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Subject: Are 343i Our Only Hope?


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
I didn't see Reach's campaign as bad...


+1 to that, infact I think Halo: Reach has the most complete, mature and well realised campaign out of all the games, its taken everything learned from previous games and came up with a fun, frantic, well rounded campaign that didn't really break the whole universe as much as some people claim.

  • 03.24.2011 4:37 PM PDT

Vengeance only leads to an ongoing cycle of hatred.


Posted by: CTN 0452 9
After the release of Legends I thought that the Halo canon was doomed to die a very profitable death. Fortunately it seems that 343i got the message and started to put out more quality stuff like Legends and Cryptum.

I don't know why everybody hated Legends. I thought it was great. Except for Odd One Out, of course. That was an abomination. But, the others were nice, short stories like Halo Evolutions.

and Reach shows that our beloved Bungie no longer seems to.
This 100%^

  • 03.24.2011 4:41 PM PDT


Posted by: PLUT0NIUM 235

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
I didn't see Reach's campaign as bad...


+1 to that, infact I think Halo: Reach has the most complete, mature and well realised campaign out of all the games, its taken everything learned from previous games and came up with a fun, frantic, well rounded campaign that didn't really break the whole universe as much as some people claim.


I don't think any Halo game is really an ultimate one in every aspect, but as far as gameplay/level design goes, I (half-) give that honour to Halo 3. Just look the 3 (!) scarab fights, if that's not pushing up the ante in vehicular combat. Even the hornet segment in the mission The Covenant was more impressive and fun than the falcon bit of Reach. It was basically the same thing except you had to drop at different places, why not try to do something really special? In that respect alone, Reach is almost the worse. The pacing was all over the place and the levels felt too contrived for their own good. It's like they tried to condensate as much as possible the Halo formula, so they had to streamline it as much as possible, resulting in an experience that felt lacking, that felt like big chunks of missions were deleted for some reason. In other words, you feel like running through the whole thing. I think Halo CE is the one that got it best, followed by Halo 2 (which even had 3 missions taking the cutting room, but all the others were complete). While some moments felt brief and rushed in Halo 3, some moments were very well paced.

To me, Reach's campaign feels like the most dumbed down one of the whole franchise. On the other hand, it is the most polished one, giving some pretty good gameplay (but then it had several flaws compared to the other games on certain aspects). But at the end of the day, I just think they tried to make it too much as an Halo game, barely adding anything new, not scaling things up. The art design is top notch, the music and all this, but I just feel there's quite a bit missing so Reach would've realized its full potential. Longer, more carefully paced levels, more different environments, bigger scale encounters, more developped, open level design, etc... I really hope Frankie means it by saying he wants to make the gameplay deeper. Make us REAL sandbox levels, not just circular areas connected by corridors, rince and repeat. What's the point of trying to make relatively open areas if there's only one exit anyway, if there's no way to use the level design to its advantage?

[Edited on 03.24.2011 5:04 PM PDT]

  • 03.24.2011 4:52 PM PDT

Vengeance only leads to an ongoing cycle of hatred.


Posted by: Evil Johnny

Posted by: PLUT0NIUM 235

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
I didn't see Reach's campaign as bad...


+1 to that, infact I think Halo: Reach has the most complete, mature and well realised campaign out of all the games, its taken everything learned from previous games and came up with a fun, frantic, well rounded campaign that didn't really break the whole universe as much as some people claim.


I don't think any Halo game is really an ultimate one in every aspect, but as far as gameplay/level design goes, I (half-) give that honour to Halo 3. Just look the 3 (!) scarab fights, if that's not pushing up the ante in vehicular combat. Even the hornet segment in the mission The Covenant was more impressive and fun than the falcon bit of Reach. It was basically the same thing except you had to drop at different places, why not try to do something really special? In that respect alone, Reach is almost the worse. The pacing was all over the place and the levels felt too contrived for their own good. It's like they tried to condensate as much as possible the Halo formula, so they had to formulize it as much as possible, resulting in an experience that felt lacking, that felt like big chunks of missions were deleted for some reason. In other words, you feel like running through the whole thing. I think Halo CE is the one that got it best, followed by Halo 2 (which even had 3 missions taking the cutting room, but all the others were complete). While some moments felt brief and rushed in Halo 3, some moments were very well paced.

I agree 100%. I had the most fun with Halo 3 then -not just any Halo game- but out of any xbox game.

  • 03.24.2011 5:02 PM PDT

Posted by: GPK Ethan
It's 'Is 343i' not 'Are 343i', thought I'd point it out, bad English isn't fun.


He's referring to 343i as a collective conglomeration of people, in which case "are" would be acceptable English to use. If he was referring to the company as a singular entity, then it would be "is."

  • 03.24.2011 5:02 PM PDT

Brains beats brawn get used to it

Fear the Red Comet

Variety is the spice of life.
Long live games.
Death to all fanboys.


Posted by: ROBERTO jh

Posted by: StealthSlasher2

Posted by: hotshot revan II
Halo fiction ain't dying
*looks at cryptum,evoltuions,.....*


Anyone implying that Halo games have had such a deep story on their own without the expanded universe is just kidding themselves.


Disregarding Halo 2, the terminals, the Assembly and the numerous religious symbols, yeah, you're right.

Though I seriously have to disagree about the whole Mass Effect thing. It can be considered just as generic as any other sci-fi. Really sci-fi isn't all that original anymore, and Mass Effect especially is simply too shallow in story for me to really get into it. In fact, Halo is the only sci-fi I can get into.

For me, sci-fi doesn't usually do it for me, I usually find it bland and unispired rehashes of previous stories and premises, but Halo is an odd exception. Probably because it goes beyond just being another space adventure and goes deep in morals and human nature backed by a story the likes of which I've never seen.


And tell me then. Excluding all bits of expanded universe information. What would the Assembly, Terminals, and religious symbols be applied to?


You don't seem to get where I'm coming from when I wrote my first post. Halo is far too reliant on its expanded universe to give it depth in game. Now I am far more invested into the Halo Universe as a whole than Mass Effect, but you should realize that you should be taking a step back and look at Halo when you strip away the expanded universe when considering my statement.

What morals and lessons in human nature exist in the main Halo games by themselves? None. ODST gets massive props for Sadie's story for conveying that sense of desperation, corruption, and moral lines being drawn in the midst of genocide, and sure you can go read up the Halo 3 terminals about the Didact and his futile attempts to stop the flood without resorting to Halo. Yet that wouldn't be dealing with what's occurring in the present timeline of the games nor (with expanded universe out of the picture) would there be any weight to it past the rather direct telling of his and Bias' actions. But the other games save for 2? There's nothing.

For example, were it not for the books. No one would know how sleezy and unethical ONI is. No one. It is never even remotely hinted at or straight up mentioned what ONI does in the Halo Universe other than being an intelligence organization that happens to house vital data both in ODST and Reach whilst in Halo 3 it is mentioned that an ONI unit was responsible for some recon work.

The story of the Spartans? John being more than a superhuman meat puppet? None of that.

The difference between a Spartan II and Spartan III? Completely untold to the masses who are unaware of the existence of Ghosts of Onyx.

The data pads and chatter about the assembly and consequent actions throughout the Haloverse? Pointless without information from the extended universe about the Orion, Spartan project, and Halsey's Journal among other things.

Hell, if it wasn't for the novels, no one would know what MAC stands for or the difference the platform makes compared to UNSC ship weapons. The only thing people would take from Halo 2 in regards to that is that those platforms can "punch a hole clean through a Covenant Capital Ship".

I find it ironic you call Mass Effect shallow considering that, for what it's worth, it actually gets into the nooks and crannies of every single organization, tech, and major events all in the same game rather than requiring the purchase of additional fiction material. It's a stark contrast to Halo.


  • 03.24.2011 5:07 PM PDT


Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: CTN 0452 9
Reach shows that our beloved Bungie no longer seems to.

All I saw was Bungie trying to give Reach a more fitting showing than TFoR. TFoR's description of the Battle of Reach felt like a rush job.


I'm with you, Cobra, the end of TFoR felt rather rushed and kind of half-assed to me. It wasn't really unenjoyable, but it felt like "Oh, I should probably end the book soon, I guess I can't give much info about Reach's Fall even though the book is called 'The Fall of Reach'".

  • 03.24.2011 5:09 PM PDT
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Xbox 360-Ultrademon 38

Original Xbox-Ultrademon 37

And yes, I failed at linking. Silly me. My linked alt account is called Ultrademon 38.

343 will never be as good as Bungie. You seem to have forgotten that video games are about gameplay, not story. Story is great, but it should come second.

  • 03.24.2011 5:31 PM PDT

Half-assed? You barely see anything in the game. Only the big events, the fleet showing up, Reach being attack, getting destroyed and few other bits. The vast majority of the time, you feel like taking part of spec ops, which has nothing - or almost - to do with the real deal. It's as if Bungie didn't know how to show the real battle, and decided to show the behind the scenes instead. That's really what Reach feels like, the behind the scenes of the battle of Reach.

  • 03.24.2011 5:32 PM PDT

Mreh.

Edit your title, 343 is considered a singular being, therefore it should be is, not are.

OT: I enjoy Bungie's campaign an characters.

  • 03.24.2011 5:41 PM PDT

Signatures are for squares.

343 has done:

Legends
Waypoint
Evolutions
Cryptum
Encyclopedia
HellJumper
Bloodlines
Reach DLC.


They've had the story bible since 2008. That was three years ago. That's MORE than enough time for them to of "added enough to the bible."

  • 03.24.2011 5:44 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: christbl58
343 will never be as good as Bungie. You seem to have forgotten that video games are about gameplay, not story. Story is great, but it should come second.

How does the story taking a back seat to gameplay act as a premise for 343I not being as good as Bungie? I do not see the logical connection here.

[Edited on 03.24.2011 5:46 PM PDT]

  • 03.24.2011 5:46 PM PDT

Have you seen my mind anywhere? I seem to have lost it...

0x0 x0x 0x0 000 000 x0x 000
x0x 0x0 0x0 0xx 000 0x0 000
x0x x0x x00 0xx 0x0 x0x 0x0

I have seen you future

Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: CTN 0452 9
Reach shows that our beloved Bungie no longer seems to.

All I saw was Bungie trying to give Reach a more fitting showing than TFoR. TFoR's description of the Battle of Reach felt like a rush job.


I'm with you, Cobra, the end of TFoR felt rather rushed and kind of half-assed to me. It wasn't really unenjoyable, but it felt like "Oh, I should probably end the book soon, I guess I can't give much info about Reach's Fall even though the book is called 'The Fall of Reach'".

Really, I got the same feeling about the campaign of Reach. Bungie realized that they needed to put a campaign in the game, so they put a series of missions together that showed off what they could do with the engine.

The missions, for the most part, had no real continuum. It felt like "go here, do this" then "go there, do that." The missions had no particular order, and the objectives had no real bearing on the story. This was one thing that the previous Halo games had that Reach lacked. In the previous games Bungie did a great job of showing how one thing you did led to the rest of the events of the story. In Reach you have a series of semi independent missions.

And SEAL, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on the quality of Legends.

  • 03.24.2011 6:09 PM PDT


Posted by: Evil Johnny
Half-assed? You barely see anything in the game. Only the big events, the fleet showing up, Reach being attack, getting destroyed and few other bits. The vast majority of the time, you feel like taking part of spec ops, which has nothing - or almost - to do with the real deal. It's as if Bungie didn't know how to show the real battle, and decided to show the behind the scenes instead. That's really what Reach feels like, the behind the scenes of the battle of Reach.


Quotes are your friend, Evil Johnny, I don't know who you're addressing your post to. It sounds like it might be me, as I was the one who used half-assed, but I wasn't talking about Halo: Reach, I was talking about the tail end of TFoR.

  • 03.24.2011 6:10 PM PDT

"Find The Bomb?!
Find The Bomb?!
I'm Looking For The Flag!
What The Heck Is Assualt!?"

Halo 3 and Reach both had abysmal storylines, Halo ODST had a pointless story that was tolerable.

I have more faith in books rather than games with good plots.

  • 03.24.2011 6:12 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra
All I saw was Bungie trying to give Reach a more fitting showing than TFoR. TFoR's description of the Battle of Reach felt like a rush job.


Agreed, actually. I think a more fitting title would have been "Halo: Rise of the Spartans" or something of the like. Hell, the "Fall of Reach" wasn't even mentioned until the LAST CHAPTER.


Posted by: Evil Johnny
...You barely see anything in the game...


Are you kidding? You see a 27 KM Covenant Supercarrier, a city being burned after it's residents were evacuated frantically, key locations of ONI strength being wiped out (Did you know that Halsey was offered an office in the Olympic Tower; where Kat was operating from in New Alexandria?) and strong visuals of the planet being jacked up? You see a fragment of the fleet, tons of the invasion parties, and an overwhelming sense that the planet is screwed.

[Edited on 03.24.2011 6:20 PM PDT]

  • 03.24.2011 6:19 PM PDT


Posted by: privet caboose
343 has done:

Legends
Waypoint
Evolutions
Cryptum
Encyclopedia
HellJumper
Bloodlines
Reach DLC.


They've had the story bible since 2008. That was three years ago. That's MORE than enough time for them to of "added enough to the bible."


Um, no they haven't, where did you see that? 343 got the HSB close to either the ZBR for Reach or the release date for it, I can't remember which, but they've only had it for less than a year, at least that's what Bungie said in one of the weekly updates a while back. Bungie only gave up the HSB when they officially became independent.

  • 03.24.2011 6:23 PM PDT

Brains beats brawn get used to it

Fear the Red Comet

Variety is the spice of life.
Long live games.
Death to all fanboys.


Posted by: SoldierOfAthena
Posted by: DecepticonCobra
All I saw was Bungie trying to give Reach a more fitting showing than TFoR. TFoR's description of the Battle of Reach felt like a rush job.


Agreed, actually. I think a more fitting title would have been "Halo: Rise of the Spartans" or something of the like. Hell, the "Fall of Reach" wasn't even mentioned until the LAST CHAPTER.


Posted by: Evil Johnny
...You barely see anything in the game...


Are you kidding? You see a 27 KM Covenant Supercarrier, a city being burned after it's residents were evacuated frantically, key locations of ONI strength being wiped out (Did you know that Halsey was offered an office in the Olympic Tower; where Kat was operating from in New Alexandria?) and strong visuals of the planet being jacked up? You see a fragment of the fleet, tons of the invasion parties, and an overwhelming sense that the planet is screwed.


That's like saying you saw the entire Earth burn when in reality you just saw San Francisco destroyed, Travis Air Force base leveled, maybe a field trip to NASA's Ames Research center And some major fighting in the fields of California's central valley. All of which being in California, and hardly representing the U.S. let alone the entire planet. I mean yes sure we would see a ton of action in those locations...but nowhere else.

  • 03.24.2011 6:28 PM PDT


Posted by: CTN 0452 9
Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: CTN 0452 9
Reach shows that our beloved Bungie no longer seems to.

All I saw was Bungie trying to give Reach a more fitting showing than TFoR. TFoR's description of the Battle of Reach felt like a rush job.


I'm with you, Cobra, the end of TFoR felt rather rushed and kind of half-assed to me. It wasn't really unenjoyable, but it felt like "Oh, I should probably end the book soon, I guess I can't give much info about Reach's Fall even though the book is called 'The Fall of Reach'".

Really, I got the same feeling about the campaign of Reach. Bungie realized that they needed to put a campaign in the game, so they put a series of missions together that showed off what they could do with the engine.

The missions, for the most part, had no real continuum. It felt like "go here, do this" then "go there, do that." The missions had no particular order, and the objectives had no real bearing on the story. This was one thing that the previous Halo games had that Reach lacked. In the previous games Bungie did a great job of showing how one thing you did led to the rest of the events of the story. In Reach you have a series of semi independent missions.

And SEAL, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on the quality of Legends.


The story of the game was all about defending Reach, hmm, whadda ya know, each mission you're doing something to defend Reach or hinder the Covenant's advance. Yes, they are semi independent, but that isn't bad, that is merely how a story about defending a whole planet will turn out.

The only two Halo games that seem to be as connected as you think the whole series is, are Halo 2 and Halo 3. If you think Reach is disjointed with independent events, then you should think CE and ODST are the same way, as their set-up is very similar to Reach.

  • 03.24.2011 6:33 PM PDT
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Posted by: StealthSlasher2
That's like saying you saw the entire Earth burn when in reality you just saw San Francisco destroyed... (etc, etc,)


Did you miss the part where we're in space seeing giant areas getting glassed, and not to mention if you look outside on the map Condemned you see about half the planet glowing like a molten disco-ball?

In the book it's just mentioned "Oh, yeah. The fleet showed up and a lot of people died." Hell, First Strike was more about the Fall of Reach than The Fall of Reach was.

  • 03.24.2011 6:33 PM PDT

Brains beats brawn get used to it

Fear the Red Comet

Variety is the spice of life.
Long live games.
Death to all fanboys.


Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: privet caboose
343 has done:

Legends
Waypoint
Evolutions
Cryptum
Encyclopedia
HellJumper
Bloodlines
Reach DLC.


They've had the story bible since 2008. That was three years ago. That's MORE than enough time for them to of "added enough to the bible."


Um, no they haven't, where did you see that? 343 got the HSB close to either the ZBR for Reach or the release date for it, I can't remember which, but they've only had it for less than a year, at least that's what Bungie said in one of the weekly updates a while back. Bungie only gave up the HSB when they officially became independent.


They officially became independent shortly after the release of Halo 3...Which....was 3 (bordering on 4) years ago.

Question is where did you see 343i getting the Halo story bible seven months ago. I mean even from a logical standpoint it wouldn't make sense for them to get it now. It's a company that is solely dedicated to managing and creating products using the Halo IP. Why would they only get the HSB 3 years after their formation when they have been pumping out Halo content on their own for the last 3 years...

  • 03.24.2011 6:33 PM PDT

Have you seen my mind anywhere? I seem to have lost it...

0x0 x0x 0x0 000 000 x0x 000
x0x 0x0 0x0 0xx 000 0x0 000
x0x x0x x00 0xx 0x0 x0x 0x0

I have seen you future

Posted by: OrderedComa
The story of the game was all about defending Reach, hmm, whadda ya know, each mission you're doing something to defend Reach or hinder the Covenant's advance. Yes, they are semi independent, but that isn't bad, that is merely how a story about defending a whole planet will turn out.

The only two Halo games that seem to be as connected as you think the whole series is, are Halo 2 and Halo 3. If you think Reach is disjointed with independent events, then you should think CE and ODST are the same way, as their set-up is very similar to Reach.

Halo CE's story in a nutshell:

You begin on the Pillar of Autumn in orbit around a mysterious ringworld. You must escape.

The next mission is about how you need to round up survivors from the ship you just escaped from. You find out that the captain has been captured.

You rescue the captain. He tells you that there is a weapons cache on the ring.

You look for a map to find the cache.

Map tells you where to go. You go there. Cortana finds out that the cache is not what he thinks.

You go to stop the captain and BAM! flood. 343 tells you to come with him to stop the flood.

You help 343 recover the index needed to stop the flood.

You try to reunite the index with the core, something 343 has told you must be done, but it's a trap. Stop the ring from killing everything. The final step in this is overloading the PoA's reactors.

First you need the captain's neural implants. Get them.

You have the implants, let's blow this thing and go home.

As you can see from this brief description of every level of Halo CE each mission leads into the next mission, forming a story. ODST had a slightly less linear story, but it was basically about one objective. There are several missions that may seem loosely related, but at the end everything ties together.

Halo Reach didn't have either of these things. Here is it's campaign:

The Covenant is on Reach, warn the UNSC.

Defend SWORD base.

Meet Halsey, learn a little about something you found in the first mission.

Scout the Covenant. Find a small purple city that would leterally be visible from space.

CHARGE! Blow up something.

Go to space to destroy super carrier. This one follows nicely and the objective made sense. You end up falling from orbit.

Land, decide to help evacuate city. Leave city.

Just kidding, stay in the city and blow up some more stuff. Don't really know why, but Kat told you to.

Back to SWORD base. Recover Cortana bit that holds something (not Halo's location, you got that somewhere else already...)

Deliver Cortana lite to the PoA (landed on the planet no matter what other sources have said about this) Deliver Cortana to pelican that could have come down from orbit. Save PoA.

Die.

The closest Reach got to continuum was three missions that led into each other.

  • 03.24.2011 8:20 PM PDT
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Halo = Five great games
But that is all it is. If 343 try to make any more games they will just be milking it dry.

EDIT: I about forgot Halo Wars

[Edited on 03.24.2011 8:35 PM PDT]

  • 03.24.2011 8:34 PM PDT

Signatures are for squares.

Posted by: Sierra 1993DJC
Halo = Five great games
But that is all it is. If 343 try to make any more games they will just be milking it dry.

EDIT: I about forgot Halo Wars


How do you figure?

  • 03.24.2011 8:40 PM PDT


Posted by: StealthSlasher2

Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: privet caboose
343 has done:

Legends
Waypoint
Evolutions
Cryptum
Encyclopedia
HellJumper
Bloodlines
Reach DLC.


They've had the story bible since 2008. That was three years ago. That's MORE than enough time for them to of "added enough to the bible."


Um, no they haven't, where did you see that? 343 got the HSB close to either the ZBR for Reach or the release date for it, I can't remember which, but they've only had it for less than a year, at least that's what Bungie said in one of the weekly updates a while back. Bungie only gave up the HSB when they officially became independent.


They officially became independent shortly after the release of Halo 3...Which....was 3 (bordering on 4) years ago.

Question is where did you see 343i getting the Halo story bible seven months ago. I mean even from a logical standpoint it wouldn't make sense for them to get it now. It's a company that is solely dedicated to managing and creating products using the Halo IP. Why would they only get the HSB 3 years after their formation when they have been pumping out Halo content on their own for the last 3 years...


Ok, so I was wrong about it being after they became officially independent. Well they would obviously have access to it, I just know it resided with Bungie until late last year.

Bungie talked a little about it in one of the weekly updates, sometime around when Reach went Gold, I think, I'm not entirely sure how far back it was, but it was sometime toward the end of the countdown to Reach's release.

  • 03.24.2011 9:27 PM PDT

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