group of Gaddafi vehicles (35) that tried to sneak into Misrata from the East, from the area of Gharghar, NATO managed to destroy this convoy, which was clearly trying to attack Misrata's port with anti-aircraft cannons of...The revolutionaries then managed to finish off all of the soldiers and the vehicles that survived NATO's initial attack. Morale is extremely high and people are very happy to help each other out, despite the constant bombardment. MhalwesMisrata update: and the people of Misrata are not phased by Gaddafi's attacks. He destroyed a few warehouses today, one of them was...As for the Tripoli street bridge, the area is relatively quiet nowadays despite the fact that Gaddafi soldiers are based in the airport nearby. We're still surrounding them there and there were some clashes next to the air academy and we heard that there were 50 cars carrying the freedom flag trying to sneak into Misrata?" Yes, we heard about them and we told everyone about these news and all the revolutionaries are ready for any attack at all of the city's checkpoints hat we'll not only free our city but even Tripoli soon. We saw the videos of Tripoli's youth and we tell them that we freedom.
captainjane: He also said, G troops are low on moral .

tl:dr = Rebel forces have retaken Kirzaz, are retaking Misurata, Misuratan morale is very high while Gadaffi forces have low, they are ready for a possible counter attack on Misurata (unless I read the part wrong and Rebels are sending reinforcements), and Rebels in Misurata are un-phased by the bombardment.

[Edited on 04.26.2011 5:02 PM PDT]

  • 04.26.2011 4:58 PM PDT

Also, this is just a well shot picture with an interesting caption below (rebels about to storm a building in Misurata)
http://twitpic.com/4px76l

Also a disturbing rumor

Many reports that 2000/3000 new mercenaries arrived in #Tripoli from @Algeria in past 10 days

Again, could be a rumor, could be a sad truth.

[Edited on 04.26.2011 5:08 PM PDT]

  • 04.26.2011 5:06 PM PDT

Posted by: Dynex811
Also, this is just a well shot picture with an interesting caption below (rebels about to storm a building in Misurata)
http://twitpic.com/4px76l

Also a disturbing rumor

Many reports that 2000/3000 new mercenaries arrived in #Tripoli from @Algeria in past 10 days

Again, could be a rumor, could be a sad truth.


that photographer came at a good time, didn't he?

oh great, more Mercs. well, i guess they will be the last ones considering Gaddafi is now boxed in

  • 04.26.2011 5:12 PM PDT