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  • Subject: The Prisoner and the Gravemind
Subject: The Prisoner and the Gravemind

By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.

So ever since Cryptum was released the Universe has seen a hailstorm of threads wondering whether these two characters are one and the same. Looking at the evidence, I believe that it's very likely they are.

The Details:

The description we get of the Prisoner whilst he's inside the capsule is that he is roughly fifteen meters tall and eleven meters wide - pretty darn big. He had four arms, two legs and an insectoid looking head. A long, segmented "tail" attached to the base of the skull, tipped with a meter-long barb. Each hand had three fingers and a central opposable thumb.

The face of a Prisoner has been likened to that of a eurypterid. His head is flattened and has jaw mandibles.

*

Comparison:

So in Halo Legends: Origins, we're treated to a short clip of the Gravemind present during the Forerunner-Flood war. He looks strikingly similar to the one we see in the trilogy (whether these are the same is another debate), but we can note a few similarities to the description in Cryptum.

The Gravemind, you will notice, has a set of jaw mandibles (similar to a Sangheili) and its head does indeed look slightly like an insect's.

Now there's an extensive list of eurypterids that existed in the Silurian era on Earth, I shan't begin to start naming them, however they all have a similar enough appearance to be used as a generalisation for this topic. Upon first examination, a eurypterid looks fairly similar to the Gravemind in terms of structure. But it's very difficult to get a proper look at the Gravemind as we've never actually seen the whole of his body, plus it has been taking on much more biomass from the other Flood forms which distort its form.

Looking beyond mere aesthetics, a truly defining piece of evidence I find is that Mendicant Bias conversed with the Gravemind for 43 years before forcing itself into Rampancy, defecting to the Flood and betraying the Forerunners. I find it to be far beyond coincidence that the test-firing of Installation 05 at Charum Hakkor - and thus the release of the Prisoner - occurred the same year.

So I've sort of got this one-sided argument going on here, it's up to you guys to either support this idea or bring it down with fire.

Discuss.

  • 03.28.2011 10:47 AM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?

So this gravemind is the same flood leader from the precursor era? which explains somewhat why the proto-gravminds look nothing like the gravemind (all just look like blobs) though i know in nature the younger stages don't always look like the adult form.


Interesting. This could also be the "super-gravemind" that was theorized in the beasturiam (spelling).

[Edited on 03.28.2011 11:09 AM PDT]

  • 03.28.2011 11:06 AM PDT

Where does it say Instalation 05 was fired at Charum Hakkor?

  • 03.28.2011 11:16 AM PDT

I think a lot of the Gravemind's lines in Halo 3, or just some of his lines in general, make a whole lot more sense interpreting it this way. Like for instance one of his first lines to Chief when John first enters High Charity in Halo 3 "Child of my enemies why have you come? I offer no forgiveness, the sins of the father pass to his son." or even his iconic "I am a monument to all your sins." line make a lot of sense with the Precursor and Gravemind being the same entity.

  • 03.28.2011 11:41 AM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: OrderedComa
I think a lot of the Gravemind's lines in Halo 3, or just some of his lines in general, make a whole lot more sense interpreting it this way. Like for instance one of his first lines to Chief when John first enters High Charity in Halo 3 "Child of my enemies why have you come? I offer no forgiveness, the sins of the father pass to his son." or even his iconic "I am a monument to all your sins." line make a lot of sense with the Precursor and Gravemind being the same entity.


Don't forget "I have Listened through rock, and metal, and time."

Posted by: Astrogenesis 1
Where does it say Instalation 05 was fired at Charum Hakkor?

It doesn't, we just think so since that is the ring that has the gravemind which should have been destroyed by halo fire.

[Edited on 03.28.2011 11:46 AM PDT]

  • 03.28.2011 11:45 AM PDT


Posted by: grey101

Posted by: OrderedComa
I think a lot of the Gravemind's lines in Halo 3, or just some of his lines in general, make a whole lot more sense interpreting it this way. Like for instance one of his first lines to Chief when John first enters High Charity in Halo 3 "Child of my enemies why have you come? I offer no forgiveness, the sins of the father pass to his son." or even his iconic "I am a monument to all your sins." line make a lot of sense with the Precursor and Gravemind being the same entity.


Don't forget "I have Listened through rock, and metal, and time."



Indeed, or his last line in the series "Resignation is my virtue; like water I ebb, and flow. Defeat is simply the addition of time to a sentence I never deserved... but you imposed." Sounds like some a Prisoner ;) would say if you ask me.

  • 03.28.2011 11:50 AM PDT
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"Time was your ally human. But now it has abandoned you. The Forerunners....have returned. And this tomb... is now yours". - The Didact


Posted by: grey101

Posted by: OrderedComa
I think a lot of the Gravemind's lines in Halo 3, or just some of his lines in general, make a whole lot more sense interpreting it this way. Like for instance one of his first lines to Chief when John first enters High Charity in Halo 3 "Child of my enemies why have you come? I offer no forgiveness, the sins of the father pass to his son." or even his iconic "I am a monument to all your sins." line make a lot of sense with the Precursor and Gravemind being the same entity.


Don't forget "I have Listened through rock, and metal, and time."

Posted by: Astrogenesis 1
Where does it say Instalation 05 was fired at Charum Hakkor?

It doesn't, we just think so since that is the ring that has the gravemind which should have been destroyed by halo fire.


Mendicant Bias number is 05-032.Spark's number is 04-343.

I think it's safe to say Bias commanded 05.

This was noticed by Roberto

  • 03.28.2011 11:50 AM PDT
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"Time was your ally human. But now it has abandoned you. The Forerunners....have returned. And this tomb... is now yours". - The Didact


Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: grey101

Posted by: OrderedComa
I think a lot of the Gravemind's lines in Halo 3, or just some of his lines in general, make a whole lot more sense interpreting it this way. Like for instance one of his first lines to Chief when John first enters High Charity in Halo 3 "Child of my enemies why have you come? I offer no forgiveness, the sins of the father pass to his son." or even his iconic "I am a monument to all your sins." line make a lot of sense with the Precursor and Gravemind being the same entity.


Don't forget "I have Listened through rock, and metal, and time."



Indeed, or his last line in the series "Resignation is my virtue; like water I ebb, and flow. Defeat is simply the addition of time to a sentence I never deserved... but you imposed." Sounds like some a Prisoner ;) would say if you ask me.


Yup and there is no doubt his consiouness survived the Halo ring.He survived the array activation,the prisoner/mind survived a Halo ring on Charum hakkor.

I wonder how we can defeat the gravemind for good,i smell an intresting plot for Halo 4.

  • 03.28.2011 11:55 AM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?

Ok, So lets say the precursor and gravemind are one and the same what does that mean?

And for other americans (we don't use meters) the cage was 49 feet tall and 11 feet wide.

The estimation for the gravemind is about 84 feet, btw

[Edited on 03.28.2011 12:25 PM PDT]

  • 03.28.2011 12:09 PM PDT

Posted by: hotshot revan II


Mendicant Bias number is 05-032.Spark's number is 04-343.

I think it's safe to say Bias commanded 05.

This was noticed by Roberto


2401 Penitent Tangent "commanded" Installation 05

Bias was a Contender class ancilla "designed to control some of the installations,"

"also given the power, in emergencies, to coordinate the entire galaxy's response to attack"

but we all now how that turned out...

[Edited on 03.28.2011 12:22 PM PDT]

  • 03.28.2011 12:22 PM PDT
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"Time was your ally human. But now it has abandoned you. The Forerunners....have returned. And this tomb... is now yours". - The Didact


Posted by: Tom Clarke
Posted by: hotshot revan II


Mendicant Bias number is 05-032.Spark's number is 04-343.

I think it's safe to say Bias commanded 05.

This was noticed by Roberto


2401 Penitent Tangent "commanded" Installation 05

Bias was a Contender class ancilla "designed to control some of the installations,"

"also given the power, in emergencies, to coordinate the entire galaxy's response to attack"

but we all now how that turned out...


One of the 12 rings was his.

2401 was probably Mendicants second in command.

  • 03.28.2011 12:29 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?

I've gone back and looked at all the graveminds lines and i'll post the ones i find interesting in regards to the topic.

"I? I am a monument to all your sins."

"There is much talk, and I have listened, through rock and metal and time. Now I shall talk, and you shall listen."

"...Those who built this place knew what they wrought..."

"...I am a timeless chorus..."

"...Child of my enemy, why have you come? I offer no forgiveness, of father's sins, passed to his son..."

"Do I take life or give it? Who is victim, and who is foe?"

"Resignation is my virtue; like water I ebb, and flow. Defeat is simply the addition of time to a sentence I never deserved... but you imposed."

"From end to end of this galaxy, most are blinded!"

  • 03.28.2011 12:46 PM PDT
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The Death Watch Clan Co-Leader

i think the timeless one merged with the flood giving it its look because when i read the discription of him i think of flood but in a different form like how the flood can change forms. so i think when he merged with the flood he turned into the graveminds current stage

  • 03.28.2011 1:14 PM PDT

By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.

Posted by: OrderedComa
Posted by: grey101
Posted by: OrderedComa
I think a lot of the Gravemind's lines in Halo 3, or just some of his lines in general, make a whole lot more sense interpreting it this way. Like for instance one of his first lines to Chief when John first enters High Charity in Halo 3 "Child of my enemies why have you come? I offer no forgiveness, the sins of the father pass to his son." or even his iconic "I am a monument to all your sins." line make a lot of sense with the Precursor and Gravemind being the same entity.


Don't forget "I have Listened through rock, and metal, and time."



Indeed, or his last line in the series "Resignation is my virtue; like water I ebb, and flow. Defeat is simply the addition of time to a sentence I never deserved... but you imposed." Sounds like some a Prisoner ;) would say if you ask me.


That particular line ("defeat is simply the addition of time") makes me think that we've not seen the last of the Gravemind, he's absolutely right in saying that it's only a matter of time before he returns. The other Installations are bound to have Flood on them, there may be more Shield Worlds out there too in a similar state to what we saw in Halo Wars.

  • 03.28.2011 1:49 PM PDT


Posted by: ajw34307
Posted by: OrderedComa
Posted by: grey101
Posted by: OrderedComa
I think a lot of the Gravemind's lines in Halo 3, or just some of his lines in general, make a whole lot more sense interpreting it this way. Like for instance one of his first lines to Chief when John first enters High Charity in Halo 3 "Child of my enemies why have you come? I offer no forgiveness, the sins of the father pass to his son." or even his iconic "I am a monument to all your sins." line make a lot of sense with the Precursor and Gravemind being the same entity.


Don't forget "I have Listened through rock, and metal, and time."



Indeed, or his last line in the series "Resignation is my virtue; like water I ebb, and flow. Defeat is simply the addition of time to a sentence I never deserved... but you imposed." Sounds like some a Prisoner ;) would say if you ask me.


That particular line ("defeat is simply the addition of time") makes me think that we've not seen the last of the Gravemind, he's absolutely right in saying that it's only a matter of time before he returns. The other Installations are bound to have Flood on them, there may be more Shield Worlds out there too in a similar state to what we saw in Halo Wars.


That's true too, but I think it also makes sense from the context of the Precursor and the Gravemind being the same entity as well.

  • 03.28.2011 9:14 PM PDT


Posted by: hotshot revan II

Posted by: Tom Clarke
Posted by: hotshot revan II


Mendicant Bias number is 05-032.Spark's number is 04-343.

I think it's safe to say Bias commanded 05.

This was noticed by Roberto


2401 Penitent Tangent "commanded" Installation 05

Bias was a Contender class ancilla "designed to control some of the installations,"

"also given the power, in emergencies, to coordinate the entire galaxy's response to attack"

but we all now how that turned out...


One of the 12 rings was his.

2401 was probably Mendicants second in command.


^This.

Or it could be in the case of like if a superior officer comes onboard a lower ranking officers ship. The superior ranked officer has control of the situation and such, but it would still be the lower ranking officer's ship, even if he wasn't in command.

If it's anything like that, then Mendicant may just have the "05" in his number because he was given temporary charge of Delta Halo. I think it's more likely that if it was Delta Halo that he had disappeared with that Tangent is most likely simply next in the chain of command and that it wasn't really his ring per-se.

  • 03.28.2011 9:18 PM PDT

By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.

Posted by: OrderedComa
Posted by: hotshot revan II
Posted by: Tom Clarke
Posted by: hotshot revan II
Mendicant Bias number is 05-032.Spark's number is 04-343.

I think it's safe to say Bias commanded 05.

This was noticed by Roberto


2401 Penitent Tangent "commanded" Installation 05

Bias was a Contender class ancilla "designed to control some of the installations,"

"also given the power, in emergencies, to coordinate the entire galaxy's response to attack"

but we all now how that turned out...


One of the 12 rings was his.

2401 was probably Mendicants second in command.


^This.

Or it could be in the case of like if a superior officer comes onboard a lower ranking officers ship. The superior ranked officer has control of the situation and such, but it would still be the lower ranking officer's ship, even if he wasn't in command.

If it's anything like that, then Mendicant may just have the "05" in his number because he was given temporary charge of Delta Halo. I think it's more likely that if it was Delta Halo that he had disappeared with that Tangent is most likely simply next in the chain of command and that it wasn't really his ring per-se.


Very possible.

Cold Storage has an assigned Monitor for the facility, it may be that Installation Monitors have different ranks themselves. Perhaps Penitent Tangent was created after Bias betrayed the Forerunners too?

So the general consensus is that the Prisoner and the Gravemind are more or less the same entity?

  • 03.29.2011 10:29 AM PDT


Posted by: Astrogenesis 1
Where does it say Instalation 05 was fired at Charum Hakkor?


Bias' I.D. number is 05 -032. Just like how Sparks' was (in the terminals) 04 343. This indicates Bias' Halo was Installation 05.

"...I am a timeless chorus..."

Timeless One....

Obvious referance is obvious.

[Edited on 03.29.2011 11:18 AM PDT]

  • 03.29.2011 11:14 AM PDT

Ya gotta want it!


Posted by: grey101

Posted by: OrderedComa
I think a lot of the Gravemind's lines in Halo 3, or just some of his lines in general, make a whole lot more sense interpreting it this way. Like for instance one of his first lines to Chief when John first enters High Charity in Halo 3 "Child of my enemies why have you come? I offer no forgiveness, the sins of the father pass to his son." or even his iconic "I am a monument to all your sins." line make a lot of sense with the Precursor and Gravemind being the same entity.


Don't forget "I have Listened through rock, and metal, and time."

Posted by: Astrogenesis 1
Where does it say Instalation 05 was fired at Charum Hakkor?

It doesn't, we just think so since that is the ring that has the gravemind which should have been destroyed by halo fire.


It seems that the The Prisoner is PART of the Gravemind. Graveminds have been explained as a combination of hostminds. Whenever enough intelligence is gathered a Gravemind is born.

You see the start of one in Halo:CE when the flood turn Captain Keys into a proto-gravemind. He had enough knowledge to use as a seed and control a small army of flood.

It seems that The Prisoner was intelligent enough to be the "seed" of a very powerful Gravemind with the ability to escape the firing of the halo rings or possibly (this is kind of a big leap here) split off and be a "seed" for several graveminds and transfer its memories to another as soon as one dies.

  • 03.29.2011 12:47 PM PDT

Space. The Final Frontier. These are the voyages of Murphy's Laws on the StarShip Enterprise

Most likely, the gravemind survived through the remaining flood biomass - 7 rings with the flood on, anyone?

Also, the fore-runner remnants could have split up some of a gravemind that they captured, though this sounds unlikely. But I think that Mendicant Bias was in control of rings 1-6, as there were 12 rings. If you were a fore-runner, would you give all the rings to one AI?

  • 03.29.2011 1:01 PM PDT


Posted by: ROBERTO jh

Posted by: Astrogenesis 1
Where does it say Instalation 05 was fired at Charum Hakkor?


Bias' I.D. number is 05 -032. Just like how Sparks' was (in the terminals) 04 343. This indicates Bias' Halo was Installation 05.

"...I am a timeless chorus..."

Timeless One....

Obvious referance is obvious.

Mendicent Bias was a contender class Forerunner AI that was created to aid the Forerunners in their fight against the flood, not to be a monitor of a Halo Instalation.

Anyway, 2401 Penitent Tangent was the monitor for 05.

And I thought that it was the Master Builder that ordered the test firering at Charum Hakkor?

As far as my thoughts are in the gravemind being the prizoner, i think that they are not the same.

There can only be one gravemind at a time, explaining why there was not a gravemind on every instalation.

[Edited on 03.29.2011 1:09 PM PDT]

  • 03.29.2011 1:03 PM PDT

By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.

Posted by: Astrogenesis 1
Posted by: ROBERTO jh
Posted by: Astrogenesis 1
Where does it say Instalation 05 was fired at Charum Hakkor?


Bias' I.D. number is 05 -032. Just like how Sparks' was (in the terminals) 04 343. This indicates Bias' Halo was Installation 05.

"...I am a timeless chorus..."

Timeless One....

Obvious referance is obvious.

Mendicent Bias was a contender class Forerunner AI that was created to aid the Forerunners in their fight against the flood, not to be a monitor of a Halo Instalation.


You realise that a contender-class AI just means it's an AI capable of controlling fleets? That doesn't rule out the possibility of him having the duties of a Monitor too.

Anyway, 2401 Penitent Tangent was the monitor for 05.

Again, it's possible Tangent was created as a replacement for Bias. "Tangent" means to digress suddenly from one course of action and turning to another, so he may have had a different job before he became the Monitor of Installation 05.

And I thought that it was the Master Builder that ordered the test firering at Charum Hakkor?

As far as my thoughts are in the gravemind being the prizoner, i think that they are not the same.

There can only be one gravemind at a time, explaining why there was not a gravemind on every instalation.


Actually, once the Flood reach the Intergalatic Stage they leave the galaxy and create more Graveminds. There is never any explicit infromation regarding the amount of Graveminds there can be at the same time.

All the evidence points towards the Prisoner and the Gravemind being the same person.

  • 03.29.2011 1:24 PM PDT

Never say you're bored. Never say you're satisfied with the world. Never stop doubting or questioning things. Always wonder. Always think. But always take time to drop your guard, you don't have to be smart all the time.

If this is true, then the reason why the captive's information on the Flood drove the humans mad was because the controler of the flood was infact a precursor.

But how could they be the same consiounss? (spelling)

[Edited on 03.29.2011 1:37 PM PDT]

  • 03.29.2011 1:37 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Penitent Tangent
"Not true. This installation has a successful utilization record of 1.2 trillion simulated and one actual. It is ready to fire on demand."

Delta Halo was fired when the Array was activated.

The ring used by MB at Charum Hakkor could not be 05, since that would then be 2 firings as opposed to the one. Unless these "small" firings directed at solar systems are regarded as simulations...

  • 03.29.2011 2:04 PM PDT

http://www.halo-forum.com

I don't understand why people even question the this. It is too heavily implied to be ignored.

  • 03.29.2011 2:18 PM PDT